Thanks Maxlo
Who knows w/him he does not think he has a problem and it only got worse on Sun.he was so drunk he lost his cell phone.

I tried to call him but kept getting his voicemail so I decided to access it to see if there was a message left from OW and to call her(because his home line was busy)anyway there is a message from him that "If you find this phone please call me at his #)only it took him 3x to say the # right.I was hot when I heard this.

Needless to say that we ended up in a huge fight last night that carried over until this AM.

All I get from him is I'm sorry,I told him it was not good enough anymore that words with no action meant nothing.I told him forget all of our M except for the last 2yrs and tell me what have you done to prove how sorry you are and to change our M and work on our relationship.I pointed out to him all the things he has done and all it has done is set us back farther and farther to the point of where we are today.

I just dont know what to do or where to turn anymore,I'm just so tired.

It would all be so easy if I just did not love him anymore,and I often wonder why do I? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hi Ginger !!!!

As for fun......... I have a saturday off in about 2wks and I have contacted my ex-SIL we have always stayed great friends and have not seen each other in several yrs. So if it works out and we can get together I will be having a whole day to myself,probably lunch maybe some shopping you know girl stuff.How does that sound??


It sounds a lot better than working, or tending kids. I am hoping you can relax and enjoy yourself.

Now, about your H.

Darn, I don't know what to say.

All the questions I want to ask sound wrong when I type them.

How about this -

What do you see as your choices now?

SS

My choices are still the same I guess.

1.I stay in this relationship and settle.In other words go back to the same thing I had before the A.Not sure I want this.

2.Get a D.
I am not ready to make this decission yet after all I have spent most all my life w/this man it is hard to walk away even w/all the pain.

3.Learn how to let go completely, without worrying about what he will do with his life.This is a hard one for me,I fear him going on and being very happy and me being very lonely and sad the rest of my life.

I am stuck,I cant seem to move forward.
The pain of the A has come back into my heart and it seems deeper than ever lately.
I am back to crying all the time,the anger is back and when we talk on the phone all we do is fight.

I just want to be happy,I mean really truly happy not the pretend smile I wear,not what I feel now, that all I do is go thru the motions of life.I want to feel alive again.

I know its up to me to do these things for myself but I cant seem to do it.I dont know why.

Ok now I am rambling on so its time to go.
Thanks SS for all your advise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: gingersnap ]</small>

I fear him going on and being very happy and me being very lonely and sad the rest of my life.

I am stuck,I cant seem to move forward.
The pain of the A has come back into my heart and it seems deeper than ever lately.
I am back to crying all the time,the anger is back and when we talk on the phone all we do is fight.

I just want to be happy,I mean really truly happy not the pretend smile I wear,not what I feel now, that all I do is go thru the motions of life.I want to feel alive again.


Ginger, I am WORRIED about you! You sound so much like I was a year ago. While things with my H and I are not a good as I would like, I have detached for my own sanity, health and well-being. I don't know if we will ever recover. But I know that if nothing else happens I have to make myself the best person I can be for ME and our children. How can you give to others if you cannot give to yourself? You cannot give away what you don't have. I know it's hard. It's so hard. But you have to force yourself to do it for you because you are worth it. If you don't, what's your alternative? What quality of life are you willing to make for yourself?

You have the courage to do this. You stood up to your H. You stood your ground. You moved away. Got a life and a new job. The list goes on...You have to learn to comfort yourself because it is you who will be in your life regardless of who else is or not.

I think I've mentioned this before but the two sources that have helped me when I feel as you do are:

1. The teachings of Dr. Wayne Dyer who says that problems and bad feelings exist because we choose to focus on them. They are just a perception. If we do not focus on them, they do not exist.

2. Let go and let God

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let Go, Let God!

Effective immediately, please be aware that there are changes you need to make in your life. These changes need to be completed in order that I may fulfill my promises to you – to grant you peace, joy and happiness in this life. I apologize for any inconvenience, but after all that I am doing, this seems very little to ask of you. I know, I already gave you the 10 Commandments. Keep them. But follow these guidelines too.

1. QUIT WORRYING. Life has dealt you a blow and all you do is sit and worry. Have you forgotten that I am here to take all your burdens and carry them for you? Or do you just enjoy fretting over every little thing that comes your way?

2. PUT IT ON THE LIST. Something needs to be done or taken care of. Put it on the list. No, not YOUR list. Put it on MY to-do list. Let ME be the one to take care of the problem. I can’t help you until you turn it over to me. And although my to-do-list is long, I am after all, God. I can take care of anything you put into my hands. In fact, if the truth were ever really known, I take care of a lot of things for you that you never even realize.

3. TRUST ME. Once you’ve given your burdens to me, quit trying to take them back. Trust in me. Have the faith that I will take care of all your needs, your problems, and your trials. Problems with the kids? Put them on my list. Problem with finances? Put it on my list. Problems with your emotional roller coaster? For my sake, put it on my list, I want to help you. All you have to do is ask.

4. LEAVE IT ALONE. Don’t wake up one morning and say, “Well, I’m feeling much stronger now. I think I can handle it from here.” Why do you think you are feeling stronger now? It’s simple. You gave me your burdens and I am taking care of them. I also renew your strength and cover you in my peace. Don’t you know that if I give you these problems back you will be right back where you started? Leave them with me and forget about them. Just let me do my job.

5. TALK TO ME. I want you to forget a lot of things. Forget what was making you crazy. Forget the worry and the fretting because you know I’m in control. But there’s one thing I pray you never forget. Please don’t forget to talk to me OFTEN! I love you. I want to hear your voice. I want you to include me in on the things going on in your life. I want to hear you talk about your family and friends. Prayer is simply you having a conversation with me. I want to be your dearest friend.

6. HAVE FAITH. I see a lot of things from up here that you can’t see from where you are. Have faith in me that I know what I am doing. Trust me, you wouldn’t want the view from my eyes. I will continue to care for you, watch over you, and meet your needs. You only have to trust me. Although I have a much bigger task than you, it seems as if you have so much trouble doing your simple part. How hard can trust be?

7. SHARE. You were taught to share when you were only two years old. When did you forget? That rule still applies. Share with those who are less fortunate than you. Share your joy with those who need encouragement. Share your laughter with those who haven’t heard any in such a long time. Share your tears with those who have forgotten how to cry. Share your faith with those who have none.

8. BE PATIENT. I managed to fix it so in just one lifetime you could have so many diverse experiences. You grow from a child to an adult, have children, change jobs many times, learn many trades, travel to so many places, meet thousands of people, and experience so much. How can you be so impatient then when it takes me a little longer than you expect to handle something on my to-do-list? Trust in my timing, for my timing is perfect. Just because I created the entire universe in only six days, everyone thinks I should always rush, rush, rush.

9. BE KIND. Be kind to others, for I love them just as much as I love you. They may not dress like you, or talk like you, or live the same way you do, but I still love you all. Please try to get along, for my sake. I created each of you different in some way. It would be too boring if you were all identical. Please know I love each of you for your differences.

10. LOVE YOURSELF. As much as I love you, how can you not love yourself? You were created by me for one reason only – to be loved and to love in return. I am a God of Love. Love me. Love your neighbors. But also love yourself. It makes my heartache when I see you so angry with yourself when things go wrong. You are very precious to me. Don’t ever forget that!

With all my heart, I love you.

God
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We love you too Ginger. We're behind you every step of the way.

{{{{{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}}}}}

This is your official kick in the pants.

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

I do need a kick in the pants,somedays I feel I am the only weak person on this forum,the only one that carries on so.

I dont know why I cant let go,does anyone know what is wrong w/me??

My H seems to have let go of what he did,the OW seems to have let go of what she did.But why can I not let go?? Why cant I move on.

Last night my D and SIL were over for dinner we were talking my D made a comment about sex and said its just sex(she did not mean about her dads A)any way I said but sex is what ruined my M and life.My SIL said to me GS I dont think it was the sex that did it I think it was the relationship he had w/OW that did it.
How true that statement was,and it is true it is the relationship he built w/OW that is so hard on me,because I saw what he could do if he wanted,giving of time,changing to be what she wanted yet in all the yrs I have known him he has NEVER changed for me,I have always done the changing or him.

I think its time for me to go to IC.
I cant go on like this much longer.I am dying inside.It is really getting harder and harder for me to find or see the person I once was.
I really miss the old me.

I dont know why I cant let go,does anyone know what is wrong w/me??

Why can't you?...It seems to me that you've told yourself for so long that you can't that you are actually believing it. What concentrate on what you can't do? How about telling yourself that you CAN? Look at what you have done for yourself and what you've been able to achieve.

Please forgive my brutal honesty. I have to ask: How long are you intending to do this to yourself? This is self-inflicted emotional abuse. How about giving yourself a timelimit? You are greiving the loss of your M as you knew it. Grief takes time granted. But are you going to let them destroy you? From what I've read over this board is that the best "revenge" for an affair is to lead a full enriched life anyway. Yes, they've hit you over the head with a sledgehammer. But are you going to take it from them an hit yourself with it? If so, how many times and how long will you do this to yourself before you say "Enough is enough"? Please do it sooner rather than later. You don't have to be the martyr for them and then say "Look at what they did to me".

I hope you know that my opinions come from concern for you and your welfare. Please remember these are my opinions only. You do not have to agree with them (or disagree). All I ask is that you consider what I'm saying to you and then choose what's best for you.

I, for one, would rather lose you on this board because you are doing so well that you no longer feel the desire to have to be here any more. I'd hate to see you spiral down out of our reach.

We're all behind you. If you won't do it for yourself, do it for us. We'd love to know you're smiling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

Thank you SAB

Maybe my life has had so much abuse it feels normal and I am afraid of what it will be like any other way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I did buy a book this weekend in hope of it helping me to deal with and understand my anger better.

I am trying to pull myself out of this rut.To look at all that I have in life instead of what I have lost.

I do not want OW to win,to get the best of me.I know that if I continue like this in a way it is like she did just that,and I know she is not worth it.

Each day I promise to try and let go,I know this will take me a while,after all here I sit almost 2yrs after dday and feel no better than the day I found out.
I do think alot of this has to do with the fact that my life has not changed,I know in order to recover fully there has to be change not only with me but with my H also.

Thanks again for all your support. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I tried to post a reply but it disappeared before I could send it.

my life has had so much abuse it feels normal and I am afraid of what it will be like any other way...my life has not changed

I know about fear and abuse. I lived and survived for the first 20 years of my life. It's a very difficult cycle to break when that's all you know. However abuse can only exist where fear is allowed. Do you want to live in fear? Or do you want to grow? You're right...she's NOT worth it! However I bet you she would laugh if she could see you now...

But I say to you that you've already done the scary part by striking out on your own. Yes you're hurting. But you have come through it. You didn't melt, explode, die or anything else. From here what is the worst thing that could possibly happen? Your H doesn't change or come back to you fully?

I'm going to give you two things to read and think about...

1. Homer McDonald's http://www.stopyourdivorce.com/

2. MWD's Getting Through to the Man You Love

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If someone told you that you could have better, more meaningful communication with your partner, hug him without his thinking sex was imminent, get him to become more involved with the kids, or even realize that, unlike the oven, the house isn’t self-cleaning, wouldn’t you want to know how? Of course you would. Well, Michele Weiner-Davis is about to let you in on her secrets.

Drawing on more than two decades of experience in helping couples make their relationships great and using her own twenty-something year old marriage as a testing ground for her techniques, Michele explains:
*Women’s biggest “beefs” about men
*Why blaming, nagging, and talking about feelings don’t work
*Why action-oriented methods are infinitely more effective
*How to talk so men will listen

Most important, Michele shows how every woman can become an expert at getting her man to be more responsive to the things she wants and needs in their relationship. So, if you’ve been at the end of your relationship rope and you’re ready to let go of the line, hang in there…solutions are right around the corner. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't mean to sound like I have a lot of answers, I definitely don't. I just pains me to know how much you hurt.

COME ON, GINGER. YOU CAN DO IT!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

Thank you once again SAB

I will read up on this,not for him but for me.

He came for a visit this week,it went better.
I did have a breakdown on Monday,not really about the A but about life in general.I do believe alot of my emotional problems right now are due to my hormones not in balance and I am taking steps to correct this now.I hope it helps me feel better and be better able to deal w/things.

I was different this visit,no A talk really,we went out to dinner ALONE no grandkids or kids this was a first in a long time.It felt strange and we seemed to struggle for things to talk about.We did some shopping he needed some new work pants,took the grandkids to a movie.I even cooked him a dinner he had been asking me for,for some time.He told me last night what a great time he had this visit.In my head I'm thinking "Sure why not your needs are being met and you feel happy".

I know this was a small step but one I guess I needed to take.Yes he still drank and tried to lie about how much,I just calmly let him know that if he wants me to trust him ever again he needs to learn that he must be honest about even the smallest things.

Thanks again for all the support.

Ahhh, hormones. That would explain a lot. 4 pregnancies too gave me a good example of what that's like. They're similar to kind of emotional rollercoaster we're on now except it's internal. I hope you get relief soon.

Baby steps are good even though he has a marathon to go. The positive things is that it seems to be in the right direction.

Dinner with no kids or grandkids? Sounds like a first date to me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm glad this visit went better. You have a lot of courage. More than I have.

You've done good kid. Keep smiling.

Please let me know what you think of the links.

Hi Ginger,

I worry - but that won't help you much. I agree with MWD (from SAB's suggestion) that action is usually a much better approach than inaction.

I suspect if you knew exactly what to do, you would do it. It's not knowing that is so darn hard, isn't it?

I believe from your post that during the dinner out, you noticed all the things that are not happening, and didn't take much pleasure from the fact that he took you out. If this is accurate, you are loosing your love for him, and it is only a matter of time before it is all gone, and you will be finished with him.

It is very difficult to look at what little good remains, when the bad has gone on for so long. In fact, it may be impossible for you to see good in your relationship, or in him right now.

I can see that he still provides some $$, and I count that as good. However, the emotional support is what you really desire, and you are not getting that.

I have seen SAB use the materials from MWD to good effect (180's) in her marriage. I encourage you to learn all you can, and perhaps you will find something else that can help you in your desire to heal your life.

When you moved, I for some reason thought that it would be plan B, no contact with your H. I hoped that would help him see what his loss would be if he refused to help in repairing the M.

From the things you describe, I think he really believes that it's just a temporary separation, and that *someday* things will be back to normal. Normal being - you do everything for him, and he does what he wants.

Please plan things for you, separate your life, and your happiness from the depression that haunts your near past. If your H died today, and you decided not to date for........say two years, you would go on with life, and you would heal. I believe you would find things to occupy your time, and you would come out of the pain, and you would be happy.

My suggestion with the recreation ideas is to do that even though your H is still around. Make a life for yourself. You don't have to wear the chains that have been forged for you. Please throw them off, and be free. If he learns to cope, take him back. If not, go on and become the person you want to be anyway.

I am not suggesting D, but I am speaking of emotional chains. You don't own his problems, and though you want to help him, you cannot do this FOR HIM.

In Matthew chapter 20, it records how Jesus called his first disciples. It records they left their nets "straightway. " They didn't ask to wait until after the fishing season, or even wait to make one more catch. They left straightway.

Make the changes you need to make. You don't need to wait for H. He can come, or he can stay, but you need to be on your way. God sent you to earth to be happy, and to succeed. Think about what you want. Think about what you would do, if the scenario mentioned above was true. What would you do different? Can you make those changes now?

What would be different?

I don't know all of it, or even much of it, but I can guess some of it.

You wouldn't spend time worrying what he is doing, who he is seeing, or how much he is drinking.

You would depend on yourself for everything. The ties would be cut, you would make it on your own.

You would find things to occupy your mind, you would do things for you.

Now, you make a list - I want to see what you come up with. What would you do differently?

Sometimes faith in God is so hard, but sometimes faith in ourselves is even more difficult. I have faith in you, and I don't think it is misplaced.

And in closing, smile, it's good for your face.

SS

SAB and SS

Thank you both for your post they help so much.

Yes the hormone thing,it is sad really you see I was going thru an early menopause not knowing not getting any doctors to listen to me and not knowing why I felt like I did or what was going on.Just about 2 days after my H told me of his A I got a call from the DR office confiming that I was indeed in menopause.Had I known this earlier I could have gotten what my body needed and who knows maybe the out come would be different.
But then I would have never met all the great people here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Any way I started a book I do think it is going to help me I have not gotten far and can already see me in what they are saying.

As for my list SS.
I would be strong,independant,self confident and self sufficant.
I would not look back but only forward.
I would not let him get me down.
I would know how to take care of me and not feel guilty for doing so.
I would have fun.
And I would not be afraid of the future.

It all looks easy seeing it there in black and white I wonder why it is not.


Well so far it looks like I am still on for a day off on Sat.to spend w/my old friend(exSIL) we have not seen each other for a long time and are looking forward to a fun day,lunch out,shopping and lots of talking I am sure.

Thanks again for the support,it really does help.

Your list sounds good. It reminds of MWD's Positive Mental Attitude (PMA). It's a great place to start baby steps of your own.

What SS mentioned about what if your H past away? What would your life be like? I thought of that also but didn't say it. I think what he's saying is act as if he is no longer a consideration in your life. I agree that you need to detach emotionally for your own sanity and well-being. Being like you are now is not healthy for you. It's time to get healthy by being selfish for a while. In your case, selfishness is good. When your stronger then you can consider giving again.

Take care and have fun.

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

I often have wished he would have died instead of handing me this hand to play.

I know that sounds mean but what I mean by it is that I could have handled death,I could have gotten answers to the why's,I can accept that death is really a part of life and I could have put our life together aside and moved on,I am not saying it would not have been hard but it would have been acceptable for me.
This is not.

A big problem for me is selfishness without guilt.I know that it is ok to think of me and do for me but then I feel like maybe I am not being a good mother or wife or grandmother by doing this.

I have a friend she was selfish everyone saw it but her,she never did without yet we all saw her family suffer.There were times they had no food,or money to pay the bills yet she always looked like a million bucks.She finally left her H and 5 kids to go be with a younger man,needless to say it did not work out and she found herself all alone in the world.
I fear that if I do to much for me I will become like her and I do not ever want that to happen.

I know what you mean on all counts. The kind of selfishness I'm talking about is not to a fault but the assertive kind where you don't have to play the victim or the martyr. Instead, you can stand up and say to the world, "I count too. I am worth it." That way there should not be guilt involved. Not, "Nobody matters but me". (I hate that.)

Maybe one of the things you can do for yourself is take an assertiveness training course. There are also excellent books you can get from the library or bookstore, depending on your preference, on the subject.

Do you feel guilty about moving away, getting a new job, making your own life apart from your H? That was assertive.

I understand what kind of selfishness you are talking about,I understand the difference but for me one thing I need to learn to overcome is knowing that I am not doing the "Its all about me thing" even when I am not.

Moving away.........no I dont feel guilty,I'm not sure if you remember but my H would always tell me you need to move.One time when I was here visiting back in Jan. he called me and told me to find and job and stay,he said it was because our S was acting up again,I never understood what me moving would accomplish where my S was involved.
I got tired of hearing this and decided to do what he asked of me,also back at the time I was thinking of moving my S had come home and said he wanted help,that he wanted to get of ****** so he could start over and get away from the people he knew.So a big part of my decision was in hopes of helping him however just 3 days before we were to leave he disapeared again.
He is now in rehab again but it has been a rough road for him,but I know that it is because of choices he made.It took me a long time to stop blaming myself for his drug use.

I know what you mean. I blamed myself for my grandfather's death for years because he gave his life in an attempt to protect me from the abuse I endured. That's how much he loved me. I've come to accept that it was G*D's will that his time had come (93 yo) and that he died doing everything that he loved doing--protecting me, taking care of my grandmother, being a kid a heart, and enjoying a cup of tea. I still miss him terribly after 22 years. But even through my tears I have to smile because I had the privilege of having unconditional love. I count the time I did have with him as one of my greatest blessings.

I know as a parent you feel every pain that your child endures. I took me every bit of strength and courage I had not to take out the surgeon who cut my baby with a surgical knife since I knew that he was going to save her life and did. Yes she suffered. But she would have suffered more without the surgery. I had to put my feelings aside and let her go through this so that she could have a better quality of life in the long run.

G*D I hate blame. Blame yourself for his decision? Did you hog tie him, pin him down and force him to take drugs? If the answer is no, then you have nothing to be ashamed of. As you said, those were his (bad) choices and now he's suffering the consequences of those choices. It doesn't make the pain any easier because you are his parent. It comes with the territory.

I do believe that it's time for you to suffer less so that your family can grow more. Your son is doing this now. Your H is beginning to reluctantly. Remember suffering can build character.

This may sound silly but I have an idea. What if you were to treat yourself like you would any other person? Pretend you are another self. Almost another entity as it were. How would you treat your other self differently? If you have a hard time with selfishness, how about treating yourself with generosity?

I do,do things for myself please dont think that I dont.

Its funny all these yrs H would tell me to stop doing so much for the kids,it was my fault they had problems because I spoiled them to much.Yet here he sits,telling me how worried he is about our S,yet just a few months ago he was the one that told me I was not to do anything for him or let him come home.A year ago he sent our D away to live w/her brother telling me this was what was going to happen he did not want her turning out like her brother.Yet just 3wks ago he buys her a new car.Sure she has to pay insurance on it which she should but I dont get it.

Last night he told me that he did not believe he could ever be all that I needed and that maybe I should look for someone else.He said maybe we should not talk to each other for a week and see how we feel then.

Makes me wonder if he has started the A back up,or found someone new.

He has not called today,so I guess I will see if this is what he wants.

I say to myself,he cant be what I need,or he does not want to have to change or try to be what I need.

I saw him change for her,why could he do it for another woman but not me??

Last night he told me that he did not believe he could ever be all that I needed and that maybe I should look for someone else. He said maybe we should not talk to each other for a week and see how we feel then.

Now's your chance. This the perfect opportunity to see what your life will be like as if he didn't exist. Let's try an experiment for a week. Let's focus all your energy on you and what makes you feel good. It's only a week. If it doesn't work out you've lost nothing. Being around him is draining you. It's time to rebuild and pamper yourself. Maybe think of it as a Ginger vacation.

I saw him change for her,why could he do it for another woman but not me??

Because he gets a good reaction from you and you'll pine away for him anyway, even if he doesn't do anything. Maybe if he thought your focus wasn't on him...

Well it is after 3 in the afternoon and he has not called me at all.

I got a letter from a laywer for a class action suit H is involved in and they need him to contact them right away so I have no choice but to let him know.

We really dont talk much anyway,I added up the minutes just for fun it is only about 10min.a day.10 min of his time is all I am worth.

I do not usually call him he calls me unless I have something I need to discuss with him about our finances.