WW and OMs affair has been exposed over 5 weeks ago. I now know most of the details, basically by asking my WW. I never called OMW. After I exposed everything, my wife and OM talked. He has supposedly told his wife that he was having an A (i believe this), but she didn't want to know anything about it. OMW has chosen to bury her head in the sand and not address the infidelity. OMW does NOT know that her husband's affair partner is my W, his ex-secretary. I feel that this is important since they work at the same company, although different offices. W insists there has been NC for 3 weeks now. Here's my dilemma: Do I still call OMW and reveal that her husband and my wife are the affair partners or do I let it go. I'm concerned that if I do call OMW, it will give OM an excuse to call my wife and re-establish contact. Any ideas??? Not sure what to think.

If contact has ended, and the infidelity has been revealed....adding details is not in your best interest. The purpose of exposure is to end affairs....as long as your wife is doing that....then it is not your job to get his wife's head out of the sand...nor will it benefit you. IF however, contact resumes....then yes, a conversation with his wife may be in order. Good Luck

Starfish....isn't that just one big leap of faith??? That WW has stopped contact??? Actually, I didn't mention this but there will be times when OM will have to call WW at work in order to talk to my WWs current boss. I guess she can always ahve OM call direct.

I thought that if OMW knew the identity of her husband's affair partner, they might be more pressure on OM to stay away....please advise

IGP: If you do not trust these two to keep N/C (except for what you have agreed to), then it certainly will be helpful to have OMW know so that she can police her end.

In my case without that, I don't know what I'd have done.

Though if you have regained her trust you might not need to, or if you think that it could hurt her career or get her fired you might not want to. Also, you have to weigh if you believe that the OM actually told his W or if he said he did and she "just looks like she has her head in the sand." If she still doesn't know, then that might be why it looks that way. Good luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Starfish....isn't that just one big leap of faith??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes and No. Do you have extraordinary precatautions in place for your wife to avoid her former lover? Accountability for time and money? Passwords to all of her email accounts? Cell phone records? Bills? Did she write a no contact letter. If not, then that's your next concentration of effort.

However, IF all that is in place, and you find out contact has resumed (truth has a way of surfacing) THEN contact the OMW. Until you have proof of renewed contact (and my guess is his wife knows who it is BTW) then help build trust by not pursuing exposure further. When a spouse is trying to end an affair....that isn't the time for exposure. When they AREN'T trying to end the affair is when your motivation for exposure is considered just. Right now...it will look vindictive and controlling....and is likely to backfire. Is that what you want?

Now you know I am one of the BIGGEST advocates of exposure on this board...but it must be done with finesse, and the right motivation. So hold your horses a little bit....and just keep your eyes open. You'll know.

IN great pain,

First, my regrets for your pain and situation. Never want a new member to have to come here, but happy that you've found help in your time of need.

Next, NOT meaning to be difficult here, but I'd appreciate a little clarification on something that you wrote Star*Fish. (I'll admit I am a lot tired and a bit cranky as I read this so please bear with me).

You wrote exposure should be avoided as long as a WS is "trying to end the Affair."

Could you please let me know what you believe involves " TRYING to end the Affair"? [Thank you]

It seems that either one IS involved in an A OR one is out of and done with an A. I don't see a lot of middle ground. Just not sure what Trying to get out of one involves. At least to my way of thinking that means it is still ongoing and as a result needs to be outed.

Seems that if one is STILL in the trying stage then a little (or perhaps a lot) of Exposer could be just the ticket to speeding the decision process along.

Then again I guess I keep hearing those words of a little green mentor named YODA, "Do or DO Not.......there is NO Try!"

..................................................

Next IGP, Also have a big issue with the fact that your getting your information about what this OMW knows OR doesn't know from the OM (as well as a 3 week post withdrawn WW). I don't mean to burst a bubble or anything but do you really think the 2 of them are going to just "voluntarily" give you all the answers? That you are really at this point going to get the full and honest truth. (Is it possible? Sure, but not real realistic.) Its more likely they are getting their stories straight to minimize the "damage" as much as they can.

On the other hand, I do understand your want and even your NEED at this point to Believe your WW. It is a part of the process that most (if not all) BS's go through. Believe me, I've been there too. So this is in no way an attack or even a judgement. More of an observation.

Unfortunately, to them, you are someone whom needs to be controlled. As far as their A goes, you are an outsider and the enemy and they will do anything they feel necessary to protect their "fantasy world." Even IF (?) it is truly over, neither one of them wants to face reality and face the music for what it is they've done. Remember, that they got away with a Whole Lot for quite some time. They sure as heck don't feel like facing the consequences now.

Believe it or not they would (both)still lie to you, even now. (I know, I know, what a shocker).
The OM cause he doesn't give a crap about you and your wife cause she is still waaay tooooooo fresh from the A to be willing to be completely honest with you. Bottom line is the 2 of them are still trying to protect their own AS*ES! So they can neither afford to be truthful with you.

Please at this stage of the game you cannot afford to take ANYTHING at face value. So please be smart and don't! Question, question and question some more. If it feels wrong (on any level) it most likely is.

In addition, as far as renewed contact........the best help you can have is another set of eyes watching the 2 of them. You know you need all you the help you can get. He will be less likely to contact your W if he knows that he can be busted just for talking to her. (If you don't tell OMW she could see or hear them talking and think Nothing of it). Why give them any extra chances to see or be with one another?

As to your original question. IMO it is never too late. It may not be pleasant or comfortable, but never too late. She may not think she wants to, but she deserves to know.
Would you want to be told??

However, As always its your life so do what you believe is best for you and your situation.
They are all different (& yet still somehow SO the same).

Take care and best wishes with your journey.(Just hold on.......... it's likely to be a bumpy one!).

IGP,

Me again.
Another thought came across as I went to sleep last night (as I was initially responding to your 1st post, this thought came from your 2nd).

Please be aware An A is not over as long as there is still contact. Since they are STILL in contact, then the A is Still ongoing (at least on some level). Don't fool yourself that 2 people who have been this intimate and close can now just "somehow" go back to be "JUST" professional. That Line was crossed a long, long time ago and can Never be reestablished. The WS and OP may want to believe that they can just be friends or coworkers, but its just not possible. The feelings and emotions from an A are just too intense. It may not happen immediately, but why play with fire? So don't fall for the lie. If you do you will regret it in the end.

In addition, don't forget that your recovery CAN NOT begin until the A ends.  If there is ANY contact your wife's withdrawal clock goes back to day one. Think you can live with her like that for who knows how long in a on going state of withdrawl? yiiikes!

Also can you live with the fact that they can and most likely will continue to see and talk to each other indefinitely?  Think about that one real hard. There is no way that 2 people with their history will NOT talk and give each other personal information. Why? Because that is the bases for their relationship. They make each other feel good. They CANNOT see past this hard Fact. However, you must.....for you and your M's sake.

NC will not be achieved as long as they work together. Its sad but its true. So ask yourself can your M ever truly heal as long as contact does exist?  ONLY you can answer that, but If your honest, I can bet what your answer is.

Lastly, can your emotions and sanity take it over the long term............with you Knowing that at any moment of any given day the 2 of them could be communicating (about Gosh knows what)? Are you strong enough to deal with that ongoing stress every morning as your W leaves for work? Is that fair to you or even healthy for you? I believe you think you Can handle it. And you might. (?) But its not about being strong, its about being smart.

You are lucky that you have so many stories to draw conclusions from. I have not seen many where contact has been kept going, and the M has both healed and survived. There may be some, but not many. Do you really want to try and beat those kinds of odds?

Good news is that your W could get another job. Or better yet you could go to the company and get him to resign. If he was her boss many companies do not even want to try and deal with possible sexual harassment. The company just wants the problem to go away. That is what happened in our case. After going to the Human Resources Department, within a week the OM resigned and went away forever. ( I do wish I had been there to see security escort him out as he was barred from all company property).

My wife kept her job, but she too left the company about 3 months later. She said that the Triggers at the company were just too much for her to handle. To be honest, the triggers were too much for me to handle as well. Somehow just because that was the place in which the A started and continued, I somehow didn't "trust" her even in that place or atmosphere (even with OM gone). Thankfully, she got an even better job with better career options. Much of my anxiety left as she left that place. So at least on that front everything is well.

Like it or not a job change for one of them will have to occur IF your M is too survive (and thrive). As you and your W may be going through a honeymoon period right now, I realize that you may not want to hear this. That's OK.
If not, then just keep your mind open and ask yourself as time goes by "Is her continuing to work there (with OM) helping or hurting our ability to save and heal this marriage??" Only YOU know what and how much you can put up with. Just please don't let it be about the $$$$. Any job she goes to will pay her that. Make this about your M!

Question: Have you even read the material or the books which talk about NC and why it is SO crucial?

Remember that this isn't even about "getting" this guy. He made ALL his own choices and knew the consequences. Your goal is to just get the 2 of them apart forever, by any means necessary.

I'm not saying you need to follow my plan. but please do come up with some Plan to get this OM away and out of both of your lives permanently.

Anyway, just forgot to put that tidbit in there with my first post.  Again take care , ........you can make it!

Star*fish....you wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you have extraordinary precautions in place for your wife to avoid her former lover? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The answer is no, I don't. OM would drive from his office, meet my W at a hotel during her lunch hour. I don't know how I can prevent this to be honest with you.

Secondly, W has been saying that I need to trust her. She has told me that there has been NC for 4 weeks. I asked her last night if she has talked with him and she told me yes, 2 weeks ago, when she found OMs home phone number in my car. She called him to tell him that I was going to contact OMW. I had been trying to call her but was never able to get in contact. Second contact between WW/OM occured when OMs caller ID showed my place of work. He calls my W to ask where I worked. W tells me that OM wanted to call me and tell me that A with W was completely over. It's obvious that my wife is trying to protect OM. It's also possible that OMW knows nothing although I suspect she knows about the A, just not my Ws identity. I have written a great letter to OMW, exposing everything.It's very supportive to her. I haven't sent it yet. Any thoughts??

Top Rope, thanks for the response. My wife has admitted to snooping around. She found the exposure letter to OMW and is really bothered by it (i didn'thide it very well). I ask her why she feels she needs to snoop and she says that she doesn't want OMW to know its her, it would be too embaressing (tough sh*t huh??). I truly feel that OMW must get this letter from me, even if I have to hand deliver it. Something just doesn't add up in my eyes. I tell her that as long as there is ANY contact, her feelings for him can be rekindled. She says that they won't be rekindled. Again, you want to believe but I know I can't. IYP, after finding out she lied about NC, do you deliver the letter to OMW?? We are seriously talking about MC, would this hurt any chances of recovery via MC??

IGP,

Well, unfortunately, it sounds like you have your proof as far as the NC being broken. The WS just doesn't see it as a big deal. (She thinks well after all I wasn't fu**ing him.) Maybe maybe not? How are you too know? If she'd lie about one thing, who knows if it really is still going on (just being more careful)? Problem is I don't know and neither do you.

However, you darn well know that the 2 of them are not only talking but plotting behind your back? Can you see where her concern and focus STILL is? She reports to the OM what you are planning (to help his cause) and lies to you about the OM plans. See a pattern here?

(But she says its "over"). OK, right.

She is not currently looking out for either your interests or the interests of the M. Her concern is still about the A and the OM. This must stop. For this to stop there must be NC. To steal the line of a more experienced poster "NO CONTACT Means ....NO CONTACT! What about That DON'T YOU Understand?"

Also, You now have your proof of her continued lies and deceit. NOT unusual for a WS, but now YOU know that you can't just "believe" her because its easier or makes you feel better. As long as there is contact she will continue this behavior. She lies because that is what she is used to and that is what fuels the A.

Your M can't recover till she end the A. It has not ended.

Now about how she claims the "feeling" won't start up again. Wouldn't this be the same woman who would have claimed in the past that nothing like this would EVER happen in the first place? Would that be a yes?
Truly, to be even more honest, her feelings for this OM haven't even changed yet. She has not broken that connection yet.

Lastly, as far as making her angry. Yes, be ready. If you expose her, she will be furious. In addition, she will lash out, threaten, bargain, plead, basically any "trick" she can come up with to manipulate you into doing what she wants......not expose the A and therefore End it. (Even if not immediately, it usually begins the death knell of the A). However, the anger will die down as her withdrawl lessons and reality begins to come back into focus.

IGP, you said you already had a letter prepared. Now you have your conformation of Contact. Questions is now what are you going to do? I can't tell you that. That is for you to decide. I know the feeling of indecision in you. The what ifs and the "well this might happen"!
None of this is easy but we will be here for you as others have been here for us. You are still early on in the process, so take heart that it can get better. Even if it doesn't always seem that way.

Again I'll ask have you read all the material by the Harley's on this site? Also have you read any of their books, such as "Surviving An Affair?" (A must read)-- Another I have found helpful is "Torn Asunder" by Dave Carder. The books go into much more detail that you can really use. (not to be a shill for them)
The people here are great, but nothing can replace getting the information for yourself and being able to really make up your own mind (for your particular situation).
You are still so new to this that you need to learn all you can in order to be able to form a real as well as effective PLAN to get through this. This is not a situation that you want to just fly by the seat of your pants. later

Top Rope; I have read Surviving the Affair, His Needs/Her needs, and After the Affair. I ordered Torn Asunder. I am reasonably versed on Harley's principals. This board has been great as well.

So now I have proof of continued contact and proof of her lieing to me. She asks me to trust and I want to, but after being lied to again, how can I??? She's snooping in my car, my dresser, wanting to know what I'm up to.....like I had the A??? I think I've got to expose everything to OMW.
What I'm I risking here, however, if I do???

IGP,
Just read the thread. You have gotten great advice from Top Rope. Not sure that I can add much more.

All I can do is relate my situation which may increase your resolve to tell OM'sW.

I was like you. I was the spouse that bumped into the evidence. The OM's W didn't have a clue.

My W ended the A after DDay1. (I think it was winding down anyway so no big sacrafice on her part) She was emphatic that I not tell the OM's W. "Why ruin their marriage?" ( I know stupid logic.)

In a way I was afraid to tell the OM'sW. I reasoned that she might throw him out and if that happened my W would be free to go with her "soul" mate. He had told her that he would "never divorce his wife because of the kids." (how noble; puke) Typical boundary set by an OM so that they can commit but not commit.

Despite the advice from the veteran MBers at the time I didn't do it. I hesitated and then as each day of "recovery" went by it became more and more difficult to do it.

Eventually I realized that I needed to tell her. Once I got over the fear that the W might run off with him, I realized that I wanted to tell so that he could experience the hell I was going through (Although I've since discovered that he wouldn't have experienced the same level of pain ie WS never truely suffer as much as the BS- imho, they feel it's the same level due to withdrawal but they don't have a clue.)

The feelings of revenge died down and I had another feeling towards the OM'sW. I felt guilty for not having told her. Here she was living with a lie of a marriage and a liar of a husband. I also felt sorry for her. She deserved to know.

A year went by, the feelings of guilt grew. Luckily the AH OM tried to renew contact despite NC letter and NC from my W for a year.

I called his W. I introduced myself. I told her the truth. She was so shocked that she didn't believe me. She kept saying over and over, "I'll need to ask my H about this."

I called back a few days later and discovered that the OM had weiseled out of the whole thing. He admitted to, in essence, an EA (although he didn't call it that and said there was no problem with his "friendship" with my W.)

I tried to walk her through the evidence again so she'd believe me. She said," H told me that you always had it in for him." (I barely new the arrogant jerk and imho he always enjoyed showing how close he was to my W on the few occassions I had seen him)

Finally I think she heard the pain in my voice and I think she knew.

What are the lessons learned:

1) If possible I'd go in person to tell her. Bring all the evidence. That way she can see your pain immediately and review the evidence versus just hearing about it.

2) I can't remember what level of evidence you have but hopefully it's overwhelming so she'll believe. Voice recordings of conversations the best or love letters.

Once I told OM'SW she thanked me profusely. She said," I wish you had told me as soon as you had a bit of evidence so that I could have helped.

Most importantly she thanked me for allowing her to know the truth so that she could be the one who controlled her future. She could make an informed decision based upon the truth.

Have the courage. I know it's hard. You'll rationalize why you shouldn't just like I had.

Good luck,

cwmac

<small>[ May 17, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

cwmac....Wow, you know just where I am right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W ended the A after DDay1. (I think it was winding down anyway so no big sacrafice on her part) She was emphatic that I not tell the OM's W. "Why ruin their marriage?" ( I know stupid logic.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep...wife said that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a way I was afraid to tell the OM'sW. I reasoned that she might throw him out and if

that happened my W would be free to go with her "soul" mate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep...feeling this right now,especially after he said he wanted to spend the rest of his life with my wife, even though he has two young sons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If possible I'd go in person to tell her. Bring all the evidence. That way she can see your pain immediately and review the evidence versus just hearing about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah...I think this is the way to go. I can't seem to get in contact with her on the phone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't remember what level of evidence you have but hopefully it's overwhelming so she'll believe. Voice recordings of conversations the best or love letters.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, I have no hard evidence, just confessions from my wife and other details that she has told me (such as dates, times, places etc). OM has supposedly told his W that he's had an A but his wife didn't want to know anything more. Seems like she's in denial in a BIG way. However, if WW/OM wanted to keep the A going, OMW may not know a thing and I've been lied to again.

"I'm concerned that if I do call OMW, it will give OM an excuse to call my wife and re-establish contact. Any ideas??? Not sure what to think."

Man, oh man, do I sympathize with you! This initial time right after discovery is so full of doubts and fears, of lies, of attempts to minimize things, of attempts to manipulate you by things like "you should trust me", etc.

Okay, a couple of things. First with regard to the above quote, no doubt about it, it WILL give them an "excuse" to contact each other. They are either trying to appear as the affair is over, when in reality it has just "gone underground" until the dust settles or they are trying to minimize "collateral damage", i.e., the consequences of their illicit CHOICES.

There is no doubt about one thing though, there MUST be No Contact between them whatsoever. That includes work. I've seen too many others on the system who have tried to "allow" "business related only" contact to occur. It doesn't work. At best it severely delays recovery, but think of it this way. How comfortable would you wife be, or how sincere would she think you were in being concerned about HER welfare, IF you remained in contact with someone, a co-worker or whomever, who had raped her? What they did was tantamount to "rape" of your marriage. You and your wife are "one flesh", joined and "one person", if you will.

Here is the reality that you have to face. Trust is very easy to lose, it is very hard to regain. To date it does not appear that your wife has done much to EARN your trust. That she was, may still be, untrustworthy is a given. The affair alone is prima facia proof. It will take much hard work, consistant trustworthy behavior, and time to reestablish trust.

Second, contact is NOT uncommon during recovery. There are emotional forces at work much like a drug addict suffers through in withdrawal. Even the "desire" for a "fix" can remain for years after the physical symptoms have been conquered.

So prepare yourself for the possibility of contact even if No Contact is agreed to. Should it occur, you will have to evaluate each contact to determine if it was a "slip" or a rekindling of the affair in order to determine your appropriate response. If it's the "slip" variety, even though it DOES hurt and cause more doubts, you might want to prepare yourself for dealing with it much like you might "endure" continued medical "flare ups" on the way to full recovery.

The thing your wife has not grasped yet is that the affair was under her total control while it was in secret. But recovery is under the control of the Betrayed Spouse. IF she wants to recover your marriage (obviously you do or you wouldn't be posting here) then she is going to have to play by the "rules" that you establish. This does not mean that you get to play "dictator", but it does mean that rules that are necessary for the health of them marriage are NOT optional.

With respect to contacting the OM's wife, it's a tough call. But one "option" could well be that if there is ANY further contact between the OM and your wife that you FIND OUT ABOUT, as opposed to her disclosing each and every contact or attempted contact immediately (and what was discussed if there was an actual contact) per an agreement about how to handle things to reestablish trust, you make it clear to you wife that her action would then "trigger" a response from you that would include making sure the OM's wife was fully up-to-date and informed.

Also, if it's possible, the two of you should be in Joint Marital Counseling with a counselor who is both trained and committed to saving marriages. There are potentially tough issues and changes that you both may need to address and it helps to have a neutral 3rd party as the guide, and even "bad guy" from time to time. That person can hold you both accountable.

Right now they are both operating as a unit, "us against you". That is NOT how a marriage operates. It should be husband and wife against the world, if necessary. This teaming up of theirs must stop if there is to be any hope of reconciliation in your marriage. Do NOT allow them to shift "blame" to you or "guilt" you into not doing things that are necessary. THEY made the CHOICE, and now the consequences are coming "home to roost." I suppose it would be "nice" if all of our actions had no consequences, but the reality is that all actions have consequences, some good and some bad, depending on what the action in question was.

Right now, you need to be in a strong Plan A, eliminate Love Busters, and stand your ground in insisting that ANY marriage cannot have a 3rd party in it. Yes, that can be a sort of "ultimatum", and you might fear that she might run back to the Other Man. I know I had that fear and that it is quite common. The reality you have to remind yourself of is that she already has been in the Other Man's arms and you didn't "force" that. The time for some clear and distinct boundaries has arrived. This is no time to let your fears get the better of you. Yes, I know it's very hard to have to deal with this, but it is necessary.

HER response and her actions will be what causes or doesn't cause certain responses by you. Just make sure that if you do contact the wife, there is no vindictiveness or malice.

You've both been betrayed and it is equally difficult for both of you. Also, if you do inform the OM's wife, do not expect that she will react as you are. She may well react much differently. All the purpose that is served with such contact is to get the affair fully exposed, not to gain her support. If it does happen, great, but don't count on it.

God bless.

IGP,
Hhhmmm , no hard evidence, huh.

Did your wife ever send a NC letter? If not will she now? She should even if she tells you it's been over for days, weeks years. If she or you had sent one did you keep a copy?

Did she ever give you a "I'm sorry" type of card?

Cell phone bills?

How did you suspect?

If they are still in contact would a v-recorder work in this situation? If she works probably not. I take it back she may call him from the house on weekends or at nights when you are out on errands.

cwmac

IGP,

I agree with everything that ForeverHers said about the No Contact.

Per my previous post I think the OM's W should be told as soon as you have credible evidence that she can review while you're telling her.

FH said...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But one "option" could well be that if there is ANY further contact between the OM and your wife that you FIND OUT ABOUT,... you make it clear to you wife that her action would then "trigger" a response from you that would include making sure the OM's wife was fully up-to-date and informed.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This type of negotiation is exactly what I did and I regretted it as I already mentioned. I felt guilty for not telling the OM'sW but couldn't call her because of the "agreement". Some may say ,"what do you care about this stranger? All you should care about is your W and your M." I disagree. She deserves to know!!!

cwmac

If she has not sent the NC letter, she should send it and copy his wife. Then YOU should call to make sure she has seen it.