Sorry about the double. Hands are a little shaky this morning.

Good morning Homer.

I think there's always hope especially if you can keep up the effort. Moving to the spare room is better than you moving out altogether. If the subject of time frame comes up again don't put time limits on your relationship. This may take 6 monts or more. Don't tell her that. That's info for you to know.

Y say this with all kindness. You need to stop confronting her as you did last night. IMHO it just pushes her away. Your "crazy" behavior is only justifying her attitude and now she's throwing your child's safety in your face. If the subject of child's safety comes up again. Calmly tell her that you would never physically hurt her or the child. Tell her calmly that her behavior (EA/PA whatever) has caused life changing effects on you. Tell her your intentions are good that you are just trying to fight for your marriage and your life. If you can't say these things calmly it might be better not to say them at all.

I actually think that the text messages are a move in the right direction. For whatever reason she's telling him that they need to cool it for awhile. Plan A so that she doesn't regret that decision. Maybe it is just a plan to give the appearance of trying to make it work but so what. Maybe she really does want to try and make it work. Even if it's just for your child's sake, it's a posative event. Don't focus on the rationale behind it.

Count your blessings and turn it into productive time with her.

If she is going to cool it with him, she'll be emotional and on edge. She may lash out at you just like she did alst night. Don't take the bait. You need to be smarter than her right now.

Did you ever but "Not Just Friends"? You need to ASAP. Read it. If she sees you reading it tell her that your trying to understand her side/situation.

I gotta go for a few hours back nooon PST.

'by Homer.

cwmac

PS

You may want to post over on General QuestionsII. Alot more activity over there. You'll get a greater range of support and feedback.

cwmac

Thanks, cw.

I can't move this thread over, can I?

I'm going to MC this afternoon. She is leaving for her mothers I think tomorrow for the weekend. God please let MC help me.

She's not going to be there. 100% certain of that.

This has been the single worst day of my life. Emotional rollercoaster. Anger, confusion, desperation, you name it. I need to get a handle on myself right now.

Can't move it but you can post at GQII and then put a link to your first page.

Good luck on the MC/IC. Post about it when finished.

So WW has taken daughter to mom's house for the weekend? Have you discussed A with mom yet? I know she's had a bazillion husbands but you may want to bring it up to get a read on how she feels. Be very careful that you don't get upset in front of any "witnesses." Your W may use it as proof that you are dangerous.

cwmac

W was not at MC on Friday. I expected that. MC was hard for me at first - I broke down several times, but then started to relax.

I think I understand why W and I are where we are right now. OM is not the problem, he's a symptom of a much larger problem. The last 5 years W and I have packed so much into our time. We've had 5 miscarriages. Our careers have developed rapidly. We bought a house, and almost completely remodeled it. We spend almost every weekend with some family member (we're never home with just each other). So much more.

Somewhere along the line we lost touch with each other. I don't know very much about her life, and she doesn't know very much about mine.

Saturday night I took her out to dinner to her favorite restaurant. We talked about my MC appt, and about us. We talked about everything I mentioned above. It helped. She agreed that this will take longer than the original 3 week window I suggested. I think she's willing to work on things. They seemed to be a little better. At least we didn't fight over the weekend. She even apologized for what happened with the OM. That's what I've been hoping for the whole time.

She didn't leave town. We spent the weekend together. Things were ok, but a little tense. I took some time for myself saturday afternoon to help a friend build a deck on his house. Good to work with the hands again - very therapeutic.

I'm going back to MC on Wed. I feel better knowing I am trying something to at least make myself whole again. I don't know if this is going to save my marriage or not, but at least if things fail, I know I tried.

The only thing that still nags at me is what will happen after the month goes by with the OM. Are they going to go back to their original position of flirting and discussing other things? I hope not. I hope W sees in me her future and realizes that she doesn't want to lose it.

MC also told me to "stay the hell away from her laptop". I agree. I get this anxiety every time I see it sitting on the coffee table. If things revert in a month, or two, or three, or whenever - I'll know it. I won't have to read about it.

Thanks for checking in. Its nice to know somebody's still with me.

Homer,
This is the first post I've read today and it sure made me happy for you!!

All I can say is you're doing something right.

I think sometimes women appreciate husband's going to counseling if even by themselves. They know it's tough for men to go there and speak about marriage issues and infidelity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I understand why W and I are where we are right now. OM is not the problem, he's a symptom of a much larger problem. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. So true. That's why Harley says to work on meeting the ENs of a WS or FWS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We've had 5 miscarriages. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is important. Women IMHO don't in most cases feel complete until they have children. My guess is that due to miscarriages wife had self-esteem issues. Didn't feel like a real woman. She probably didn't share this with you. OM's attention made up for these feelings of inadequacy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...we're never home with just each other... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley says a minimum of 15 hours per week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Saturday night I took her out to dinner to her favorite restaurant. We talked about my MC appt, and about us. We talked about everything I mentioned above. It helped. She agreed that this will take longer than the original 3 week window I suggested. I think she's willing to work on things. They seemed to be a little better. At least we didn't fight over the weekend. She even apologized for what happened with the OM. That's what I've been hoping for the whole time.

She didn't leave town. We spent the weekend together. Things were ok, but a little tense... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All posative news. Things will be tense for awhile. IMHO, you'll be on a kind of "double secret" probation.

I was with my W. She wanted to see if all of the change: the new communication, the new interest in her, the more tolerant, less aggressive Mac would be long term. So be as consistent as you can.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going back to MC on Wed. I feel better knowing I am trying something to at least make myself whole again. I don't know if this is going to save my marriage or not, but at least if things fail, I know I tried.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only thing that still nags at me is what will happen after the month goes by with the OM. Are they going to go back to their original position of flirting and discussing other things? I hope not. I hope W sees in me her future and realizes that she doesn't want to lose it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now is not quite the time to ask for NC. Although that is your goal. Obviously the sooner the better for you but you may want to get some more quality time with her "under your belt". Again she need sto feel that your improvements and new attention to her are not short lived.

Have you looked at the Emotional Needs questionaire up on the the main MB site? You may want to print it and see if she'll sit down with you so each of you can respond to it.

Most women have affection, communication and financial support as three of their top 5 needs. Since your wife has a good career going that's probably less important to her.

My W's OM started by supplying the communication. Then it moved to affection bc she became cold to me due to the "friendship" so I withdrew.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MC also told me to "stay the hell away from her laptop". I agree. I get this anxiety every time I see it sitting on the coffee table. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know how you feel except with my situation it was her cell phone. One day early in my suspicion stage when she had a cold, I saw a v-mail from 6:30am. I picked it up dialed the v-mail box. Guessed the password. My heart started pumping as I heard the suspected OM tell her that "the sun reminded him of her bright smile..." Other than that the v-mail was newsy but the tone told me that he loved her. Logical deduction told me the rest.

Anyway...Homer I'm glad for the improvement in your situation. Remember "baby steps." Don't expect to go from A to Z in 60 seconds.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for checking in. Its nice to know somebody's still with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I first came to MB bc of my suspicions over 2yrs ago this place saved my sanity. Well most of it. lol

Mac

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Funny story about this weekend.....

We're at dinner saturday night. My son had some separation issues when we left him, so we called periodically to check in with the babysitter. W called the first 2 times. She hands me her phone and asks me to call. I hit speed dial #1 (that's what I have programmed in for home on my phone) and up pops the OM cell phone. OOOOOOPs! I hang up I think before the call goes through. I told her what happened. She didn't know that he was her #1 speed dial. I said no big deal. Just kind of funny.

At this point I don't feel comfortable with the questionnaire. It may still be too early. I do have 2 copies printed out, though.

Conversations with her have been ok - friendly - but I can still sense some tension in her voice from time to time.

We emailed back and forth a couple of times this morning about a possible date night coming up. She had mentioned a concert she might be interested in going to, so I asked if she would be intrigued by the thought. She came back with another suggestion. Going to a "salsa" party with a couple of friends. I'm ok with that, so I let her know. She also brought up another upcoming concert in October. I told her that I'd love to go with her. (its someone she knows I really am not crazy about).

She responds by asking me why I'm being so easy. I tell her that I didn't mean to come across that way, and if it makes her uneasy, please let me know. She said she didn't mean it that way, and then I could tell she was tense on the phone. I dropped the issue.

This is my plan A. I'm going to give her what she tells me she wants. Nobody can argue with it then. I don't mean to sound cynical in this respect, but I am truly honest in my efforts. I'm keeping my eyes on the prize.

Yes, I am on double secret probation, maybe triple secret.

Homer,
Classic on the cell speed dial.

If it's too early for her to fill out the ENs questionaire, do what others do and take the survey to the best of your ability as if you were her.

You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is my plan A. I'm going to give her what she tells me she wants. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good but be aware that many times WSs never tell their BSs that they have a need that's either not being fullfilled or that is being fullfilled in a better way by the OP.

That's why I'd fill in the questionaire to the best of your ability to come up with her top 5. Also guess as to the needs that you think OM is filling. Unless it's been physiacal OM usually are only able to fill affection, communication, recreation. OM usually can't provide financial, domestic support or...Not sure if they can provide attractive spouse. I guess if they're attractive and the BS has "gone to seed."

My W being the good conflict avoider never once told me that I wasn't making the grade. Once OM stepped in it was a downward cycle. She withdrew a bit and I responded in kind. She withdrew a bit more and i responded as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She responds by asking me why I'm being so easy. I tell her that I didn't mean to come across that way, and if it makes her uneasy, please let me know. She said she didn't mean it that way, and then I could tell she was tense on the phone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually the better response might have been," I never knew I was so 'difficult' in the past." Well think it don't say it.

The analogy that I used w/ my W that worked related the old me to the new improved me as an "awakening." I told her that the old me never meant to treat her poorly but I got focused on career. I thought that's what women wanted was financial stability. I didn't realize that they had other needs. I thought she new that I loved her eventhough I didn't show it nearly eniough. (BTW I said it alot but my actions didn't follow up). The new me has awaken from a long sleep. I'm now informed and refocused. My eye is on the ball again.

IMHO, this really needs to be a true life changing event for both of you. Otherwise you'll slip back into the same old same old.

BTW, during my early discovery stage we went to a Laker game and a concert if not two. These activities are fun and good to do but don't use them a s a crutch bc along with the activities you need to be the new attentive husband.

Mac

Sorry for the absence. I have an update.

Yesterday was my second MC visit. I think they're helping. My biggest problem is changing my behavior right now. I can't let my emotions rule how I act.

Against my MC's advice, I have been checking her text messages on her cell phone, and last night I checked her email. I don't know why, but gut feelings 2, being wrong 0. Interesting. They text messaged each other about 8 times yesterday. It seems their routine is to text first thing in the morning, and then right after work. W wanted to know if he was getting her mail. He didn't get the first one. Reply emails referred to a dream she had 2 nights ago and how now he couldn't read about her dream. He suggested she cut & paste the original. "Can't...Deleted it" was her reply. He also mentioned that this violating their agreement. Tongue in cheek I'm sure. I stayed calm. Went back to bed with her and got a little sleep.

He called her cell at 4:30 yesterday and they spoke for 15 minutes.

Today and tomorrow she's at home working. I took my son to day care. She called while I was on my way to work. We talked for a few minutes and I mentioned that I was committed to working things out, but that would be hard to do while OM was still out there. Her response was to tell me that she hasn't spoken to him in 2 weeks, and their correspondence is only about his move, unpacking, etc. She says she can't go on dealing with my insecurity. She got very short. Can anyone imagine why I might be having a problem???? Apparently I "know" more than she thinks I do.

Everyone is right. Plan A is very, very difficult.

<small>[ July 15, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: homertyme1 ]</small>

Homer,
If I could go back in time, I would do this differently.

I would stop all spying for at least 30-60 days during a hard core Plan A. The reason I'd do this is for the reason your describing. You're Plan Aing and startying to feel good then you do sone spying which leeed sto feeling down and having a tough time contuinuing the Plan A.

try to give Plan A some good time. Try to stop the spying for as long as you can.

I know it's difficult. Maybe impossible if you're obsessing like I was.

It is the best way to go.

Mac

cw -

Nice to know you're still with me. I have been thinking the same thing. Easy to say, but harder to do.

I wonder if she leaves this stuff, knowing I'll find it. She might anticipate a major blowup, which would further her cause. Maybe she thinks she has me backed into a corner. I don't know.

I agree with your sentiments. I'm not going to spy for a while, hopefully never again. Time will tell. I'm still kicking myself for last night, but at least I know now that I can't believe everything she tells me.

Another funny story. I go to bed with her last night. Can't sleep. She's almost asleep. I decide to go downstairs and watch TV for a while (this is after I spied) and knew. I lean over and whisper to her "can't sleep, going to watch TV, sweet dreams." The last 2 words were from one of her text messages to him. I said them innocently to her. Its not 2 minutes before she's downstairs on the couch saying she can't sleep. Cruel? Maybe. I found it a little amusing. I have to keep some sense of humor in my life or I'll go insane.

Homer,
That obsessive feeling is tough to fight. I'd go for a walk if it was late at night.

I'm not saying don't ever do it again. I do believe in spying as a way to discover the affair and then to check on NC once a spouse commits to going into that mode.

I think after a long Plan A 30-90 days if your W decides to go NC with OM you should check just to make sure that she is in NC. Some WWs claim to be in NC and then break it.

Spying every day when you know she isn't in NC will just drive you up the wall.

Save you sanity and just assume she's in contact until you've Plan A'd awhile.

Mac

H-
After reading exchange with CW I feel the need to butt into your business once again.

I’m sorry to say but on the issue of spying (let’s call it what it is) my point of view have to differ from CW’s.

Yes it hurts to know that she’s lying to your face but having information is primary to you having a realistic knowledge of what’s really going on in the relationship. Without knowing the facts you run the risk of falling into a state of denial. You may even lose your ability to be objective and emotionally detaching; learning to be objective about this problem is where you need to be right now.

My point is that at times like this, times of crises, you simply must be in control of what you can control; yourself. Once you take away her ability to affect you emotionally, you can respond to the problem more effectively. For me, knowing everything was the most important element in overcoming my sitch.

And another thing. Have you found out who this guy is yet? If so have you contacted his W? Man, that’s really important!

One last thing. Nowhere in plan A does it instruct us to accept all the blame for anything. I’m sure that you (as could we all) need to improve on relationship abilities but don’t let you MC or anyone else make this problem just about you! Because you’re not the cheater here!

Also, understand, that at this time your problem is strategic. Changing your persona and how your W sees you is definitely an element but not the only one. She’s having things pretty much her own way right now…constantly threatening you and beating you up with your so called insecurities. Just realize that backing off to much and letting her get away with it will eventually build up in you until you explode and LB her back to square 1. That’s why you have to be objective and handle her BS as it comes. Not with confrontation or argument but with quiet certitude that makes her understand that you know the truth.

coach

Coach,
I wasn't advocating for Homer to stop spying and to go into denial. His last response did seem to indicate that's what he planned to do.

What I was trying to say is that it's difficult to Plan A when you are focused on each minute bit of data recovered from spying.

That's what would happen to me. I spied to know that she was lying to me about the "relationship." I confronted her and got more lies. I focused on each cell call, each telephone call, each voice mail & each bit from the recorder.

I personally think it was enough to know that she lied and that an affair was going on. I then needed to focus on Plan A to help end the affair. Because I was so focused on the minutia it was sometimes a challenging to continue with the Plan A. I believe that a BS needs to meet the needs of the WS for a minimum period of time before they'll even consider ending the affair. That's why I said the 30-60 period.

I do believe that spying is important as a reality check especially if WS has promised NC. As we both know there are lots of WS who promise NC and then either break it temporarily or never really enter it.

The other reason I advocated the "spot checking" style is that it is easier to break the spying habit later. Because I focused on the daily spying, once NC begun and had been in place for a year it was difficult for me to break the habit.

I have but it took awhile. I'd listen to every phone call for OM's voice 12 months after NC had started. I tried not to listen to conversations that didn't apply but it was a habit. I heard my daughters talking to friends. Wife talking to friends. Just didn't need to do it but the habit was in place.

That's why I gave the advice to Homer that I did. It is important to spy to discover the affair and to bring it into the open. It's also important to use it as a spot check monitor but IMHO that's it.

Mac

coach & cw

It's nice to hear two different perspectives. I'm going to lay off the spying for a while. Just touching the laptop or cell phone gives me a certain amount of anxiety. I can't afford that right now.

I am sure that NC is not established. Yesterday's conversation with her assured me of that. I'm also sure that she's still lying to me. That hurts. If she would just come clean with me we could deal with this together. Maybe she will in time. She doesn't understand that I can forgive her for what was going on before, but I have a real problem with them continuing their behavior after the fact. Does she think I'm that stupid??

No spying last night at all. I feel better this morning. She went to the airport to pick up her Grandma yesterday evening. I took the time to pray - alot - for strength, for her, for our son. She left her laptop on the coffee table, but logged out. She must have thought that I couldn't log in (I think I still know her password). No way - not going to bite on that one.

She gets home later and things were ok. She asks me why I'm so distant (I wasn't being distant). I say "can you tell me why or what I'm doing that makes me distant?"
"Don't talk to me like you're some f-ing therapist" she replies.
"I'm not - I just want to have your input" I say.
She drops it.

I feel like she's trying to push me over the edge, just so she can justify in her mind what's going on. I'm not going to give her that.

She thinks I'm some big ugly green monster. I hope some day she realizes I'm not. I hope its not too late.

Coach - I could probably locate the OM's wife, if he has one. I'm not even sure if he's married at this point. WW told me he was, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. You see, he (or they) just moved from IL to NC. They're not even completely unpacked yet. I do have his former secretary's phone number, and I think I have his old phone number and address. I'll keep that in my back pocket for a while. If things turn downhill, she's getting the call without a doubt.

What if he's not married? How would I expose? He obviously doesn't care.

The way I see it, WW has two choices to make:

1) Does she want to spend the rest of her life with me and be happy, and not teach our son this horrible lesson of just giving up?

2) She needs to end it with the OM.

Yes to 1 makes 2 a no brainer. She doesn't realize that now. NO to 1, and I'll get the option on 2.

I have hinted these choices to her in so many forms over the last two days, but not verbatim. I'm really trying not to pressure her right now. Given the continued contact, that might force her farther away. I think she knows they're out there, but won't acknowledge them right now. BUT - I don't think she knows about my option on no. 2.

Thoughts???

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: homertyme1 ]</small>

My detective work is done.

I know his wife's name. I also know his phone number, and the city he lives in. It really sucks for him that he has a unique first name.

But - I'm not going to call her - yet. I'm trying to let my WW come to terms with this thing herself.

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: homertyme1 ]</small>

H,
Just a word of encouragement. If your W came home and you were so laid back that she asked you what your problem is then you’re on the right path. And you can take that to the bank!

Taking it a step further, analyze this. How did she responded when you asked her to identify the reasons for her remarks? She went back on the offence! She came back with a snotty reply! And how typical is that!?

So here’s what you need to do. You need to understand the dynamics of what’s happening here! Your W is all fogged out. I mean like totally from another planet right now. So what you’re getting from her is emotional trash describing the person she’s decided that you are. More then that even...she’s decided that this is the person that you have to be! Because if you’re not this terrible person then she has to figure out why she’s acting the way she is and G-D knows, she ain’t about to do that! If she did she might have to accept responsibility for her actions and that ain’t about to happen at this stage. LOL

My point is simple. Keep detaching yourself from the problem. Keep yourself in a clinical mode and out of an emotional state. Kill her with kindness, with kind words, by doing nice things for her. And when she questions your motives, play dumb! Your answer to her WHY question should always be, “’cause I love you and this is the way I’ve always treated you haven’t I?” LOL

H, this is the kind of thing that keeps her off balance. It keeps her from acting out toward you. It makes her question herself and her actions. Further, it prevents you from wanting to respond to her crap with LBs. Man, don’t let her draw you into an argument...EVER! No hard words. She won’t listen anyway so just learn to walk away and say nothing! In fact, when in doubt, saying nothing is perfect. Saying nothing never got anyway into trouble ever! Besides with hard words, all you’ll end up doing is re-affirming her negative image of you. It’s a no win sitch.

But here’s the good news. If you can just keep it up, she will crack. That is if she has any vestiges of decency left in her at all; because if so, her guilt will just eventually crush her.

coach

Homer,
The goal of Plan A is to end the affair. You have a piece of information that could very quickly do just that: the OM's W's name.

You said you weren't going to call her. You sound like me early in the process a few yesrs ago. I rationalized that if I called Om's W she'd kick him out and W and he would end up together.

Couldn't have been further from the truth. I believe had I contacted her the affair would have been over immediately.

Keep in mind most married men have no intention of leaving their wives, kids & families. They have affairs as an addition or adjunct to the M. It feeds their teany tiny egos to have two women. Makes them feel superior to other men especially the H of the OW.

I eventually did tell Om'W but that was after DDay2 when I learned that the A had been a PA and not just EA.

I felt guilty for not telling her sooner. She deserved to know.

Again the whole object of Plan A is to end the relationship. If you tell and the wife throws cold water on him, it'll shrink fast.

Of course your W will be pissed. Need to politely tell her that your goal is not to hurt anyone it's to end the affair. You can also say it's the ethical thing to do.

You can just politely remind her that its their relationship that has crossed proper boundaries. It's her rel. w/OM that's wrong not exposing it to his wife.

BTW, most MM tell the OW that they have no intention of leaving their Ws. Married women don't accept it as truth. They think that the relat. will change their minds. Kinda like when they marry us and then think they can change us. lol

So dillusional...

Mac

cw -

I'm not calling her right now for 2 main reasons:

1) I am trying to give my WW the benefit of the doubt here. She tells me that they both are not "going down that road" anymore. Time will tell in this instance. I'm staying out of her stuff for the next 30-60 days. I'll revisit after that time. IF....they're back at it....I'm not going to blow my stack. I'll calmly call OM's W and explain to her what is going on from my perspective, without telling my WW. I can then calmly sit back and wait for it to really end.
They have next to zero chance of making this a PA at this point. He lives in NC, we live in KS. Their paths will not be crossing any time soon, I think. They do not have any business dealings with each other at all. He is no longer a client of hers. Right now they're limited to cell phone and email contact. I know that if she has any email to/from him that would be damaging, she gets rid of it immediately. After some time, she may not be doing that anymore. I am counting on that.

2) I think my MC is trying to help me in other ways. I think he's working with me to put me in a position to wait for her next move. When/if she does, I'll know it. The fact is....I can't control what she does at this point. Trying to keep constant tabs on her is racking my sanity. I'm the type of person that tries to reason everything out. I need all of the facts in front of me, and then I "chew" on them for a while.

Had a good weekend with her, however. Not too close, but no fights.