For the past two years, my wife has been cheating on me - on and off - with two men.

One guy was local and the other was an online affair. The local guy was a short fling but the online guy has been in the picture for around two years.

After finding this out, I asked her to stop communicating with both men. She agreed and said she had already done that. I skipped work and went on vacation with her and told her that I could forgive her and start trying to pay more attention to her. But the suspicious emails and phone calls persisted so I knew she was keeping her options open in the event we divorced.

Last night I told her to call one of the men and tell him, once and for all, that it was over. I listened to their phone conversation. She was very gentle in her wording and her lover agreed not to contact her anymore but said that if we got divorced, he would always be there. My wife accepted that.

I told her that I still had no closure - that she had not proven to me that it was over. All she showed me was that it's up to me to win her back and if I don't, this guy will always be there for her.

I still love my wife. But I don't think she is putting up a sufficient effort that she wants me and me only. She keeps telling me that she is clinically depressed about all that has happened (which is probably true as she tried to commit herself the other day) and to ride out the storm so that she can take one step at a time.

Based on this, can anybody provide me with any advice? I am new to this forum and don't know any of your abbreviations yet.

Charlie - you've come to the right place!

Firstly, I would advise that you read all the info - concepts, Q & As etc that Steve Harley has written elsewhere on this site. Herley's ideas are where everyone on these boards is coming from. You need to know about Plan A. You need to understand where your wife is in her "thinking".

::::All she showed me was that it's up to me to win her back ... ::::
Well, yes, I'm afraid that she's right (although probably for all the wrong reasons)- you will have to show her what she means to you, meet all her emotional needs, win her back. That's pretty much Plan A and its hard going, but if you really want her, then it's a good bet to work. Your wife is probably in full addiction mode and some of her actions are going to be the most selfish, cruel and painful that you have ever had to endure, but she will come out of it. You have got to be her safety net, so that she can see who is there for her when she falls.

:::: ...and if I don't, this guy will always be there for her.:::::

Ah! And that one is covered too! It's all to do with No Contact. If your Marriage is going to continue, it's the one absolute that your wife will have to agree to. If not, there's always Plan B.

How long have you known about all this? You sound like a really cool guy, very together. Your wife sounds like she is in real trouble, depression is a common consequence of an infidel's actions, the shame and the guilt can get too much for them. Can you get some counselling? My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Marriage Counselling is preferable, because the two of you are in this and it would do you both good to hear each other. Independant Counselling is another option and perhaps this is what your wife needs for a while, only you two can decide.

You are in for a rough ride my friend, but we can help you here. Read all the main board stuff and keep posting. There are some awesome people here who can really help. Also, organise yourself a signature - it's helpful to everyone else here to know a bit about dates, ages etc.

Hope to talk to you again soon.

Lum

Lum57,

Thanks for the support. I have read Plan A and quite a few of the posts at this message board.

My wife agreed not to contact OM and she has shown me some positive signs. I was just wondering if I was being too hard on her for thinking she was leaving a door open. (OM told her that if things don't work out, and we get divorced, she can always call him... and my wife agreed to this. I listened on another line as they were talking and almost barfed. I could picture her starry eyes as she was talking to this puke that she met on Everquest.)

Judging from what I'm reading, I guess I'm just supposed to sit back, shower her with love and hope for the best rather than worry about it? Don't bring up relationship talk at the start?

As for your other questions, I have known of MB for a long time but never really looked into it. I had a teacher in high school who was into this (I am 34 now.)

We are definitely both interested in MC. However, after D-day I was really stressed and ended up getting fired from my job and my wife was the stay at home mother so I am not sure how I am going to pay for MC.

Can't afford anti-depressants without a job either (just fired Thursday.) I'm kinda bad off right now. Went to church yesterday and heard a really good sermon. I just emailed the pastor and asked him about baptism. I need all the help I can get to make it through this.

Of course it doesn't help that I live in Central Florida (smack dab in the swath of Hurricane Charley - which added yet more stress BUT I AM GOING TO MAKE IT THROUGH THIS.)

Are there any recommendations for extended family? My parents and brother know about these PAs and now they are very angry with my WW. I have told my parents why I want to stay with my wife but they are not being supportive and I'm stuck as to what to do.

Further advise is appreciated.

Charlie,
I have a goodfriend named Charlie. Hope it's not you.

Lum said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your wife sounds like she is in real trouble, depression is a common consequence of an infidel's actions, the shame and the guilt can get too much for them </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with a minor change. Infidelity and its discovery does cause depression. It causes depression in the BS where non may have existed.

IMHO and some experts, it may be the other way around for your W. What I mean is if she was like most WS, especially wivws, she was depressed first. The affair acts as a non medical anti depressant. All the feelings of "love" make them feel better about themselves (at our expense).

So you may see a cycle. Think back to before the affair statrted. Look for signs of depression. While the A was ongoing the signs of depression may have gone away. I say may bc some wives feel guilty so the depression doesn't go away but it does minimize. She felt good about herself. If you are able to get her into NC the depression will come back. It'll be like she hasn't taking her meds.

Good luck,

Mac

quoted by charlie"

(OM told her that if things don't work out, and we get divorced, she can always call him... and my wife agreed to this.

Charlie,,,
It is important that you ask yourself this:
If I divorce my wife who will she run to?

It is naive for you to reflect and expect that she would not run to the closest person to her.

I would say this guy is second to you right now. If you divorce her he more than likely will be first. I am sorry but that is more than likely the way it would be for your wife and my wife as well.
Dont worry if he will be there after she is divorced,,, would you really care if he was?

Divorce means done!

The important thing is that your marriage does not allow him to be there,, you think he will wait in the wings for your wife? Heck no.
Work more towards assuring there is no contact during the marriage.
I mean I really do not care who the hell my wife is with if we are divorced,, and I am pretty sure it would be her previous OM.

Your willing to forgive her, thats all that matters concentrate on the marriage and not the what ifs?
My wife did not yell at OM when I listened to her no contact phone call... she did tell him she would not see or talk to him anymore. OM replied by saying "I understand but I will allways be there if you need me" my wife said to him "right now I need my family"
Your wife made the call,,, she let you listen,,, that is a great sign that she knows whats more important to her.
Think about it,,,, is there really any programmed way for all no contact conversations to be carried out,, much less the resonse from the OP.

You are doing great,, and I understand you need to see your wife degrade this OM to assure you of her commitment to you. With time your wife will eventually degrade this man. It just takes the rebuilding and healing for her to look back and hate all of the bad things in her life.

Dear Charlie,
Sounds like you have received a lot of good advice. I do agree with Eric about focusing on the "here and now", not on the "what ifs". You seem to understand that you have a difficult road ahead and "need all the help I can get", so spare yourself the wasted energy of worrying about things over which you have NO CONTROL. Whatever the OM said was one of those things!
It is really unfortunate about your job and financial difficulties on top of everything. Are there any community or hospital based programs that you could access for free ? Your church of course is another good support system. It is also sad that your family is so unsupportive of your decisions, because they are YOUR decisions. Try not to let that disappointment interfere with what you believe is right for you and your wife. Parents (I have grown/married kids), always feel terrible when their kids are hurt. Want to tear the face off the offending party, but hopefully in time they can see and understand your choices and support them, regardless of their personal preferences. They may never feel the same about your wife, but hey, you have no control over that either. At least if they are supportive of you and your choices, can be civil to her etc., that may be as good as it gets (at least for the near future).
Try also to remember that NO ONE can meet ALL of another's emotional needs.Don't set yourself up for feeling like you failed. You can only do your best and try to negotiate what works for the both of you. Your wife sounds as though she has already taken some good steps in trying to get help, and I have to agree with CWmac that the A may have been a symptom of other deeper problems. Time and therapy will hopefully help here. You are BOTH going to have to take a long, hard look at yourselves, and try to repair your marriage (if that is what you have both chosen to do). Trust takes a long time to evolve after serious hurt, and that's another thing that neither of you can force.
Perhaps you have heard of the Serenity Prayer ?

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and, the wisdom to know the difference".
This has been a great comfort to me, I hope it fits for you.
Wishing you peace, WA

I appreciate all the kind words and yes, we have identified what led to the A.

My wife almost died at the birth of our child four years ago. She went into post partum depression and never went to counseling to address that. It was the happiest time of my life and I didn't know how to help her or why she initially got depressed.

Then she lost her job due to her stress and poor physical health. I subsequently lost a job as well. We went into deep financial debt... and my step daughter's father has been manipulative in trying to get my step daughter to hate me.

I hated the house we were living in at the time because it was one that my wife purchased with her ex-husband and because my wife was repeated beaten in this house by her ex-husband.

I ended up becoming very reclusive and started playing video games WAY too much. My wife then started playing games too and this is where she met the first OM.

All while this was happening, I was a child abuse investigator... a VERY stressful job in itself and I got progressively more reclusive.

We ended up selling the house - which was good for me but my wife saw it as another terrible loss. In her weakened state, she had another PA.

In retrospect, we went through hell. If I had been paying ANY attention to her I would have noticed all of the long distant phone calls she was making. I missed so many things... I caused a bad marriage but I don't blame myself for what she did. I can only focus on rebuilding now.

I really do appreciate the feedback you all are giving me. Thanks again.

My wife never stopped being depressed - she has said she felt bad all while the A was taking place. She has been on anti-depressants for around two years now.

I hope everything keeps moving forward and I will document the progress here as my own personal journal.

Honey, if you read this thread... I love you and will forever, regardless of what happens.

Dear Charlie, I have read your very sad story and my heart goes out to you both. Just one more quick thought, if I may !? All anti-depressants are not alike. There are a lots of newer better ones on the market than 2 years ago. If the depression is due to a chemical imbalance , her doctor can, if he thinks it's in her best interests, make adjustments/changes there. Most importantly, though, the terrible traumas she has been through will likely need psychological support. The meds alone can't always do the trick. It's rather like needing two wheels on a bicycle ! You sound like such a loving man...all prayers and good wishes for your joint recoveries.
WA

Yea, my wife has tried a variety of anti-depressants and is about to change once more because her Effexor isn't working either.

She has been to alot of counseling in reference to prior physical abuse and her childhood - which was bad too (molestation/parental drug use/neglect). Her most recent counseling sessions were a few months ago. The counselor asked her if other men found her attractive and she said yes and then the counselor said the problem in our marriage was me and she validated the PA.

What a joke.

I had two recent IC sessions via work but have lost employment so I can't do that anymore.

The pastor I previously mentioned emailed me back today and offered assistance through his church so I will probably take him up on that.

Dear Charlie,
Seems like you are doing everything right ! I was rather shocked to hear about that counsellor your wife had...Boy !!?? I guess we have to accept that there are incompetant people out there in all fields of endeavour. The other possibilty is, that your wife took things out of context. That isn't hard to do when you are in a highly emotional state. Anyway don't give up on the idea, there are some amazing people out there. Glad you pastor is there for you. Maybe he can talk to your wife too ?? Did you check your hospitals, community support programs and the like ? It's not as personal as the one on one with a really good therapist ,but it might help in the interim. For the type of problems that you described that your wife has been through , there is seldom a "brief therapy" fix. It can take a very long time. I was blessed with the goodness and generosity of a psychologist who took me on "pro bono". Some will do that in special cases. Do try to see what is available for you both. Keep faith, WA

<small>[ August 23, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Warm ashes ]</small>

Yea, we checked community programs. This past weekend, my wife tried to commit herself at a local hospital (depression) but the doctors and therapists refused to Baker Act her.

A wide variety of services were offered that we will look into.

First up, is drug rehab. She uses marijuana chronically to self medicate for depression. Hopefully I will have a job soon so the other stuff will get paid with medical insurance.

Tough times but at least my wife is working with me as opposed to other posts I have read.

Still holding my head up high.

Charlie,

You are aware that MJ like alcohol leads to depression and sure makes it worse. IF she can get off of that then maybe her medications would work. If she is using AND taking anti-D's it is very likely that the anti-d's won't work. You need to talk to a doc about this.

Changing anti-d's while she is using is unlikely to help her. The MJ needs to go. NOW.

God Bless,

JL

It's our top priority now but insurance is in doubt now that I am unemployed.

Dear Charlie,
Just Learning is so right about the MJ !! You know what you have to do and it's great that your W is working with you.
Sometimes...."it is darkest just before the dawn "
Don't stop trying unless you truly believe there is absolutely nothing left to fight for !! Best of good fortune to you both ! WA

Hi Charlie

I haven't been able to access JFO for a couple of days, so i was pleased this morning to see that you have been getting some great support and advice. Sure, there are some serious negatives around you at the moment, but the positives are coming thick and fast! Looking at your situation from a distance, it strikes me that your wife's A's were a cry for help resulting in a massive wake-up call for the both of you.

Don't waste too much time worrying about OM. What counts is you two. Sure, he's there - at the moment - I agree with eric, he won't wait for her, but he's a slime-ball who will use her if she gets desperate. Your job is to prevent her getting desperate, which is easy to say, but hard to do.

I was sorry that your family are not helping much at the moment, though they probably have you at heart. I was terribly lucky with my family: my sister and my niece wanted to rip my FWH's head off, but they said that it came down to whatever I wanted and they would support whatever decision I made. It led to some very surreal occasions when everyone was terribly happy to see everyone else and an onlooker would NEVER have guessed what had happened <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> On the other hand, my FWH's family did everything they could to split us up, including involving my girls - for which I will never forgive them. (I'm entitled to not forgive someone after all this crap surely? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) You need your family behind you right now, and will continue to do so, so sit them down and explain your decision and ask for their support. One great thing to come of all my troubles was the reconnection I found with my family and friends. It's something I can truly thank God for. I hope you find the same.

I agree also with the advice about the 'what ifs'. Forget them. Don't waste your energy on it - you'll need it all for the 'What is', good or bad.

As for your query about no relationship talk at the start, well I would talk, talk and talk some more. You will have to tread carefully though. Concentrate on the good things and bear in mind the principles of negotiation - no disrespect, angry outbursts or demands.

Meanwhile, I hope the other Charley didn't do any harm to you. In some ways I wish a hurricane had whisked though here and flattened my house - I wouldn't have to worry about the demons that turned my home into a house - and it would have given me something else to think about. (Sorry, touch of bitterness coming through there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

Any news of another job? What would be your chances of changing the nature of your job? What you do for a living must be very stressful indeed.

I hope the pastor helps. Let us know how it goes.

Lum

At this very moment, my wife is meeting with her psychiatrist (spelling?!) about options. She wants to be admitted to a local hospital for a few days to help relieve stress and get a head start on getting off of marijuana.

Hope my insurance (what's left of it) will cover that.

As for my job search, it's touch and go. Given the fact that I was basically fired, it's going to be rough to remain a social worker. I have one prospect that is promising but have already been turned down for two other social work positions.

A recruiter nabbed my resume off Monster.com recently and wants me to come in for an interview to sell ads in our local phone book. Big change of careers there! I suppose I will have to take that if nothing else pans out but to be honest, sales was never my strong point.

My family is still being a pain in the [censored]. I am always the one who has to call them when something like this happens. Wish they would make the first move for once.

Thanks again for the support - y'all are the best.

Update:

Things are not going so well.

Hurricane Charley hit first and then Hurricane Frances slammed us too. Our house is leaking, the dock fell apart any my canoe snapped in half. We have been cooped up in the house bored alot as a result, which resulted in several arguements. We watched a matinee today (Wicker Park is a movie about sexual deceit that I would not recommend for anybody in this forum.) Neither one of us are employed yet and money is getting thin. My WW has a few cavities but we have no dental insurance. I have nobody I feel comfortable talking to about my feelings but my WW does and she spends alot of time away from home talking about all of our problems while I sit home with the children. My step daughter was recently diagnosed with borderline behavioral disorder. My WW is regularly talking about divorce. I can't even afford MC really and church was closed today due to the hurricane. My WW quit smoking pot and withdrawls are making her angry all the time (as is the stress)... and if that were not enough, my WW says she wants to separate because she needs time on her own. She says this often. She wants both kids with her. We don't have enough money for two homes so I will probably have to move in with my parents if we separate and my parents live two hours away so I won't see the children often. Also, if I move in with my parents, I will have to find work and set up a life there, meaning I will be a distant parent.

If anybody out there could say some prayers for us, I would greatly appreciate it.

I love my WW so very much yet she keeps pushing me... blaming me for emotionally neglecting her still... saying we can't communicate effectively (I'm a quiet person by nature and she is outgoing)... she keeps saying I was irresponsible for losing my job (D-Day stressed me so hard that it affected my ability to work.)

I can't keep myself from asking God "Why me" all the time... I'm stuck in a rut.

Things looked good in the first month but everything seems to have gone downhill since my last post.

Babe, if you read this.... I love you and want to grow old with you.... things will get better.

Please God, help me get through this.

Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

We talked a long time tonight.

I can't sleep. It's 4 a.m.

She still loves OM and resents me for taking away her best friend. She reminded me that she fell out of love with me but did say there was some hope for us although it was like pulling teeth to get her to say something positive about me rather than to just keep blaming me for the two years that I neglected her. In her pain she showed me two chalices that OM gave her for Xmas this past year that are proudly displayed on our mantle above the TV. She told me the silk pajamas she wore to bed the other night were another gift from OM. God that hurt. I feel like the doormat people keep describing here.

We begin MC tommorrow.

She told me she has not contacted OM out of state and I have no evidence that she has but I can plainly see that she is angry, at me, for actively fighting for our marriage.

Her anger is a red flag that she has contacted him but I have nothing real to base that on so all I can do is continue with plan A. Recovery seems miles away.

Ever since D-day, I have had primal fear of losing her and have been needing sex alot. She says that in itself scares her because for two years I didn't show much affection and now I'm some kind of animal. Her affair was much more about emotional attachment, not the physical sex, which part of me understands. The other part of me is terribly confused.

She says the A hurt her more than it did me - that guilt has worn her down and that she doesn't want to hurt me further in the event that I emotionally neglect her again - I cannot fathom this. Her words about OM tonight like knives in my back.

I feel like the howling wind outside - remnants of Hurricane Frances.

Started Zoloft yesterday. Feels like my younger years when I experimented with speed.

Had to reschedule MC due to the hurricane. It's reset for tommorrow afternoon.

It's kind of expenisive and I don't know how long we can afford to go if employment isn't found soon.

Charlie,
where you do you live in FL? I'm looking for people now and may be able to help you with a job. e-mail me coach3530@yahoo.com