wife says she wants to make it up to me and kids, been seeing the MC alone for 4th time, to enable her to handle the guilt & I guess to learn how to relate to my sceptism & lack of trust.

She says she thinks I will never be able to accept her back and has said so since she told me of the A. I then wonder why she told me and that brings up an entirely new set of doubts.
She certainly does not appear to want to go, speaks sparingly of the OM, and then with mostly anger & bitterness and then a kind of foggy sentimentality that wants to make me either laugh or puke.

My impression is that she didn’t have the opportunity to end the A in some foggy romantic way, but that OM did a runner when his wife called him on it, me or her (My wife) . Suddenly not there, no goodbyes blah blah blah.

From what she has said even in the foggy times she was about to tell him to go away, but reality came down on her with a big thump much too soon. THen I assume the guilt set in and she NEEDED to tell me. But hey, maybe I’m way off base.

As for the SF, wife would be more then happy to have that renewed, because she has asked if we could. Had to tell her I just couldn’t right then.
Gave the reason when we where in MC, but didn’t talk about the bad dreams or my roaming around at night. Told the MC that a bit later.
So far as that goes she has no idea of the roaming around or nightmares at the moment

Well, my advice to you is to recommit to your marriage and reclaim your wife. The SF thing is very hard, but the only way to get through it is just to do it.

Yep, you have the tapes in your mind, but something tells me that since you and your wife continued SF during the A, your situation is different.

Would your wife consider posting here?

Not sure if she posts or not........I actually found this site when she was online and had left the pc on,

So I am sure she knows about it. I'll ask her if she has considered coming here as well.

As for SF I'll go see the doc as she wants and try to work throu it.

Okay Aussie, the SF needs to start. That way you will get thru that little problem. I have a couple of suggestions, since I have no idea how men feel.

On is to post a question on the recovery board. There are lots of men there who have better marriages than before, and they will give you good ideas.

The other idea is to post to Cerri on this forum. She is an expert marriage coach, and has heard it all. She may be able to give you some advice.

Aussie, the memories that are evoked in me just reading your internal struggles are, thankfully, dulled by more than 2 years in recovery.

Crucial to me and my responses is whether or not you and your wife are Christians. I don't want to "inject" Christian ideas and recommendations where they are not wanted, so I'll wait on a response from you before proceeding further.

One thing that I do want to say, regardless of your and your wife's faith position, is that what you heard from her is a TRUE statement, she thinks that nothing she can do can ever "make up" for her infidelity or get to the point where she is truly forgiven. Christian or not, if YOU can't get to the point where you truly forgive her, you won't be "married" even if you both decide to continue living together. To a large extent it has a lot to do with how YOU believe in your marriage vows because they were YOUR promise and covenant to her, regardless of what the future might hold.

God bless, comfort you, and grant you His wisdom in this time of great tribulation.

Had a really intense MC session. I don’t mean yelling or anything, no I mean we talked a lot and got into a lot of subjects related to her affair.
I’m starting to accept totally her claims that the affair had ‘nothing’ to do with me & our marriage as such, the effect has of course.
That’s hard to come to terms with.

The MC said it is consistent with what my W has told her during IC sessions ( W has given her ok to tell me ‘certain’ things now). Oh that’s another thing, MC has asked that I refer to my wife as FWW if I have to or wife on this board not WW. She said this will help me change my very negative thoughts of my w…maybe so.
So she is reading my posts as I assumed.
My wife has given me password access to her email at work if I want to check on contact with OM.
Again has repeatedly said to MC and me that there has been no contact with OM since his wife apparently confronted him around 4 months ago. Then they went to another state.

Well you can understand my doubts but, I guess I have to start somewhere don’t I?.. So I’ll accept that with my doubts. I did explain my doubts. W accepted that I have huge trust issues with her. Actually she looked very , well sad & defeated. and cried when she said this.

It true, I don’t trust her and that is so painful for me. Not long ago I would have trusted her with my life, my whole being. Now it seems as if I could never think of her fully in that way again. At least not now anyway. That’s so different from forgiveness.

So we are working through the strange fog land of reasons. Why??? Because it was something forbidden, excitement of the after work sundowner and danger of getting caught, and, get this one, because she thought she would never be caught and never have to tell me about it.
It was meant to be short duration and she still says ‘absolutely no feelings for the OM’ .
I don’t know if I am supposed to feel good or bad.
Very hard to understand and accept this scenario. But accept it I am going to have to do or end the M I guess.

She looked completely confused when she described why she had the affair. MC was convinced she is being honest in this right now. Will other issues arise with time who knows.??
The MC is not in favour of us splitting at all as she says right now it will most likely result in me & the kids being alienated from my wife/ their mum. Probably right because at the moment it seems so much easier for me to walk away then stay & work at all this crap.

The next biggy was anger. MC says she can feel my anger even though I don’t express it or even look at her in anger. Says its so cold its very intimidating from the point of view of talking about the A outside her office. Hate to admit but she is right. I am not handling as well as I wanted to and I am angry. MC says its ok to be angry . Ok then but how do I express anger or whatever I am feeling without being a Lb’er ???

MC says she is sure I have PTSD & thinks I close down all strong emotions at stressful episodes except for surface ones - not happy, not unhappy, not depressed, not much anything . Said she would like to try hypno therapy but that freaks me out. She has spoken to a colleague in Veterans Affairs who is treating this and does not recommend AD’s for me, so will have to do something.

So I am doing the best I can with what I have been given, but it all sucks right now. My only bright thing I see are the kids who seem a lot happier at the moment.

ForeverHers

both my wife & I are what you could call Catholic's with issues. MC is to by the way.

More forthightly church goers than weekly, though we are good friends with our local priest who happens to be an old school mate of mine.

Hes actually been away in Rome for 9 weeks so hope to see him pretty soon if they will send him back.

Aussie,

I read your post with great interest. When I was done I wondered "what is the plan?" Does the MC have a plan to...

A. Help your W help you protect yourself?

B. Address your anger other than hypnosis?

C. Get your W back on board with you and you with her?

I guess I am asking the following. Because your W had an A for the heck of it and because she could, then that leaves you will little to do to protect yourself from a similar decision, right?

What is your W's suggestion or the MC's suggestion as to how things will change so that YOU are protected? Is there some plan so by which you can obtain a sense of some control?

I am guessing that some of your anger is coming from this sense of NO CONTROL. "She does this, and I am supposed to just forgive her and believe she will NOT do it again?" Is that a question that sort of rattles around and agitates you?

What does your W now say to you about this? Is she finally seeing the need to apologize?

Does your MC have a plan to rebuild the feelings you lost or buried? Does she and your W talk about how to get the walls you have built to come tumbling down? Now I realize you have do this work, but most people don't work much unless there is something in it for them. Is there a plan to make something worthwhile to you?

I realize that most of the work has been focused on your W and how you interact with you, and I realize that MC is acknowledging that you are damaged by this, but is your W?

It seems to me you status right now is NOT unusual and it won't change unless something does change. Anyone offering an idea of changes other than "it won't happen again." ?

I think you should hang in there for awhile as your W does seem to be making progress and this is definitely heavy sledding you are doing. But, I think at this point you can begin to address things with your W and if so perhaps that will help.

I would really like to recommend that you acknowledge that you are angry, but look at what is causing the anger. Which of the primary emotions is causing it: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration, etc. As you identify it, then see if you can identify what now exists that drives it. Then articulate it to the MC and see if she can help.

Hang in there Aussie, you can do this.

God Bless,

JL

I got this from a PTSD pamphlet -

"Nothing in life ever seems quite the same again, even if everything works out for the best. Trauma leaves a lasting imprint of terror, horror, and helplessness on the body and the mind. The world no longer seems safe, manageable, or enjoyable. People no longer seem trustworthy or dependable. Self-doubt and guilt eat away at your self-esteem. Faith and spirituality are shaken or lost."

I think you need to be treated for the PTSD as well as go to marriage counseling. You have had a double-whammy here. No wonder you are so angry.

PTSD - yes its very much like that except it was not an issue until the Affair came out. I was having very little trouble once I was home and all seemed ok.

Besides the kids I guess my W was the only one I fully trusted and had faith in. With everyone else I expected nothing much. And of course you cant discuss some things with kids

Vet Affairs hospital says they want to try the hypnosis so I'll have to suck it and see, dont want drugs of any kind which they think wont work anyway. So I'll go this Friday.

Oh I did suggest in 'passing' to my wife that she may want to post here as well....got a strange look not sure what it meant.

I also read my opast posts and realise there is so much anger in many of the posts. Certainly appears I'm going through periods of anger and then 'I wanna get out of here' periods.

Our MC plans at this time is to treat my W & I as both IC and then jointly as in MC. Basically she is encouraging my W to tell all the details of whatever, and me to not go off at her.
Seems to be working.

But Trust is well really gone. I dont trust her at work or the shops or anywhere, if its happened once it can happen again. Thats the way I'm thinking right now.
However I'm not confident that all these feelings are what I am picking up or a mix of PTSD so I am trying not to get paranoid over it.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that I dont trust my inital reactions right now so I stop and think about them for a while.
Not sure if it helps or not but haven't done to many stupid things the last week.

A thing I wonder is where I am I in my wifes world? I dont think I have had a real apology, so is she really sorry or sorry the A ended ??

Its a wierd place to be.

Ask her to post. Then she can get some help and support.

Also you might check out PTSD treatment centers in your area:
http://www.acpmh.unimelb.edu.au/mentalhealth/treatmentPrograms.html

I forget how to do the link thing.

From what I understand, there are drugs that do help, also group therapy. I haven't read anything about hypnotism.

But glad your are addressing the problem.

Went to he vets hopsital today to try the hypno therapy for PTSD. Not hard at all, a shot to feel drowsy then not much else I can remember.

The doc reckons it may start to help right away in helping to get a nights sleep and not have nightmares .....but not to expect miracles as this works differently for eveyone. MAy need a few sessions to get significant relief but better then drugs I suppose.

Actually just doing something about it seems to help a lot.

At our last MC session I wanted to ask my w a number of questions but held off then. Maybe I hoped she would start talking to me about the A by herself, well so much for that.

These are the sort of things which go around inside of my head time & time again and I think I need some idea of what my w thought & was thinking during the affair.

So I listed them as follows, thought I'd write them down and give them to her at the MC tomorrow.

1. What did you say to yourself, what was the thing that gave you the ok to get involved with another man?

2. After you first had sex with OM, did you feel guilty at all?

3. Did you have unprotected sex?

4. Did you think about me or the kids or us at all?


5. If you felt guilty why did it go on so long if you knew it was wrong?


5. What did you tell this OM about us, me the kids?

6. Did you ever talk about being in love and about a having future together?

7. What made you want the OM & not me?

8. Was this the first time or were there previous infidelities.

9. What do you feel for me? Am I now your second choice?

10. Do you have any reason for me to stay in this M? Do you even want me to stay?

I think I need these answered to have an understanding of how I & where I stand in this mess.

The details of the actual affair itself are a separate issue but why bother if all I am is her security blanket.

You know I deserve to be more than that to anyone, especially my wife.

Besides intimacy, we are getting along ok, despite my distrust, but we dont really say much on what we feel.
Tried a few times but when I bring up the subject of us or the OM or the A she goes as cold as a iceberg.
The body is here but she isn't. I wonder at times if she is unable to ans or if she is so confused that she can't even think up anything, not even a lie.

Hmmmmm. You have not committed to the marriage, or unconditional love, and you expect her to answer these questions? I don't think so.

If you were the WS and your wife was deciding about whether to be married or not, would you want to answer these questions? Think about it.

I think believer has it right on.
I'm not saying you have to blindly trust her again all of a sudden, but I do think you should
make a choice as to whether you want to be married to her or not. Your choice has no guarantee of the outcome of all this.
If you choose to work as hard as you possibly can to restore your marriage, and she chooses the same thing with equal vigor, then those questions need to be answered. Your W needs to know that these are questions that when answered, will allow you both to continue on the path of recovery. It would probably also help for her to know that she can come to you with questions about where you stand, and to get an honest, caring answer. I think a lot of her unease of answering your questions is that she wants to know for sure that you're going to make a good go of this.

Aussie: remember what I said in a previous post? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem is that you can't FORCE someone to open up to you. But, if they feel safe enough, loved enough and accepted enough, it may become possible at some time in the future. Or may not. You can't make it happen. You can only make it safe enough to let it happen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have got to find a way to get past your anger. It will take time. this is not easy. I will suggest you ask God to help you. I know you are angry and find it hard to REALLY forgive, but He will give you the strength to do that if you ask Him. He will also help you deal with the anger, if you let him. I kinda wanted to hold on to mine. I think I felt less vulnerable when I was mad.

Yes I see there a lot of truth in what you are saying. I read all your comments early this morning and went off to my IC session.
Discussed it quite a bit.
She said no one is saying I have to accept anything OTHER than committing to trying to restore our M. Said it may end up that there will be things I can't get past just like there may be things my w may not be able to get past, never thought of that.
I want to ask those questions but if i dont commit to trying to restore the M then I can understand her comments of'Whats the use" .
So all this time she has been expecting me to leave or ask her to go.
Well I'm going to try and tell her what Im feeling and that I will try to work on restoring the m. I think I actually may have caused complications by saying to early that I forgave her, I obviously haven't fully.

I read something here that really struck me as where I am.........
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is forgiveness? I think we casually define it as a willingness to set aside our hatred or ill-will for someone who has wronged us. In a broken marriage, the BS set’s aside the hatred and retaliation toward the WS in an attempt to restore the marriage. That’s great but the process can be undermined by deep feelings of distrust and disgust that are unresolved and keep at the surface level. Often negative comments are thrown in the face of the FWS who is legitimately trying to restore.The problem is in the hurt and pain of an affair we feel justified to hold grudges or withhold trust. After all, the WS has done a horrible and terribly selfish act without thought of how their actions are destroying the lives of the people around them. If they repent and ask for forgiveness should they really get off scott-free? We feel justified to hold them at arms length or .................. to judge them. We feel “right” not to trust until significant time and consistent perfection has built back that destroyed trust.

That is our human instinct. But as it has been pointed out before, if you go by what you “feel” you will probably be wrong.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There was also a response which is somewhere where I am right now to

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Telling me to forgive is just words to me. I don't know where to start and how to do it and all of your good intentions leave me thinking it's pointless to even talk about it ... Another analogy would be to sit me down to algebra - any level algebra, as I don't understand any of it. You tell me that it's easy and to just get on with it, and I'm left thinking ok, there's all those numbers and lines and KB says I should be able to do it. But I haven't got the first clue how to do it. I don't have the skills. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think since the war I have lost something, during this mornings IC she said to me that I have brought the war home with me.

Edited this post to add something important. Had our joint MC & I did explain to my wife why I was acting as I was as much as I could explain it. I told her hat yes I was angry, bitter, hurt and in pain over what she did, but that I will really work on forgiving, not just the words. I further said that even though I was sure that I could forgive over time, it didn't mean my anger and pain and all of the other things I feel will just go away.
I told her plainly that I would not abandon our M, we might fail in the end to save it but there will bo no running away.
Then I said I really wanted for us to work at this, no promises from either of us other than to try as hard as we can......and I meant it.

I dont know exactly when I decided this but it was while I was reading a number of posts in MB, something just seemed to click into place, I don't want my life to be limited by anger alone. It might have it's place, but I want happiness again, preferrably within the family I have now.

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: aussie2 ]</small>

I think God, (or fate if you believe in that), has just given me a BIG 4x2 right in the face late this Saturday afternoon.
My wife and two kids were in our mini bus taking my son to hospital to get a brain scan due to a football injury that morning..just to be on the safe side the doc said.... well the wife was travelling behind a huge road train heading south as she turned into the hospital driveway. Just as she did so her brakes failed totally.
Had she not just reached the turn off to the hospital on the down hill part of the road she would have run into and under the huge road train wheels. There is no doubt they would have all been killed.
Not only that but the bus had been serviced less then 3 months before including the brakes. In fact we had them all replaced and seviced specifically because we do a bit of country driving.
The road into the hospital car park was just high enough to bring the bus virtually to a gentle stop........besides my wifes heart thumping like a runaway train no injuries, kids didn't even realise something was wrong it happened so quickly.
The road service mechanic which attended, we are members, said BOTH front & rear break lines burst at the same time.
However at just the time I wanted some kind of confirmation that my decision to fight for my M was right....well I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth....and I realised that I love my wife no matter what. Yes our M might fail but I want her safe and secure and as happy as she can be, even if thats without me.
A near miss like that brings it all into perspective.
Think it must of done something for her as well, we all had a great Fathers Day today.
Look I dont expect any less heartache or pain or arguments or bitterness, but, well...... it could be worse.
Oh still waiting on test results from sons scan.

aussie -

I'm thankful that your family is alright. There are worse things than infidelity. I used to be so angry at my WH and OW, but finally realized that I would not want them to die.

We did not save our marriage, and I would rather see him happy with someone else.

Aussie,

I am glad your family is safe. And yes maybe it was a message. Thrre are things worth fighting for isn't there? Now you know. Fight for it Aussie and you will NEVER regret it. You will know in your heart that you gave it your best.

Further, I suspect as these realizations come, the anger will fade some. Because gradually you will be able to identify what is driving it and what you need to deal with it.

I really like that you committed to your W to work on the marriage. You may not realize this but the oddest thing seems to occur in affairs, the WS somehow learns to NOT trust the BS. Isn't that loopy? It seems so to me.

I am thinking your comments to her went a long way toward this trust issue. Now the next hard thing to do is NOT to throw the A in her face when you are angry or mad. You can discuss it, but don't use it as a weapon. At this point no weapons are required, she has already hurt herself and her family, not to mention you.

Enough damage has been done, so it is time for rebuilding and YOU are really the leader in this. Another thing that does NOT seem fair, but if you are successful it will pay you great rewards.

I see progress Aussie, it seems you are getting good counseling, and better yet it seems you are listening to it.

I don't know how to express this any better but to say: You are a man I would be proud to know.

I think your W will be as well.

God Bless,

JL

Aussie: not only is forgiveness not complete "all at once" - you have to continue to choose to not retaliate, as feelings of hurt and anger appear - but forgiveness is only half the battle. After forgiveness (sometimes) comes reconciliation. THAT requires the participation of the other person involved. No one wants to go back to the same kind of relationship they had before, where they were betrayed. So there is a lot of rebuilding trust that needs to go on, as well as change of both people involved.

It's hard work.