My spouse confessed last week to an affair that I've suspected since it began. I confronted him a lot before he confessed, but he always denied it. I knew he was lying, but I didn't have any solid evidence. The confession came because the OW told him she was "moving on" and he should too. So he told me. Even though I suspected, I was still stunned.

At first I was numb, and after talking about everything, he agreed never to see her again, I forgave him, and we talked about how to rebuild our relationship. I still forgive him, and I've accepted my part in all this. Circumstances have made me concentrate on developing my business so that I can have some kind of nest egg for my old age (I'm 63, he's 79), and I'm just now beginning to experience success. But, of course, it left him lonely. Our sex life hasn't been great for the last several years due to both of us, though he blames it on me.

I found this site and told him about it, we did the Needs thing and I immediately realized it was too soon, just two days after the confession. But we did make plans to take a day trip to the mountains, and had good talk about our relationship. We committed to doing the MarriageBuilder program, and were ready to make a new start.

The next day he got angry at me for the "constraints" I was putting on him in making him never see her again and not letting him "finish" the A his way. Turns out she left a message on his work voice mail that morning, and he was undone by it and wanted to go to her. I told him if he did he'd be history. He went.

Meanwhile, I called her and told her that if she ever saw or spoke to him again she'd be in big trouble. He came home shortly after I called her and was angry at me for having done so.

I felt so betrayed. This time my feelings weren't numb, I was angry, hurt, you know all the feelings.

We've alternatively fought, had rational conversations about it, made different plans. At first I wanted to end it. But then I wanted to work on our relationship. Now I vacillate between the two. He wants to stay, to work on it, to make it as strong as it can be.

However, he wants to get into therapy to figure out why he gets into affairs. I'm a product of an affair. Ten years ago we had an affair, he left his wife of 45 years and we moved to another state. She was the product of an affair. He also wants to work on his newly identified "narcissism," the depression he's going through, and his anxiety. He's had problems with anxiety ever since he can remember. I want us to get into marriage therapy. I was trained as a marriage and family therapist, though I don't practice, and I know the good it can do.

Does anybody have any advice for me?

I think I'm confused. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Your last paragraph,,,,

Do you mean he had been married for 45 years when you met him?
You two had an affair and he left his W?
You two moved out of state and got married?
And now, after being married to him for X number of years, you find that he is having another affair?

Yup...

Well, someone has to say it... Might as well be me.

Your marriage is the product of one, maybe two marriages ended by infidelity, and you are now experiencing some of what you created for another woman 10 years ago.

You should read all about this Marriage Builders site, and the philosophy behind it. It will give you insight as to how to work on your marriage.

In that you are a counselor, I would suggest you contact MarriageBuilders (phone # on home page). You might want to start at the top, with the best, Dr. Harley for counseling/coaching. This approach is contrary to what many other counselers use, and it may seem contrary to common sense and your previous training, but you can see the success stories unfold before your eyes here.

Don't be too surprised if a couple of folks stop by with some 2x4's for your head, for this position you now find yourself in. But overall, people here have been there, done that, regarding affairs, and outcomes, most will offer you what help they can.

Good luck!
SD

Yes, I knew I could expect the 2 x 4's, and I accept that. Might as well make it totally honest -- I'm also a "retired" minister, not by choice but by censure. Now you know all of it. And yes, I've paid. And yes, I understand that this should not be a surprise to me, but it still is. And I still have feelings because I'm still a human being. We had both made peace with our respective spouses, and have retained their friendship and have their good regard, though God knows, we didn't deserve it. But that's what grace is all about, and I recognize it for what it is.

My training is just about the same kind of thing this MarriageBuilders method is, that's why I'm here asking for help. I agree completely with everything I've seen here so far. It's a good program, and I've emailed Dr. Harvey to say so.

Thanks for your encouragement...and I'll keep on accepting the consequences of my past actions.

Well, I must say it was courageous of you to post here, and having withstood the first couple of 2x4's with dignity and grace, you're more likely to get people to respond.

Know that on weekends, the boards slow down a lot, and, General Questions II is by far the most active board. If you don't get a response in a "reasonable" amount of time, just "reply" to your own post with the word "bump" and it will keep the thread towards the top of the list. Or you might just want to start the post "over", over in that category.

You have multiple factors involved, along with the narcissism, you also have a man 79 years old, which brings many other physical and medical aspects into play. He is also a "repeater", regarding infidelity. Do you know if he cheated before his A with you? Perhaps he's always had a wondering eye?

You may have a more complex situation on your hands that would initially meet the eye. Until you get more qualified advice, I'd continue with the MB philosophy, avoid the LB's, DJ's and any AO's, attempt to confer and reason with him about writing a NC letter, and getting into MC, and IC.

He is no doubt still in the fog, and if NC has just begun, he'll be grieving the loss of OP for a while. You should also consider some exposure, especially if the OP is married. As you know, her spouse should be the first to be told. If she is not married, then tell her SO, or eldest son/daughter, so the A will be more difficult to continue.

I wish you well!

SD

<small>[ May 16, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Thanks, ShatteredDreams. I instinctively did some things right, and I do have a letter from her and one written by him. I did tell her SO, our pastor, my son and his SO (who was my partner's and my friend before I introduced her to my son), my granddaughter, and a mutual friend.

He is a repeater. He is now in IC (as of yesterday), and we've committed to MB. I'm checking into IC myself tomorrow. Can't afford MC and both of us in IC. We both have different insurance plans, mine being an HMO with its own MH facilities.

Couldn't find what DJ and AO mean. Could you explain?

Dear Revclaus,

With your joint history and your experience as a pastor and therapist (or training at least)I'd like to suggest that you two jump ahead a few steps. I usually don't suggest this right away, but I believe that you are both ready for it. I'd like to suggest that you purchase two books. The first is The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price. There is an excellent test in the book to figure out your Enneagram type. There are a few types that are especially prone to affairs and your H is most likely one of them. He probably is sick of his life of guilt and shame and is finally ready to do the work to overcome his weakness.

The second book goes much more into the depths of the personality types and is called The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson. This is the material that I credit with saving my marriage and bringing it to the amazing state that it is in now. Once my H read about his type, the type Four, he was dumbfounded with how it fit and how it explained his constant need for attention. Basically he was trying to heal a deep childhood wound and now we've identified it and are in the healing process. It's really something!

Here's a link to a very brief description of the type Four just so you can see how this type would be prone to affairs:

http://www.9types.com/dave/palmer1.html#four

Here's one to the type Seven...another affair prone group:

http://www.9types.com/dave/riso2.html#seven

There are a couple of other types that are affair prone too. Let me know if you are interested in this. I have the nine type descriptions typed out and can post them (from The Essential Enneagram ). That would at least get you started and you could see if you were interested in pursuing this route to attack this situation.

Take care.

Stillwed

P.S. Those two books are available on amazon.com at a discounted price...both are in paperback and shipping is free on orders over $25.

The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson

The Essential Enneagram by Daniels and Price

Don't forget to read:

Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley

<small>[ May 16, 2004, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

avoid the LB's, DJ's and any AO's

LoveBusters, Disrespectful Judgements and Angry Outbursts.

Read the first two topic in this Just Found Out thread. They are an introduction to the MB website and philosophy. All the cryptic stuff is explained there too. LOL!

Surviving an Affair, His Needs/Her Needs, Torn Asunder, After an Affair are some other books that are mentioned here often. I've read the first one, it's an excellent guide through the "experience" for both parties. I'm now reading HN/HN, and it is equally enlightening.

Keep posting. You will receive real help here, and hopefully you IC's are pro-marriage, and will support the MB "way".

SD

<small>[ May 16, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Revclaus,

I am not sure exactly what to post to you. You really haven't asked for any advice. It sounds as if you and H are working on this and that he is willing to enter counseling to address this.

But, I have a question for you. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Circumstances have made me concentrate on developing my business so that I can have some kind of nest egg for my old age (I'm 63, he's 79), and I'm just now beginning to experience success. But, of course, it left him lonely.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At 79 years of age, how many more years does he have left to be lonely, or to enjoy your company? I appreciate your need for some security, but you also left a long term marriage right? If so you should have gotten some settlement from this.

I guess my point is one of priorities. You have decided that financialy security is more important that time with your H. Given your H's has had A's in the past and given his age, are you suprised that he did NOT want to be lonely and sought out other companionship? It would seem to be the logical thing for him to do given his history.

Now this post is not about 2x4'ing you, but to ask about your priorities and where they stand. Further, you mentioned your H still works, is it possible to get your schedules organized so that he is NOT a lone as much?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our sex life hasn't been great for the last several years due to both of us, though he blames it on me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw this and just shook my head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You two need to understand the concept of the Policy of radical honesty, and the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. I suspect you know he clearly connects emotionally via sex.

I must end this but I must say, I hope you stay around your background and experience could be very helpful to many people on this site.

One last thing you stated that your exspouses have achieved a state of peace with you two. I think explain to people here how this came to be would be very very helpful. I do hope you realize how fortunate you are, I am guessing both of them were very hurt.

As to advice, give this time and have patience is my first piece of advice. It seems he doesn't want to lose you, the real question is do you want to end the marriage? If not, time and patience, plus do some reading here and of the articles. It is hard to say what you need to know as I suspect you already know what needs to be done given your background and training.

I look forward to seeing other posts.

God Bless,

JL

This is certainly an interesting post, perhaps not unique. One cannot help but wonder, if he has a history of infidelity, is it surprising to you that he repeats this offense? Your relationship is the result of infidelity on his part and on your own. How can there be trust when each of you know what the other is capable of? Nonetheless, you are now in this situation and there is a wealth of experience here that can help you deal with this.
When you both separated, was the settlement in favor of both of your exes because of infidelity? Now, you have to work to build a small nest egg?

A question no one has brought up in this forum, or at least I have not seen is why is it that people who cheat on their spouses feel offended when the tables are turned and somebody does it to them?

You were a minister? I know of a case in here of a former minister whose wife was unfaithful and he gave up the ministry as a result. It was not his fault, but he felt he could not preach anymore. Hopefully, he will see your post.

Best of luck

<small>[ May 16, 2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Why-me? ]</small>

Thanks to many of you who have offered very helpful advice.

For those of you who wonder why I need to provide for my own financial security, without it if I ever retire I can expect around $625 in SS benefits and a $250 pension from my denomination, that's all. I asked for temporary support from my ex-husband because I thought that was fair. That has run out. We had just filed bankruptcy because of a long series of financial catastrophes, and he had taken early retirement. He has a small pension and about $1,000 a month in SS benefits. We mutually agreed to this arrangement.

My current spouse has a pension, no SS, and gives 51% to his ex-spouse. What's left goes for his need for alternative medicine -- vitamins, minerals, Chinese medicine, etc. -- to treat his Hepatitis C (received from blood transfusions during surgery), organic food, and high medical bills. He is legally separated, not divorced, for a good reason. If he were to obtain a divorce, his former spouse would be denied all medical benefits, and when he dies, she would not continue to get half his pension. In all good conscience he felt he couldn't deprive her of those benefits.

So do you think I could live on $875 a month?

If you're wondering why I don't have a bigger pension, it's because I served small churches that couldn't afford to contribute to a pension fund for me, and could only afford a small salary. I was married then, so my then-husband and I discussed it and we agreed that I should continue to work serving these churches because of his then income. I had only been in the church I was serving that could afford to contribute to a pension fund for me for four years when this affair happened.

So that's why I have spent so much time and energy since we began our living together arrangement on trying to make enough money to provide myself with money to live on in my old age when my current partner is no longer here to help provide any kind of support. This was a mutually agreed-upon decision. He felt very guilty about my not being able to be employed in churches (of course, I did too -- my guilt was much deeper than his because of my special obligation to my congregation and to my God).

So I have been struggling to learn new skills and a new career. I am a realtor, and if there are any of you out there you know how much money it takes to become a successful realtor. We are now beginning to experience the fruits of my labor to do this. I hope that gives you all an idea why I put so much time and energy into my career at what some of you may say is "my husband's expense."

To be fully honest while trying not to shirk my own responsibility in my then affair with my current spouse (as you can see, he's not really my spouse since we're not able to marry), I stayed with him for as many years as I did without having an affair though he had been impotent since the first few months of our marriage. There was no Viagra at the time. Penile implants were about all there was. And he didn't want to do that. Couldn't say I blamed him. I was prepared to stay married to him in spite of that. But I succumbed to a relationship with my current spouse after working closely together for a couple of years.

As for Why-me's comment, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A question no one has brought up in this forum, or at least I have not seen is why is it that people who cheat on their spouses feel offended when the tables are turned and somebody does it to them?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not offended that my spouse has had an affair, and I do take full responsibility for everything I've done, but as I said before, I'm still a human being and it hurts that he had an affair with another woman. Don't expect me to wallow in guilt because you're angry about my situation.

bump

Since nobody has replied to this last post, I'll ask for it to be bumped to see if anybody will. If not, I'll start posting elsewhere.

Dear sister, how are you doing. I saw your post and could not help but to feel sorry for what you are going through.
It is really sad when a servant of the Lord falls into what you have and persist in that situation. Hopefully you will se the light. I was a minister as well, but in my case, it was my wife who fell. I had to stop the ministry because I felt I could no longer face my congregation and preeach about certain areas.

God bless you and keep on posting.

Formerpreacher, what would seeing the light mean? I'm not sure I know what you think I should do.