Understandably, don't know exactly where or how to start. "Bio" has personal info. Only addittion might be that WW and I have known each other for 38 years (childhood sweethearts). Yes, after all these years, she is an integral part of my life. Long ago there ceased to be a "me" in favor of an "us" - probably one of my "problems".

The reason for the "again" were Ea's associated with on-line chat. These lead me to MB over 5 years ago, but like the alcoholic who fails to "take the cure", I failed to adopt the whole program. Instead, only bits and pieces were adopted (by me, none by her). MC undertaken at that time, successful (?) until sessions (comments & questions by MC) became critical of WW at which sessions ended.

Being (I thought) well versed in the Love Bank, Love Busters, and Love Deposits we moved on with our lives. Fast forward to the present…I find that once again Internet EAs started and have lead to at least one PA - ongoing at present and only one I can deal with now.

WW is still in house, although actively looking for apartment and car and has indicated an un-waivering desire for divorce as I can no longer meet her "emotional needs" (yes we've done the questionaire - major LB's for her she claimed), nor does she believe I can ever meet her "needs" (so stated by her).

The ruse used to perpetuate her "meeting with friends" were purported to be "spiritual escapes" - WW has (and continues to) explore alternate spirituality and answers to life's questions since the passing of our son 8 years ago. As I do not share her interest in this "alternate" spirituality, but (mistakenly) bought into the idea that she needed her own space to discover her own identity, and own purpose in life, I allowed this process to go on unsupervised (and unscrutinized) until the personal distance between us increased to the point where even I pressed for serious discussioon re. what these meetings were doing to our relationship. Although it took several weeks for her to pen up re. "our problem" (as she calls it), WW finally admitted that the Thursday & Friday "journeys" were to meet with her married lover.

WW has NO desire to separate from this man (surprise) and claims they are planning a life together (marriage). Supposedly OM is pursuing divorce -although still live with his wife. I've been informed that Oms wife now knows about the A -somebody sent her a card with info. Re. her husband and my wife's activities on Thursdays & Fridays. BTW, my wife accused me of this disclosure (unfortunately, I didn't - not enough info) and in fact is carrying the card with her in her purse (probably to throw in my face this evening).

After an overnight away from the house and "all distracts" (actually she ran directly to him), I again expressed my desire to save our relationship and informed her that I, with or without her, was committed to following the MB program without deviation this time (I'm totally "taking the cure"!) She has informed her lover that I am once again in "denial" and I'm sure that they had a good discussion about "what to do about *** (me)" from her work today.

At this point, I feel used/dirty/cheap/crushed/confused/alone…name an emotion, I've got it. My compass is broken and I am TOTALLY without direction!

ron -

Losing a child puts your marriage up into the 90% for divorce. Sorry, but that is the way it is. The statistics are very grim. It is so sad to me.

I have a friend at work that lost his only child in a car accident. He and his wife have been married for 23 years. Well, you guessed it - they have divorced, and moved to different parts of the country. And all this happened in the last 3 months.

So my advice to you is to stay in Plan A, and get some counseling, because the odds are against your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> ron -

Losing a child puts your marriage up into the 90% for divorce. Sorry, but that is the way it is. The statistics are very grim. It is so sad to me.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Those are truly disheartening statistics. It was ONLY through the love for each other that we were able to survive that awful time.

Up until now, I thought I could experience no greater pain than that of the loss of our son. Unfortunately, I find the pain of this betrayal FAR more excruciating because of the personal nature of the rejection.

Although admittedly deep in an emotional pit, I can not imagine a crueler means of inflicting pain on someone (especially one who's experienced life with you for 32 years) than to flaunt your A and sexual exploits with OM the way I am having this shoved at me. There are simply no words to describe this pain...

ron53

Sorry to hear what you are going through. As bad as it may seem right now, it is not hopeless.

Dust of your copy of Surviving an Affair, or get a new one, and read it and understand it. It is a plan that works.

Start in Plan A, and do it with a vengence. Stall any divorce proceedings for as long as you can. Do not accept what you have "heard" regarding the OM's wife knowing about the affair. Gather what proof you have and let her know either in person or by phone. After reading about HOW to expose in SAA, think of doing it in concentric circles, involving first those who can help with ending the A. The OM's wife is first, then from there, employers?, mature children?, parents? and so on. Don't expose with a vengence, expose with love, and a desire to save your marriage.

Begin by doing everything you can to make LB$ deposits, and avoid confrontations. Stay away from Love Busters, including Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgements, and lastly do NOT denegrate the OM. This will force her to defend HIM, and away from YOU.

It's only been a few months since I had the same feelings that you are now going through, but you can do this. Remember, it will be your ACTIONS that make a difference, not your WORDS.

Best Wishes

SD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by shattered dreams:
<strong> ron53

Remember, it will be your ACTIONS that make a difference, not your WORDS.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is truly what one would think. Unfortunately, 32 years of love and affection, with 5 of concerted effort at avoiding LBs, making deposits to the "love bank", sharing recreation (always hers though, no reciprocation), open (and honest) displays of affection, (what I thought was) dedicated conversation...the items Dr. H points out in HNHN have all gone for naught.

I'm absolutely at a loss to understand how the phenomenon of "internet chat" has managed to wreak SO much havoc in my life. How words are able to have so much more power than the tangible "being" of actions.

I'd love for her to accompany me into Plan A and (effective) MC so that I understood what went wrong. OBVIOUSLY, something did, I just don't know what...

Ron

As a FWW who lost a child and launched into a year long A I have some understanding of the intense almost insane grief that both parents suffer. I wanted, needed someone to blame to point the finger at and say you caused all my pain. I choose my husband because he was away fighting a war.

I do not in any way defend this madness, for that was what it was, I wanted something or someone to fix everything. If my H had been here would I have acted differently? I don’t know. I hope I would have but I have no guarantee that I would have.
I can only say that it seems to take over your entire life, you exclude all others, even your other children who need you so much that you virtually live two lives. You live a fantasy.

I can remember wanting desperately to be able to start over, to change what happened, of course to no avail. I hated him then so much, another fantasy, for not being there.
Oh I knew he had no say in the matter, that he was sent to a horror I can barely imagine, but I didn’t care then. It was intensely, totally personal to me. You see I couldn’t or wouldn’t acknowledge his pain. Just as your WW is doing now.

In a twisted way I have been lucky. I got a shocking and painful wake up call when my H was sent back wounded & in pain, in mind & body. He found out so quickly what I was doing & it broke his heart. I came back to him immediately, totally and begged him to forgive me.
Maybe one day he will.
He healed in his body quickly and only a week ago went back to the war, somewhere. So I wait and I hope.
I hope he can find the strength like you seem to have to still care for someone like me who has failed him so terribly . I know the odds are against such a thing, but I will try to make it up to him for the rest of my days.
Your strength amazes me and gives me encouragement to keep fighting for my H no matter the odds .
That you still care amid all the pain being placed upon you is a true miracle.
I hope that it can work out for you and your WW, hopefully as unlikely as it seems now, as a couple in a M, and pray for her recovery from the ‘fog’ which is reinforced by her pain. Unfortunately you see, she just does not see yours.
Ron do not accept that the OM’s wife knows anything. Find out the address or his full name and trace it down and TELL her yourself. Advise her perhaps to come here to MB, maybe even work together if you can to destroy this A . You might think it strange for FWW to advise this but I know what pain and torment this does to people so the more you expose and have pressure placed on the A the less likely it will survive. Do whatever you can to prevent the A from being easy to run. If it gets to hard I suspect the OM will fade away, especially if both you and the OM’s wife are building up the LB. I really hope so anyway.
All the best

Thanks for the kind words CRAZEDLOVE.

After 8 years, I supposed that the lose of our son would diminish it's affect on our day-to-day lives. Although one is never over something as devastating as that, at least we had each other for support. Unfortunately, now (except for the "pity parties" my daughters feel are helpful) I'm forced to face this pain ALONE.

At times, I'm hopeful that the LBs I'm attempting to deposit are having an effect. But I'm afraid my efforts are in vain (they, WW & OM are quite scornful in their opinion & conversation re. this). It truly makes me wonder if the effort is really worth it. I realize that I pledged to adopt and adhere to the MB philosophy 100%, but the scorn & disdain for my feelings displayed by these two is unbelievable.

Fortunately (or unfortunately as the case might be), I do have HIS cell phone number (found partial # written on old "calling card" and simply called as many combinations as possible until I hit paydirt - he called her (WW) and she called me, presto!). On one hand, I'd love it all exposed to the glaring light of day; and on the other, I'd hate to inflict that/this pain on OMW. I could EASILY inflict some (LOTS ACTUALLY) pain on him, but she is probably just an innocent victim in this sick scenario.

For my part, I need to stop counting on little victories with my LB$ deposits only to discover the next day that…"gee *** you won't believe what *** did last night". I know that these "deposits", if nothing else, serve as a reminder to her of some "good" things. Unfortunately, after 32 years there are tons of "good things", and none of them seem to matter! My feeling this AM (feelings swing wildly right now), is that the "Bank" has a hole in it, or that the LB$ are actually having a negative effect. I promised to "hold the course", and I will, but it's only the thought that it's still early in this process and that sooner of later, one or the other of them will encounter a "bump" in this fairy tail they've created and then hopefully the reality of "real life" can sneak in, that keeps me going.

Purging myself here (as well as in the journal I've begun) helps bleed off the negative emotions. Unfortunately, If the truth be told, IF I CATCH THIS GUY I'M GONNA NEED A GOOD BAILBONDSMAN.

ron

crazedlove gave you some really good stuff there. Know that you are not alone in all of this. Read other posts, and see that others struggle with you. Many of the BS's here are pregnant. Others have lost parents or other loved ones, while their WS are, or have been, in the middle of an affair.

These matters have no boundries, or exclusions. Infidelity is a disease that can strike anyone, according to Dr. Harley, if all the necessary conditions are aligned.

There is no magic pill to make all this go away. It is your life, and you are in control of it, although you may not feel that way just now.

Regarding deposits in her LB$, yes, it is a difficult time. Relationship talks while she is this deep in the fog will accomplish very little, as she simply "can't" hear very well right now. But it all seems to add up somehow. Think of it as planting seeds, even though you are in a drought. All it takes is a brief shower to make those seeds sprout. I've seen posts from WW here that have returned to their marriages, who have stated that the deposits their spouses were making in their LB$ did make a difference, over time, and even my own FWW has acknowledged this.

Take care of yourself. Get with your Dr. and get on some anti-D's so you can face this with less emotion, and more thought. Continue to post here and you will get insight from people who just want to help. Not all the posts will be "right on", but you'll get enough to help you through this.

Best wishes

SD

ps: crazedlove was right on about exposure. This is one of the most powerful weapons to bring the affair to an end. The "OM's", other man's wife should be the first you tell. Never believe anything your WW or the OM tell you about what she might know. Not only will it help you, she deserves to know. Exposure should be done, not in a vindictive manner, but with love and concern for your marriage. I think you should contact the OM's wife with all the evidence you have, and bring her full into the loop. And the sooner, the better.

<small>[ July 04, 2004, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Thanks SD,

I know that what you and crazedlove advise re. OMW is correct approach. In point of fact, all resources (amazing what can be done/found when a couple "markers" are called in) are being marshaled to accomplish just that.

As an addendum to my "saga" re. the sympathy card supposedly send to OMW. I was disappointed that the address portion of the envelope was not present. I was also disappointed not to find **** stains where she might have shoved it into one of his bodily cavities! No blood either - DAMN!

I was intrigued though, by the incredulous look on my WW face when she picked the card up off her seat in the car as I was picking her up from work. At least, this pro-activity (hopefully) prevented her from throwing more crap in my face. The only words passed between them (WW & OM) were re. that were "*** found the card I had in my purse". I don't know how she manages to sneak in these chat responses! It's not like I can sleep any more .

What a tangled web we weave…when first we practice to deceive!

Ron -

These internet chat affairs are scarey! We have several folks here whose spouse is about to leave a long term marriage for someone they have only met once. Yikes!

I suggest you get some anti-D's to get you through the terrible first couple of months. And I can sympathize with the poor treatment you get from WW and OM.

I wouldn't treat my worst enemy the way my WH and OW have treated me. Unbelievable.

Hang in there, lots of us are going through the same thing. Better days are ahead.

Need some analysis here. Have a free day tomorrow so am trying to plan something for just the two of us (me & WW) to do that will

1. not lead to conflict
2. deposit LB$
3. be enjoyable for the both of us

As I don't believe the two of them (WW & OM) have much of a relationship other than conversation (#1 on WW EN list) and sex (#4 on WW EN list - and I can't make any deposits in that account " *** won't share"), I feel my best shot at real LB$ would be something he/they can't do.

WW's other ENs as listed were…#2 Affection, #3 Honesty & Openness, #5 Family Commitment. I just about ruled out #5 (any "family" type gathering) as the level of hostility from our two daughters would be quite counter-productive, #3 totally in the toilet since the A (she isn't - dah, and I'm scorned "Poor *** " if I try (plus the negative LB$ - I know part of Plan A but feels like beating a dead horse to continue to vent to her). That leaves Affection - been working on that "with a vengeance" since D-Day.

I used to so look forward to spending time with this woman. Now I dread the thought of being alone with her. I hate feeling this way. I love her so much, I just wish the "fog" would lift so that she could see how wrong this is and how badly she's hurting those (that used to be) nearest and dearest to her.

I have my medicine so I won't cry (promise), so any thoughts on "free day", just the two of us, early Plan A activity?.

Pray for heavy winds, gail force preferred…blow away this "fog"

Pray for heavy winds, gail force preferred…blow away this "fog"

Ron

My dad told me once "the steady wind bends the tree. In that I'm from Kansas, that has been self evident for all of my life. Most of the trees that grow in open areas definately have a "lean" to the north. Kansas, translated from the Indian word, kanza, means "people of the south wind".

Pray for the gail, but be prepared for you to provide the steady wind.

For tomorrow, my thoughts would be to keep things light, and draw from your combined experience and do things that you know she enjoys. Treat her like you did when you were courting her. Make her feel special. Avoid ALL lovebusters!

She may come looking to be contrary or combative, so you'll become angry or judgemental, which will achieve HER goal of justifying her Affair, because YOU are "such a horrible guy".

If she leads you into relationship talk, state simply that you love her, you want to make the marriage work, and that you are willing to change any behaviours you have had in the past that might have made the marriage weak and vulnerable to an affair. Apologize for those behaviours, earnestly. With that said, suggest that you and her just spend the day enjoying each other's company, and not let relationship talks be the issue.

I wish you well in your endeavors

SD

Thanks for the advice SD,

Had considered a day trip to Cassadaga (a "spiritual" village) as a means of distraction for the two of us. As previously mentioned, WW is "into" alternative spiritually so felt that this might appear non-threatening and perhaps even appealing.

The reason I used the past tense above, is because of the info provided this afternoon from some of those "markers" I'd called for assistance. While by no means complete, the picture being laid out for me is even bleaker than I could have possibly imagined! Coupled with an unexpected visit from my PC (personal counselor), I am truly in a depressed state. I'm not sure all of this "disclosure" is really doing me any good.

PC (admittedly not an MC, so view is not from that perspective) advises (adamantly) that I extract myself from this situation (and absolutely my wife) post-haste. While the arguments presented in defense of his position are VERY persuasive, my heart and soul still feels that all can be turned around. Realizing that I'm in denial re. the state of my marriage, the consensus of opinion is that this is more than what I can turn around and that only truly dedicated and professional help MIGHT save something. Without being graphic, I'll just say that the picture that's being presented is not a pretty one.

I'd love to simply wisk her away to this "spiritual" village and have her sit for a reading (I know she would -she's eager for acceptance for her behavior and has found none, not even from her closest confidant), and have this "spiritualist" tell her that what she's doing is disastrous, foolhardy, and now potentially life threatening.

I now know why Forest Gump did that cross country running thing…

It's often said that God gives us no burden that is too heavy, but in this case I believe he may have overestimated my strength.

<small>[ July 04, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Ron53 ]</small>

Ron -

The spiritual things sounds good. You know that you wife is interested in that. So that would be my choice. Also that should provide some interesting conversation. The spirutal realm is quite fascinating.

I would have no relationship talk, just enjoy the day. I know that is hard, but probably would be best.

Hi Believer,

Yes Cassadaga WOULD have been a good idea. Unfortunately, a turn of events (no, no intentional LB but perceived as one nonetheless) has definitely ruled this trip out.

The LB (if you want to call it that) was that WW is being stalked by a man. As is to be expected, she is adamant re. info on this individual, but when presented with the information and his VERY curious responses even admitted to it being "bizarre" (her term). Of course, she pressed immediately for how I had come by this information and was QUITE put off (to put it mildly) that there were people watching everything. Of course, that is not exactly the case, but I felt it better to not dispel that misconception hoping for some "pucker factor" from all concerned.

At this point, or at least as soon as WW can get next to a phone or computer, all concerned should have received a "heads up" re. the lifting of this veil of secrecy that they've tried to conceal this A in. It may not be exposure to the brilliant glare of sunlight, but at least some "shielding" has been ripped away.

At this point, I just wish it were all over! One way or another…just let it be over. I feel like I'm stuck in some sick Hichcock-like movie. Right now, I feel as though I'm beating a really sick (or dead) horse…

Saga continues…

Well today wasn't a total waste. Although the trip I had planned definitely went in the toilet, I may have managed to deposit a few LB$…you tell me.

One of WW three goals was acquisition of a car just for her (in her name only) - BTW, the other's are her own place (yes she's adamant about moving out), and finally a divorce (the big D).

Evidently, today was the day she put aside to do her "car shopping". IT WAS LIKE WATCHING YOUR PRIZE PUPIL FINALLY GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS. It was truly amazing (like watching myself in action). She did everything exactly the way I had been doing it for years. The LB$ come in when she asked if I'd go back with her and look over her selection and let her know what I thought (I had previously told her that I would do this). She had made a wise and informed decision, had done all her homework re. Blue Book Value, financing, even got up and walked away from the table twice during negotiation when she didn't hear what she wanted to hear. I had to walk out of the showroom twice (I kept my distance…this was her deal) to keep from having anyone watch the tears roll down my face.

If it's possible, my chest was swollen with pride for the way she conducted herself from start to finish, while my heart was breaking because I knew that I was watching the first of the steps she was taking on her way out of my life.

She did well and I told her so several times and in the end she thanked me (twice) for being there for her. Do I feel like the condemned man that's just put the bullets into the gun he's about to be shot with? YES! And when it's time to check apartments or condo's and I'm asked to express an opinion, will I feel like I'm helping aim the gun that's to be used to destroy my heart? YES! I don't even want to think about what feelings will be present while being handed my copy of the papers for the final dissolution of our marriage.

This LB$ stuff is tough, but I didn't hear her ask the OM for advise, didn't hear her ask him to look over her selection, didn't see him waiting in the showroom for her to finish pounding out her deal. Is this "doormat" stuff or am I really making deposits? You tell me…

These were deposits - just keep them up. When you feel like LBing, come here.

However, I would not help her move out. That would be too much.

But sounds like you are getting on the program, and the program here does work. Hang in there.

Hi Believer.

Question re. "I would not help her move out. That would be too much"

Please explain...too much for me to handle, too much assistance (as Plan A goes into toilet & Plan B commences), too much support (perceived by her as not enough resistance to her leaving) possible LBuster)...?

One bright note...because of the day's activities, he was hurt (poor [censored]) that she was not available to chat (nor did she call that I'm aware of). All was not exactly "rosey" in their little "loveland" last night/early this A.M. Perhaps their vulnerabilities are begining to show. Without letting the "cat out of the bag"...OM ain't seen nothin' yet!

<small>[ July 06, 2004, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Ron53 ]</small>

I think it would be too much assistance. If she decides to move, let her go. Tell her you don't want her to, but can't control her. But make her do it herself, or hire someone.

Thanks believer,

I'll follow your advice. Everything seems to be moving sooooo fast. Sure hope my copy of SAA shows up today (loaned the first one to a friend - how ironic).

Is it automatically time for for Plan B when she moves out, or do I stick with Plan A (kinda tough when WW's miles aways)? I realy need to catch my breathe here...everythings beginning to spin around again!