Ok its 1 week since my W admited at least a EA but not a PA, not that I really am sure.

Which leads me to the current situation. I feel like a freak. I can't trust her, especially since she still works very closely with the guy. Today I drove past her work twice, to see if he had come in on his day off, he did. Then I sat out in the trees watching to see if they would leave together, they didn't (he left she still isn't home). But I feel incredibly insecure, and break into tears every time she leaves for work. I fear I am driving her away.

This Plan A feels like *&%$! How can these people stand it for SIX MONTHS. I can't sleep and every time she goes to work I think my heart is going to burst.

But I still love her. I have negociated a raise, from my job as of today and I think I can offer her a chance to quit without committing financial suicide. But how do you make the person quit, do they have to get out of their Affair La La Land.

I'm not very good at patient, I can't stop my mind from trying to come up with a solution.

Any help is deeply appreciated.

Sad

hang in there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Have you read Surving an Affair ; if not I highly recommmend it. Also look into counsuling for yourself and your marriage. And Most importantly PRAY!

ReallySad - Welcome to marriagebuilders. Try posting on the general questions forum. There is more traffic there. Also right now there are a lot of men going through the same thing.

I'm struggling along in a similar situation with my wife too, so you arent a freak, cause that would make me one too. Hang tough, I think we can beat and make it through these A s

Really Sad,
You've come to the right place. MB is a community that offers support to BSs and FWSs.

No your not a freak.

I understand exactly how you feel:

You're anxious
You're obsessive
You feel lonely
You're depressed
Can't eat or sleep very well
Your mind is in turmoil
You see images
Your self-esteem is at an all time low.

Does that sum it up?

I was in your shoes beginning in Winter '02.

I have one piece of advice I give all new BSs. Go to a doctor immediately and discuss getting on an anti-depressant. I give this advice bc of all the great advice that I had received from the old timers, this is the one that I IGNORED. Really regret my stupidity.

I've always been anti-drug so I thought I could do it by myself. WRONG!!!!

Once I got on ADs and stayed on for awhile, I started feeling better. I was able to deal with the affair and marriage issues. If your doctor puts you on meds for 60 days and then takes you off go see another doctor. Depression is progressive. Meaning the longer it goes untreated the more difficult it is to treat. If you've been depressed in the past over a job loss or a death in the family then you've already had an episode. Subsequent episodes are tougher to treat if the first episode went untreated.

If your a drinker even a social drinker I would severely curtail if not quit for awhile. Alcohol is the liquid that allows you to feel it's OK to call the W names. It tends to escalate the negative feelings. It also counter acts the posative effects of the ADs. Of course, it's a depressant.

If you take the above advice you'll be less likely to push her away with your obsessive, depressed behavior.

So take my advice on the ADs, or your promising yourself a longer road to recovery.

Now, you said W admitted a EA. What did she say about it? What has she admitted to? What evidence do you have? Most importantly how long has it been going on? Has she ended it?

If so, she needs to be in no contact (NC) with OM. What is their relationship at work? If he's in a superior position you should go to his superiors and tell them what has happened and use the "sexual harrassment" card.

She may go through withdrawal. Withdrawal doesn't start until NC is in place.

For EA's there are some great books. Besides Surviving an Affair, go buy "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass.

Mac

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Really Sad,
After making my last post i went and read some of your original posts.

It would still help if you clarified but here is what I've gathered.

Although she's admitted to the EA it hasn't ended. You said she still speaks with him on the cell daily.

You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When we discuss the M she always defends herself and the Other realtionship because it isn't physical and they've done nothing wrong.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife went through the same denial. It was only a special friendship. They can relate so well. etc She fianally realized that all of the time given to him was taking away from time that could be spent with me working on improving the M.

Since I was in the same boat and she was denying that it was an affair, i bought "Not Just Friends" IMHO it gave the best definition of what constitiutes an EA.

They have three characteristics: secrecy, intimacy & sexual chemistry.

Secrecy is obvious. Your W obviously has withheld from you her feelings for OM and info as to the timw they've spent together.

Intimacy is in the gerneral sense. Affair partners (AP) share their inner feelings with the OP in ways that they haven't shared with their Ss in years. Their hopes, wishes, likes, dislikes.

If they've shared the marriage trouble issues, that's a definite sign. They got to the point where they felt comfortable exploring a very private matter: the state of their marriages.

Sexual Chemistry. We've all experienced this when first dating. Your brain makes a cocktail of "omenes" that gives that special "in love" feeling. You find yourself day dreaming about the OP.

Most times we keep these thoughts to ourselves. Some times it is unrequited. The danger comes when we share with our "friend" our feelings. This info can even create the same feeling in the OP where it hadn't previously existed. When the feelings are mutual it's dangerous.

What details do you have regarding the time that they spent together. Was it just flirting around the doctor's office? Did they go to lunch together on a regular basis? Did they have any other unsupervised time together?

I'm going to say something now that may be totally off base but here goes anyway. Based upon the time frame that your W has been involved in the EA, a year or more, the infidelty odds say that it more than likel;y has turned physical in some fashion on at least one occassion.

That's not to say it was sex. It may have been kissing in a car after lunch. It may have been holding hands as they drove somewhere together. If sex was involved it may have only been a one time occurrance that never repeated due to the guilt that one or both of the parties had.

Over the past year what has your sex life bben like? Do you live in a small town or a city? (IOW how easy would it be for them to go off somewhere on a lunch break)

I hope I'm wrong but from all of the sources I've read the following is the "typical" scenario for married women:

The relationship truely starts as an innocent friendship. Someone to talk to at work.

The friendship developes into an EA usually within 2-4 months.

If it is going to turn into a sexual relationship it usually does within 6 to 9 months.

Again there are such things as "don't touch" affairs but, they are typically only 10-20% of most affairs.

It could have escalated to kissing and then stopped bc of the guilt.

My W's timeframe went something like this:

1-3 months, just friends going to lunches
4-6 months, emotional affair began
7th month, one time sexual
8-13 month, despite guilt of sex the EA continued unchecked and even got stronger.

My W didn't work with her OM, so physical contact was limited. They communicated thru cell phones and the occassional lunch and dinner. He lived in LA she in OC. If the proximity had been closer as in working together who knows.

Is OM married? If so you should tell his wife. That is a sure fire way to end the affair.

Most married men having affairs have no intention of divorcing their wives. The affair is an "addition" to their marriage. It feeds their egos. You said this guy is Mr Ego. That's usually bc he has self-esteem issues. Think of the financial damage an divorce would create for this guy. What egomaniac is going to give up his financial strenth for another woman?

Respond to some of my questions so I can give more imput.

Mac

Hey Mac,

Thank you, its funny how just someone somewhere can help, I guess its always humbling to me how good the world is.

Any as for your questions,

They work in a very high paced intense environment, so they are close to each other however, they are very busy, its a Animal Hospital. I have a friend who has known both my wife and I since High School has not seen anything inappropriate. (Wife and I started dating in 9th Grade).

I have seen them at dinner together once. Almost a year ago exactly. Looking back it was really strange. On the way back from football practice we stopped to get a bite to eat at Subway. WW and OG were there and it was funny because my wife did not come sit next to me and the other guy just stayed there.

Two other times I caught them in the parking lot together. Once our kids were gone and I thought I could meet my wife after work for dinner. I called her at 8 an hour after close, and she said she still had some things to wrap up.

So I went in my car and parked across the street in Home Depots parking lot. I watched my wifes car for 45 minutes, her lights were on. Then she left but turned the wrong way for home. I called on her cell and she said some machine had screwed up but it was just about done.

I waited until she got home, confronted her and she said it was an awful day and OG had really torn into her at work and he had just been trying to apologize, thats why she was in the parking lot. Then she needed to calm down before facing me. So she went for a drive. I still believe her, isn't that scary even after uncovering all this stuff I still can believe her.

The last time is similar however they didn't stay in the parking lot, the went across the street. I drove by to check on WW (I think subconsciously I knew) but her car was not there so I turned around and nearly ran into their parking place. She was in his truck. She had a work excuse again but as before I just don't have the strength to disbelieve it.

As for sex life up until about Jan. I think it has been above average, however since Jan it has crumbled to the point just before D-day she could not even look at me during sex.

I live in a city so it would be very easy to have lunch together.

Unfortuantely this guy is not married.

Thanks for your time

Sad

RS,
You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I called on her cell and she said some machine had screwed up but it was just about done.

I waited until she got home, confronted her and she said it was an awful day and OG had really torn into her at work and he had just been trying to apologize, thats why she was in the parking lot. Then she needed to calm down before facing me. So she went for a drive </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These two stories don't jive. She originally tells you she'll be late bc of the machinery then when you confront her she heads off in a different direction.

Is the add on to the story plausible? Yeah, but based upon the other things you know it is highly unlikely.

Since you said you had a friend who also worked there WW & OM probably act normal during the day. It's that time after work. Think back over the last year. How many times did wife come home late? How may occassions that she was at least an hour to two late?

Also...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still believe her, isn't that scary even after uncovering all this stuff I still can believe her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're a trusting person. It's also part of the infidelity statistics that BH's are usually more shocked than are BW's. Our society still teached people whether directly or indirectly that a married man is very likel to stray. It also teaches us that wives rarely stray and if they do it's bc of extreme reasons: abusive husbands, wife's mental illness or alcoholism, blackmail etc. The married man's OW is always a single woman and usually portrayed as loose/evil etc. Only recently have we seen society admitting that married women are having affairs.

Then...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for sex life up until about Jan. I think it has been above average, however since Jan it has crumbled to the point just before D-day she could not even look at me during sex </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based upon the time frame that you've given to me it sounds as though January was about the six month mark.

From my experience my WW had equal and possibly stronger sex drve during th ebeginning phase of her relationship. Leeding up to their sexual encounter it started to trail off. Got very spotty afterwards. I even sensed that she was just doing it "to make me happy or to shut me up."
Warning to all readers other than SR this gets a bit graphic so don't read if you're squeamish!
The sessions got shorter. Kinda like,"let's hurry up and get this over with." We had always tried to change up the sex life with different positions etc. During the period after their sexual encounter when the EA was full throttle she started to only get "on top". At the time I didn't think anything about it but in hindsight I realize that it was so she could control the situation more and make the sesions much shorter. In hindsight I also remember a few times when she came home from a "meeting" and probably due to guilt...

Whether my time line coincides with yours whether your WW started the strong EA in January and whether her attitude towards you right before DDay had anything to do with being physical with OM is just my conjecture.

Having said all of that if you want to save your marriage, you need to stop trusting her lies of ommission and commission.

Thanks for the info on the past. How about the present? Was I correct in my assumption that she refuses to end her "friendship." Have you sat her down and re-established the boundaries that make you feel comfortable?

Is she trying to work on the marriage? If so what signs has she given?

Sorry moore questions. Try to tell me where you are since DDay.

Mac

Hey Mac,

Thanks,

I went to a shrink yesterday and it helped a ton. Two years ago we moved next to my parents, they are very well off and bought the lot next to their house for us.

My wife objected origianally but I was fairly relentless and finally she succumbed to my pressure. (A word about me I am a very smooth talker and also incredibly strong willed although I am neither violent or abusive. I am relentless and I know how to manipulate arguements, I graduated from law school).

So we moved across the street from my parents, and I made it my mission to correct anything that could possibly go wrong. Although I lasted 2 years I have reached my limit, I have taken on nearly every domestic job including primary bus driver for 2 kids and I hold down a postion as in-house counsel for my parent's 300+ employee company.

Each time I took on something new, my wife would take one step back. This in turn would be another challenge and I would take another step to prove that I was strong enough to make living next to my parents perfect.

Now this may seem very noble however I married a woman who is incredibly aggressive however she displays it as PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE behavior. Therefore my direct approach to a problem NEVER addressed the real issue (making her move where she didn't want to go). If you imagine two combatants I was the aggressor while she was the martial artist. Every time I engaged she was merely setting her next counter attack.

So how do the EAs fit, she had a very brief EA 2 years ago that she now admits. Both were with very awful human beings, guys that are way below the moral and ethical standards that she and I typically hold. So why is she doing this, simply put she is doing it to counter attack me.

So now I am simply not engaging unless she is truly ready to engage. And already she is crumbling towards me. Simply by not engaging when she is in assigning fault mode either towards me or towards herself, she is powerless and it forces he to communicate at a level where we both exsist.

Therefore when she is threating to go rent a house or apartment, I used to say don't because reasons a,b,c, and d and then she would have me right where I was weakest and she would stab me with, "I don't want you to control me any more."

Now when she says I think I should just move out because I just can't think straight, I can simply say "ok I love you but I want you to feel free to make yourself better." When I do that her whole powerplay is gone. I was set up for an arguement that really doesn't exsist, which I would argue with incredible logic and force, only to be baited into the control thing. See?

So why the EA? See the first guy scared her too bad so she had to get rid of him before I could become hostile to him. Now the second guy was perfect. A year ago she admitted that he had hit on her, and I took the line HOOK LINE AND SINKER. I did all the direct things I competed for her affection I said how he just was an [censored] and all the direct and forceful reasons why she should not like him, which in turn set up her perfect counter attack opportunity. She could bait me into a mean comment about him, and then stab me where I wasn't looking with "OG is my friend." Therefore the more intense and daring and explicit it seemed the more indirect force she could exert on me.

The fact is the OG's were just clubs to whack me with and I took a severe whacking never admitting pain or showing weakness until I began to crack and go on the offensive. Which in turn gave he more opportunities to counter attack.

Basically my Wife and I have been fighting a vicious guerilla war for two years and although I would win every battle she has finally driven me into almost total collapse. But she is going to have some pretty terrible wounds to heal too, for one using people is never good even if they are *******s, another thing is she has risked everything including time with her children to win this war.

So now I have taken a neutral stance and someday we will negociate a peace treaty which I am sure will have to include moving however, she is going to have to wake up and address some needs that I have that she has abused for the last two years.

Anyway Mac, I think this kinda means that I might be graduating from this board. I AM REALLY GLAD of that, a part of me thinks that the negative images that are continueally replayed have a depressing affect. Don't get me wrong I think this is a HUGE asset, but at the same time self diagnosis is very dangerous and should not be used in lieu of a proffesional 3rd party opinion.

Thankyou for all your time and good thought they are thoroughly appreciated.

No longer Really Sad, just healing.

Hey Really Sad,

You only drove by her work twice? What a novice! I used to camp out at all hours of the night outside my H's workplace just to see if they would leave together! Insane? Yep. But completely understandable. This, too, shall pass.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Really Sad:
<strong>My wife objected origianally but I was fairly relentless and finally she succumbed to my pressure. (A word about me I am a very smooth talker and also incredibly strong willed although I am neither violent or abusive. I am relentless and I know how to manipulate arguements, I graduated from law school). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, methinks there's a bit of meat in that paragraph.

One who manipulates and uses their superior verbal abilities to put another at a disadvantage is, I believe, being emotionally abusive.

Perhaps you wife's passive-aggressive modus operandi has been fashioned by your ability to talk circles around her thoughts, wishes and desires, taking her very valid arguments and making them seem trite and illogical.

I don't suppose I would keep putting my ideas out there if my husband consistently ran roughshod over them. It would be much easier to let him "win" the argument and then show him in little passive ways that I really didn't agree to anything. See what I mean?

Read up on POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement). It helps bring balance in a relationship such as yours. Perhaps had you and your wife been practicing POJA you might possibly not be living across the street from your parents right now.

Much of what you have said shows promise. Keep reading. Learn. Love your wife. Let it show.

~ Snow