Hello all -

This is my first post to the board, and I'm looking for some guidance.

W and I have been married for almost 5 years now. We have one son 18 mos old - the result of infertility treatment. We recently tried for a second and failed. Things have been pretty tense for a while. We've had several arguments regarding our emotional situation and I guess they've never been resolved.

However, things over the last month seemed to be improving. Sexual contact kind of started - but has yet to be initiated by her - the last time was sept 03. All this being said, I've had this strange feeling in my gut that something wasn't right, because I really didn't feel that W was very interested in intimacy with me. I've asked about it and have been told that its still related to our miscarriage - March 04. I really haven't tried to press the issue, thinking that things might improve over time.

W travels quite a bit (2-3 days per week), and works in the marketing field. She lives by her laptop and cell phone. In the past she had casually mentioned some associates/clients that were a little flirtatious, but I accepted that it was harmless, and let it go since she is in sales and is such an outgoing person.

This weekend for us was wonderful. We got along great, and talked about our vacation last week in FL. The in-laws came up to visit for the day on Sat. Sun. night I suggested a bath for the two of us and she said she had to pack(she left this a.m.)for FL - business. At bedtime she told me that she would pack in the morning. I was a little disappointed, but understood that she was tired.

Later, I just had this sinking feeling that something wasn't right. I went downstairs to watch some tv and her laptop from work was there.

Is this where I screwed up????

I opened her email looking for a flight confirmation for our trip this weekend. I then noticed some emails from one of her former clients - so I took a peek hoping that my bad feeling would go away. It didn't.

What I found were some emails between the both of them discussing possible get togethers - breakfast in bed - emails signed "kisses" - pics from our florida vaca. of our son and her (I wasn't in any of them - and one in particular that really got my heart pounding.

Her former client suggested that they get together in Chicago after the fourth. She was going to be there on the 7th and he was going to tell his wife that he missed his flight. Then they could be together. My W responded that she wasn't sure about the emotional effects of this or if it were purely sexual.

My heart was pounding so badly that I thought my head would explode. I (mistake) went upstairs and woke her up and asked if we could talk. I asked her if she was seeing someone else. She finally told me that she had a "crush" on a former associate but that was all it was. We went downstairs to talk so we wouldn't wake up the baby.

When asked, she told me that this had been going on for a while, but she and her buddy both understood that it would never go to the next level (he's married too)- although they've both discussed it. They would trade emails (I read most of them, but I'm sure she deleted the juicy ones if there were any), text messages, and cell phone calls. In fact, she sent me to get gas in her car and to the store to return something and she spoke to him while I was gone. She was bitterly angry for snooping in her email, which I can't blame her for, but there is a bit of history to that. I should have trusted her and stayed away from her email, and I am wrestling with that as I type this post.

Where are we? I feel lost. We're not really on very good speaking terms right now.

She told me that "its been taken care of" this morning. I really want to believe her.

Homer,

I can hear your Wife saying," Doh! I've been caught."

Sorry for the Simpsons reference.

Of course your W is angry with you. She's been caught lying to you. Remember two types of lie: commission as well as omission (omitting facts). She's been caught in an Affair (A). Did she admit to sexual contact, kissing anyhting physiacl?

Whether it's turned physical or not, it's an A just the same. The e-mails sound as though they've gone past EA to me but for now assume it's just an EA. When and if you get more proof, you can disclose it then.

Don't expect your W to be 100% truthful with you. Take all of her words with a grain of salt. The saying, Actions Speak Louder than Words, is true here.

I'd sit her down and say that you are honestly sorry you felt it necessary to look at e-mails. Tell her about the Fl ticket confirmation. Tell her how you feel about the e-mails that you read. Sad, angry, hurt worried whatever your thinking.

Tell her that you feel uncomfortable with continued contact with the former client especially in light of rh e-mail about meeting in Chicago. Does she know that you saw this one?

Your W said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She told me that "its been taken care of" this morning. I really want to believe her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't believe her. Tell her that you need something tangible to help restore the lost trust. Talk to her about the concept of MB's No Contact (NC) letter. She writes you mail it. The NC letter should be short and not so sweet:

Mr Z.
My H knows of our relationship. I have decided that we can no longer be in contact with you because our relationship crossed marital boundaries. I will not attempt to contact you and please do not attempt to contact me. Any attempt at contact and I'll need to inform my H.

That's a rough one but it gives you the message.

I know your anxious and jumpy right now. I felt like a hopped up dope addict looking for my next fix when I discovered my W's "relationship"

OK you are in the same boat I was in. You found some evidence and you immediately approached W with it. My guess is that she only admitted to guilt as to the direct evidence that you presented. INW noe evidence no confession. Each time I got more evidence I approached W. I should have been patient and collected all. My W lied to me for years that the relationship was more than an EA, that it was also PA.

Back off a bit. Let her actions tell you if she really took care of it or whether she's in the "fog" of an A.

Try to relax. Work out to relieve some stress. If you start to see signs of depression go immediately to the Dr. and get on anti-depressants. I ignoreed this advice when I was a newbie and dearly regretted it. Thought I could handle on my own. WRONG!

Again what exactly did W admit to. And what did she mean by "its benn taken care of."

cwmac

cw -

Thanks for the reply and the simpsons reference. Gave me a brief chuckle.

Right now things are really tense. I think she knows that I saw the Chitown email. She's assuming that I saw all of them. I really want to believe that there has been no physical contact, so for now I'll make that leap of faith.

I may have assumed more than actually was true, and I feel like I'm trying to trick her into lying to me. This breaks my heart. It shouldn't be this way

Over the last few months, we've had issues. She seemed to think that I was resentful of her travel schedule, but I really am not. She's told me numerous times that she doesn't deserve me and that she's being unfair for getting immersed in her career. I think this is where our communication started to break down. We are two different types of people. She lives to work, and I work to live. Big deal. I still love her more than anything. Maybe she doesn't understand how proud I am of her for all she's accomplished.

I too have taken a step back. We rarely have "date night", and she misses it. I miss it too. I can make no excuses - I've failed her in that respect. We've talked about it and fought about it and things get better for a while, but they always seem to go back to stagnant. This is killing us.

She told me today that she has ended the relationship. I have to believe her. She told me she was disappointed to lose a valuable sounding board in her profession. When I asked her what would have happened if I never found out she said that it would just have developed into a friendship. Maybe so, but it takes 2 to tango.

Understand one thing - I love her and I don't want to lose her. We're both guilty of breaching each others' trust, and we're both pointing fingers at each other. I don't want to lose my family, hers and mine and ours. I have no choice but to try and right things on my end. Her end is up to her. I don't know where we go from here, nor does she. We're either going to separate or try and reconcile. I'm afraid she's leaning toward separation because she thinks nothing will be "fixed" like in the past, and we'll be back in the same place a month or two from now.

Homer,

From your first post

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I found were some emails between the both of them discussing possible get togethers - breakfast in bed - emails signed "kisses" - pics from our florida vaca. of our son and her (I wasn't in any of them - and one in particular that really got my heart pounding.

Her former client suggested that they get together in Chicago after the fourth. She was going to be there on the 7th and he was going to tell his wife that he missed his flight. Then they could be together. My W responded that she wasn't sure about the emotional effects of this or if it were purely sexual. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the last post you said that you're W responded with this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She told me today that she has ended the relationship.... She told me she was disappointed to lose a valuable sounding board in her profession. When I asked her what would have happened if I never found out she said that it would just have developed into a friendship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These two paragraphs don't fit together. You describe inappropriate e-mails and she responds with that it was a business relationship with a mentor (sounding board) and that it was going to develope into a relationship. Huh???

From what you described it is a business relationship that has already turned into a friendship which may have already developed into either an emotional or physical affair or both.

Then you said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to believe her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No you really don't have to trust her. She has to earn your trust. I don't see anything in your posts that shows that she deserves your trust.

and

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We're both guilty of breaching each others' trust, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see her guilt. I don't see yours. How are you guilty? Because you read her e-mails?

Your wife is just mad that you've caught her lying to you. BTW, did you know that there are two types of lies: commission and omission.

Commission: Your W says that she's flying to Chicago and flies to Miami

Ommission: You ask her how her trip went and she answers," Oh it was OK. Same old story nothing exciting." Most of that was true. It was just another sales convention or whatever, but she omits telling you that she met OM for, dinner & dancing. ( I'm keeping it tame here)

Don't let your Wife turn this around on you and don't you let her. She'll try to turn you into the big hideous green envy monster.

You closed by saying...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understand one thing - I love her and I don't want to lose her. .... I don't want to lose my family, hers and mine and ours.... We're either going to separate or try and reconcile. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. Then you need to fight for her. Don't give up and do the passive aggressive thing were you move out. Stay in the house. If she wants to seperate make her move. Don't help her by moving out.

You need to do whatever it takes to bring her back to the marriage. Right? It's called Plan A.

You need to understand that if she's involved in an affair and I believe she is, she's not thinking clearly. She's in the "fog" as we like to say around here on the MB board. She has probably built up a giant rationalization as to why her behavior is acceptable. She's built him up and torn you down. It's like an addiction.

Plan A is all about ending the affair so that the wayward spouse can start to think clearly again.

How do you end it? First of all by not believing her crap. Excuse me.

The best way to end an affair is by exposing it. Is the OM married? Do you know how to get in touch with her. Nothing ends a MM's affair than his W finding out.

Most married men don't want to leave their wives they jus twant some fun, excitement and ego boosting on the side. There called Addition Affairs vs. Replacement Affairs.

Show your wife that you cherish her and your marriage. Tel her that you're willing to go to marriage counseling.

If she brings up seperation ask her for some time in marriage counseling to try and save the marriage. Tell her that way if you do decide to split you can both tell yourselves that you gave it your all.

This will all puzzle and frustrate her to no end so don't be surprised if she's angry. Remember she's temporarily insane.

Read up on Plan A & B and Radical Honesty up on the main MB board under Basic Principles along with POJA, LB's meeting spouses ENs, etc.

How long has she known this guy?

Have any of her habits changed? ie wearing sexier underwear? working out? more concerned with her looks?

Affairs usually occur in women who have changes or issues in their lives. The infertility issue is just one of these.

Anyway I've said enough. What is your plan?

cwmac

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

cw -

I'm not exactly sure when the two of them met. I can remember hearing his name in the past when she would talk about her business meetings. I can't recall all of the others, over the years there have been many clients that have come and gone. There were 3 or 4 of her clients that she visited in Chicago. They were all with the same company. They would all go to dinner together and have drinks. She calls it "entertaining". No big deal to me, in her field and with her company its commonplace.

He left her client company (I don't know when, probably recently) and moved out of IL with his wife. I don't think they have any children.

I know that she maintains close contact with her clients, that's what makes her so successful at her job. She provides a level of service to them that is becoming well known in her field and with current and former clients.

Their relationship -
I think this was a close working relationship that developed into a working friendship. I have no problem with this. I have no idea how much one on one time they've had together. I thought they were always together in a group setting.

When the more intimate conversations started, I don't know. The part I wrestle with the most is that we have been working on our marriage for a while, and we were both in agreement that things were improving. Then I find this out. This was going on while I thought things were getting better.

She's telling me that this was a "childish crush", and nothing more. I have a hard time believing this. At the very least this is an emotional affair and I know it. She's sticking to the "crush" theory.

Her end to the "crush" -
She told me that she contacted him and told him that she could not continue down this path emotionally with him. It was no longer appropriate for them to be acting this way. How she contacted him I don't know.

Guilt -
Her laptop belongs to her company, and she uses it for work (apparently not entirely). We all know how email is - everybody sends personal email on company time, its just a fact. I can't really justify snooping around in her email, but I did. I feel guilty for even being in there. Its been years since I read any of her email, and the last time I told her about it - she was really pissed, but she told me that she had nothing to hide.

Lies -
If she's lying to me then it falls in the "omission" category - definitely. I'd ask her about meetings/trips/etc. and would get a generic response. We fought about this once and she told me that she didn't tell me all about her job because I wouldn't understand. I told her that it didn't matter whether or not I understood. Talking was the important thing. I think what she found in OM was someone who knew her field and "understood" everything. I guess I should have been a marketing major, then I might have a chance. Sorry, that was bitter

I have no interest in contacting OM's spouse. I'm just not that kind of person. He's the one that has the problem, not me. If he continues with this kind of behavior he can wreck his own marriage, and then wonder what happened. He doesn't need my help.

Suggested counseling two months ago - she wasn't interested. Going to try again.

Changing habits -
No sexier underwear that I've noticed. Funny thing - She was in CA for business and sent him an email - she forgot to pack panties and was on her way out to shop for some. I don't remember what his response was, I'm sure it was good. She started working out about a month ago. Hmmm. She's always been concerned with her looks, but she has been buying alot of new clothes and shoes lately for her trips.

My plan -
Right now I don't know. I'm still angry and hurt. I would like to have some alone time when she gets back tomorrow, but that's not a possibility. Her Gma is coming to make the trip to OK with us. We definitely have some serious issues to work out and I personally feel that we need a third party to help guide us. We've tried before on our own and still ended up here.

Last night I tried to call her (our son was chattering at the baseball game on tv - it was priceless). No answer on the cell. She was out to dinner with a client (female). She finally called on her way back to the hotel. She's still pissed about the email snooping. She said she would have to call me back when she got to the hotel in 15 min. An hour and a half later I tried her cell. No answer. Called information to get the number of her hotel. She wasn't registered at the first one. She was at the second hotel I called. Got her room. No answer - went to recording. Dialed the front desk and asked for the OM. Not registered - Why do I do stupid things like this????? Its killing me inside. Finally spoke to her and told her that I was worried about her - this I swear is true. I expected a call in 15-30 min and got none. Car wreck? DUI? Worse? No apology offered.

I told her either we need to fix things or we're done. Can't remember who was moving out probably me. I was really po'd. I really hate losing my cool - I do and stay the stupidest things.

She calls this morning - I don't know why. She has nothing to say when I ask her. Do you want me to say something? I say. Her response - You did last night - fix it or I'm gone.

cw - I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to write. It means alot. I don't know where we go from here, but I want to fight for our marriage even if it kills me. I want it that bad.

I need to try and get some date nights on the calendar. We need to try and find some common ground.

We have this trip this weekend. Flying out Thurs. a.m. and coming back Sun. I was looking forward to seeing her dad & stepmom, but I don't know if I can go through with the trip. I don't want it to me miserable for the both of us. I suppose I should just suck it up and go.

I'll try and read up on A and B. I just need a little sanity. Will try and lay low, but I hate being so suspicious of things.

Thanks again

Hommer,,,,

I have to ask,,,,,, Why do you feel guilty about her e mail??? You had a gut feeling something was wrong. It was natural for you to confirm it.
I had my gut feeling,,, and trust me I invaded alot more than her e mail,,, followed her around with camera,, pulled all records,, and guess what??? Despite her telling me that OM was just a friend she talked to,, I found evidence of a EA/PA. Even when confronted with the evidence she denied it... Acouple of days later and she began to spill all the gory details of her affair.

My point is this you are the husband, you are the protector of your family. You know by gut when something is different about your wife. It is your right to know if your wife is involved with someone else.
I think you wish you wouldnt have checked the mail because of what you discovered.
I felt similar,,, but I know without disclosure I would have went mad knowing something is wrong but not knowing something is wrong. Make sense?
It is textbook for her to say hes a friend,,,, mine did. She will do anything to conceal the details of her affair. Out of guilt on her part and out of not loosing you.
My wife said "I will end it" ha ha after all the lies she told me no way. I picked up the other receiver to the phone and said call him right now. I listened to her tell the OM it was over and she wished she never met him,, ended it by saying never call me again. I felt assured it was over,,,, guess what they have talked on the phone several times since then. I just want you to understand the capabilities of a WW. I will never come to terms with the way my wife was able to lie to me so easy without remorse.
Trust me if anything you should be very worrysome of your wife. If you are like most of us BH's you will find there is alot more to this OM and your W.

eric -

Thanks for your two cents. I guess a part of me doesn't regret looking into her email. If I hadn't, I don't know how long or far it would have gone until I found out. I still don't know how far it actually went, or is still going.

You're exactly right - I do have a right to know what is going on with my family, and try and protect our interests. W and I fought extremely hard to have a child and I will do everything in my power to protect him.

Got off the phone about an hour ago with her. Told her that we needed to talk about alot of things. I asked her exactly what void this guy is filling for her - no answer yet on that one. Probably forthcoming.

She keeps asking me what my decision is. I told her that I have already made my decision. I don't want to end our marriage. I told her that this is not my decision, and asked her what her hang up is, what has she decided? After all, this is not a me decision, it is a we decision.

She's not sure if we should separate. I asked her what that meant. Was it that she has already made up her mind, and just needed the right reason? Or does she want to not separate and work on things. She doesn't know. I told her to think about it.

Forgot to add this:

She was also pretty quiet during our conversation. Lots of dead air time. Before we hung up she says "I love you" I said "I know you do". Hurts to not tell her.

I also told her in great detail about my day yesterday and today - everything my son and I did after work, and all about my work day. I asked her what her day today was like. Her response: "Meetings and errands" That's it?????

This is going to take a while.

I know she hasn't completely cut off the OM. My fault for not pressing her harder or asking for proof. However, could I really believe anything at this point? I don't know.

Hommer,,,,
Understand that I am not saying hound your wife... Do not keep trying to get her to admit anything. You have to remain a stunning man to your wife and a wonderful father to your son. Its tricky you must be delicate. To continue for a confession from your wife is simply not going to happen,, it is also a major LB. I think u have acted twice as good as I did. Ofcorse I only came to MB after I fully knew abut the affair. There are some things I would have done different,, but are irrelevant now.
I feel very strong that your wife has not come clean,, she is acting identicle to my wife.
You have to take her defense mech. out of the equation,,, IE: when she hears of you checking on her,,, "I told you the truth what you are doing is going to destroy us".... again a GRAIN OF SALT....ALL FOG TALK. When undeniable evidence surfaces it will give her a reality check,, she will not say u destroyed us,,, she has now been faced with the fact that you know.
When my wife finally accepted there was no more defense for her actions she broke into the biggest cry and began to pray for forgiveness.
It seems with alot of WW's they cannot truly express how really sorry they are until the BH knows about the affair.
I didn't ask to hear the details of my wifes affair and I know it was gut tearing for her to tell me,, but she insisted,, she said she wanted all the lies to come out. I have not taken it well at all and made some poor decisions dealing with it.
I can only tell you what mistakes I have made and try to help you.
Remember be loving to your wife, assure her of your love. Also keep a firm tab on her,, she has all the signs of a WW in a cloud of fog.
good luck,,,, and god bless you and your family.

eric -

Definitely not going to hound her. That would just make her more defensive and push her farther away. I am trying to avoid that.

Going to offer all the conversation she wants. If she wants to talk, I'm here. I already told her that if she wants to work things out it could get painful for both of us. "Brutally honest" was one term that I think I used.

Its really hard to keep your cool when W keeps bringing up the same things like "I've begged you for years" and "we'll just end up the same sooner or later". Its like a broken record.

She also told me today that she didn't think I would ever be able to let go of this. I told her I didn't understand, because if she told the truth and there was really nothing going on, I would have nothing to fume about. No answer. There has to be more to it.

What she doesn't realize is that no matter how bad this is or what the end result is I will move past it. I have to for my own sanity. Timing is just the issue.

Once again all fog talk....
but in a sense some could be very reasonable.

My wife still believes her affair has doomed us. Has said she wished I would have never found the evidence of her affair.... some fog... and some truth.
I think she does believe I will never forgive her and it will eat me up in the long run, but that is what I have to deal with.
On the other hand if I would have remained blind and not have exposed the affair it is unlikely she would have ended it herself.
Your wife is showing that she loves you,,, yes in a different way but all she wants to do is not loose you. She cannot see you forgiving her, that is her guilt talking.
I will have to say it is not easy, you dont sweep it under the rug.
The aftermath is so damaging that it has and still does feel hopeless sometimes.
You have made it clear you want your marriage, you have also admitted to your faults in your marriage. Not that an affair is ever inevidible but I have had to accept the cold fact that I played a part in my wife affair.
What happens to us in life is almost allways due to the decisions we make,,, some blame other people, it just happened nobodys fault, wrong place wrong time... but the fact is when I reflect I know I made some bad decisions that put my wife in an environment where she made her decision to be unfaithful.

I will say this when I was at your stage I was consumed by just finding the truth I did not even care about how she was able to betray me, even as obvious as it was. You are being very strong.
I feel you and your wife will get through this because it definately takes 2 strong spouses to do it.
keep it up... your doing great.

Personally, I don't feel like I'm doing so great. I don't feel very strong, either. Last night at home alone after my son went to bed was the worst.

I keep playing over and over in my mind some of the things that she has said recently. She wants another child - not an inexpensive proposition given our situation. A few weeks ago we were talking about going to NC to see a friend. She was going to schedule a couple of appointments in NC that she could take care of for work while we were there. Guess where OM lives - NC. Probably not too far from where we were going to be, but I haven't checked and I don't want to.

I pray regularly. Last night I prayed more than I have in years. I'm not a particularly religious person, but I do have strong faith. Hope it helps.

My wife is a remarkable woman. I never thought that she would do this. I pray that somehow I was wrong about this whole thing, but I do feel like she's in a fog. I'm there too - don't know which way to jump.

Mr. H, I feel that need to interject a few thoughts here.

your W is equivocating pure and simple. she'll say anything at this point to prove to herself and you that this is all in your imagination or worse yet, your fault. She will convince herself that you've forced to her into doing all of this...and make no mistake...she has cheated and probably has been cheating for a while. So please, don’t make the mistake of lying to yourself.

Also, accept NO responsibility for her cheating. Remember, while you may bear some responsibility for the state of the marriage, good or bad, to cheat was a conscious decision made by her and only her; believe it or not, it has nothing to do with you.

As for her responses to you, no matter how stupid and ridiculous they are, now is the time for you to be in control of the one aspect of the relationship you can control; yourself. So no yelling, screaming, crying or begging. Now is the time to remain calm, cool and in control of your self. No matter how angry you are and how hurt you are.

Say what you have to say but be clear and logical about it. If she raises her voice, don’t engage! She will try to put you in the wrong this way. To prove to herself that you really are a bad person and deserve what she’s done to you.

My friend you’ve already put a tacit ultimatum on the table to her. In doing so you’ve complicated this matter even more. “Either we fix this or we’re done.” Cardinal rule is don’t say it if you don’t mean it…and if you do say it think long and hard about what it is you really want.

Last thoughts. Spy, spy, spy then spy some more! You have more then a right to know. With an infant child’s future at stake it’s almost an obligation!

Also, tell the OM’s wife. Why? Do some reading around here and you’ll come to understand that nothing destroys the romance of these nasty little interludes like the cold light of truth. Shine light on the little soul mates and they scurry for cover just like cockroaches.

Expect nothing but lies from your W. You can believe nothing of what she will say to you and so don’t expect anything resembling truth or sincerity at the beginning.

You can win this battle but to do will take time and effort. Educate yourself. Read everything you can about the subject, and be prepared. You’re about to go on a nasty ride so buckle up.

Good luck.
coach

Homer,
Sorry that I haven't been araound today, Sounds like alot has happened in the last 24 hours.

Eric & Coach have stepped in and taken my place today with some great advice.

To repeat:

The affair is not your fault. Yes you contributed to the state of the marriage but it's your wife that made the decision and is now rationalizing her behavior. it was her choice.

Here is a sample of her rationalization...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've begged you for years" and "we'll just end up the same sooner or later". Its like a broken record.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She also told me today that she didn't think I would ever be able to let go of this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see how she's putting this all on you. You 'll never change. You 'll never forgive.

In my case I had at least 12 oppurtunities to have affairs over the years and never took the leap.

Stay calm. I know it sounds impossible. You're anxious. You're jumpy. There's too much adrenaline in your system.

Do whatever you can to minimize this. Do you work out? Do you run, swim? If you do go twice as far tonight. If you din't start.

I hate to even bring this up but I will. If I were in your shoes and I was 2 yrs ago. I would immediately go see you Dr and tell him your anxious/ depressed and get on an AD. AD's will flatten out the mood. There won't be any peaks but there won't be any huge vallrys either.

MB veterans gave me this advice and I ignored them. Please don't make the same mistake that I did. I really regret it. I could have handled the whole discovery thing better.

I was so amped up that I would confront my W as each piece of new evidence came in. That, too, was a major mistake. it is better to sit back and collect the evidence and when you think you have everything then confront. It makes it tougher to deny or excuse.

I agree with Coach. Spy, spy and spy some more.

You're wife's behavior and comments tell me that she's hiding something major.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She also told me today that she didn't think I would ever be able to let go of this. I told her I didn't understand, because if she told the truth and there was really nothing going on, I would have nothing to fume about. No answer. There has to be more to it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct.

I did the same thing except it wasn't e-mails. It was cell records. She lied about the frequency so i knew somehting was going on.

I went to the local Radio Shack and bought a $100 (best $$ I've ever spent) voice activated recorder. It hooks up to your telephone line and records both sides of the conversation. Find a tele. jack that is behind a big piece of furniture or under the guest bed, whatever.

I heard my W talking to the OM. Then and only then did she admit to a relationship.

Unfortunately I hadn't waited long enough and so I never had any evidence of a PA so she didn't have to admit to that. Well she finally did 18 months later after a false recovery.

So be patient which I know will be near impossible. I've been there.

Coach is also right about you ultimatum. Not good but too late now. If she brings it up play it down. Say that you were upset and tell her that you love her and that you want to work things out. Offer to go to MC. (No Man likes this but it's a must to help save the M)

Tell her that this is the "wake up call of a lifetime" and you are a new man. Then show her that you are that new man.

Don't scream yell or show any anger. deal with her clamly. She'll probably get mad at you for handling it so well. She wants you to be angry, to yell, to make ultimatums. It makes her rationalization of the affair all that much easier.

She's said some things that actually give me hope. She does fee very guilty. That's good. Otherwise she could more easily walk away.

Keep in mind that most married men do not want to run off with their affair partners. Yes it happens but usually they want another woman on the side. It's called an Additional Affair. He want your W in addition to his. Two women is great for his ego. He probably has very low self esteem in reality although on the outside he may appear to be the big successful exec.

So.... Deep breaths and calm tone are in order.

I'm rooting for ya.

cwmac

Homer,
One more thing re: the Radio Shack item. In most states it is illegal to use these to record w/out the written permission of both sides. So if you get a tape of your W talking to the OM, do not use it as direct evidence.

Do not tell your W about the tape and definitely do not let her listen to it. You'll want to confront her with it, but don't. Use the info gathered to get additional corrobrating evidence.

For example, she calls him late at night when you're asleep to tell him that she'll meet him on the next business trip to Ohio. You now have a leed as to where you can get more evidence. You follow me.

You'll need the recorder later on during recovery to insure NC.

Have you looked at her cell bills?

cwmac

Not really much to add to CW and coaches advice...
CW was one of the main contributers in helping me deal with D Day.
I might also add that the gps tracking device is awesome for monitoring a WW.
Even though I know my wife has accepted phone calls from OM since D day,, I know she has not made any physical contact thanks to the GPS tracker I put under the tire well of her car.
I check it every morning before I leave for work. Talk about reassurance it feels like everytime I check her activities and see there is no suspicious activity or locations I feel more and more secure that the A is over. Technology is amazing.

I know you do not feel strong and it would be hipocritical for me to say I have been strong.
I just want you to try as hard as you can to not make the same mistakes,,,
I was also reluctant to visit DR. I felt I could deal with it alone... WRONG.
When the nurse weighed me and I saw I dropped from 195 lbs to 170 lbs I knew my health had become an issue. Appetite and sleep ,,,,, I neglected both of them for 3 weeks... I was a wreck. Lexapro was perscribed to get me smoothed out.
Another huge mistake I made was allways comparing myself to OM. I felt inferior to him. It took some FWW on MB a while to get it through my head that there was no comparison.
I LB'd the heck outta my wife by asking her what she saw in him that she didnt in me. Not even she could make sense out of it,,, she didnt know herself. She was dooped and clouded. She would tell me that she asked herself the same question.
Point I am trying to make here is do not dwell on The OM,, he is no comparison,,, he is no Knight in shining armour. You are the man she married, she married you for being you. This will all come back to her.
One last thing,,,, When you feel like doing something stupid IE: the little voice! Think about what CW and Coach said. Print out their advice,,, it helped me prevent from making even more stupid decisions.
You are strong,,, you are a good husband. You will get through this. It will test you to the core of your being but is possible.

coach, eric, cw -

Thanks for the advice. Last night was tough. Had softball with friends and their company helped. I haven't discussed my situation with anyone yet, and don't plan to outside this board.

Cell phone records-
I'll have to figure out how to get ahold of those. We have a joint account, but her phone records go directly to the president of her company. Man that would be an awkward call, and probably unsuccessful.

If she's with someone else, its when she's out of town. No way to track that via GPS. Cell phone and email are really the only hard evidence I could collect at this point. Did make a phone call to FL to her hotel and ask for the OM's room. He wasn't registered, not there. I really doubt I have access to the computer for a while. Unfortunately, her work laptop is the only computer we have in the house, and she takes it everywhere with her.

Had a thought, but I don't know if its possible. Is there a way to intercept their email? I'm no computer expert, but if they were still emailing could I somehow get copies sent to me without her knowing? I don't know the legal or proprietary ramifications of it.

Can't record phone calls between them. She's too smart to call him from the home phone. He would never call her at the house either. This is the perfect setup for her, so easy to conceal.

I don't have the funds to have her followed. Imagine the PI bill for weekly trips to FL, Chicago, California, Wisconsin, Connecticut, Rhode Island. Get my drift?

I may just have to sit back a bit and wait. I'll try and gather what I can, but I'll also have to try and work things out with her at the same time. Kind of makes me feel two faced, but I know its necessary.

Also -

Haven't had the time to work out yet. I did start again a couple of weeks ago, but haven't been able to get back to the weights since. My job keeps me really busy all day and that helps. Thankfully she hasn't called me at the office. 90% of the time I feel ok emotionally. I'm not really moping around or feeling sorry for myself, and I have you guys to thank for that. I'm a little uneasy about the AD's to be honest. The biggest problem is that my diabetes suddenly went out of whack. I'm working hard on that one. I can't afford to have a problem right now. My son depends on me too much. Don't worry, I'll beat it.

Was going to call the OM's wife this morning. I forgot which city in NC they lived in, so I checked the White Pages for his name. Too many results (40 pages, 200 or so listings). Bagged it for now until I get his address.

I never have or never will compare myself to him. He's a weasel, I'm not. I'm trying to fight for something that he can't understand. He thinks nothing of getting involved with someones W and destroying a family. Sad.

I've done alot of things that I regret at this point. The ultimatum was wrong. I knew better, but I was pissed. I have that under control now. I downplayed that yesterday. I wish that I had kept my mouth shut Sunday night and just sat back and gathered. After the Chicago trip, I could have confronted her. Instead, I went to her right away. No point in second guessing, I just have to keep moving forward with the situation as is.

Sorry, I tend to get a little long winded. It helps me though.

There are e mail monitoring software products out there,, I would reccommend the keystroke recording software, whether its e mail or documents (a letter perhaps) it will record all keystrokes your wife types on her comp, as far as intercepting the e mail im not sure about that one.
Problem is if your wife is pretty keen on the comp it is possible she may discover the keystroke recorder,, I have read about them and they say absolutely undetectable by anyone but yourself,,, ahhhhh I dont know it may not be detectable but its risky.
You know your wife,,,you detected her change in behavior it told you something was wrong. You will get the truth.

Homer,
Here's an idea on the cell phone. I did it to my W bc she had thrown away 5 out of every 6 pages of the bills to try and hide it.

Most cell phone companies allow you to look at your bill online. Most people still don't know this. Go to your providers web page. Go to the set user/account set up page.

For now assume that your wife hasn't set up a web account. Basically you set up her account but with a user name and password of your choice and your own e-mail address. Usually all you need is the account number (you said its a joint account so u have it) and a social security number or the last 4 digits of it.

It was too easy. Hopefully your cell provider is just as stupid.

Lately this is important for everyone bc most providers in order to save $$ are no longer listing all the calls on the monthly paper bill. To see the call log you have to register and view on the web.

I understand about not telling a sole about your situation. MB was my sole support from DDay1 to DDay2. Even today only 3 other people know not counting the 4 involoved (OM, OM'sW, myW and me)

IMHO, the fewer that know the better. When you a BS is around people that know the feelings of huliliation and shame can be overwhelming especially early in discovery and recovery.

Of course Harley says that if the WS won't end the affair then you need to disclose to people that you think by their knowledge will help end the affair.

Even with this general advice, MB staff typically recommends to start with the inner circle and work outwards until it works.

Start with OP's spouse
then WS parents
then siblings
then very close friends
then possibly supervisor at work, if the affair is work related

Notice how I didn't mention any of your family or friends. Telling your parents does no good in most cases. Your spouse won't feel pressured by their knowledge. Just makes them angry and unforgiving. "I told you not to marry him/her."

Although your W's affair is somewhat work related. I think you said OM is no longer a client. Most big companies will only intervene if its a current client, it's asupervisor/employee issue or company funds a re being used inapropriately.

Keep posting here. It'll be your oasis in the desert.

cwmac

<small>[ June 30, 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>