Hi -

I am a brand new member, this minute. Because...

This weekend my husband and I were at an annual, weekend-long party with friends and family. Late Saturday night I walked into my husband kissing another woman. I was pissed, but kept my cool. I am not even sure if the other woman knew that I caught them. She may have thought that her 'cover-up chatter' was a success. I left the room and my husband followed. I only asked a couple of questions that night and did not make a scene. When she left the next day, I was cool (i.e. no hugs goodbye), but didn't say anything nasty.

We drove home in virtual silence Sunday night. As soon as I got to work Monday, I found Marriage Builders and read through everything I could find. I printed up a couple of questionnaires and went home.

I asked him when it started. He told me this was the second time and that the first was a couple of years ago. He said they had only ever kissed. I said that I found that hard to believe because I know him so well. He said it was true. I reviewed his cell calls - nothing. No long distance calls on our phone bill either. I believe him (I think) that they have had no 'contact' outside the parties we attend. They have both been present at several parties since the first kiss and I don't know if nothing happened due to lack of opportunity or want/need.
She lives far away from us and he rarely travels without me (only when he is with his godson).

We meet together with these friends and family several times a year. So, I am having trouble deciding how far to take this. I feel that I need to un-invite her to my upcoming gathering.

Again, I read through the information online and it leaves me with some questions.
The advice I seek is relating to...

1. Do I view this as an 'affair' even though it was 'only a kiss'? I know I would have been devestated if they slept together, which he says never happened. I did have very bad feelings Sunday and cried off and on all Monday, but I am a 'solution-finder', so this is my way to resolve the situation, I think.

2. If this is an 'affair', will it be weeks before he is over it, even though it was so far-between? And should it take me weeks and months to feel loving again?

3. Do I call her and un-inivite her? (I'm not sure that after two kisses, my husband should write the recommended letter to her)

4. Do we never see our other friends and family ever again (at these get-togethers) because of this?

My husband said he is scared that I will not love him ever again and seems totally remorseful. I told him I should take part of the blame because I have not been meeting all of his needs and he thinks I am crazy - holds himself totally responsible and is so very sad. I plan to ask him to fill out the 'Emotional Needs' and 'Love Buster' questionnaires, as will I. I know that I have not been holding up my end of the marriage and I am trying to look at this as an opportunity.

Any feedback/advice would be appreciated.

s.a.h.

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: sad_and_hurt ]</small>

Hi, and welcome to marriagebuilders. I would definitely uninvite her. She is not a "friend". Also I would have my WH write the NC letter. Then you send it.

Sad&Hurt,
The bigger question is how do you feel about it?

How would you answer each of those questions that you posed?

You said it was late Saturday night. Where exactly were they?

On the previous occassion what was the setting? Is it possible that they could have been alone long enough to have sex?

Keep an eye on your H. My W's OM made most of his calls from his office. My W on the other hand made calls from her cell.

Mac

Mac-

Well, I think the answers are...


Q. You said it was late Saturday night. Where exactly were they?
A. They were in the livingroom - everyone else had gone to bed by then.


Q.On the previous occassion what was the setting?
A. It was the same location, though I did not get details about exactly where - whether they were in the house or outside, etc..

Q. Is it possible that they could have been alone long enough to have sex?
A. I suppose so, though I would say it would have been very risky, considering the number of people who were around. It was one of those rare occasions when I had too much to drink.. so I was asleep.

My Q1. Do I view this as an 'affair' even though it was 'only a kiss'?
A. I think I do. I still feel sad and am VERY suspicious now. I checked the caller ID calls that came in and used reverse lookup to see where the calls were from. I've not found anything so far.

My Q2. If this is an 'affair', will it be weeks before he is over it, even though it was so far-between? And should it take me weeks and months to feel loving again?
A. Well, my husband and I made love last night and it was good, but I thought about them during and after and about our marriage and it made me very sad. I cried afterward, so I think I might take a while. I don't know how emotionally involved he was - again, as far as I know (and he says), he has only seen her at these get-togethers.

My Q3. Do I call her and un-inivite her? (I'm not sure that after two kisses, my husband should write the recommended letter to her)
A. I am trying to work into the whole program with my husband. I know she needs to be un-invited because I am not sure that she knows that I know... it's just getting to the point where I ask him to write this letter.

My Q4. Do we never see our other friends and family ever again (at these get-togethers) because of this?
A. My husband said that, if that is what it takes, we will not go to these get-togethers anymore because he realizes what he has to lose. I am just really mad about how that disrupts our lives. Most of these people are really good friends. She happens to be outside the main circle and started as a friend of a friend. It's being mutual friends that screws it up. I can ask her not to come to my house, but have no control of whether she goes to the other parties. So do we only see our friends at our house? We certainly can't call her before each event and see if she's going. Maybe I should call her H and ask him to keep her home!

As far as my husband's access to calling her, I would say it's pretty unlikely. He does not work out of an office (he does manual labor and would not have the time to make calls or go places) and only recently got a cell phone (which I have checked thoroughly for suspect numbers). I don't think there was any additional contact.. but I could be wrong. He always works his 40+ hours and I see his paycheck with his hours each week.

Thanks for the reply...

S & H,

Now that you've answered the questions. I'll give you my 2 cents. I didn't answer firt bc I didn't want to influence the responses.

Let's assume that the only contact has truely just been these two occassions of kissing. Is "just kissing" an affair. Harley says that if it bothers a spouse it's an affair.

I believe that any relationship that includes any sort of sexual activity is a physical affair. Have you heard of the term emotional affair?

An Emotional Affair is IMHO best defined by Shirley Glass in her book, "Not Just Friends"

She defines it as any opposite sex relationship that includes three attributes:

Secrecy: I don't think your H and the OW announced to the party that they were snealing off to kiss. Wasn't that type of party. Right? lol

Sexual Chemistry: Most people who kiss (in the romantic sense vs peck on the cheek) have a sexual attraction to the OP. Sex. Chem. however can occur between two people who have started to regularly go to lunch together or who work together. Of course it can happen that one party feels it but the other doesn't. Even this can be dangerous if the party with the attraction communicates it to the party who hasn't sensed it. Once announced the feeling can grow in the OP. They start to think. "Things aren't going so well at home. This person is attractive and they are interested in me. Wow...."

Intimacy: Most people think of intimacy as the sexual kind but it really has a broader meaning. For example I go to lunch with you. I start to tell you my close held feelings, my hopes, my dreams, my wishes for the future etc. Especially dangerous if you're being more intimate with someone other than your spouse.

The worst thing we could do is get together to "help each other with our marriages" IMHO when that topic comes up between to people of the opposite sex it is in reality a ploy to discover if the OP feels the same way about their marriage. The ground ios being tested so to speak. Especially if men innitiate it. (Sorry I'm a man. Know how we think)

So your had at least two of the three. The only one that I'm unsure of is the intimacy. Maybe bc of the lack of oppurtunity it hadn't had the cahnce to occurr. But even at parties within earshot of other people this type of talk can occurr.

Does she live close enough that he could have gone to lunch with her? Hopefuly you caught it before either developed a strong emotional bond for each other.

BTW, remember that men usually need sex to feel love for a woman while women need to feel loved to have sex with a man.

If your H shows signs of w/drawal, it may indicate that it was either a much more in depth EA or it may have even been more physical.

Most married men have affairs that can be described as "additional" in nature. This means they never have any intention of leaving the W. They just do it in addition to their M. Feeds the ego in a major way. Married women"s As are more "instead of" in nature. They do whether consciously or subconsc. look for the H's replacement.

Is OW married? If so you should tell her H.

You should also have H write an NC letter that is approved and sent by you.

Gotta go. Questions?

Mac

Mac,

Thanks for your replies. I do appreciate that you took the time.

The OW is married. Her H came to only one party and then decided it was not his type of crowd... I'm not sure when that was in relation to when they (H and OW) first kissed. She does not live anywhere near close enough for them to sneak off to lunch. The intimate conversation, however, could have occured later in the evenings after everyone else has gone to bed. He has always been the last one standing...

H does not seem to be in withdrawl, however, and I really don't believe there was more contact outside the parties we attended. I think you are right about the 'in addition to' aspect. He would like 'it' every day if he could get it.... and I am not quite so ambitious...

Anyway, thanks...
Great to have a sounding board and an 'experienced opinion'.

S&H

I would uninvite her and tell her why "You are messing with MY husband and I WON'T have you there"

I would also contact her husband and tell him. He should know that his wife is smooching with someone when he doesn't go to an event WITH her!

S&H,
Sorry I just saw your 7/15 response. Glad my response helped a bit.

I firmly believe in the Harley concepts. I think your H needs to send the OW a NC letter. IMHO, in it he should say that bc yoiu were involved in the social group first she should bow out.

I also believe that her H needs to know. If the situation were reversed wouldn't you want to know? In a way this will also test your H to see if he is more concerned with OW's feelings over yours.

I'm glad your H isn't showing signs of withdrawal. That can be a good sign. Keep in mind that men are better at compartmentalizing their feelings about affairs and their APs.

As with all of us here at MB, this behavior on your H's part should be seen as a warning that certain aspects of your M need some work. Have you read about emaotional needs. Have you answered the questionaire?

Mac

Make sure her husband gets his own copy of the NC letter.

Dear Sad & Hurt. Definitely tell OW's husband - in a polite, "think you should know" way and refer him to MB. A NC letter from your husband, mailed by you is also important. The scenario of OW coming to the parties w/o her H is an affair waiting to happen.

I noticed these symptoms when our "friend" came to our Circle-of-friends gatherings while her H stayed at home. I saw it coming and discussed my concerns lovingly with my H several times - trying to keep it between the two of us. Right before my eyes, even knowing my pain and concern, WH ended up having an emotional affair (EA) with OW for nearly 3 yrs - denying it the whole time and accusing me of being innately suspicious and insecure. He fell in love with her, even though they only saw each other a few times a year at these gatherings (we live 200 miles apart.) They ended up kissing, then emailing and phoning each other. It has been one month since his "total" confession and our entry into recovery. She called it off prior to my discovery of journal notes and emails. He is still in withdrawel, and I feel like second best because he admittedly would have continued affair, rationalizing that it was good for our marriage. I deeply regret that I did not confront OW and inform her husband early on.

How's it going S&H?

It's really nice that all of you have taken the time to help me out. Things are going okay, but I haven't done all the things that are recommended yet. I did bring home a couple of the assessment forms, but we have not filled them out.

I have been working on the part where I try not to cause LoveBusters and try to fill up his bank... and he seems to be very amorous with me. I do still feel sad about the whole thing and it pops into my mind at various times.

I really need to un-invite her, get my husband to write the letter and tell her husband - honestly, I am concerned about what he will say when I make the suggestion to do these things. I don't think he will be upset because he can't live without her or something, but he will think its stupid and unnecessary or something.. Just speculation, knowing him as I do.

I think I will start with the assessments and see where they take us.

Any additional advice is always welcome -

And thank again... really