Ok, I am here alone....kids and grandkids and some friends coming over tonight....<P>But I am fighting hard...REALLY HARD...not to have a meltdown.<P>My H is a few miles from here at home of his friend where he lives....OW is there....oldest son is there...they are probably having a wonderful time...H probably hasn't thought of me once....I got no gift from him nor a card...no telephone call...no little e-mail....no nothing...probably not even a kind thought...<P>I am trying to be positive here. I am trying to be REAL positive here...or maybe just a little positive here...<P>It is just bothering me so much that he is having fun and I am suffering....it is like they are connected...the more fun he has, the more pain I experience....well, He must be having a BLAST right now <P>Christmas....a time to be rejoicing about the birth of Christ...not obsessing about my H. I waste more time and mental energy on all this. All my efforts have brought me nothing...yet, I still have that stupid faith that we will get back together...Why can't I KILL that off????????????? <P>I want today to be over...and New Years, too. Will be just another holiday to feel rejected on...Can the new year bring something better than this??? God, I am praying so...<P>Yuck, I hate what I am typing here, but can't seem to stop myself. This week I REALLY started HATING the OW. ME???? I didn't think I was capable of this overpowering emotion called hate. Yes, I am...I HATE her. I could ride over to where they are right now and kick her sorry @ss - I really could - I could use all this pent up energy and emotion to beat the living sh1t out of her and then turn it all on my H. Right now, I am even hating my H. Imagine that one?? How can I hate someone I love so much??? I wish I could have the hate just strangle off the love and put an end to this misery I am feeling. I hate everything that is happening - I hate HIM very much right now and more than anything I hate that he is enjoying himself at MY expense - I HATE that so very much especially right this moment on Christmas day. I want to beat the cr@p out of him, too. This just isn't me to have these violent feelings....I am very docile...but right at this moment I could tear up somebody or something. I want that to be him and her - I won't do anything...I'll just try to release it all here. It keeps coming out and I can't stop it from coming out....I am not fighting a meltdown...I am having one<P>I want to run away today...to just get in the car and start driving and drive as far away from this all as possible and NEVER look back and never come back here and never see anybody I know ever again....<P>Yuck, I am sorry...I am just sorry...I am just feeling sorry for myself...it is just bubbling up and I can't keep it in right now...<P>It is this overpowering feeling that no one cares about me which ISN'T true at all...my head and heart know it isn't true..I am just losing perspective right this moment. It is just all the pain is hitting me at one collective moment. I am sure I have felt this bad before, but right now I can never remember anything that feels or felt like this - oh, it is a MAJOR hurt....<P>I hope this is a purge...I need to release this and let it go...I need to get back my head and my intelligence and remember all the good and happiness I have - and I truly do. So why am I letting this pain dominate me and my life...overshadow all the happiness..especially right now on Christmas Day????<P>I will be back in a little bit..I am going to pray so I can find my grounding again...<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Roll Me Away (edited December 25, 1999).]

Desiree - Hang in there, Honey. I'm having a really hard day too.<P>H called to see if I minded if he came over to go hunting first and then open presents tonight. I said, sure, no problem.<P>But he brought his brother with him. So there'll be no real visiting tonight. And he brought in our gifts - mine's a gift certificate, not hard to figure out. They're all in a Victoria's Secret Shopping bag - a big one, so someone got a lot from there and it wasn't us.<P>Daughter is at mom's until dark when they come out of the woods. I'm just trying to hang on. Victoria's Secret for someone he just told 3 days ago that the relationship wasn't working out!!!<P>We'll be ok. I'm here w/ you for a while. <P>Merry Christmas.<P>Lori

I think we are all in the same boat. Christmas was always a special faimly holiday we were always together. In 27 Christmases we were not with his family only once. How about that for a record. He always wanted to be with them. We didn't even have our own family traditions. Looks like next year I will have to start a few. <P>I keep hoping that he is miserable today. That he is rememberthe past. Also hope he is thinking that this is the baby's first CHristmas. He missed it. And of course The baby was so cute he tried to open his gifts. He liked playing with the paper.<BR>I keep thinking albout this and it sends me into a depression. I am angry too at what he has done to his family and put us through. <BR>Desiree, I sent you an email please read it might give you a laugh.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Desiree,<P>I am so srorry you are feeling the way you do. I'm not feeling much better.<P>R spent the night so she could see Abbey come down the stairs and see what Santa brought. It's always majical to see a child wonder st the things under the tree.<P>My whole family is here F, M, S, BIL, D, Me and Robin had the gumption to leave after breakfast to spend x-mas day and dinner w/OB and his family.F@#K!!!!!!! that hurts.<P>I do get some saticfaction that whenshe left she was bawling. My mom finally said something about our M. They werte both crying on the porch. I gave her a hug she was still crying, I told her she was welcome to stay and eat w/her family. Without a word she got into her car and drove away crying.<P>How can a mother leave her 3 year old child on x-mas day and spend it with strangers. I hope she cries her f-ing eyes out all the way there, I hope she it absolutly muserable as sh1t while she,s there. I hate that LRB for what he's done to my family. I hate this self-centered person that has become my W.<P>I can totally identify with your feelings of pain, rage, hatred and anguish. It sucks. These feelings make it real hard to find somthing to be thankful for.<P>I hope she is so depressed that OB goets fed up with her, aNd does something to LB. Thats what I'm praying for.<P>Hang in there try to enjoy your children and grandchildren.<P>In case no one has told that they love you today, I do. Thank you for your friendship and support on these boards, it helps alot.<P>If you need someone to comiserate with I'll be in and out of here all day.<P>Enjoy your faily when they come over.<P>I,m praying that you can feel the love of Christ filling that void that is in us.<P>Merry Christmas to you and your children,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

OK, I feel a tad bit better. Right after I posted, one of my B's (I have 7 B's!) and SIL called to wish me a Merry Christmas. I whined and cried my heart out for a good hr. on the phone to them. My B told me to get a boyfriend and I had to crack up at that one!<P>Lori,<P>I am struggling alot here and know you are, too, so I appreciate the kind support. I know that we will be OK, just feeling down and out today. At least you will see your H and are getting some little gift. It is NOT the gift that I am feeling bad about...it is the IDEA that I might matter to him...I guess I don't and that hurts so d@mn much. If I could take a pill to kill the remaining feelings I have for my H, I would take that pill right now and have this over and done with for once and for all. I am just tired of hurting so much...Sorry to dump my troubles here. <P>My H told me on Wed. he is handling all this by "compartmentalizing" - I guess when he doesn't see me he doesn't think of me. I am unable to do that...I really wish I could....it would make things alot easier to handle for me.....This pain makes me feel so puny...weak and puny...those are the only words to describe this feeling. Do you understand????<P>Diana,<P>My twin sister, you always help me so much! I read your e-mail and I don't know what I would do without you. You and I are always able to help and reach each other. I sent you one back...more ramblings and more purge...<P>Bill,<P>Well, my other laugh for this day comes from just reading the letters -LRB!!! I LOVE that acronym. Oh, I don't know where your Robin's head is...up the same @ss as my H! At least she came over to be there for Abbey. It is hard to understand her leaving and crying like she was being FORCED to go???? She is going of her own free will. <P>I am really experiencing every one of the feelings you wrote about. I am surprised at this today. I was so determined to have a really good day today. I don't know what to say about my feelings today. I feel overpowered by them...maybe I have been trying too hard to keep them surpressed.<P>Sometimes I wonder if I will ever be happy again??? This is a stupid thought, because of course I will be happy again, once I get myself extricated from this cycle of pain. I need to get away from it all - truly running away sounds so WONDERFUL to me!!!! I could be a runaway like my H. I could run off and leave all this [censored] behind me and find somebody to make ME feel so d@mn wonderful about myself....<P>My new runaway life: I am going to be a world traveller...cash in my investments and retirement and just travel all over the world and keep going until the money runs out. Then, when the money is gone, I will time it so I land on an island...I am going to be a beach bum. I love to fish (don't really know how to surf fish, but I can learn), and I do know how to clean and cook fresh fish! I will forage for nuts and berries and eat seafood and coconuts and sleep alot and swim alot, too. I will be ever so nice to myself and write letters and tuck them in bottles I will toss into the sea. I will enjoy the simplicity of a simple life - find beauty and pleasure in a flower or a sunset or a seashell or the sound of nothing but the waves lapping......<P>Ok, I gotta stop...this is definitely a purge now....I am feeling better just typing the thoughts as they come into my head.<P>Desiree<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

desiree - Vent all you want. We're here for you. I know it makes me feel a lot better to do that and you have a perfect right to be angry at BOTH your H and the OW. And if it's any consolation (they say misery loves company!) my W is about 2000 mi away over Xmas with her family (wouldn't surprise me if OM's there too) while I'm "home alone." Son's coming over to visit sometime this evening, and that's my Xmas. But you know what? I'm actually enjoying having the time to myself for a change. Previous Xmases with W's family have all been incredibly hectic, stressful affairs. So I guess this is my suggestion. Think of it as giving yourself som time to yourself as your Xmas present to yourself. Regards, blessings and happy holidays,<P>--Wex

Desiree,<BR>Sent you an email.<P>Those feeling you were talking about just creep in when we least expect it. And then they hit us over the head. <P>I think I would run away to the mountains somewhere. Of course I like the ocean too. I know 6months in one place then the other. I could just sit and watch the snow falling and the beautiful sunset and sunrises. Or I could watch the wave hitting the beach and those sunsets and rises.<P>Of course I am going to ruin it all by saying and someone to watch it with me. <P>AH just not to feel this way anymore.<P>Got tickled at my S last night. We had to take GS for a ride to get him to sleep so we went looking at lights. S said Mom next year I am really going to decorate your house it will be so bright you will have trouble sleeping. Guess he is ready to move ahead. <P><P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Wex,<P>Yes, I should be enjoying this quiet time, but so foreign to me. I come from a family of 9 kids so always plenty of people around for the holidays! My kids have just started to arrive, so that is nice. I have been playing CDs all day - just finished The Little River Band and got Kenney Wayne Shepard going right now. I am perking up a bit now. Thanks for the well wishes!<P>Diana, <P>I will check for your e-mail next. Your S is so smart - just EXACTLY what you needed to hear today!!! Patrick is very positive that next year will have so many things settled for you. You have a great son and daughter, too. <P>I like the idea about 6 months in mountains and 6 months at the beach - I could go for that, too! Ah, to have someone to share things with would be nice, too, but right now, I would settle for just being alone and feeling peaceful about it!<P>Desiree <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hey, Desiree -- I'm late to the party as usual, but I was here very early this morning. These holidays are very hard and lots of people have to deal with them alone which is a special kind of torture. I, too, had a small crying jag late this morning, even though W is here. There was a tiny bit of sunlight for a while anyway.<P>I reneged on my insistance of not exchanging Christmas gifts. W has wanted a cell phone for a while. She is in a cube at work and it is very difficult for her to make any kind of necessary personal phone calls without one of her nosey neighbors listening in. She had voiced a desire for a phone a couple of months ago. My first thought was that she would use it to call OM undetected. After all, I hear this kind of stuff all of the time and read about it in articles and books. I indicated my displeasure about it which led to a heated discussion. It was even brought up in our joint counseling giving the therapist one more fault of my to explore.<P>Well, I thought about getting her one for her birthday and rejected it at the last minute because I didn't trust her. For the two weeks after her b-day(11/15), I worked the issue around and around in her head. The reasons she had given me for wanting one were certainly sound and I would have wholeheartedly approved a year ago. I finally decided that I needed to demonstrate some trust and bought her one for Christmas. I was going to return it after last week's events, but changed my mind.<P>Boy, was she ever pleased!! I had attached a "read-first" note explaining why I reneged on my "no gifts" insistance and explained all about the trust issue without letting her know what was inside the package. She was very peeved at the note until she saw what the gift was and she told me she understood completely. She was like a child with a new toy, so pleased. She hugged and kissed me lovingly. Well a few minutes after that was my little cry.<P>Then I decided to try to use this to my advantage. She sat with me on the couch and I told her I already knew the answer to this, but "Are you really sure you want to do this?(leave)". She thought about it a minute and said that she was afraid if she didn't, she might always regret it. So I used that as an opening to re-present my case, saying that she <B>could</B> be independent and stay married. I repeated my argument that she couldn't know for sure whether or not this was true until she tried it. A long discussion ensued with her parrying every thrust. The conversation lasted about 30 minutes and neither was "up in arms" when it was over. I could tell by the look on her face I had made some kind of impact. I still feel she will leave, but I mounted a valiant counterattack with love and logic that I am proud of. She may go, but not before she tasted my best effort.<P>Right after she had indicated she might regret not doing it, I reminded her that she has lived on her own multiple times in the past when she was single. This wasn't like someone who married at 16 and had been married for 25 years. Don't know if that in particular had any impact, but I hope so.<P>The roller coaster is running up the ramp now. I shall just await it's rapid slide the other way. Right after the conversation, she had a little lunch, a few chocolates and then felt ill saying she had overdone the candy. I think her illness was more mental than physical. She said she was going upstairs to lie down. I asked if she wanted company and she said that she had intended to read so I stayed put. She has been sleeping now for a couple of hours, so I really believe I caused a little mental stress. Now it's a roll of the dice to see where she lands.<P>Sorry for the upbeat(kinda) and very lengthy post when you are so down, but you are a friend of mine and I just wanted you to know.<P>Speaking of lengthy posts, who writes longer posts than Lori or me? Well, actually, you do quite admirably in that department, Desiree. But at least no one can say we hold anything back, right??<P>Hugs to ya...<P>--DeWayne--

RMA-<P>Hey Miss Peach!! You can't run away w/o me-LOL.<P>I know you are having your family over now, so you won't get this until later. I just wanted to check in and see how you are doing.<P>Holidays are hard. The feelings that you are having are perfectly normal. This stuff rocks you to the core. It's good to get it out. Keep venting.<P>Here is hopig that your evening is a whole lot better and that your positive thoughts take over.<P>Jesus is the reason for the season. He is there for you, always.<P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl<P>PS- Dewayne- Good news, friend. Keep up the good work!!!

I can't not respond good friend...<P>Vent all you want...<P>Let your meltdown... melt away the hard heartedness of spouses who hurt us.<P>Hey... Desiree... There was a little baby born about 2000 years ago... and even back then He was smiling for the love you show to everyone... even to your H! <P>yep... yep... I believe... <P>Jim

I am feeling better. Actually, I had no where to go but up because I was THAT low.<BR>My kids, grandkids and friends came by. <P>DeWayne,<P>Glad you and your W had a good day...so happy you decided to get her the gift. Teh fact that you got the cellphone is really a major step for you - shows you are willing to trust again.<P>DeWayne, you try so hard to be so tough, but, dear friend, your heart is kind and loving and forgiving...you try so hard to hide this "gem", but we still see.... <P>I am proud of you, DeWayne. It takes a real man to do what you are doing right now. Your W is truly a lucky, lucky woman! <P>Thanks for thinking of me...yes, this has been one hell of a Christmas that I am glad is virtually over. Next year's WILL be better than this.<P>ceecee,<P>OK, you can gladly be my shipmate! Thank you ...my evening was better. I enjoyed all who came over. We had 13 - 3 people invited came down with the flu and couldn't come. Had a wonderful meal and just love and enjoy everyone so very much. Presnets and wrapping paper flying all over the house....plates and pie everywhere. WHEW! My house is a total wreck and I loved every minute of it. None of the kids even asked where H was or if he was coming. I guess maybe they expected him to not come since he didn't come for Thanksgiving. His oldest called him yesterday and ended up going overe to where he is living yesterday and today for lunch and the day...but no mentioon of it and no one else even asked or knew he was intown. I guess they thought he was in FL like for Thanksgiving. Thanks for checking on me, Cheryl. <P>Jim,<P>How was the production last night??? I have thought about it all day wondering about it and just assuming it was fantastic. Want o hear some details so I can give you the appropriate amount of "atta boys"!<P>Yes, this was MAJOR meltdown. I don't know why my H's insensitivity still gets to me...the man has been screwing around onme for 10 month and then I get upset about Christmas when I already knew he wasn't coming around???? My head knows but my heart is foolish and dim-witted. My only defense...my heart made me do it. My friends were giving me a lot of advice tongiht. They tell me I am too naive, and in many respects I know this is true. I confuse intelligence, which I have plenty of, for wordly experience which, I am sorely lacking in, and this is what keeps me all mixed up here. Then when I finally "see" something, it is usually always after the fact, or I can't think of a good enough response because something caught me totally off guard, or I didn't handle the follow-up very good. <P>I am so tired of all of this now. I can hardly remember when I was just enjoying life and enjoying my H and no major worries like all this! My friends told me to quit viewing this as a "problem" and to view it more as an "inconvenience" and it will take less importance in my life. I guess I need an attitude adjustment or something.<P>Yes, Jesus is the reason for the season. I went to Mass this morning and it was wonderful. I felt SOOOOOO good. I am trying to use this entire experience as an opportunity to draw closer to God. I have more opportunity here. I appreciate your support, friedship and most especially your prayers. The prayers have come to mean more to me than anything, because HE has the power to help me when no one else can, including myself! <P>I feel wrung out. I will skim one or two more posts and just go to bed.<P>Thank you, friends!!!!!!!!<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree -- Well, all my efforts were for naught. She talked to her family after I posted and told them she is defintely moving out January 8. I asked her later about any chance of her staying and she said that she had really psyched herself up about moving and that's why she wasn't changing her mind.<P>I'm torn right now between continuing to apply pressure and just letting her go. I asked her tonight if she loved me any less than she did a month ago or a year ago and she said no. I'm really having problems with the idea of her doing this if she really does love me that much.<P>Oh, well, I knew this whole day turned out to be too good to be true.<P>--DeWayne--

Desiree - just stopping in to check up on you this morning. Glad you made it through ok. Hey,we all made it throught it, like it or not!! But we did it!!!!<P>Got any room in your caravan? I think running away would be a great idea and I have some suggestions on destinations!!<P>Just thinking of you...<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Desiree}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Lori

DeWayne, <P>The fact that she wants to move out may not be fatal for you guys. Again, she might just be testing for the independence. She might just need to "experience" it. The fact that she told you yesterday that if she doesn't do this, she will always regret it, is significant. If she does not go, this will always be between you two hampering your recovery. <P>My mood today is barely better than yeterday. I am wondering if my love bank just zapped right out yesterday. I am still angry somewhat....<P>More than anything is the feeling of "I don't care." My friends were telling melast night that my H is doing all this because he went through this period of his life recently where he felt out of control (my EA, his B's unexpected death, his job situation, etc., and the other 6 deaths we experienced) and he is doing everything to be in control of me and the OW.<P>You know what....I don't care! I don't give a [censored]! I do not even want to hear one more freakin excuse! I don't even like this man right now! I HATE what he is doing! I don't want to even think about him and what he is doing and why he is doing it and any way in which I might have contributed or what he is gonna do about all this! I don't care one iota about that OW - if she is a good person or a bad person or if he is doing this with her or she is doing this for him! None of it!I don't care about one bit of it, but I can't turn this cr@p off in my head and my life!<P>These two people do not deserve to control my life. I am a good person...not a perfect person, but a very good person. I have a good heart and I am kind and loving and gentle. I go the extra mile for anyone I care about. I am nice looking. I am smart. I have a good job. I have FATASTIC kids and grandkids. I have alot of interesting hobbies and will try out anything new. I enjoy reading and can hold a decent conversation. I am not a model. I am not perfect. I am not rich. I am not a genius. I don't have the perfect family. I can't do any one thing super well, but I can do a little bit of everything. I am just a decent human who can accept some room for imperfection...some margin of errors in her life and can not understand my H's attitude towards me right now nor his quest for the "perfect" relationship that does not exist.<P>All I can say is that it is truly his loss, because I feel myself as undeserving of the sentence he is imposing upon me. <P>Sorry, this has turned into more purge. I have really gotten thrown into a tizzy over these holidays........ach!<P>Desiree<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree -- Don't apologize for all of this outflow. Purges <B>can</B> be good for the soul and mind. Keep it coming out because that's better than bottling it up inside.<P>You said all of the good things about yourself that the rest of us see. The feeling of a lack of control over your own life can be crippling. You can take control without giving up and that's what you need to do at this point.<P>Still here for ya...Hugs...<P>--DeWayne--

DeWayne,<P>God, I am glad you are here this morning...the connection to another human being is vital sometimes....<P>OK, I am crying now and rock bottom again. Yes, I do need to release this stuff...all these feelings I think I hide them from myself. Maybe it is no so much hiding them as supressing them to lessen the pain. I do not know the difference...as a matter of fact, I don't seem to know much of anything right this moment.<P>No, not really true...I am depressed and upset. I told myself last night that if this mood and these feelings persist for a few days, I am going to go to the doc and get some anti-depressants. I have done OK without them - cycles of ups and downs, but nothing that persisted. I am hoping I can purge this and my spirits will lift. I guess I will just have to see.<P>Everything about all of this is bothering me. Especially that now I feel "vicitmized" again. I should have known I was in "trouble" when I felt the need to "defend" myself against Max's post on your thread. I did feel a need to defend. Maybe he really hit a nerve for me...maybe it is just timing with the holidyas, maybe this is pent up feelings that need release, maybe PMS, maybe everything all rolled into one little 101 pound body that feels like it is going to implode.<P>This is it - I am going to get off the computer right now and go do something else for a little bit. I need to focus a little somewhere else for a few minutes. I will say my prayers this morning, too.<P>I will come back this afternoon...<P>Have a better day, DeWayne, and thank you for hanging with me. You can not know how much you are helping me rightnow....truly, you and everyone else are......<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree,<P>I thought I replied to you yesterday but I guess it didn't register. Anyway, I am thinking about you, and praying for you and all of us on MB. I think what I said yesterday (if I can remember rightly), was about your H saying he is able to 'compartmentalize'. Yeah, maybe for awhile, but he won't be able to hold it in forever. It has to come out sometime. And, for him to even say that means that it DOES matter to him, & has an impact on him, but he's trying to repress it. So, I wouldn't let that bother you. And, as far as him having a rip roaring time with no thoughts of you whatsoever--- well, I seriously doubt that. No one (unless they have had a transorbital lobotomy) can simply wipe out years and years of memories.<P>You know, yesterday was probably the worst day of our lives for most of us. But, you know what? We made it through! Only one more holiday to go, then onto the new millenium!! This time next year, we will all be in a better, happier place. I promise!!!<P>Hang in there, Desiree, because you never know what awaits you just around the corner.

<B>Sidney & Desiree</B> -- I am very familiar with "compartmentalization". W is a master. Early on, she told me that she was able to keep me and OM completely separate in her mind. I was "home" and he was "work". Over the last few months, I have tried to dissolve this barrier to limited success. But, Sidney, you are right, they can't maintain the walls forever. Someday they will come tumbling down and all issues will be on the table.<P>Desiree -- I just re-read that one reply to me and I am blushing. I'm nothing all that special, just a person trying to get some happiness out of life. It <B>is</B> nice to know that someone can say the things about me that you just did. It goes a long way to making me feel better about myself. Thanks so much. I am also feeling like a good cry while W is napping.<P>It's a good idea to try to get some meds. No one should have to handle this alone or without something that could really help. I'm on that road myself....<P>I'm glad we can give to each other.<P>--DeWayne--

Hang in there. I have no good advice, but you are in my thoughts and prayers.