Hi, Everyone! After reading the posts on the topic: "Friendships with the opposite sex" I bought the Shirley Glass book "Not Just Friends" and M. Gary Neuman's book "Emotional Infidelity: How to Avoid It....." Neuman takes a much harsher stance on friendships than Glass, essentially saying that married people of the opposite sex should not have friendships under any circumstances, avoiding one-on-one contact at all costs. This seems so over-the top to me, kind of paranoid, I guess. I just don't think that every friendship with a coworker or neighbor could result in an affair, but I know I could be wrong, so I'd like to read what others post. I'd also like to tell women who's husbands are acting out in a mid-life crisis, to read the book," How to Survive Your Husband's Midlife Crisis", by Gary Courter and Pat Guadette. My sister and sister-in-law are both dealing with this (one husband's EA one husband's PA), and this book offers great advice and a website for support. I look forward to reading more posts, take care!

Kaylee,

You seem like a sweet person. The world and/or life at large aren't so sweet.

I'm a nice guy, trusting, dutiful, etc. I don’t think I ever did anything to deserve being mistreated. I didn’t act on my paranoia several times in my life and got screwed!

“If you love something set it free….” B*** S***!!!

I love my wife and won’t allow anyone outside our circle to ever get close to her again! I don’t mean I’ll smother her in a negative way. I mean I’ll give her so much of me, there won’t be room for anyone else ever again.

The last time she was unfaithful to me was after a bridal shower. I knew the girls she would be with were planning on going out drinking; I knew they would meet up with the bachelor partiers later. Just a bunch of friends from work, right!?! I would be a jerk not to let her go out with them, right?!? Untrusting and inconsiderate overbearing husband, right?!?

I wish I had forbid her from going out that night. I wish she had better things to do with me and our boys. I wish I hadn’t let her down that night, so she wouldn’t have let us down. OM was just a "friend" from work.

Over-the-top?.. Paranoid? Not from where I’m sitting!

<small>[ July 26, 2004, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: Painter ]</small>

I would agree. No friends of the opposite gender, period. As you point out, not all friendships will lead to an affair, but some will. One thing I have learned is that you will never be able to predict which ones either. The involved parties will lie, deny and decieve (they always do). You won't realize it until it is too late. I will never agree to this condition again.

Hi, Painter and EJS, thanks for your posts. Wow, Painter, I read your story, and you are an extraordinary man! I am praying for you and your difficult situation, and I know that God will give you strength. Any woman would be blessed to have a man like you; please don't lose sight of that. I read through the threads and I do believe things will work out just fine with your wife,so, hang in there. Anyway, it's interesting that after I posted last night, my sister called me. Her H has been having an EA with a coworker for the past 3 monthes and they've been separated and in counseling. Well, lo and behold, she just found out that it's escalated to a PA, and this is while he was supposed to be having n/c and working to reconciliation. I definitely agree with Painter and EJS that suspicion and paranoia is very necessary, because this EA/PA started as an innocent friendship at work. If she had put her foot down earlier, who knows? "Not Just Friends", right? I'd like to read what others think......

Painter,

I just read your story. I really admire you as a man. Your story is almost a CARBON COPY of mine...I felt like I was reading my personal journal...

...the only difference is that my wife abandoned the other man's child to the other man....that was seven years ago. We are even the same age.

Would love to learn more about how you're coping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

What is a good way for someone to ask thier spouse not to have friends of the opposite sex without it being a LB?

First I would point out that there is a difference between being friends and being friendly. The distinction between these two is what needs to be negotiated between spouses in my opinion. When my wife or I have had concerns (this has gone both ways for us) the conversation typically begins with "I would like to talk to you about your friendship with X. There are parts of this that make me uncomfortable..." and it goes from there. In general we discuss what are acceptable boundaries then trust the other to adhere to the agreement. I for one believe that blind trust is not good. For me, trust is achieved through accountability.

Painter, Kaylee & EJS, how do you get your spouse to agree to no opposite-sex friends (except mutual)? At work seminars where I cannot be 24/7, my H always gravitates towards the women who are there without their spouses or single, chats, exchange business cards, email, etc. Prior to this, he did it at strip clubs and bars, where he got drunk all the time. It fees like progress, but is it? If I can't trust him, what good is our marriage? We are going into MB therapy; maybe they can help us with this?

My situation is different than most here. But for us it was pretty straightforward. At the beginning of our marriage my wife insisted we be allowed friends of the opposite gender, she had always been friends with other men and it was never a problem (my wife is far more social than I am). Since I loved her, she loved me and we trusted each other, I agreed without reservation. Soon after our marriage began, I became friends with a woman in graduate school. We became very good friends: studied together, worked together and socialized together. Even now looking back I believe this friendship was completely platonic. My wife became quite jealous, but because of her prior insistance she said nothing. Instead she went out and found her own "special" friend. Unfortunately she fell in love with her friend. After the fact it was easy to see the pattern of how it happened. I didn't/don't blame anyone but it was clear to me that friends of the opposite gender had to be off limits if our marriage was to succeed. My wife is a very reasonable and understanding woman. She wants our marriage to work as much as I do. I became clear to her that her instance of opposite gender friends got us in trouble, and that in the end she was the one who couldn't deal with them. So she agreed that both of us should limit our contact with women/men. It was a solution that was obvious to both of us.

After discovering my wifes OM I asked her if she ever seen any other womans phone #s in my cell,,, She replied NO.
I told her that is because I have no female aquaintances. I asked her if she thought I deserved any less from her,,, she replied NO.
I told my wife it is something I needed from her. I did not want to leave nothing to chance.
Then I simply asked her not demanded, but asked her "can you accept this" she said she could accept it and also said that she would not want me having females in my cell that I claimed were just friends, co workers. So she fully understands that she cannot have a male aquaintance.
Do you ever wonder why it is usually the woman who has male friends I mean really friends. It is because of us MEN. men do not have girl friends,,,,and I mean true girl friends, like some girl you play ball with or go out with, some girl thats just one of the guys. We men only have girl friends that we are intimately involved with or plan to be intimately involved with.
Ladies,,,,, I know you may take offense but let me be honest. Woman have the tendency to have a few guy friends because the woman do tend to be more committed than men to solomacy......Or do they? Statistics show men and woman have almost leveled off in todays society. I will say this to the woman who have male aquantainces. Your male friend has thought of being with you sexually, the thing is there is usually no PA before an EA with a woman. A married woman does not just go out and bounce her body. Her emotions have to be stroked and keep being stroked until eventually the woman considers this man a FRIEND. A NICE GUY. HE JUST MAKES ME LAUGH. HE IS SO HONEST. It is no secret we men tend to be physical and woman tends to be emotional. That is how a man doops a wife. he knows you have to be friends first. He will find what makes you tick, what you enjoy. Give him any sign that he is progressing and he will eventually step up the process. Ask you out for a harmless,,,whatever. The woman says what the heck he is just a friend,, I havent done anything wrong with him,, and he has not tried anything with me HE IS A FRIEND. Yea hes a friend,,,a friend who wishes to lure you into the fog,, he knows it will take all of his charm, humor, sincerity, politeness to persuade you to betray your husband.
Just by talking about things you 2 have in common can let him know you are vulnerable. And some men can wait a really long time for a woman to come around.
There are cases where a man made himself vulnerable,, believe me I know,,,, but the truth is you will never find a truly devoted husband has female aquaintances. We men do not require the effort a woman does. If you ask a honest devoted husband how he remained faithful to his wife, I bet he will tell you HE NEVER PUT HIMSELF IN A POSITION TO BETRAY HER. When a spouse has an aquaintance of the opposite sex they have put themselves in the position weather they know it or not. So you ask how do you avoid affairs????
To me the answer is you never place yourself in a situation for an affair to take place. Such as me and Painter's wives did, they went to clubs without thier husbands, we let them go, we trusted them. It so true what Dr. Harley says "Given the right(SITUATION) we as humans are all capable of infidelity. A friend of the opposite sex is in fact one of those situations.
JMHO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: eric. n ]</small>

Eric, WOW! What insight you've provided to married women who have (or are considering having) friendships with men. Honestly, I think you've provided a public service here. Anyway, are you saying that most men who befriend a married women have ulterior motives and are willing to bide their time until an EA and ultimately, PA begins? It's just so scary to think that way, and I find myself looking at my own friendships at work with my male peers very carefully, now. I've just returned to work and I haven't worked with men in 15 years, so maybe I need a couple of "clues" in that regard. If I'm to understand what you're saying, a happily married man does not need to get emotional nurturing or intimacy for any woman other than his wife. If a man is having that type of relationship with another woman, he's hoping the emotional will lead to the physical, right? Eric, you've freaked me out, because I've said just the kind of things in your post like "He's such a nice (or considerate, or funny) guy" about my coworkers, and we have shared personal discussions about our families and our lives. All that has stopped since I've read "Not Just Friends", by the way. Eric, thank you so much for your posts, I wish you the best of luck!

Wow I was feeling hostile when I wrote the reply above….

Jannie, ladyinlove,

In my situation, WW (robel in other posts) was caught before in an EA. Since then, she hasn’t had guy friends until this summer, and she hid him well. At this point I don’t have to say anything to her re: guy friends. I also lead by example….. I don’t have “gal friends”. I try to avoid the very appearance…. I don’t know what to say about your H. I have met guys that just like to conquer, collect, dominate? Communication seems to be the problem or the answer. He needs to know from you how these contacts make you feel. Then he has a choice to make. (I’ve said that to my wife more than once)

Kaylee,

Sorry if I came on a little strong back there. Naivety just kinda bugs me lately. I have this need to slap people into reality. There is a force out there trying to break up every family it can. It uses simple tricks and lies repeated until they are acceptable by the masses. These lies need exposed, and the TRUTH needs to be shouted from rooftops! It may not be PC, but its real.

Oh and extraordinary? I’m just some schlep trying to survive this human condition called life. Not much more IMHO. I do have some help and a mom who prays guardian angels down on me a lot.

Eric,

(my little brother’s name is Eric)

You nailed several things! THANX! Most men are basically pigs. OM’s faux friendship, patience and a little alcohol was all that was needed to bring me to this place of pain in life again. Y’know what kills me? Why did OM put all that effort into duping a housewife-mother-of-four (don’t get me wrong, I love her and still find her attractive) instead of all those dingy blond hardbodies out there?

Dazed@Confused,

I may start another thread to rant and let you know how I’m doing.

kay,,,

Anyway, are you saying that most men who befriend a married women have ulterior motives and are willing to bide their time until an EA and ultimately, PA begins?
No not necessarily,,,, I would say for the sexual predator this is allways the case, but not for say another married man.
Let me ask you this, what is the true reason for sex? It feels good, yea, but the ultimate reason we all have sex is to ensure the survival of the species. If sex felt bad what would the human population be like?
We have all been given the physical aspects by nature, our weakness is natural.
Wyhat I am trying to say is that even if a happily married man befriends a female with no intentions of betraying his wife he is still naturally weak and capable of letting the friendship go to far. The Man may even realize it and try to end the friendship. You have to realize we are all Capable. As from a mans point of view affairs tend to be more physical.
It may be just the way a woman presents herself to a man that attracts him, say a first impression.
Even when me and my wife had a faithful marriage I can recall being PHYSICALY attracted to say, I woman I just saw out and about, maybe at the store or any public place. Even a faithful husband or wife for that matter has had these feelings. Say, a friend asks me to go to some club with him after work for a couple of beers. The first thing that I should consider is am I strong enough to be in that sort of atmosphere, not to mention alchohol involved and make good judgements,,, NO WAY! Instead I tell myself it is best to avoid that situation all together, so I cannot be weak and make a bad decision.
Can anyone truly say they will never betray thier spouse?? My wife said it to me all through out our marriage. She believed it that is how she got confidence to go to a club and not think of making a bad decision. She felt strong, when in fact we are born into this world WEAK! My wife is even truly shocked at her affair, she wonders how she could have been so weak? Something I definately needed to understand is SHE WAS BORN WEAK! Without coming to terms with that there could have been no forgiveness for her actions.
She made a Male friend at the bar, not for sexual pleasure but because he danced with her, he made her laugh, he told her about his sad life stories. They met as friends on a regular basis,,,every WED night. Well after creating this bond between them he knows its time to take the next step, to fog her. Start wooing her away from the man she loves. Saying things like "I cannot believe your husband is not out here with you" You are so fun to be around,, why is he not with you?" The Friend soon to be OM said all of this to my wife, he told her she deserved a husband who would take her dancing, he did anything to deminish her perspective of me,, a couple of days later he has her in his vehicle and reaping the benefits of his hard work. The affair changes now.
It is PA time! My wife confessed that after the first night she had sex with him, every other time they saw each other they had sex. Because The OM had physical needs not emotional. There was no more just having fun as a friend. When wife tried to tell OM she felt bad for what she was doing, he just dished out more fog,,, Saying,, " I feel bad as well I do not want to destroy your marriage, but I cannot help these feelings I have, nobody has ever made me feel this way" and then here comes the ultimate OM LIE! "I NEVER MEANT FOR IT TO GO THIS FAR" He is putting himself on the same plane as the wife to regain her confidence in the affair.

Why am I rambling about this? so all potential WS can get that flag (WARNING YOU ARE BEING FOGGED OUT BY YOUR MALE FRIEND)

Affairs are a step by step process. The last step in the process is physical involvement. The majority of the time (especially for a married woman) there can be no physical acts until the OM is considered a FRIEND!

It has taken alot of reading for me to realize these facts, and it was hard to accept that it pretains to my wife but it is the COLD HARD TRUTH.

Hi,again, Eric! Great explanation. We are all vunerable, and have to be vigiliant to keep our behavior and motives in check, because things can easily spin out of control. I've certainly learned alot from your posts. I wish you the best of luck in repairing your marriage. You seem to have a great deal of understanding about how these affairs can occur, and I would imagine that can go a long way toward forgiveness. Good luck and May God Bless!

Y’know what kills me? Why did OM put all that effort into duping a housewife-mother-of-four (don’t get me wrong, I love her and still find her attractive) instead of all those dingy blond hardbodies out there?

Painter,,,

My best guess is he had allready established an EA with your wife,, yes she thought of him as a friend but she felt the most comfortable with him, and he with her.
He more than likely had not established a bond with the other females.
Or,, another possibility I have read about is the SEXUAL PREDATOR, I really could not believe it but there are men in this world who thrive to seduce a married woman for ego gains,, yes ego gains. For these men hearing a woman say she is married is like ringing the dinner bell. To this type of predator he consideres it a challenge to seduce the wife. It gives him a means of self confidence to know he is so good that he can make a wife (who never dreamed of being with another man) betray the one she loves. He thrives on it. I also read this type of man will often reveal the affair to the husband himself. He somehow wants the husband to know he is every womans fantacy, and has now left his mark on your wife.
It also states this type of man is reluctant to comply with safe sex,,,yuck.
Is your wife's OM one of these predators?? Possibly. Did your wife reject advanves from him in the past and he still persued her? If so that is a very good sign he is a predator.
I believe that your wife was allready on a certain level with OM for PA to occur, it only took the alchohol and the partying to act on it.
He fogged your wife into thinking that all he wanted was a friend, someone to talk to. He deminished her thoughts of you. I bet your wife cannot even believe how it happened,,, thats why BS's allways get that initial response(IT JUST HAPPENED) ofcorse we know that affairs do not just happen they are a step by step process.
Painter,,I feel both of our wives were seduced the same way. We both let our wives go to the clup, and partying but we both did so under a false since of trust,,, Harley says a spouse should never be trusted in the first place.
I am on the same page you are. We trusted, we did not want to be the controlling husband. We now know different, our wives now know we are different, they know they are different.
WE LIVE AND WE LEARN BROTHER.
best hopes.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: eric. n ]</small>

Eric & Painter - WOW you guys sure gave some powerful insight.

First let me say that I do not believe that men & women cannot be true lifelong friends without it becoming overly E or P. I have male friends from my prior job that I love and trust deeply. In my younger days - yes, they did "hit" on me - but whether I was single or married - I always had the belief that a MM was off limits. I also believed that if I ever had a sexual relationship with them - our friendship would be over and just knowing that I could lose them as friends was enough for me to keep them at a safe distance. Sexual relationships for women are easy to find - true male friends are harder to find and keep. Right now, I'm very vunerable - I am careful of having any "new" male friends - I realize that with the state of my M I could fall into a PA. I do not want to be weak like my WH.

Eric you must know my WH...I truly feel he is a Predator. What you posted is exactly how it started between myself and my WH. I was married -I was going to a local bar after work with longtime male friends - he was an outsider who worked his way into our circle - we started with him calling me at work to just chat- everytime I was at the local bar - he showed up. One of the first things he told me about himself is what a NICE GUY he was...Duh - somewhere I should have realized that NICE GUYS don't "date" MW. Maybe I was naive since I did have other true M male friends. I fell for him - all the things you said "they" say are TRUE...The Predator gives alot of time and nuturing to the EA then WAM - it becomes a PA and you don't have a clue how that happened. He knew I was not getting attention from my BS that worked 12 hrs a day - so he called me alot, complimented me, etc.

You are sooo right - the the predator seeks out MW. The 4 women that I "know" my WH has been involved with are all married. It's the chase,and I truly believe the power of getting over on both the women and the men. Naturally, my WH would NEVER admit this - but, I believe it is true. Hell - it was sure true in my case. I don't think they dislike other men - I think it's a power/ego thing and they can't stop - each conquest fulfills them - I beleive these men are basically very insecure - deep down they have to have someone waiting in the wings for them. No amount of true love from their BS is enough.

Eric - was there a book you read? I'd be interested in reading it - it would be my WH autobiography... I guess I'd be chapter in there too.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I H,,

Yea I would have to agree your OM was a predator,, 4 married women is a dead give away.

I read an article titled NOT MARRIED NOT MY TYPE I do not recall the author. I found it under a search on the net.
Yes these guys are so smooth and persistant. They hang out in the clubs, gyms, and yes the work place. Are they insecure? definately!
What sicks me out is that one guy mentioned kept a log of dates and married women he had slept with. He claimed that once he had sex with the WW he felt of her as a trophy for all of his hard work.
Some of these types of people have had terrible past relationships or in fact been betrayed themselves. For most though it is the addiction of doing something wrong,,, the danger so to speak the fear of being caught. The excitement itself is the motive.. some even request to have sex in the married womans bed where they sleep with thier husbands. Man its sick.
Yes it disturbs me to know there are people who prey on married women.

You think it makes you sick - try being M to someone with such low self esteem - that they have to use others to make themselves feel better.

I believe I was the trophy wife to my WH for years - I went on the vacations, nice clothes, parties, etc. Now that I have found out and confronted my WH - I am a F@@@@@ B@@@@...Go figure. These Predators hate the truth - since they don't want to be "found out"..They put on a good front with family and friends - their true friends don't have any idea about thier "dark side". They get a high from their conquests - they love new relationships that's why one women is never enough.

Why am I working so hard to keep my M together - when I finally thru this BB am finding out what I have been married too...I still love my WH- I want him to change - but I don't believe he can - I think it's his way of life - it's who he is..I will Plan A till Jan. 1, 2005 - that's it..Then I have to look in the mirror and know that I gave my all and be at peace with my decision to move on without him. 12 years down the toilet..and I never saw it coming...

I would be interested to know how the Predator actually Ends his affairs? I know some of my WH A have ended - but, how do they do it??? What excuse do they use?
I wish I had more proof that he was seeing more than one women - i'd be sure to mail each of them some info and they could see they are all being used and they are not competing with me the wife - they are competing with each other...

I H,,
I really cannot relate as to how your hubby feels I am merely repeating material I have read.
One thing is noted about hese type of predators is usually the affair ends when the WW wants to take the affair to the next level,, say a steady faithful relationship, move in with each other, leave thier husbands.
Which is what has me baffled about your hubby. Marriage is like a poison to a true predator, however your hubby married you hmmmmm,,,, I am at a loss on that one. Maybe he enjoys both, being married and being with married women.
I think you have an excellent plan a set up. Stick to it.
As far as your husband being involved in 4 other married womens life,, I dont think they are coincidence. He definately has some serious issues to come to terms with. I hope for your sake that it is some sort of phase,,,, I dont know. I do think the only way you will get that answer is to stick with plan A. Give it time like you said.

<strong>Do you ever wonder why it is usually the woman who has male friends I mean really friends. It is because of us MEN. men do not have girl friends,,,,and I mean true girl friends, like some girl you play ball with or go out with, some girl thats just one of the guys. We men only have girl friends that we are intimately involved with or plan to be intimately involved with.
Ladies,,,,, I know you may take offense but let me be honest. Woman have the tendency to have a few guy friends because the woman do tend to be more committed than men to solomacy......Or do they? Statistics show men and woman have almost leveled off in todays society. I will say this to the woman who have male aquantainces. Your male friend has thought of being with you sexually, the thing is there is usually no PA before an EA with a woman.</strong>

I take issue with this. I have a female friend that is part of a loose group of folks that I socialize with. We do things together: generally with other people, but sometimes alone. She, two other friends and I even went to Canada fishing last year. We went for a week, we all slept in the same cabin. Somehow, we were able to contain ourselves and not have a week-long orgy. Geez.

I have never, and wouldn’t consider her as a sexual partner. She is a friend and that is all. Believe it or not, some dudes can keep it in their pants even when they are alone with a woman. Sometimes some dudes can even enjoy shooting the sh#t in the company of a woman without wanting to bed her. Believe it or not. Really.


Just my experience.

Edit:

My wife knows the woman and she is fine with my friendship. To be honest, I have to say, that I've never seen her in anything but a flannel shirt and she isn't the least bit attractive (she may even be a lesbian for all I know . . . we don't discuss those things). She is just a sweet person who can catch the hell out of the walleye.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>