What would it be?

Not about specifics of your situation, but about infidelity itself.

Why do we both BS and WS let our shame keep us from telling the world about how tragic this epidemic really is?


By the way i can't answer that question myself.

Oz

Well, my educated guess is that it has to do with our cultural conditioning about love and betrayal. First of all, we call affairs love stories - both with celebrities and with everyday folk. So it's almost excusable to have an affair if it's "true love." But it's not so excusable to be the betrayed partner and want to save the marriage. Look at the lashing Hilary got!

And then there's that whole thing about being abandoned and feeling like it's about us. As if we aren't good enough, thin enough, young enough, tall enough, smart enough, rich enough..... the list is endless. So when we talk about our spouse having an affair there's a queasiness about it - we feel like people are secretly judging us through their sympathy.

We don't talk about it because it's about sex. It never fails to amaze me that in a society that sexualizes everything we can't talk about the realties of sex within intimate relationships.

The entire dynamic of infidelity is filled with mixed messages. We say as a nation we believe in monogamy, and yet 60-80% of marriages are directly affected by infidelity.

We say we believe in commitment but we condone leaving simply because we are attracted to someone else. We say we believe in commitment but we insist that the betrayed spouse should immediately seek divorce and act as if s/he is somehow flawed for wanting to keep a family together.

Faced with all that, you can see why couples who have dealt with infidelity don't want to speak about it publicly. It's scary and it marks you as somehow 'different' - when in fact you are in the majority.

As Betty Ford did with breast cancer we can do with infidelity. The more of us that speak out about our experiences - particularly those that highlight healing - the more we can change the perception of the world around us.

What we really need are former straying partners to and affair partners to speak out about their experiences. What most of us don't know - unless you hear it all day every day the way I do - is that these people suffer just as much as the betrayed mate. They are lost and confused and hurting and stuck in this mess of their own making.

When I watched the special about Amy Grant and Vince Gill it was immediately apparent to me that there was an awful lot of pain in the background that wasn't being acknowledged. That's what our media should focus on.

C

cerri:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What we really need are former straying partners to and affair partners to speak out about their experiences. What most of us don't know - unless you hear it all day every day the way I do - is that these people suffer just as much as the betrayed mate. They are lost and confused and hurting and stuck in this mess of their own making. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the case of my wife, I'd say that she suffered (and is still suffering) much more than I did. That WS gig isn't as glamorous as it appears.

My question would be "How do we effectively reverse the tide of infidelity (and failed marriages)?"

We like to think that grand gestures will change the tide. They don't. It takes one voice at a time - trembling, perhaps, with emotion and fear - to speak out.

It was one very angry mother of a murdered child to launch the national campaign we now know as MADD. If you're as old as I am you remember the days when drinking and driving was not legal but no one really made a big deal of it. And you probably can recall that legal limits of blood alcohol have continued to decline to the point where a single drink can be too much - particularly if you're not all that large physically.

Politicians and church leaders can't do this work. They can promote it, but they can't do it. The voices that have the greatest impact are those that have been there. And, as I said before, the ones who had the affair and are willing to speak out about its tragic effects are the ones who will do the greatest good.

People on all sides of the triangle listen to me because I've been there. I can empathize with them when they talk about withdrawal or resentment. I've lived that drama and I know the pain and the fear. If we can break the shame barrier somehow and get people to speak out then that will be the beginning of the turning of the tide.

The other thing that's really in our favor right now is all the biological research going on. When we can point to Helen Fisher's work - among others - and talk about the biochemistry of infatuation it has a lot more weight than simply pushing the idea of commitment as a moral obligation.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
<strong> But it's not so excusable to be the betrayed partner and want to save the marriage. Look at the lashing Hilary got! </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think about that quite a bit, which is one of the reasons why I've never told anyone about my wife's affair. I'm afraid they'd look at me and think I was nuts for staying.

And I think K is accurate about the guilt of the WS. I know my wife feels very guilty over what she did, but she keeps a lot of it inside and doesn't show it much.

I think "relationship" skills (like those taught here) should almost be a part of something taught at High School. It's something everyone would need, and boy, if I (and my wife) knew some of these things then as we do now I'm certain that things for us would have turned out differently.

-HD

<small>[ August 12, 2004, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: HurtingDeeply ]</small>

Actually, I think that guilt is not the right word. It's shame more than guilt. Guilt says "I did a bad thing," and that allows for making amends, learning from it, creating a better future, and moving forward. Shame says, "I am a bad person." If that's the case and you are flawed in some way then there is no where to go with that. You end up feeling stuck and humiliated and just plain yukky.

So then, how do we deal with shame? By accepting the darker parts of ourselves. We are all at risk for having an affair or doing any other number of terrible things. We all could be Hitler under the right condtions. When we can accept the things we've done as harmful acts and when we can use what we learned from that experience to make our lives or those of the people around us better we begin to heal. I believe we don't heal until we do just that.

In 12 step programs after admitting powerlessness, taking fearless inventory, and making amends the final step is to reach out and help others who find themselves somewhere on the path of recovery. The reason is that internal healing occurs when we accept where we've been and what we've done and instead of beating ourselves up for it (really just a way to not do a whole lot of hard work) we take that experience and create something better.

The exact same dynamic is true of affairs. Yep, they are really rotten unethical things to do. But living with shame and humiliation because of it doesn't do anyone any good. It's a really unpleasant way to avoid the pain of getting healthy. People who have affairs (or other addictions) and who heal themselves and their marriages do so by accepting this part of themselves and their history, by reaching out to others in pain, and by letting go of the need to punish themselves.

C

Shame is a good word! My wife has on more than one occasion likened her "problem" to a drug addiction. She tells me she has to always be on guard now, and to recognize that she has a "flaw."

I think she accepts herself, but still punishes herself internally. She doesn't show it, but I sense she does at times.

I think that's why she doesn't speak out, and why I don't too.

(Except on an anonymous message board).

Shame.

-HD

PS - I like what you did on your other board.

Keep it up!

But acceptance and internal punishment are mutually exclusive. She may accept the "fact" that she is flawed (she's not) but she's not accepting that she did something crummy, made amends, and is now moving on to create a better future.

You see the same sort of thing with people who have been victimized in one way or another. We all know people who were abused, neglected, molested, incested, raped, whatever who have overcome that trauma and moved on to do great things - either for the world or in their own lives. And then there are those who suffered similarly who whine and carry on and blame all their present circumstances on something that happened years ago. That's not acceptance - that's allowing a small part of your life to dictate and control the rest of it. Doing so gives the affair or the whatever waaay more power than it had in the first place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PS - I like what you did on your other board.

Keep it up! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shhhhh..... I'm incognito today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But thank you.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But acceptance and internal punishment are mutually exclusive. She may accept the "fact" that she is flawed (she's not) but she's not accepting that she did something crummy, made amends, and is now moving on to create a better future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right about them being mutually exclusive. I'm not quite sure how to put it. She has accepted that she did something crummy, made amends, and is moving on to create a better future...but I still think there is some guilt/shame hiding in there somewhere. It comes out in subtle signs once in a while. Hard to describe.

On a brigher note...we're leaving Saturday for a week in Hawaii to celebrate our 10-Year Anniversary. It will be the first time in years we've been away from the kids that long, and it will give us a great opportunity to "re-connect" and do a little "marriage-building" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

We're both really looking forward to the "alone" time.

One of the "4 Rules" that always seems to slip away from us is the one on Time.

Need to work on that...

Why should we bother with marriage?

I really don’t think I have the capacity to become Hitler or a WS. When I thought about another man in my last marriage (after 7 years, two attempts at MC, anti-d’s, separations, etc), I got a divorce. It didn’t occur to me that I could have both men; I occurred to me that I should get out of my marriage.

If we all have the capacity to become Hitler, and infidelity affects such a high percentage of marriages, what in the world could convince me to sign up for this ride again? I’m in my mid 30’s but I swear, if H got hit by a bus tomorrow, I’d not remarry. I did nothing to deserve the pain my H’s have brought me. Although my current M is lovely, I apparently haven’t the capacity to select a proper mate (apparently I’m not alone). Is it just a flawed system?

Thanks - Dru

Yes shame, and at least for the BS, reluctance to hurt your spouse - because bringing up the topic is painful and embarrassing to THEM, not just the BS. My PRIMARY reason for not sharing our story more often is a desire to protect my wife from what others might think about her or react toward her. Yes, there is a small amount of embarrassment on my part, because I think there is an assumption that people do not stray without reason, so my wife's affair reflects poorly on me as a husband. But, I'm not really all that concerned about that - if that was the only issue, I would share much more often.

Hi John <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I think that fear of embarrassing or hurting the one who had the affair and is now back in the marriage is a big part of the equation that keeps people from speaking up. I readily admit that I'm a bit eccentric, but what I'd like to see is that these are the people we praise and celebrate. No, not because they had an affair, but because they had the courage and integrity to do the right thing, end the affair, and recommit to their marriage.

Right now, we praise the people who have affairs and leave their marriages - we call it love stories. "They found their soulmate and pursued their own happiness - how wonderful for them." <gag> Forgetting of course the destruction to at least one home, usually two, and the resulting effects on the kids whose childhood had come to an abrupt and final end.

Or we praise the ones whose spouses had affairs and who get on their arrogant pedestal and immediately file for divorce - usually starting their own affair before it's finalized. We think of them as martyrs and victims who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps in the face of terrible odds.

But the couples who do the really hard work of putting the shattered pieces of the marriage back together, the ones who stick it out through withdrawal and resentment - rebuilding trust and addressing the underlying issues in the marriage -- these are the unsung heroes. These are the ones who should be held up as models for society. These are the guardians of marriage and family.

How many people really 'get' that infidelity affects at least 60% and probably closer to 80% of marriages in this country. When you go to church or your kid's football game this week, look around. That's 6-8 out of ten of the families you see there. There are lots and lots of people out there who've been hit with this tragedy who are working it out. When we celebrate faithfulness to our marriage vows it's people like you and your wife and all the others who are working on recovery that we celebrate.

C

Hey Dru -

Why should we bother with marriage?

It's a good question. I'm not sure there's a definitively good answer, but I'll tell you what I think.

Marriage is the basic building block of our society. Why is that? Well, really it's about the kids. Children are what keep the human race alive on the planet. Without children, we'd be extinct. (although I sometimes think that children might be what causes us to become extinct - but that's the raving of a mom at the end of the summer)

So, to preserve the human race, we need kids. And to keep us healthy and alive - we need healthy kids who will continue to propagate the race. It would be best if they grew up to be responsible, ethical, adults capable of and interested in bringing the next generation to the planet and raising them to be responsible, etical adults.

Per our current culturual infrastructure the best way we have to ensure that happening is within a nuclear family - where kids are raised by their parents. Kids, under our current societal set up, do best when they are raised by parents whom they've known from birth - for most kids that's mom and dad.

Is that the only way kids do well or is it the only system that would work? I don't think it is. But it's what we have in place, and what has been in place for centuries. Instead of addressing marriage and the things needed to make it work, one could address the overall societal structure, some - like the Farm in TN - have tried that. But that's a much bigger undertaking, it makes this battle for marriage look like a skirmish over the tv remote.

I really don’t think I have the capacity to become Hitler or a WS.

Mmmm.... yes I know. But it can happen, it takes the right set of circumstances and the right pressures at the right time. We ALL have the capacity for great good or great evil - it's what makes us human. Most of us attain neither and settle for mediocrity - but the capacity is there.


If we all have the capacity to become Hitler, and infidelity affects such a high percentage of marriages, what in the world could convince me to sign up for this ride again?

LOL - I hear ya! But that brings us back to kids and the need to propagate the race. Our drive to connect and be sexual with another person is hardwired into our brains. What would convince you? Your own chemistry. Not for everyone, obviously, but for most of us.

Is it just a flawed system?

Oooohhhhh an even more intriguing question. You have to assume it is, since we're human and we all have flaws. Some like to tell us that humans are by nature monogamous (obviously they don't read the email in my inbox) but new research is provacative in its suggestion that we are not. Even animals that were previously thought to mate for life are now being shown to have "cheated." DNA of their offspring tell us that 10-25% of the babies are not related to both 'monogamous' parents.

I would conjecture that any system is going to be flawed. The question then becomes, what do we do to increase our awareness of the risks those flaws create and to then build precautions to protect ourselves and our marriages from those risks.

I really doubt that you are incapable of choosing a 'good' partner. Marriage is hard hard work. We have this myth in our society that if we are whole and healthy we'll choose a partner who is whole and healthy and our marriages will be smooth sailing. Not true. The only way to build and nurture good relationship skills is in a relationship - and those are entirely different skill sets than those of a healthy individual. It's not that there's something wrong with you - it's just needing to build strengths and awareness in different areas than you would if you were alone.

C

How heavily does Low Self-Esteem enter in as a factor for WS's becoming involved in an affair? And how should it be treated?

Thank you, Cerri,

I do understand about children needing both parents... I never wanted children.

And you're right; all systems are flawed. I'm just thinking the stakes are too high in this game. But I've had many more good days than bad with my H. I just dont think I would risk it again. Ce là Vie.

Thank you for all you do - Dru

In my case:


My wife had a two year affair, 1st year EA over the phone and email--------------- 2nd year PA every 2 months, then every 2 weeks (OM flew into town). After D-day my wife stopped affair and said she always loved me and had no idea she was hurting me. She claimed I should have never known about the affair and actually blamed me for my snooping. She even became hypersexual with me for about one month following D-day.

The question is:

What goes on inside the mind of folks who do this sort of thing?

I can understand a roll in the hay for simple sexual gratification.

I can understand using the affair to exit the marriage if there is no love.

I can understand a completely neglected wife (she was not).

WHY!

BTW, her OM is not anywhere close to me in looks, values, education, income, physical fitness (I am thin, OM is fat), ect, ect.

What was she thinking?

I wish could understand this infidelity business!

BOREDOM! Is that the answer?

A loyal husband

<small>[ August 13, 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Well I have a question of why of course But I guess that could many or none so........... why is it that WS will not talk about the A, how long, the whys etc. Is this common or rare?

I have tried to make it a safe place for her to talk even though thats broken down in the last two weeks but even before just no talking about it.

Is that usual?

Hi girl.

How does one distinguish a WS's personality disorder from unmet needs as the root of the infidelity?

WAT