About your first topic, I think the talk from a WS about their affair partner being a great person etc, has more to do with the WS than the OP.
To face the reality of the true nature of the OM,
they themselves have to look directly at their own choices, if I'm making sense....
To be able to agree that OM was a jacka$$, etc. It is the same thing as looking in the mirror and calling herself a jacka$$ for doing it.

And this isn't the same as just words to you saying "I screwed up big time." It's looking at herself and owning the stupid decision.
There are so many people out there who live their entire lives making foolish mistake after another, with always someone else to blame, someone else made them do it, someone else's fault..etc..
For her to really take a good long look at her inner self and to find the reasons why she did what she did... takes some courage...and some time...

As to the question about the child you found out about.. I don't know. I don't know what I would even do.
I mean, your W has to be told at some point.
Yeah, you could always never tell her, and she'd probably never find out even. But then again, you have to look at yourself in the mirror everyday, and it will wear on you, keeping it secret.
If it were me, I'd probably hold off a bit, but I think you ought to talk to your counselor in private about it right away.
That way, when it's time to talk to your W about it, counselor can tell your W that you both dicussed it together already. Your marriage therapist may suggest telling immediately, or maybe not.
The more I think about it, if you and your W have already had discussions about radical honesty on both your parts, maybe this is a great way to prove to her that you are making good on it.

Any secret between you and wife creates walls and that leads to some sort of emotional disconnection. This is what I tell my wife all the time------ complete honesty is best!

Aussie -

Yikes! I went through kinda the same thing with my kids' dad. We had been divorced for several years. My husband and I were on vacation in Las Vegas. I called home to check on my boys, and they told me their sister had called.

I was blown away. I had no knowledge of a sister. When I got home, I called this young lady. She told me that my ex-husband was her father. She was a product of a relationship that my ex had before he met me.

Then to mix things up even more, my ex died. So I still talk to this girl and she is coming down to visit with her children and husband. She has sent me pictures of her kids, and they look exactly like my kids.

We have even talked about getting DNA tests to find out for sure.

Sorry this is so long, but I think at some point you need to tell your wife. Children tend to look for their parents. You wouldn't want your wife to be completely surprised.

Hi Aussie,

Yes, about your first point I agree that there is denial about making such wrong choices. Also in my case, I didn't want H to think that I was justifying myself by saying it was all OM's fault - actually I thought it was really MY fault.

There were a lot of things about OM that I would not have been able to cope with at all if we had been in a "real" relationship. We wouldn't have lasted a week. When you're on an ego high and feeling sexy (which I think is another word for being in the fog) you only see what you want to see. Later you regret that you have hurt your S and that you fell for the OM, and then much later, I think, do you see that actually OM was a loser who did the wrong thing at least as much as you did, and therefore, you made a doubly wrong choice - ie hurt someone you care about deeply for the sake of an ego boost from a loser..... talk about losing all self-respect and ego going way into the negative.

Its still quite painful for me to dig up those kind of thoughts, given that at this moment H is away havign a fun weekend with a female friend (its not secret,I've met her and her BF and its supposedly not an A in any way: but I was not invited and neither was her BF). I told him how I felt about it - he listened, but he went anyway.

About your second point, I suppose its predictable what people here will say, but I also think you need to tell your W. As you say, if you are going in for radical honesty, its very important, and as Stanley said, any kind of secret creates a barrier in your R - thats why your W had to tell about her A. I don't know if others will agree, but I would think about waiting till you are on slightly firmer ground in counselling over her A. Because i think you are right, she might take it as a kind of tit for tat if you tell right now. But good on you for contemplating this, it will take guts.

Smur sorry it has brought up old & painful memories. I am grateful for you sharing what you experienced with me. It does help to know when I am on the right track because sometimes I wonder if I'm going bonkers.

The tit for tat thing. I did think of that for a while I have to admit. Had I opportunity right at that time would I have??? Well I would like to think I would not have but I cannot be sure, I really wanted to make her hurt like i did. If I have learnt anything over the years its that the best of us can act like the worst of us given the right or wrong circumstances. I'm no more immune than anyone.

Did you know that even now, she has said to me that if I ever cheated she would be gone. Unbelievable or what???

Radical honesty, a great concept for you to impose on a ws, of course you forget that YOU have to be that way as well. You know the first time it hit me that I was included in that I felt so indignant and thought 'I didn't cheat why should I.I dont have to' ...wry laugh at myself. Pride, nothing like it bouncing back & hitting you right between the eyes is it?

Well I think I'll wait until we a bit along on the recovery before I drop that one along with
having signed up again 2weeks after DD. I think I'll have trouble with that one.
And I still dont like being touched by anyone, well hugged anyway to be more exact, not at first anyway. Daughter picks it up every time and says its ok Dad its me, then I relax ok, wife before DD could pick it as well. Now not sure if she can or I wont let her.

Mmm just a big sigh,..... are you guys really sure this honesty thing is a good idea for all this

ok I know, I'm just avoiding it. MC has been slowly guiding us towards it but where does it start and where should it stop? Are there limits to what you should say. Once it was all so easy to say anything, now, well it can be like walking on egg shells.

Believer

the kid was news to me too, but I suppose his mother might have to tell him one day re things like blood type etc.

Even if it was something that happened before I went out with her I guess my wife needs to know & maybe the kids.

Well I wont rush into it right now.
But I'm not this youngs mans dad really, I may have sired him unknowingly, but the bloke who brought him up, loved him and looked after him is his Dad. I'm not going to throw any wrench into that family thats for sure.

<small>[ October 02, 2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: aussie2 ]</small>

Aussie,

I'm glad that my thoughts on my huge learning experience can be helpful to someone, its much better than thinking the whole thing is just a painful and completely unnecessary waste of x months (years?? gulp!) of my life!

I can understand your reaction to the radical honesty being applied to both members of the couple. Maybe you still feel that she has a lot to make up for. My H has the same issue with POJA - initially he liked the idea, and he is happy for me to consult with him about what i do, but when it comes to him not doing things that he wants to do that I am not happy about....

Well I think it takes time to overcome your natural resentment about her terrible decisions. Also for you and your W to just spend fun time together and maybe start to feel more generous towards each other. Then maybe it will seem more natural that you are also radically honest and POJA all major decisions.

If you really want a better relationship in the future with no possibility of As, then I think radical honesty is really the only way to go. I read somewhere on this site about a woman who's H seemed to her to be emotionally distant for years, and it only came out years later, after she had an A, that he had had his own A before they even married and kept it secret the whole time.
Obviously your situation is different and you didn't have an A - also it doesn't sound to me like you have been emotionally distant from your W - but I guess the potential for emotional distance is there whenever there is something that can't be discussed . It sounds like your MC is a really good one and she is leading you into this pretty gently.

very strange this morning.

wife seems very quite and a bit nervous for some reason. I asked her what was wrong and she um'ed and ar'ed for a while until she told me ahe posted on MB here last night.

My response was 'oh'. I immediately thought she had read my posts and expected something about the kid which was supposed to be mine, but nothing. She told me she would not read my posts until she felt right about doing so.
Well I picked up that hint right away. asked do you want me to leave your posts alone until you feel you want me to read them, well got a yes until she feels ok about it.
Well I can live with that if it means she can post freely. Told her she can read mine if she wants. warts & all. SHe said no I dont want to right now.

Seems a bit weird at first but there it was her post this morning on the board. I have to admit my curser was over it for a while but I didn't go into it. Maybe I can start the trust thing here. its not much but its a start right?

Curious yes, but not that curious to break my word to her. I guess we'll see

wouldn't worry about it at all.
Hopefully sometime soon you both can post together in the same thread.

I agree that its a positive thing and it would be even better if you could post on the same thread at some stage. Right now I guess you're both searching for answers in your own ways. I think there's so much hope for both of you and you've both got your heart and soul in this.

Pssst Aussie,

Don't tell but I had a look at her post. You have nothing to fear. Just a woman trying to figure out how to put her marriage back together knowing she has hurt her H so much. We'll take care of her for you don't worry.

Don't tell her I said this, but try and listen to her and Aussie I think you will find you do have a woman that does love you. You two have many things going for you.

That is all of the spying reports I can give. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I sort of laughed at your talking about the "radical honesty" thing. I beleive we all have that feeling "great idea spouse please do that", "Me??? no I don't need that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> "

Please take care of yourself and do your best to address the affects of your combat, both physical and mental. It will help you, and it will help her, and surely your family. It seems to me you do have a family that does love you. You are a luckier man than you know. Yup, even with the A, you are. It is time to start counting those blessing Aussie, you have had a few.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL or is it Sherlock now??... lol

Well I've been good and stayed away from her posts until she tells me ok.
why do I feel it seems like a little test from my W to see if she can trust me? MMmm see how the worm turns.

So I did tell her about the other child I apparently had - that still seems so strange to say. You know I just about had to change my daks I was a bit nervous. I was not sure how she would react given our issues right now but took a big deep breath and plunged ahead.
She seemed to accept it ok but I'm sure I saw her give me a very wry or smug look as I explained. Not sure whats that about unless she has read my posts already and was waiting to see if I would discuss it.
Appears not to be a issue, so thats good.

Tomorrow is MC day.

Trust is one of the big things to discuss,
I still would like her to get a less stressful
job,
what about future stress times & her reactions to it,ie drinking & partying,
willingness to discuss details without being so defensive.

Big day I think.

Aussie,

Good luck with the MC!

I think, from reading your wife's posts, that the two of you are well on your way... maybe further than you think. Hope it goes well. Good on you for your radical honesty. Well done!

G'day everyone

well I went fishing with a mate in his boat for a few days. Its great to just get away for a while no thinking about this crap or anything.
Caught 5 black Bream over 2 days which is not bad being damn cunning fish. Got a few small Mulloway but threw them back with a Rex Hunt kiss ..lol You'd have to be in Aus to understand that one!! Smur probbably gets it..lol

So Im on holidays from all this right now and am just winding down a bit but may go fishing again next weekend. Depends on if I fix the patio which had a roof truss damaged during a Spring storm last week. Snapped it clean in half so will have to replace the jarrah beam.

have a good one all and I'll catch up in a day or so.

Hi Aussie,

Good to hear that you're back. I was hoping you were ok. Sounds like you had a relaxing time.

Fishing for bream sounds great to me right now. I'm off for a week to Okinawa (tropical part of Japan) on Friday - can't wait to get out of this place... although as someone on another post said - its Hotel Marriagebuilders here - you can check out any time but you can never leave.

OK, I’ll bite. What’s a Mulloway and what’s a Rex Hunt kiss?

Sorry, but if it’s not a Steelhead and near freezing rain, it’s not fishing.

T

Well Thos

Mulloway… they are beaut to catch and as for eating, yum, In WA we call them "Kingies" and the folks in the east call them Jewfish but, whichever way you look at it, there are few WA anglers that don’t dream of catching a big mulloway at some point in their fishing career.

The mulloway is pretty widespread throughout all but the northern areas of Australia with western South Australia and Carnarvon, in WA’s Gascoyne region, the most widely accepted hotspots. But we also get decent ones in the Swan river and off Rottenest Island about 12 miles off Fremantle harbour.
The Australian record is just over 40kg or 90 lb but some friends who are real enthusiasts for fishing say that some mulloway from South Africa and Madagascar are enormous. Come on Lotto & I‘m off!!!
They are rarely caught in deep offshore waters as they normally live close to the coast and spend a great deal of their lives in river and estuary systems.
One of my mates caught a 25 lb fish off the jetty here not long ago, that fish was about half his height, & he did it in under an hour, …[censored]….lol

Live baits work best and if conditions are right, they can slog it out with the best snapper. They tend to run in powerful bursts and have lots of stamina. Great fun from the beach or rivers edge. In the moon light seems to be best time.
Min length is 17 inches & mine were just about that but if you let these little ones go they will hopefully grow into BIG ones.

However if you really want man verses fish in an all out battle of the wits and power, then you have to go for the sambo or Samsonfish. It gets the adrenaline pumping like nothing else when your line takes off like someone hooked you up to the non-stop Armadale train express.
Samsonfish are about as tough as they come. They fight hard, pull like freight trains and have little respect for tackle, not only tough but quite fast and will run long and sometimes fight to the death.
You can eat them but you’d have to be hungry. I just let them go as most do. The fun is catching them.

Now the Rex Hunt kiss...........well Rex is a well known x footaller who also is a very good fisherman and has a national fishing show here. Hes very big into the catch and release and kisses the fish before releasing them, bit of fooling around so its sort of caught on, esepcially when you have drunk a slab of beer - thats 30 cans of beer....lol

You know, I have had a sort of brain storm about my wife and M.

You see I dont really NEED either and never have. I suppose thats why I am good at what I do.

However not needing them is entirely different from not WANTING them. Maybe it makes no sense to anyone but me but thats ok. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Aussie,

Is this along the lines of "they can kill you but they can't eat you?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, I think it is healthy to realize that you don't NEED the marriage or the W. What that means is you have a choice and if you WANT them you have the control in the situation to chose them. It sort of empowers you doesn't it??

I am hoping that you will realize that your marriage, your W, and your children are a good package together and that while you don't NEED the marriage or the W, you can find joy in them, and by the same token bring joy to them.

I think you are fully capable to doing that. I have again been doing some sleuthing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I think you have on your hands a woman that is very dedicated to you and the marriage. You know what they say, sometimes you have to almost lose something before you truely value it. I think your W has come close to actually losing you, and the marriage. Aussie, I don't have much fear of being wrong, I think you are very valued now. And because of that her value to you also rises.

Some more things to think about.

God Bless,

JL

Mulloway sounds somewhat like a large King Salmon. Do they migrate/spawn upriver like salmon?

My favorite fishing is for Steelhead (Oncorhynchus mykiss) - a large feisty anadromous rainbow trout. Very good eating. Better than salmon.

Check out -
http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/protalk/thornton/steel/steel9.phtml.

The pictures on that site are lying, BTW. The only time a true steel header goes out is if it is below freezing and the sleet is coming in horizontal.

Rottenest Island is a cool name. Should be in a kids pirate story.

T