Cy -
I am in Plan B and I am at a loss on what to do but even more so in understanding my WW actions especially of late. I have posted in GQ2 " Can Someone Translate For Me". If time and your patience permit, I would greatly appreciate your take on my situation.

I would love to read your thread and comment, but unfortunately time constraints don't give me room to do that. But let me comment a briefly on PlA and a bit on PlB and you can tell me if it helps.

PlA is, in the words of Dr. Bill Harley - founder of MB - "a negotiating strategy to end an affair." It has nothing to do with being nice and is far more about bursting the fantasy bubble of an affair than it is about looking good in the eyes of you straying spouse. While in PlA you should be first and foremost exposing the affair and confronting both your spouse and the AP. Simultaneously you need to be eliminating demands, disrespect, angry outbursts, DISHONESTY, independent behavior, and annoying habits. You do NOT need to be perfect, you just need to examine your stuff and begin to make adjustments.

You can attempt to meet your spouse's needs. What we know anecdotally from this site and mine and is that meeting needs will not bring your spouse home. With the release of Helen Fishers work, which I talked about above in the conversation about biochemistry, is that when the romantic love receptors are being filled by someone (such as an AP) they are not available to anyone else. Attempting to win your spouse back with flowers, lots of sex, tons of affection, or even to some extent admiration is not going to work. You simply annoy them.

BUT - attachment can be enhanced during this time. The needs I tell people to aim for are ones like family commitment, domestic support, light/fun/pleasant/curious conversation, financial support as long as you're not financing the affair (do stuff for the house and the family). One the one front you aim for a calm and pleasant home, while on the other you rock the affair boat as hard as you possibly can. If you feel a bit like Jeckyl and Hyde - you're close to getting it right.

You do this for a short time. Bill Harley says you do it until you START to feel like you're going crazy. When I talk to people I ask them at their first session to start thinking about a time line. If you do this too long you enable the affair (see post to TTSI above) and your energy and willingness to stick it out disappear. Both those things make you the greater threat to the marriage.

Then you go to PlB. Where you are. I assume you sent a letter that included these necessary points:
I love you
I married you for life
I want to stay married to you
This thing you're doing is so painful for me that I must remove myself completely from the situation.
As soon as the affair is permanently ended I would love to talk about the conditions for reconciling.
At that time we can begin to address what needs to be fixed in our marriage.
Emergency info regarding kids and finances can be sent through_____.

And then you remove yourself from the situation. If you are in PlB you really don't need to be worrying about what she's doing. This is a time to take care of you, to recharge, to detach, to get a life. Go out with your friends - same sex/advocates of your marriage. Start a hobby. Volunteer somewhere (Marriage Fidelity Day could use you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

We like to think that by keeping the marriage and the progress of the affaif in the forefront of our brains we have some influence on it. We don't. Let it go, take care of you. When the affair ends, if she decides she's willing to do what you need to reconcile, you are going to need more strength than you can possibly imagine right now. You're not going to have that if you're expending your energy worrying about the affair.

If you know how she's acting - you're not protecting yourself or your marriage. Find a way to remove yourself even further. Until the affair is over and she makes a move to come home your job is to take care of you.

C

First of all, let's hit the most important stuff....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Furnitureman - ok, so I'm dying of curiosity - do you make furniture, sell furniture, restore antiques? (One of our favorite weekend pursuits is to make the rounds of the furniture and antique stores.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ethan

Huh. Is that where the furnitureman name comes from? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jackpot. You nailed it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And no, that's not me......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> With your wife being as young as she is and having so many affairs in such a short time I'm inclined to wonder about a lot of things. Sexual or other abuse in her background? Addictions in her family? Circumstances surrounding your relationship? How the first one started? Stuff like that - I'd want to peek inside her head.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Abuse? Don't think so...

Addictions in her family? Her uncle is an alcoholic, but that's about it...

Circumstances? I guess the best way to describe our relationship was me as 100% giver, her as 100% taker. No abuse, harsh judgements etc....

First affair? A boss, known womanizer, I still don't know who pursued more, he or she, although I imagine both are culpable. Every A has been with a co-worker...

The only "outside influence" I really see is that her mom is on her 3rd marriage. First guy was abusive, divorced when WW was 3(ish). Second guy also a loser, divorced when WW was 18. Third guy is great. I think that WW has seen her mom "get happy" by changing her partner, and I presume she is attempting to do the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Depends on how willing you are to abandon being nice in favor of protecting your marriage and how much she got hurt in the process of having these affairs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure I understand this statement. "...how willing to abandon being nice..."

Thanks!!!!
Ethan

<small>[ August 24, 2004, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: thefurnitureman ]</small>

Cerri:

I talked to my wife about withdrawal last night. She said it is better, but still has a lot of confusion. She even said that all this data about the rate of relationship failure when WW and OM try to live together is bogus and does not apply to her. She believes it could work for her, but she does not want to take a chance. This is a turnaround from a few weeks ago when she acknowledged it would be crazy for her to leave the marriage and try to make it with the OM when the failure rate was 90%.

I think she is very defensive about anything that sounds negative regarding the OM. She somehow wants to glorify everything.

My wife knows I am incapable of committing adultery whereas her OM did it twice before leaving his wife. I asked her why would she go for a man who could also be unfaithful to her. She proudly said that no man could ever be unfaithful to her because she was a great wife and she could provide ALL THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

She also thinks the OM is a great dad even thou one of his kids is in psych treatment as a result of his infidelity. My wife them blamed the wife of the OM for revealing the infidelity to the kids.

This is really uncanny-------- there is not a single category where the OM scores better than I do except for the fact that my wife really gets horny for him. That does not bother me either because I know it is the typical response to a NEW BODY in bed. I would also feel quite horny if I had a brand new woman in bed with me. The novelty of a new relationship is something that I cannot compete with.


Not sure how to proceed from her. I believe she needs counseling.




Do you have a web site?

What should my next step be with my wife?

I think she wants to stay, but this confusion in her head drives me nuts.

Should I keep showing her the stupidity of a relationship built on fantasy, deceit, lies, and secrecy?

The affair was basically a long distance relationship and the physical meetings were mainly in a dark hotel room for copulation. I don’t think she has a clue about what normal life would be like with the OM. BTW, once the OM went to sleep after sex and he snores VERY LOUDLY! This is something I don’t do.

<small>[ August 24, 2004, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

SpouseGuess,
There seems to be a recurring theme of the WS not wanting to tell the whole truth even after they admit to the affair. This seems to hinder recovery for the BS, but the WS can hold out forever. Why hold back on the whole story if they know it will help recovery even if it is more painful in the short term?

Well it's any number of things or combination of a number of things. Once again we are back to the "being nice" and the desire to avoid further conflict and seeing the destruction it causes on the marriage. People who end affairs and recommit to the marriage don't want to see their spouses hurt - more accurately, they don't want to deal with their own feelings about the hurt their spouse will feel.

The problem is that you have pictures in your head that are probably worse than reality. Not knowing is definitely worse than reality.

For many that I hear from they are afraid that their spouse will leave if they know the entire truth. It's true - they might. But without complete information straying partners are expecting their mates to stay in a marriage under something very close to false pretenses. If you are going to have an affair and then want to come home you need to be willing to accept the fact that your mate has a right to know what happened and that s/he also has a right to leave if the information is too much to deal with. It's really a control issue.

It could also be that there's been control or abuse on the part of the betrayed partner and now the wayward one is afraid to give details for fear of what might happen. That is a valid reason and one that needs to be addressed before expecting honesty.

And then of course there's embarassment and a desire to just move on and forget about it. Married couples don't talk about married sex very well - it's a whole lot harder to talk with your spouse about betrayal sex with someone else. Ouch.

I see this over and over and every book I read on the subject says that the WS should be willing to tell the whole story if the BS asks for it if they want to move forward in recovery.


Yes, the books all say that. Unfortunately many of the counselors and therapists do not. I've even known pastors and other faith leaders to counsel against being honest. That certainly doesn't help!

The thing you need to do is to practice transparent honesty in all your interactions with your wife. This includes and especially means how you feel about the small day to day events. You'll need to make being honest very safe for her - and you'll need to thank her for whatever she shares with you even if it's horrifically painful.

C

Furnitureguy -

Jackpot. You nailed it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And no, that's not me......

I would hope not!! Considering the original died in 1789. Ooohhh.... shades of my childhood spent watching Dark Shadows just crept up on me! lol

Ok, so first you tell me there was no abuse, and then you tell me that her mom's first 2 husbands were abusive. Ya think that might have influenced her a bit?

So what happened after her first affair? How did you find out and what did you do?

I'm not sure I understand this statement. "...how willing to abandon being nice..."

If your wife is on affair # 3 in just about that many years then you need to take some substantial measures. None of them are nice. All are designed to protect your marriage which is not the same as not upsetting your wife.

My number one basic concept when it comes to marriage is this - If you want your marriage to change YOU need to change. Affair number three tells me there's a dynamic here that isn't working - and the only part you can change in that dynamic is yours. If you are unwilling to do so (and it's scary and difficult) then you become a threat to the marriage as well.

Nice has no place in intimate relationships. Calm - yes. Courteous - without fail. Respectful - absolutely. But nice? Nope - it's destructive and dangerous.

C

Stan -
Regarding LBss:

My wife read about the Love Busters (as defined in this site). Therefore, she calls a Love Buster anything I say that she does not like or agree with.

Uhhhh.... yeah.... that's what I thought. Have you read the book? Here's a quick down and dirty description.

Love Busters are NOT things that simply upset your spouse. If that were the case, honesty would be a love buster and it's not - in fact - quite the opposite.

Love Busters are habits that destroy love by destroying the basic foundation of the marriage. They fall into certain categories which are:

Demands - Insisting that you spouse do something for you or in a certain manner regardless of how s/he feels about it. (Telling someone that a particular behavior is not acceptable and expecting them not to do it is NOT a demand, it's veto power. Exerting control to ensure they not do it, however, is.)

Disrespect - negative opinions about your spouse, their activities, choices, priorities,education, intelligence, etc. Also, assuming you know what they are thinking, feeling, what motivates them, etc. You don't know what goes on inside someone else and to think you do is disrespectful of their dignity as a human being.

Angry Outbursts - losing your temper. Threatening. Punishing. Withdrawing in order to avoid hurting the other person is NOT an AO - slamming the door on the way out might be.

Dishonesty - withholding information about how you feel, what you like and don't like, your daily activities, your past, your plans for the future - anything that blocks a clear view into who you are and what you do.

Independent Behavior - hobbies, friends, tv, work,spending, an affair, etc. - anything you do that your spouse is not thrilled with OR that they are thrilled with but that causes detriment to the marriage.

Annoying Habits - leaving your shoes all over the house (guilty!), slurping your tea, leaving dirty clothes lying about, etc.

So I would guess that you are doing some of those, but I would also suspect that some of what she's calling a love buster is simply being honest. She might not like to hear how you feel about tbings, but that's not a love buster.


I think she needs more counseling than me, but has not shown much interest in pursuing that. She hates the idea of someone judging her.

If your marriage is in trouble, it's a couple problem. Counseling should never be about judging someone - although it certainly should discuss the ethics of causing harm to the marriage.

I guess we are following the so-called plan A,

Plan A is a strategy to END an affair. If it's over you need to be following the rules of Time, Protection, Honesty, and Care. And - most importantly you need to be living by the Policy of Joint Agreement.

1. Should we talk to a MC or coach?

A cautious yes. I have a list of questions you should ask before you hire someone - remind me and I will post the link for you.

She only wanted to talk to another woman who was having an affair. Otherwise, she is not interested. As i said------ we have kept this a secret!

She would be welcome to email me. I had the affair in my first marriage.

2. She avoids deep serious conversation, however, she talks more if the mood is joyful or erotic. She admits to have a wall that keeps her from talking to me in serious deep way. How can i overcome this?

You can't. She needs to decide that she wants to share and to be willing to take the risk of doing so. You can make that more likely to happen by being calm and supportive no matter what she tells you. You can also practice calm and respectful transparent honesty in your interactions with her.

C

Cerri:

My wife affirms she is not having any contact at all with OM. I tend to believe her-------------------- she seems sincere. We are not fighting and I try not to bring up the affair all the time, however, one is always full of questions. It is so hard to believe that the person one loved and trusted for a life time could do this. In a sense I am grieving the loss of the wife I knew that could be trusted 100% of the time.

Our talks have taken two different approaches.

One approach is called by my wife the Puritanical viewpoint where I expected my wife to be the 2nd coming of Mother Theresa. My wife says this is unrealistic because I knew quite well she had the potential to commit adultery and that I always liked that fantasy where she would talk about having sex with other men.

The other approach is a much more liberal view on sexual issues. In summary, she feels that to expect a nun for a wife is unrealistic. She says that she grew up in a home where adultery was very common therefore, the risk for her to be unfaithful was always high. The fact that 30 years went by before she slept with another man can be considered a victory----- I guess.

Whenever I look at the affair from a puritanical point of view and think of the of the wedding vows and the fact that I had been the only man who had intercourse with her I feel awful. However, if I look at the affair from a very liberal point of view and assume sex is nothing more than physiologic activity such as urinating I tend to feel less depressed.

I always knew my wife had curiosity, but I somehow felt she did not have the guts to get naked with another man. I thought our relationship was special because we thought sex was much more than just physiology. Of course, I was wrong with this one. I asked her why did you have to jump naked into bed? Why couldn’t she put the brakes on? She said that by them she was so intoxicated with the love and the OM that it was a no brainier. She did not think------------ she simply wanted the OM inside her. This is all strange to me because I have never lost my head like that. Well she lost her head over this OM------------- big time! This is so hard to believe or accept. However, I now have a better understanding thanks to forums like this one.

I have to assume we have completed Plan A, however, she still has some withdrawal.



1. What is the likelihood everything will fall apart?

2. What if she never comes out of withdrawal? For how long do I hold on?
I don’t want to be married to a woman with a divided heart.

3. What if she decides to have contact with the OM in 2-3 years when things have calmed down?

4. She prefers the VERY liberal approach to the affair as this causes less guilt. She still glorifies the OM despite his shortcomings as a father and husband. When will she see the light?

5. BTW, the OM preached to her on a daily basis for two years. This OM said the right words 100% of the time. I read many of his emails and he comes across as a manipulator. However wife disagrees.


Is that your web site on your signature?

BTW, I have given few LBs to my wife. I am not a controlling kind of guy. The one who runs the entire household is my wife.

<small>[ August 24, 2004, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley,

I think what you are hearing is the "fog" and her trying to justify why she hurt you so. She doesn't seem able to face that, but I think you should point out that her views do hurt you.

Right now if you decided to go pick up girls and have sex with them she would agree because it would ease her conscience. However I expect that at sometime she will start to realize the damage.

I will say that your fantasy with her, seems to have been a very damaging thing. I know it seemed harmless fun, but it is clearly the excuse she needed to do what she wanted. I also think that she does have some issue and they need to be addressed.

I really don't know what to say, but I fear she sees no HARM in what she has done. Has she expressed any remorse or is she still defending herself.

I trust you note the irony in her statements and the fact that for 30 years or close to that she indeed did keep her vows. I do think this is the fog of withdrawal, but I also think she needs some counseling with regard to her family of origin issues and how she views you and sex.

I think the part that is really inconsistent is that she did emotionally fall in love with him as well. Which by her own words is NOT consistent with the liberal point of view and surely not the puritanical point of view. She needs to address herself to this as well.

Hard going right now, but hopefully with time she will begin to exit withdrawal and see what she stands to lose. Hang in there, and you are right you no longer need plan A, but you do need to follow the 4 rules of marriage as well as the policies of radical honesty and Joint agreement.

Hang in there.

JL

Cerri,

Thank you for your help. I made a mistake and probably wasted some of your time, for which I am sorry. I still have trouble using my head properly with all this that is going on.
I have been in Plan B since the last week of July. Originally, we separated in November, and I found out about the affair in Feb. (although I knew that something was going on much sooner.)
To make matters worse, she is pregnant by OM.
I have made the choice to stand by her. But there would be a lot of repairing going on by both of us and with her for that to happen.

A couple of weeks after I went into Plan B, she did call and leave a voicemail saying "I know you don't want to talk to me, but I just wanted to say that I miss you, have been thinking about you and love you."
She was crying when she left that message. I did not respond. Haven't heard from her since.
I am going with my gut feel here and am going to say that I think she may have OM thinking that she is already divorced. I have saved some voicemails and emails from her if I choose to later send them to him as proof of what is really going on. But I'm not sure if that would really help me much at this time.

I want to thank you again for taking the time to post such thought out and articulate words of advice. Reading your advice to me, its like having someone pat me on the back and let me know that I'm doing the right thing. Because God knows, I question everyday if I'm handling things right or not.

JL:

Thank you for your remarks! Since I am not seeing a counselor and my ordeal is a secret this is the only outlet I have to spill my guts.

I have to give some credit to my wife. Immediately after D-day she dumped the OM and became VERY DEDICATED to me. Of course I was a mess who could not eat, sleep, or function very well. I managed to go to work every day and my secretary asked me on a daily basis why I looked so awful. In the aftermath she made love to me all the time with a lot of passion. She consoled me and told me she was sorry a 1000 times. I was very depressed and angry and as you know developed a severe case of sperm competition.

I discovered the affair after reading some emails. There was one where the wife said the traditional words as to how she waited all her life for a man like the OM and how happy she was that she had decided to sleep with him since she had not done this with anyone else but me. Of course there were the required soul mate statements and so forth.

I asked her if she was in love with the guy and she replied that she had no clue why she expressed love for the OM because she loved me. She looked really confused and then said that perhaps she said those words to justify the sex. I bought this explanation for a few days and then I realized that there is no way anyone could turn a LOVE switch on and off just like that. Weeks later she admitted that perhaps she really meant every word she wrote, but that now she did not feel that way. She then admitted she loved me, but also had feelings for the OM. I was puzzled as I could not understand how anyone could have a divided heart. Of course now I know she felt lust for the OM and deep long term love for me.

Then gradually as she realized I was not going to divorce her she fell into withdrawal and started to defend her actions and to become very angry if I said a negative remark about OM (at the onset she tolerated any negative remark I said). I must said she is terrified of the idea of divorce.

She thinks that perhaps the fantasy played a role in her action, but also claimed she felt distressed at the fact that we did not have little kids in the house anymore and our grown kids were having relationship problems. She also stated that my oldest daughter teased her because she only had one sex partner all her life. All these things got into her head at the time the OM appeared. In addition at age 49 she was now a much more liberal woman who saw the affair as a way to become more assertive. The OM was a master at lifting her spirits. BTW, the OM wrote many times about the fact that my wife never said a negative remark about me. The OM thought that this was a sign of being classy. The OM also told her over and over again about how much dignity my wife had shown during the affair with him. Dignity was one of his favorite words.

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

If you could ask...

I'm going to get specific, but hopefully my end question will not be too specific.

My H's affair was pretty classic. Never told me there was a problem, went away for job, had friend (that I knew) also unhappy in marriage, they talk, they fall in "crush", have a relationship for a few weeks, it ends, he comes home, kisses me different, I ask, he confesses. He wants divorce. We talk about it, he says he wants to work on it. Our version of working on it was just giving it time. We did nothing to actively try to improve our marriage. He never completely cut of contact with her. Fast forward one year. He tells me it hasn't worked, wants a divorce. Says he has always had doubts and needs to be alone for awhile. Very good revisionist, he is! He does admit, though, that when it was good, it was VERY good. I suggest a year-long separation instead. He agrees. I initially agree that we should date others (I truly did not know better, thought it was a good idea). I move quite far away. Our agreement (just this june)is that we talk via phone once per week, emails unlimited, and visit every other month. So far we've kept on track.

I decide, after finding this site and reading LOTS of stuff that I will not date. I ask him to do the same. He will not agree to it at this time. I believe that he has just begun dating someone. He is living and loving the single life right now.

So..well, I guess I can't be general..lol. What is appropriate here--plan a type stuff or plan b type stuff? Something modified? I admit that I have a LOT of changes that I need to make which I have indeed been making.

On the one hand you suggest that no contact with my spouse might be best. On the other hand you suggest that one wants to deepen feelings of attachment. The one thing my spouse still needs from me right now and seeks out is my support. His job is tough..he calls me to talk about it. His fish died, he calls me to talk about it. Problems with his family, he calls me to talk about it. This support is something I enjoy giving to him. If I plan B, I can no longer offer this support. I believe the "out of sight out of mind" factor will kick in even further, enabling his single life style. I do not know if this is good or bad. On the one hand, I am not deepening his feelings of attachment...but on the other, if I withdraw that one thing he needs (that I do not believe he can get from a new dating partner), maybe that is what we need right now?

I would love nothing more than some type of counseling with Harleys on this, but $$ is definitely a factor here. It's not a matter of giving something up..there's nothing to give.

So in the brief view I've given you, how does one know when no contact will be harmful or beneficial?

Cerri,

Affairs appear to span degrees of entanglement from a ONS to a long true-love relationship. I suppose they could be graphed as a typical bell curve with some variable such as degree of apparent mutual commitment on the ordinate and incidence (number of occurrences) on the abscissa.

Of course, there will be outliers. I read that serial cheaters (the no-commitment end of the graph) are often lost causes. They are just too flawed and need to do a lot of internal work they rarely accomplish. If this is the situation, the BS should cut their losses. On the other hand, a drunken mistake with a ONS may be relatively easy to work though if the WS is truly sorry and understands the pain they have caused.

But what should the BS do when dealing with a long-term love affair (has tested commitments)? If the affair has lasted a decade, say, and survived all obstacles thrown in its path (such as previous exposure years ago) should the WS be treated as a type of serial cheater? Is the prognosis for building a fulfilling M with a person who was in such a long-term entangled affair as unlikely as with a serial cheater?

Some BS’s may even feel as if they are the ogre in this fairytale by standing in the way of true love and the compassionate thing to do is to just get out of the way. Besides, who wants to be married to someone who is deeply attached to someone else, and has been for many years?

I suppose the question can be boiled down to: Are there any hallmarks of an affair, or of the affairees, the BS should consider when deciding if the marriage can be rebuilt?

Corollary Question 1: Are there any studies, or statistics, on which marriages tend to be recoverable and which are not (such as in the serial philanderer case?)

Corollary Question 2: Is it your observation, as is stated in Torn Asunder, it can take as long as the affair lasted for the BS and the marriage to recover? If the affair lasted ten years, a dedicated ten-year recovery effort does not sound realistic or even humanly possible.

Thanx,

T

Thos: Does his wife know? If not, tell her.

Maddyk:

I am not in a position to give advice, however, I can tell you about personal experiences and other observations.

One day my oldest son (29) decided he was not in love with his wife of 5 years and decided to separate. My son wanted to play the field and felt it was inappropriate to have an affair. He told me he cannot be a two-timer, but he wanted to date other woman. At least he was honest. Against my wishes he separated and dated. His wife was crushed, but they kept in contact. Eventually his wife dated a man and they had a three-month fling. Anyway, one day a light bulb turned on inside my son’s head and he realized he always loved his wife. He tried to get back together with his wife, but by them it was too late. The wife didn’t want him anymore and now my son is suffering the loss and the divorce is approaching.

What I am trying to say is that couples go thru peaks and valleys all the time and quite often think they are not in love when they are in a valley. I know my wife and I have experienced those peaks and valleys in our 30 plus year marriage.

Hang in there-------- one of these days he may realize he loves you dearly.

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley, isn't that funny...my husband is 29 and we were married in 1999--five years this past May. Five years seems to be a sticking point.

And honestly, I think this is a bit of an "MLC" which can occur at any time. Whether or not we will get through it is of question..but...

Cerri:

"She only wanted to talk to another woman who was having an affair. Otherwise, she is not interested. As I said------ we have kept this a secret!

She would be welcome to emailed me. I had the affair in my first marriage."

Is your email published? I would love it if you could talk to my wife. BTW, I have email my wife all the answers that you have given me.

She is still defensive and claims the affair changed her into a very strong assertive woman (he OM spent two years building up her ego). Not sure why she did not feel that way before because I am the kind of husband who gives all the power to the wife. She keeps track all of the money, pays all the bills, has the one and only check book, makes all decisions regarding what to buy, whom to contract for house work, where kids go to school, ect. She makes most of the plans for vacations and chooses where we stay , ect. I only give her my opinion and she is basically in charge of everything. She is a homemaker and never had to work and from the onset we agreed that she would be the boss around the house.

The fact that she never had to work may have contributed to some feelings of low self-esteem. She also has less education than me and that has always bothered her. I treat her as my equal and find her to be very intelligent, however, she always saw me as the greater part of the marriage whereas she saw herself as less. The origin of this view may have to do with the fact that she was only 13-14 when I met her and I was a full-grown man at 17 (he, he, yeah right). What I am trying to say is that for her a17 year old was an older person whom she could look up to.

Since we met so young we never had courtship or dating as adults. This could be a factor as to why she enjoyed so much the one-year courtship with the OM before the affair became physical. She admitted to me she really enjoyed the early part of the affair and only became consumed with guilt when it got very physical towards the end.



1. Where can I get a hold of your email?
2. Is there hope? My feeling is that we are going to make it, but who knows, at this point I trust no one.
3. Should I keep saying that I love her? At this point I am overflowing with love for her and cannot keep my hands of her------- it is hard! However, I manage to keep a distance so I don’t annoy her with excessive attention.


<small>[ August 25, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ya think that might have influenced her a bit? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it might some. First H was abusive to MIL, don't know about WW. Second H wasn't abusive, just a fairly substantial loser.

I have read that a woman who doesn't have a good relationship with her F, will often seek out a father in a partner, and then find a "love." I definitely filled the F role (not intentionally, just did) for her. How much stock do you put in this statement?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So what happened after her first affair? How did you find out and what did you do? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I found out by happenstance. Ran across a text message between the two. I had noticed that WW had been really distant for most of the first year of M, but couldn't figure out why. I confronted, she admitted after a few days. I happened to find MB, (but not the forum). We did the EN questionaire. We did NOT pursue counseling, nor did we ever pick up the EN stuff again. It seemed to be "OK." Then the cycle of being distant began again in 6/03, which led to seperation in 1/04. I was too d*** naive to see the exact same signs again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want your marriage to change YOU need to change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I have.... There are a few things that I struggle with, though. She may never even see the changes. I have been in plan B for close to 5 months. I haven't heard a word from WW. I'm also concerned about what to do if she does happen to come back. (Although, I suppose I shouldn't really worry about that until I get there.) I'm in a very strange limbo of trying to figure out who she is without her involved at all. That's not easy....

Ethan

Cerri, Ifeel funny calling you that..but...in your opinion, Is it possible to have a good marriage with OC involved...And possible OW involved as well! How can we work this out to where OC can be involved in H life without OW involved.

This OW is very visious..She is determined to destroy our marriage and she will go to any lengths to do it...She refuses to go thru a third party or even a lawyer! She says if she needs something she will call the H and no-one else!

My H is still comitted to working on our M, but this is all a agame to her! Any insight you can give will be greatly apreciated! thanks Cerri!

Cerri, et al:

This is off topic, but my wife wanted me to post this info. I played the James Bond spy game and discovered my wife’s affair. I tapped the phones and used key logger on the computer to learn the password to her email.

My wife now seems to be quite truthful, but I as you can all guess I now trust no one. So it was hard to give up the phone tap which she found as well as snooping around the computer. I recently went on line with one of the OM’s many handles to see if my wife would IM. She didn’t and it made me feel good, however, she has discovered my game. I also pretended I received a phone call from a stranger warning me about my wife. I told her about it to see if I could trick her into talking. Well------- you guessed it! She knew I was lying right away and now she is a little upset with my distrust. I told her it was hard to trust her and she understood.

What do you all think about the James Bond act?

Cerri's web site is saveyourmarriagecentral.com. (Hope you don't mind me sharing your secret).