I (M39) can't believe this is my marriage. Last month I would have bet my life that my wife (W37) was happy and faithful and that I was meeting her needs. I would have been wrong. I was sure she was meeting mine.

We have three healthy, happy kids (B8, G6, G3), we spend a lot of time together because she is a full-time mom and I work from home (actually in an office over our garage which is a separate building). We have more material things than anyone could want including a huge waterfont home - and no debts. We are both fit and active. I always had a stronger sex drive than her but we made it work - I never was unfaithful. She is active in our small community and a hero for organizing a very successful local fund-raising effort which benefitted children. She had all my trust and I felt, I knew, I was the happiest, luckiest man in the world.

That was March. D-Day was April 12th. I am still numb from shock. I have ground some of the enamel off my teeth from stress-related grinding in the last couple of weeks according to my dentist and the muscles in my jaws spasm and send waves of incredible pain though to my ears. I can't turn my head because my neck muscles are in a knot. I sleep little these days and I used to sleep like a baby. I never realized how connected my physiological wellness is to my emotional and mental state.

I have discoveerd a new world filled with ups and downs, outbursts, navel-gazing, staring at inanimate objects, sleeplessness, and worst of all I am questioning everything and everything that meant so much to me. I have gone from one heady extreme down into a pit of darkness that is so deep I am stunned it can exist at all.

We are married now 14 years and I was so much in love with her. I loved looking at her, I loved her smell, I loved what she did and said and I loved it that she chose me 20 years ago when we met. I was her special guy and she let me know it everyday. And shared everything with her from my deepest fears to my ambitions to my likes and dislikes - nothing was sacred. She knows me more than any other person and I know her that way as well.

The event happened like this (although I have read enough now to understand that I need to go back and dig deep and it is not just about the "event"). Last year my wife and I had a fabulous, romantic week in the Caribbean, resting on the beach during the day, talking, reading, walking, exploring together. Holding hands and being intimate. We came back refreshed and the kids were so good with our grandparents. We thought it would help them grow to spend a week away from us, although I remember feeling I wanted to be back home with them even though we called often.

This year we wanted to do it again. But we couldn't make the childcare work. So we decided to each go separately so each would watch the kids while the other recharged. I went with a guy friend the first week. She went with her three sisters the second week. We overlapped two days and one night. During my first week I met an older man (mid 50s) from the States (we are Canadian) and my buddy and I befriended him and we talked, went to listen to bands and walked the beaches together talking. He was going to be there two weeks. Of course I told him about my wife coming down the following week - he (the OM) said he would make sure to keep an eye out for them - sort of fatherly, chaperon-style the way he said it. I feel stupid for making such travel arrangements for her and her sisters to go together.

When she came home we reunited normally, passionately, and talked about the fun we had had. We talked about "him" since he was a common thread. We both said how nice a guy he was, how real, how open. I suspected nothing.

Two weeks later I came home fairly late at night because I play piano in a combo with guy friends every other week and she was asleep when I came in (she normally stays up watching TV those nights). I looked up am email address on her computer that I didn't have to ask a music question and I see "his" name in her contacts. She didn't mention they exchanged email addresses or that there had been email contact. So I looked in her 'Sent Items' and her 'Deleted Items'.

I found it all. Two weeks of full-on romantic love letters. A full-blown EA. The letters also talked about their PA which was an all-night (they never went to sleep) event in bed with candles, kisses and more. I went numb from shock. They both talked openly about how beautiful it was for them and what they loved about it and that they missed each other so etc. I felt sick. I didn't know what to do.

So I woke her up (it was 1am) and I told her I loved her. Then I told her I decided to quit the band because we needed to spend more time together. That I felt distant since our separate vacations. I told her I had decided to cancel two international business trips (one in April, one in May) which would have been three days each because we needed to spend more time together.

Then I told her I knew. At first she denied it but I explained how I knew and what I knew. And then I cried all night until dawn. That was three weeks ago now. Although I have told her I am committed to her and we are soulmates that need to be together forever, I am still heartbroken. I need to discover "why & how" she could do it. I am obsessed with his image, their emails, and all the information I told him about her before he even met her. I was so proud of her.

It seems that love and pain go together. I never realized that before. And I really really love her.

In her emails she told him that she loved him. She told him that she had never felt like that with anyone else. She said she felt like she had know him her entire life. She said that the orgasms she felt with him were the most incredible of her life. I am crushed. She knew him only a few days and basically discarded me. for him. I am now terrified who she could meet tomorrow.

She tells me now that although she said she loved him she was overcome with some chemical soup of romantic dangerous excitement. And she says she had baggage ("transgeneration infidelity") from her parents divorce when she was 13. She says he was a lonely man who needed someone in her life and that she just wanted to nurture him but that it went to far. She says there was not intercourse because she drew the line but that there was everything else. She has told me she liked the control she had with him. We called him to tell him it is over together.

But I am in so much turmoil. I am scared everything is not what it seemed. I question everyting she has said and done now, including who the Dad of my children actually are. And it feels like my head is contaminated with bad thougts and images. I simply don't have the tools to make this go away yet yet and to reclaim my joy.

I will write again. But I need to go to her now. I had to vent to let others know that they are not alone. If this could happen to me, the happy Dad, it could happen to you. Invest in your marriage now. I am going to deposit everything I can give into our love bank. But deep down I am scared this pain will be here forever.

I hope someone *knows* it will go away eventually - even if only "mostly". Someone who has experienced the extreme drop from the highs of life to the depths with the triple betrayal of the PA, the EA and the discovery/confrontation.

Sincerely...swdad

ps. I will share the burden of responsibility if we discover her love bank wasn't full due to our relationship. So far she says she was very happy before she met him. That too is confusing me...

Hello,

I really do not have anything to say except I really feel for your pain. How horrible that you had to read these things. By the way I find it ludicrous best on the emails that she knew when to draw the line and did not have intercourse. It is simply unbelievable based on the emails.

I can imagine how difficult it must be for you that here you did a nice thing by befriending this man and then he betrays your friendship by getting your wife to betray you.

I strongly suggest that you and your wife be tested immediately for STD's. She has shown you that she has lied and betrayed you and kept it a secret so why should you believe anything she says about not having intercourse with this man?
It just does not make sense.

I guess my question would be why would she be willing to risk the life she has over this unless she knew there would be no consequences to her actions. How do you think your wife would have acted if the roles had been reversed?

The bottom line is that it is doubtful that your wife is being honest with you. More importantly you both need counseling immediately to understand the problems to understand why she would betray you and your marriage this way.
I am so sorry for your pain. What happened to you seem so unfair since it was based on your kindness to this OM. Please get checked since you met up with your wife immediately after the OM and get into counseling immediately. Do not accept the rationalizations of your wife. She needs to be completely honest with you and tell you why she was willing to betray you this way so you can deal and hopefully fix the problem. I wish you luck.

Wow. I really feel for you. I just joined today myself. I could have written the first four paragraphs of your story... Except that I walked in on my WH with the OW coworker...In my house. Who I had talked to at the Christmas party. So I understand the feeling like a fool part of it.

I also have jaw pain from clenching my jaw so tightly... I had that in my first marriage as well. I recommend that you go to your dentist and have a splint made to your teeth to combat that. You don't want TMJ. I had oral surgery today for something else but I felt like my jaw was going to lock up and that is not a good feeling...

I also thought that I was so happy and we had it all. Turns out I was wrong. WH says he loves me but I guess he was bored, lonely, and I was working and OW paid attention to him and he went with it. No excuses, he just did it. I also have to start deposits into the Love Bank.

You sound like a loving albeit very hurt and betrayed husband. It doesn't sound like you LoveBust her which is good. I do that alot and I have to learn to stop it.

I wish you luck and prayers for your family. It sounds like you have a really good chance of recovery. Just make sure she goes to counceling with you and is 100% honest. My WH hasn't been and it hurts all over again when you find out the truth from a lie they have been telling you over and over when you ask...

swdad-

You and I have a lot in common. My W of 19 years had an EA when things seemed great at the time. DDay was December/January. We have been in MC (which I highly recommend) and she has yet to articulate anything particularly horrible about our M or her life. She got drawn in by the sad OP's life and his marital strife.

I, on the other hand felt like my world fell apart when I found out. No sleep, no appetite, etc. As you read here you will learn that this is all too common, and normal.

One thing about your situation struck me though. I too began to change plans, including business meetings, etc. to stay home more. Initially, it was because of lack of trust and my being scared about what my W may be doing. By the way, I discovered her A by accident as well. Then I wanted to be home more because of feelings of guilt, like the A was somehow my fault. Those feelings have subsided, but I still stay home more and make a point to talk with my W about her day, the kids, etc. every chance I get.

After more than 3 months, things are really getting better, actually great. This is because that great M I thought we had, we actually did have. We have a long way to go, but I am not as scared as I was 2 months, 2 weeks or 2 days ago. With a good foundation, commitment to communicating and focusing on the greatness of the life you created and still have together, time is a great healer. I hope this helps.

swdad,

I am sorry you are here. I read your post and thought I might reply. I am sure you will receive more responses as time goes on, or as you migrate to GQ section or Recovery.

You mentioned a few things I thought I would explore with you. You mentioned that that your W went with her sisters. Do they know of the Affair? If so when did they learn of it? If they don't how did your W manage to avoid them and any suspicions while spending "all night" with OM?

Next you said a few other things I felt I might offer some thoughts on. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In her emails she told him that she loved him. She told him that she had never felt like that with anyone else. She said she felt like she had know him her entire life. She said that the orgasms she felt with him were the most incredible of her life. I am crushed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you feelings upon hearing this are very normal. What is your W's response to this? Does she understand how you feel upon seeing this? I do believe she felt the way she said, it is the "fantasy" of such an interaction. It is NOT reality and it is part of what we call the "fog". The feelings are REAL, but REALITY is not part of the feelings.

Has she offered you any insight as to why this really happened? Was this a fantasy of hers to have a fling like this? Were there other issues in the marriage? I suspect that the OM was in fact a preditor (sp) and saw a wonderful opportunity to have contact made via you so that your W was very vunerable because when she got there you already knew this man. This is NOT your fault in any way, but it did open a door for your W to walk through, and she should NOT have walked through it, but she did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She knew him only a few days and basically discarded me. for him. I am now terrified who she could meet tomorrow.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your concerns are normal, but I suspect the situation was unique. She will need to offer you some explanations as to why she did this, what she felt gave her permission to do this, and how she plans on protecting YOU and the marriage in the future. This will take time but it must happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She tells me now that although she said she loved him she was overcome with some chemical soup of romantic dangerous excitement. And she says she had baggage ("transgeneration infidelity") from her parents divorce when she was 13.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has she explained the "baggage"? Has she explained what if anything has now changed to make you feel safe in the marriage, never mind loved? Is she going to counseling about this "baggage"?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says he was a lonely man who needed someone in her life and that she just wanted to nurture him but that it went to far. She says there was not intercourse because she drew the line but that there was everything else.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll bet you are having a hard time believing that. I would. I would definitely take bryant's suggest to get tested because even "just" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> oral sex can transmit STD's. I would bet the line was NOT drawn but that she is afraid to tell you. It really doesn't matter the betrayal was pretty complete in any event, and I think your feelings and reaction can attest to that. She needs to know that as well, if you have not told her.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has told me she liked the control she had with him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She only THINKS she was in control. He used your acquaintance to get to her, as sure as I am sitting here. He fed her a line, and she swallowed it hook line and sinker. She was NOT in control, he just let her think she was. But, it does bring up an issue for discussion and reflection. Why does she feel she liked the control? And what does it mean about your marriage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We called him to tell him it is over together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is a good thing. I hope you stressed that absolutely NO CONTACT can take place and I hope she agreed to this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I am in so much turmoil. I am scared everything is not what it seemed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pretty normal, and you are right it is NOT as it seemed. You never dreamed she would do this, but she did. Clearly there are parts of her you never suspected, and perhaps her explanation about her childhood is part of it. But, it does not explain how she gave herself permission to do this and feel it was right. She did feel it was right or she never would have done it. She has to face that part.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I question everyting she has said and done now, including who the Dad of my children actually are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well,if this is bothering you have a DNA test done and put your mind at ease. You will question thing, but understand only time and patience will show if she is sincere and allow you to rebuild the trust in this marriage.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it feels like my head is contaminated with bad thougts and images. I simply don't have the tools to make this go away yet yet and to reclaim my joy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It takes time and patience. You could do some reading. I would recommend Harley's Surviving an Affair. There are other very good books as well. Do some reading.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Invest in your marriage now. I am going to deposit everything I can give into our love bank. But deep down I am scared this pain will be here forever.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good idea, but understand that the choice to have an affair was HERS. The status of the marriage that you two can work on, but she has to address the A and help you rebuild the marriage. The pain will fade with time no matter how things work out.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will share the burden of responsibility if we discover her love bank wasn't full due to our relationship. So far she says she was very happy before she met him. That too is confusing me... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, she may be right, but she needs to understand and then explain to you the why. It may take her awhile, as she is probably in a bit of withdrawal from OM and the fantasy romance she had with him. As time goes on, she may well figure out why and she needs to tell you.

Keep reading and posting. You can recover your marriage, just give it time and patience. I would strongly recommend you find a good pro-marriage counselor to work with.

God Bless

JL

Hi there SW Dad, from a fellow Canadian,

I want you to know that yes, the pain does go away with time and professional help. It will get less intense and less frequent as time goes by if you and your wife are being honest with each other, there is no contact (with the other man) and you have found a good counsellor to help you recover from this. You need a plan and you need to stick to it.

Full recovery can take up to two years, but that does not mean you will be in this pain for all that time. You will be on what we call the roller-coaster: there will be terrible highs and lows but eventually you will stabilize and be stronger.

Your wife needs to find out what in her caused her to make this choice and how she can ensure it will never happen again. She needs to be in individual counselling. I would recommend you both be in marriage counselling as well to determine how communication between you failed.

I want you to know that on D-Day and in the painful months following, I thought it was impossible to recover our marriage. But it can be done and we are doing well. In fact, in spite of the pain, I would not want to go back to the marriage I had just before D-Day. I'm amazed I can say that!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And yes, get yourselves tested for STD's immediately...

I hope I've helped in some way. I wish you the very best in recovery. By the way, I think you are in recovery and there are many seasoned veterans over in the recovery forum who have been of invaluable help to me. Come on over!!!

God bless,
Nat

<small>[ May 06, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: I'm Natalie ]</small>

I saw your story and it was like living my own. Your situation and reactions have been like a carbon copy of my own. It is really heartbreaking to find out that the person you trust the most in the entire world is capable of sinking so low and dragging you into the mud pit. I have to ask something that I asked myself, do you really know your wife like you think you do?

In my case, I sent my WW on a vacation to visit family overseas. It was during the summer and I was tied up meeting a work deadline. I thought it was unfair for her and my children to not go anywhere because of me. Our story also has a considerably older fellow. It made me sick to think that she would go for a guy who is close to 2 decades older, sick, without a home of his own, twice divorced,..... It really destroys your self-steem and sense of purpose. But somehow, it is up to us to find a way to survive for the good of the children. We also have three little ones. I really feel for you, I have been there and life has not been the same since.

You said she went with two sisters. Have you talked to them? How could she do that if she was with her sisters? In my case there was a sister-in-law of her who drove her to meetings, who was her accomplice. They swore each other secrecy but the truth came out. They both gave different accounts when confronted. You need to find out so you know who are friends and enemies to your marriage. If the sisters knew and did not do anything or turned the other way. They do not need to be in your life and you know your children should not spend much time with them.

<small>[ May 07, 2004, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Why-me? ]</small>

Hi all,

Wow I don't know where to start. First I want to thank each of you for taking the time to reply. I read every word and your understanding and support is so appreciated. It has given me some valuable new perspectives to consider and discuss with my spouse. Tnank you so much.

After reading your posting my specific replies to your comments and questions are:

(BryanP): My wife and have have walked through exactly everything that happened during the PA to understand the STD risk. Together we called a hotline here and were told we were "low risk". She seems so sincere and I have asked her to describe it in detail a number of times. She is 100% consistent and gives me a lot of detail of every play be play. I need to know even though it is painful. Still, we are going to get fully tested together now - and again in 3 months. Since she only used her hands on him and washed afterwards and they only kissed on the mouth and caress-kissed each other on the face, neck and chest we seem to avoided the worst risks. I realize this is hard for you to believe but she is very capable of drawing that line especially since she wasn't in full EA at that point. Thanks for your comments!

(Diz): My dentist has made me an upper-jaw mold I can wear when I sleep to avoid grinding. I am so sorry that you have had a DDAY-2 and that he hasn't shared 100% in your journey to understand. How painful fo r him to violate your house - I felt some of that myself simply from the fact that she used her phone and the computer to communicate with her lover from our house which was supposed to be our special sanctuary - I really feel for you for that. I had to delete every email and ask her to please throw out the clothes she had worn for him (she did). It might sound childish but it did help me a bit and know I won't see those clothes on her which would remind me of it all over again. If there is something that keeps reminding you of it in your own house I recommend you try to get rid of it asap. I don't know much about these things but I also think he needs to know how important it is to you that he accompanies you to MC/therapy so that you can have a common understanding. I wish you luck in your quest to get on the same path with him. I am sending positive thoughts for you two. Thanks for your comments!

(Maduro): Your experienced really resonated with me too. A bit eerie. I guess misery likes company a bit - actually that is a bit negative - it's more that your story is so similar That I know that I am not alone and the world is not conspiring against me - it is more that this experience is a part of life that can happen if the right (wrong) ingredients are put together. I am starting a theory on this I will post separately. Anyway, as in your case, my wife was also drawn in by the "sad-story" of the OM and wanted to help - she often sees only the good in people and is a bit naive actually. She obviously had a problem drawing the line in her personal relationships which we have now analyzed in depth. In the past she had gotten close to people but there was never any other affair (I believe this). I also am not sleeping and eating much. She has asked me to wake her when I wake so she can tell me she loves me and that she wants to be with me forever and when I am having a hard time in my head, I do, and it really helps me when I wake her. It brings us closer together when that happens actually. I also have a similar desire to never leave home since she is home full-time. Since I work from home and am always around and see her and the kids during the day as we go about our day I don't really much guilt for being away but I simply don't want to travel for a business meeting yet because on my last one she was on the phone with the OM for 4 hours. The fact that part of that particular call was using the cordless phone in our hot tub also really hurt since that was our special place to decompress together. One thing I have been doing is to repeat everything she did with the OM in order to 'reclaim' it back from him. I don't know if this is the right thing to do but it helps me and the alternative of avoiding those things is long-term more destructive I think. It was really valuable to me to hear that things can be great after three months. It hasn't been a month yet for me so it helps me to see down that road at what is possible from a credible source that has experienced a very similar situation to mine. I too am amazed at some of the positive potential I already see and sometimes things can be great even now. But I am still swinging around from sadness to hope etc. That said I am fairly confident I can stabilize too as you did. I will imprint on your experience a bit to envision something similar for me/us. Thank you so much for posting.

(Just Learning):
We wifes two sisters don't know of the affair. They know she stayed up to talk with some of the other guests gathered around some beach loungers. She was with others including the OM in the morning and the OM said some of them had stayed up all night talking and to watch the sun come up. I don't think they suspect anything (but they might). They know my wife spent alot of time talking to him (as did I and they) she told 'nothing happened it was great talking and seeing the sun come up'. She lied to them too but actually I am glad they don't know. I don't want my kids to ever know and the fewer that know the better.

You suggest the OM was a predator. I think that is possible too. Actually I felt betrayed by him as well in this. I actually trusted this guy and he has our phone number and address and email addresses and everything. I will be vigilant to ensure the NC rule is followed. When we called him he tried to tell her not to regret anything that happened. We shut him down and told him about the no contact rule. And she does tell me she regrets everything that happened.

I liked your line about the feelings being real but reality is not part of the feelings. That coupled with the idea that courtship is a time of maximum deception between humans is something that helps me cope. I remind myself frequently that our enduring love is so much more than what they experienced together in that 'fog' as you put it.

Regarding the couselling for baggage, we are not currently doing that. We want to finish the books and get to a stable state first before we dig into the her "baggage". She thinks it is her parent divorce (her mother was manic and her aunt came to live with her family to help during her mother's depression. Her father had an affair with he aunt (her mother's sister) and they left together. Her parents divorced and her father and her aunt are married now for 24 years - still happily they claim. This happened when she was 13). From some of the things we have read it is possible to have a subconcious vulnerability to an affair if your parents had a traumatic separation at such an age. Regarding you point about her thinking she was in control I totally agree. I am not sure how to break that to her (I have to be caureful there I think) but I plan to try. As for reading she has read Harley and Chalmers Surviving an Affair. She has pledged to follow the Rules in the book, as will I. We also found the book After the Affair by Janis Spring really useful and read it together. We plan to read His Needs Her Needs but we are spending too much time talking to read very quickly. Tonight we are going out together and have a babysitter arranged - it doesn't feel right for me to pretend we are a normal couple yet I know we have to try. Thanks so much for your comments they are so rational and I really benefitted from them.

(I'm Natalie): Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I will try move over to the recovery forum (I'll go have a look this weekend). I still am in shock and numb though and this is my first attempt to communicate to anyone about what happened to us, to me. Your post really helped me because I was convinced I will be thinking to myself that I will never get over this, that I am broken. It helps to hear from a person who knows what that is like that it can/will end. I am committing to that and will focus on it. Regarding your comment that things are better - congratulations - that is major for you. I told my wife that even if things are on day better I don't ever want to hear any justification or positive reflection on this painful event for us because there was a better path to get to a better marriage - one based on communication, honesty and openness and there was no good reason to not persue that every day of ou marriage to get to that point on that better path. That said, you and I are on this alternate path in our respective marriages and I realize we can and should make the best of that - and that it could (should?) mean a stronger happier marriage. I will look forward to being where you are now. Thanks for reminding me to focus on that and not all the negative obsessing that I have been doing lately about the details I learned.

(Why-me): Wow. I hope it didn't bring it all back for you. Well, I know my wife better than anyone on the planet. Do I know her as well as I thought I did? No. I would have bet my life she would not have had an affair and I would have been wrong. We were so happy. Or at least I thought we both were. I have yet to find out anything significant that would have driven her to this from our marriage and life together. That is why, as you know, it is so dis-orienting. As for the older guy yes he was clearly 15 years older and I am fit and athletic. That is hard to take too and my self-esteem and self-worth has taken a beating. But I think it is easy to be really hard on your self - almost too easy actually. I am starting to pull out of my dive. It is eerie that you have actually gone through a very similar life experience. I also trusted my wife to go on vacation herself and that is when it happened. I wonder if being in another country can make them drop their defenses somehow - certainly it enabled opportunity for a secret infidelity. I am so lucky it was only a single night (I was able to independently confirm that it was the last night they were there) - I can only imagine (and I do) what they would have done on the second night. As for the sisters I haven't been able to detect if they know. I suspect not but they may well be in cahoots. I feel they should come to me to tell me if they know but its been three weeks and nothing so I really need to probe more there. Good tip. The challenge is not to tell them if they don't know because I don't ever ever want my kids to learn about this - they may view marriage differently. I have been soo careful to contain everything when they are around and as you know that is very hard to do. Once I caught myself being a bit strict (I actually told her I would not read her a story that night because she put tape on her wall which peeled her wallpaper - and reading to my kids is so therapeutic for me) with my 5 year old who was just being a 5 year old and that hurts - I don't ever want any of this pain to project on them now or later in their lives. Just to circle back - you ask a good question - do I know her like I think I do. I really wee her differently now, I guess. I never knew she was capable of such dishonesty. She secretly created a second email account (on hotmail) and I never even knew that was something she would/could do. She was text messaging him and she never in her life text messaged me. She learned how to delete callerid history too. It was like she was someone else for those 2.5 weeks and it still freaks me out. I certainly didn't know she could "be" with me while having a secret lover that she emailed, phoned while I was out and fantasized about. And I didn't know she could sleep with a stranger after only chatting with him for a few hours. Sigh. Well, I hope to also learn that she can complete this journey of self-discovery/improvement and commitment to the marriage with me. I will trust but validate from now on I guess. My life is now on a different path. I hope it ends up somewhere as good or better and I realize I am not the only one in control of that. Thanks for your support and sharing you similar experience.

Thank again, eh.

Sincerely...swdad

swdad-

Thanks for the thanks. I read your reply to everyone. In one place you said "It was like she was someone else for those 2.5 weeks and it still freaks me out." Well said.

In a very recent counseling session with MC the counselor opened with, "How are things?" and I said "Things have remained calm in our house. I feel like I am sitting next to my W again and not next to that other person that took over her mind and body for a time."

This illustrates why the genesis of the problem is so important- to get to know that other person so that they don't come around any more.

This will get better for you!

swd,
call me a cynic if you want to but i would insure that things are what you're being told they are by installing key logger software on your computer and a voice activated tape recorder, (cheap and easy to install form radio shack) on your telephone. further, i would check her cell phone bills from as far back as after she returned from her vacation up until right now and in the future. knowing...for sure...is alwayd better then not knowing...in my opinion.
coach

swdad,
Yes, when I saw your post it was like seeing my story all over again. I used to travel several times a year due to work. For sometime, I also was a consultant for the government and had to travel twice a year to Washington. Since she has always been the jealous type with a suspicious mind, to her those two trips a year were a sign that I may be seeing someone. I even tried to return in hurry the same day that the meeting ended and at the most I was gone for two days. I quit that to avoid problems with her and to let her know one more time that I was devoted to her and nothing was more important, altough the extra money was nice for things we wanted to do. I on the other hand have been very trusting in spite of some things that happened while we were dating and were engaged.

On this trip she was supposed to relax and spent time with family. She was there 1 1/2 months and even paid extra to extend her airline tickets for 1 week and she wanted longer but there were not flights available because of the time of year. As fas as anyone else being involved, I found out that one sister-in-law of hers and her closest friend knew and were helping her and lied to me (they were not very good liers). It hurt me because they were friends to me and I trusted them, but in talking to them I got a lot of information some of which pointed to me how creative she could be. She also told a sister who apparently got upset at her and I actually listened on the phone when she was repriminding her about her actions. I also talked to the other man and I gradually found out that I determined that she did not tell me the whole truth and I have stopped asking because I understand she is protecting herself and protecting others.

Like you, I am also health consious. I have been doing weight lifting for years and practive martial arts. Then, I find out how different this character is that it made me puke. I used to be very confident and I believed I could do anything I wanted to do. That of course changed and now I am barely hanging on to my job. Living day to day.

It has been more than a year since discovery, but I still have nightmares and I wake up upset and agitated. It has been very disappointing to find out that the person that you marry is not the person you thought she was. My dilema has been that I thought I was very careful in chosing a partner. I never would have married a woman who had been with someone else, just as I never have been with anyone else but her. We are from a conservative culture. She has a lot of emotional baggage and a result of that is a terrible temper and a negative outlook on things. I used to say, "well, she can be angry or be this way or that way, but she has been morally pure and I love her for that." Now, I feel I lost that person because some predator acted on her.

I find my strength in my children and they are my motivation to go on. Otherwise, ...? My suggestion is to take everything with a grain of salt. Somehow, make conversations with her sisters about her. If she has close friends, she may have told one of them. I do not believe in spying like others suggest. In fact, she did not use computer, phone, etc. at home to maintain contact. From her friend, I found out she was using calling cards and calling from her friend's home.

<small>[ May 10, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Why-me? ]</small>

Hi SWDad,

How are you doing today? I am so sorry for all the pain you're experiencing. Hang in there. You're doing all the right things. You said:

I told my wife that even if things are on day better I don't ever want to hear any justification or positive reflection on this painful event for us because there was a better path to get to a better marriage - one based on communication, honesty and openness and there was no good reason to not persue that every day of ou marriage to get to that point on that better path.

Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. There were so many other options available to our spouses. This one was the most hurtful... the worst possible choice. I will also never be thankful that my H chose that path. And he, like your wife, feels a huge amount of regret and remorse.

I used to think that the worst role to play in this drama was that of the BS. I don't think so anymore. Dont' misunderstand me: the pain on D-Day was unbearable, of course. But my integrity is intact. I can look at myself in the mirror and in my children's eyes and not feel terrible shame. And I can go to bed at night knowing that I didn't cause this level of pain to the person I love the most. My husband feels all of that. I would not want to be in his position.

Thanks for reminding me to focus on that and not all the negative obsessing that I have been doing lately about the details I learned.

SWDad, obsessing is a very normal thing to do at this stage. I think it is part of processing the affair... to get it out of your system.

do I know her like I think I do. I really wee her differently now, I guess. I never knew she was capable of such dishonesty.

I remember this feeling very well. In fact, at times, I felt that I was lying next to a complete stranger. What helped me to overcome this feeling was to remember that my H's affair was never about ME. He never meant to hurt ME. He never meant for me to find out. He gave himself permission to do this because he thought I would never find out and be hurt by it. Having seen the terrible damage it did, I'm convinced he will never make that choice again. It sounds like your wife may feel that way, too.

In our case, the affair was also about unmet needs (on both sides), plain old selfishness and the fact that my husband is a human being who made a terrible mistake.

Tonight we are going out together and have a babysitter arranged - it doesn't feel right for me to pretend we are a normal couple yet I know we have to try.

Great idea! It is important to have some fun. To replace these awful recent memories with some good ones. Hope you enjoyed yourselves!

Take good care,
Nat

Why-Me?: I also hurried back from trips to be with her and the kids. Being away on those trips was the sacrifice for working from home and I always thought how supportive of her to hold the fort. I would arrange for my parents and sitters to assist at bedtime or if she needed to attend a community meeting or one of her weekly exercise classes. As of D-Day I haven't travelled. Franky I am fearful to go anywhere now. But I will go in a month or so because I need to in order to maintain my job and I also need to force myself to trust again. I know it will be very hard. I also am not crazy about spying so I will go with a long-term trust-but-validate approach. I am not very happy that I feel right now that I have to pursue the validation step and I feel my life is a bit sadder / pathetic for it. I too wake up in the night due to nightmares and am agitated, upset and anxious. I have noticed I sometimes talk to myself (especially one-word swear outbursts which disturbs me). I suspect this could be with my for years. I feel I am a different person now and I do see her differently too. I still love her, of course, yet I feel in some way she has been deflowered which is so tragic. I always thought of her as having an innocent, open, almost naive view of the world and how I loved it that she communicates honestly, caringly and openly with everyone she met. Now I am scared of that. I do suspect he was a predator too. I see two options a) she changes how and where she interacts with people she meets or b) she meets another predator who appeals to her caring side and she falls from grace again. Harley is about pursuing option a) and although part of me will feel comforted that she will change another part of me sees that it will kill a part of her I really valued. Catch-22. I was so amazed at how easy it was to hide this from me. I still plan to sync up with her sisters to see if the dishonesty has stopped. I suspect it has because she is so detailed and so consistent. Like you I am feeding on the honest love from my children right now. But I know I need to get that from her. It is so tragic that it will take years to get back to where we/I was, if ever. I can see that our marriage will be stronger afterwards. But I suspect when I am alone I will still shed a tear quietly to myself that she will never see. I so hope I am wrong and I am also aware that this could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Time will tell. If you were a social drinker I would buy you a beer, why-me. Let's keep our fingers crossed for our happiness to improve.

I'm Natalie: Thanks for checking in. It means a lot to me to know there are people like yourself that know my secret story and send their support to me this way. Your comment about her pain resonated with me. I think long-term it will be hard for her to carry her mistake and I will watch out for signs of depression. Your words describing that she never *meant* to hurt me are so helpful. I will tell her that if she has a low. She was in a different world, away from me and she was thinking about herself and this other person, not me. There is some solace in that. I do believe she would not do it again now that she knows the pain she feels and the pain I feel. You are so right we have to create post-D-Day memories - all the ones before are a bit tainted now for some reason (Ilook at picture of myself before D-Day and I think - you were an idiot trusting her to a vacation with her sisters without ensuring the Love Bank was 150% and she had the tools to spot predators). By the way - I always used to tell her "Men are trouble - especially if they think like I do" and we would laugh. Sigh. Anyway, we did have a great night out together and frustrated the restaurant staff because we were so slow talking from 7pm until 11pm and not even looking the menu for an hour. I also made a special effort on Mother's day starting with me and the kids waking her up with breakfast in bed and handmade artwork and cards singing Happy Mother's Day To You a la Happy birthday. I focussed all day on how she is such a great Mom to them. It is true. Life is complicated. Sigh... I am starting to feel older and melancholy - somebody kick me outside for a game of soccer or hockey or such in the sun.

Sincerely...swdad.

ps. I call our situation 'The Perfect Storm' since it seems so many factors contributed to our affair. Does anyone else see things that way? On the bad side there is no one 'quick fix' but on the good side there is no single point of blame. Of course she made the mistake to do the PA and AE deed and to try to hide it from me but there were many factors that 'set her up' too, in a way. Anyone else rationalizing things to themselves in that way as well?

Dear SWDad,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, we did have a great night out together and frustrated the restaurant staff because we were so slow talking from 7pm until 11pm and not even looking the menu for an hour. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and your wife are simply amazing me! That is such a fantastic sign of a good recovery!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also made a special effort on Mother's day starting with me and the kids waking her up with breakfast in bed and handmade artwork and cards singing Happy Mother's Day To You a la Happy birthday. I focussed all day on how she is such a great Mom to them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your care and compassion for her will do wonders to help rebuild her self esteem and your love for each other. I am very touched that you could put aside your own pain so early in recovery to do this for her. Another great sign!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not very happy that I feel right now that I have to pursue the validation step and I feel my life is a bit sadder / pathetic for it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try to think of it as the trust-building exercise that it is. Everytime you find nothing suspicious, the trust is being rebuilt a little at a time. While I don't obsess, I still check to "validate", as you say, every once in a blue moon. Does wonders to reassure me and knock down some of those walls!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel I am a different person now and I do see her differently too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't let this event in your marriage (the affair) have that much power. It does not define you or your wife or your marriage. Your wife is a human being who made a terrible choice/mistake.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I suspect when I am alone I will still shed a tear quietly to myself that she will never see </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.

Won't this interfere with the emotional intimacy of your marriage? I understand your intentions are good--you're trying to spare her your hurt. But I'd look at this as an opportunity for her to comfort and reassure you...as an opportunity to strengthen the bond and intimacy between you. Don't deprive yourselves of that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I always thought of her as having an innocent, open, almost naive view of the world and how I loved it that she communicates honestly, caringly and openly with everyone she met. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can be honest, caring and open and learn to protect her marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am starting to feel older and melancholy - somebody kick me outside for a game of soccer or hockey or such in the sun. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exercise is a great coping mechanism!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ps. I call our situation 'The Perfect Storm' since it seems so many factors contributed to our affair. Does anyone else see things that way? On the bad side there is no one 'quick fix' but on the good side there is no single point of blame. Of course she made the mistake to do the PA and AE deed and to try to hide it from me but there were many factors that 'set her up' too, in a way. Anyone else rationalizing things to themselves in that way as well?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't say you are rationalizing--I'd say you are beginning to empathize--to understand how she could have done this. That is very compassionate. Good for you! This doesn't usually happen until much later in a successful recovery!!!

Oh my, look at the time! I've got to pick up the kids from school!

Have a good one, SWDad!!!

Nat

Hey SWDad--how are things going? Hope your absence is a good sign...

Natalie

Hi Natalie,

Well I guess I am in recovery now. I am finally able to sleep through the night. I haven't shed a tear (OK, "cried") for a week now.

Some thoughts and things that happen between us though are incredible tough to take, But I have been able to handle them well in retrospect. For example, last week she didn't want to make love for two nights in a row and I started questioning things and didn't sleep well. I do know that I don't want her to ever do anything she wasn't 100% up to so while on one hand I am happy to have her open admission on the other hand I wish it was otherwise. However that hasn't happened since.

Another 'event' that sent me reeling was her recounting has she undressed her lover and while she described it to me she laughed about him flipping out of his underwear when she pulled it down. I was in shock at how insenstive that was for her to describe to me and even more so while laughing as she remembered it. That was hard to watch for me. And it made me realize that we will probably always see the PA completely differently. I am a bit sad for that.

But it does seem that life goes on. She otherwise does appear so genuine and dedicated to us and she is investing a lot in reading about affairs and soul-searching and talking with me. And we have done a few things that are normal like take the kids to soccer and have coffee together in the morning before work etc etc. I am trying hard to add to the love bank and avoid withdrawing. It's kind of scary to feel you need to keep the love bank balance high or else - it feels like that is hanging over me actually. But fair is fair I guess - that responsibility was always there its just that now we know what can happen if we don't invest in the love bank. Of course she says that would never happen again and she would talk with me about needs etc now that we know the pain of PAs and EAs but there is still some fear I guess.

Natalie, did your spouse ever give you an apology that you felt was 100% of what it should be? I can't say that I feel I have one yet. I will have to tell her I need a better apology if I don't get one that feels better in the next month (it's only been 5 weeks since D Day at this point).

Anyway, I better get back to work.

Sincerely...swdad

ps. How do you get to be a full status 'member' on this board?

At least she is staying with you. Work it out. My wife is in an affair and has nothing on her mind but divorce. I tried everything.

Your member status will change after you get 35 or 40 posts - I can't remember exactly.

I hope you continue and have a complete recovery.

This does take time, there is really no way to rush it.

SS

Hey SWDad,

I'm glad you're doing better and the whole thing is a little less raw and painful. It does get less and less painful and you will think of it less and less as time goes by.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> last week she didn't want to make love for two nights in a row and I started questioning things </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you ask her about this, SW? You said in your first post that her sex drive wasn't as high as yours so this really isn't a change, right? I think men take a lower sex drive in their women very personally. I know my husband did. There can be many reasons why she wasn't in the mood. Maybe her cycle. Maybe she isn't feeling worthy right now. I'd bet that she isn't rejecting you , though... Talk about it. It'll help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another 'event' that sent me reeling was her recounting has she undressed her lover and while she described it to me she laughed about him flipping out of his underwear when she pulled it down. I was in shock at how insenstive that was for her to describe to me and even more so while laughing as she remembered it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any chance she was laughing in ridicule? Did you tell her how this made you feel? Did you give her an opportunity to respond to your thoughts and feelings about this? She may have been surprised to hear that you thought she viewed this event positively...Just my thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's kind of scary to feel you need to keep the love bank balance high or else - it feels like that is hanging over me actually. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can't live this way. Needs have nothing to do with someone's choice to have an affair. There are ALWAYS other alternatives...communication with your spouse being right up there. Divorce was another option available to both of our spouses. Yes, unfulfilled needs can make a marriage more vulnerable to an affair. But, heck, my needs were nowhere near being met and I did not have an affair! Someone here (Pepperband?) once put it this way...A man (or woman) may be hungry and yet choose not to betray himself and others by stealing food. Does that make any sense?

Your wife has to find out why she made this choice and how she can prevent it from happening again. She has to find that hole in her character that lead her to give herself permission to do what she did. Is she going to persue individal counselling?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Natalie, did your spouse ever give you an apology that you felt was 100% of what it should be? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. I expected tears and that is just not him. But he continues to apologize. And I continue to forgive. Everytime an aspect of his betrayal crosses my mind, I choose to forgive. I believe forgiveness is an ongoing process...not something done once and for all.

I did ask him to write out all his transgressions (in excruciating detail) against me, his children (risking their happiness and security), his parents, my parents, the other woman's husband, the OW, himself and God. I also asked him to write out the effects of the affair had on me...all the losses that are described so well in the book "After the Affair". This really helped us both. I needed to hold him accountable and I needed to know he had heard me...that he had a good idea what this had done to me. I firmly believe that this alone would prevent him from ever going down the affair route again.

There is a very good section in Dave Carder's "Torn Asunder" about the value of not protecting WS's from the pain of the BS. Hard to believe, but there is a purpose to that pain!

You sound like a great guy, SW. I wish you well.

Natalie

swdad:

After d-day, and at the point where we (my W & I) had determined we we're going to try and work on our M to recover it, I demanded two things from her (an apology and remorse). Looking back, that was stupid of me. I think it may have hindered some of our progress. We've recently had an incident with the OM & his W that has brought my W & I closer.

While I believe her first apology was true, the recent one was more heartfelt. I came to realize that I can't control others (just myself and how I react to them). It's still hard for me not to be the fixer or give answers and direct others (in this case my W) but I think you can get my picture from this. In other words, be yourself, work on yourself, be there for your W and keep the lines of communication open.

(Also, my status-jr member- changed at my 30th message. I think it was right around the 30th day I was on this board too, so they might be connected?)