Hi there,<P>Suse and I have been thinking about you this week. Been wondering how you've done. I can imagine you had some difficult moments during the holidays. But, we hope you can thru with a few good experiences. <P>The thread that you and Lone Star had going really stuck in my sub-conscious. I think I've been mulling it around since then. Also went back and read all your recent posts. I really, really, REALLY want to ask you a favor...<P>Do you do New Year's resolutions? Could you make one for this year to forgive yourself?<P>Sure, we've never met. We have no context of a relationship outside of this Forum. Of course, you owe me nothing. But, please consider it.<P>The potential you have as a wonderful, bright, loving, considerate, brilliant woman justs screams out of you. That's a gift. It's a gift you can give to someone and they'll give you back in return. A good and worthy person will, that is.<P>You've got some healing to do. That's totally understandable given what you've experienced this last year. Go easy on yourself. Write a happy ending to that Tori Amos song. <P>Sure dating is pretty stupid. So, don't date. Just get more involved in some enjoyable groups for awhile. And yes, there ARE guys out there who could actually conceive of HAVING a friendship with you that isn't just preliminary to getting in your pants.<P>No good man would want me? Now THAT is hard to believe. Nope, it's not about whether the man thinks you're desireable or not. It's whether you do yourself. That Tori Amos line about "nothing I do is good enough for you"... are you really asking it of yourself?<P>Go easy, girl. Sure, go ahead and grieve for what's past. But, not too long. It'd be such a shame not to share who you are. It's a risk, admittedly. You could get hurt again. On the other hand, you might find joy.<P>Whaddya think?<P>take care,<P>Dmac <P>

Hiya Dunc:<P>Sorry to jump in on your thread, but I gotta say, I agree with it 100%. Hope you and Suse had a really Merry Christmas.

Duncan Mac and Suse,<BR>Your post truly, truly touched me. I'm just bawling my eyes out right now. I'm so, well, flattered, and honored, really, that you two have obviously spent some time trying to figure out how to help me. <P>The forgiveness part seems to be getting a little easier every day. I'm doing what they say "fake it till you make it", by continuing my studies, taking a trip to Europe with my girlfriends, going to X-mas parties. Two of my best girlfriends know what I did, and they are still friends with me. That has helped. Believe me, I was scared that they wouldn't want to associate with me anymore either. <P>I am simply paralyzed by fear. I can't even begin to imagine trusting a man with my feelings. When strangers (men and women) ask me about why I was divorced I find myself "glossing over" and telling little lies. Yuck. I hate it. Even if I do say something vague like "We both hurt each other and my H decided he didn't want to try anymore". Even that sounds like a lie to me. What I WANT to say is "I cheated on him and he couldn't forgive me", but then I'd have to leave and maybe never talk to those people again, so I just keep up the 'ol BS story. Of course, that doesn't make me feel any better about myself either, that I have to continue to put up this front about my life to people, strangers or otherwise.<P>I told a friend last night that I'd rather put a gun to my head than be divorced three times. I truly would. So my logic goes, "I don't want to be married again, because I don't ever want a divorce, and I don't believe in sex without love and commitment, so I won't ever have sex again. And dating leads to love, and love leads to either rejection or marriage (then rejection), so I just won't date either." It's just all too complicated. <P>I am so,so very thankful for your words of encouragement. I've rewarded your effort by being argumentative (no,no,no, nobody will want me). It's true. Only I can really bring myself out of this. My friends have implored me to go easier on myself too, and I'm sure they are frustrated that I haven't gotten over this sooner. My student insurance doesn't pay for psychotherapy, but even if it did, they wouldn't tell me anything different than what you folks have told me many times over. The fact remains that I'm absolutely f**king terrified. If I wanted to get over this, if I wanted to be hopeful, I would just do it. But I don't want to be hopeful, I want to be SAFE. As long as I continue to beat myself up over this, then I am SAFE from ever being hurt, judged, and betrayed by another man I put my trust in. <P>I'm having a huge conflict right now. On one hand, I want very much to be able to be completely honest with anybody I'm close to (male or female). On the other hand, I feel like I've done my time. I don't want this thing hanging over my head the rest of my life, ready for a potential partner to bash me with at their convenience. I avoid the mental conflict by not getting close. Harley recommends being completely honest about your past weaknesses. To what end? If we are all responsible for our own actions (and nobody else), why should I expect a future partner to "help" me with this. To me ,it appears to have more potential for harm than good. Ok, some people might say that it is unfair for me to keep this information from a potential partner because they need to know that I'm not trustworthy, or that I'm weak, in that area. Part of me beleives that too (hence, the conflict). But again, this opens me up for judgement for the rest of my life? From someone I've never hurt? And what exactly are they supposed to do with this information? Be my babysitter? Or just dump me. Great. Either option pretty much sucks. Ok, I can hear the chorus now "you should have thought of that before". If that really is how things should be, then I'll just kill myself now rather than be subjected to this the rest of my life. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 27, 1999).]

The Student,<P>It seems to me that you may be safe from another man if you continue this approach, but you won't be safe from yourself. Another man may come along sometime, but you must deal with yourself everyday. So it seems to me your actions to be safe, are not really that safe at all. You are hurting yourself now, probably more than a man in your life could.<P>Student, as I said to you on another post, your only real mistake was not realizing that your passion for your chosen profession was more important to you than being married while in college. You are not unique in any way from this stand point. Please step back and realize that the correct answer to your friends is simply "I got married too soon".<P>After you graduate and have come to realize that you can function well without a spouse, you will undoubtably meet someone. This man will see a well educated, bright, and self-sufficient woman. She will also be a very experienced woman . You now have much more knowledge about the dynamics of romance and marriage than most people. This is a good thing not a bad thing. It is only a bad thing if you did not learn anything from your experiences.<P>TS: Your marital experiences should be used by you to your advantage not your disadvantage. You seem to be only taking the negative from this not the positive. You have done your penance (sp?) for this and you have learned. Now it is time to grow not shrink. You are diminishing yourself by hiding part of your personality as a result of your experiences. <P>Please let up on yourself. Get your education finished (it is important to you and therefore to anyone you meet in the future), enjoy yourself with other people, and don't get married until you have been out in the world and worked at your chosen profession for awhile. Then when you run into someone, you will have finished most of the metamorphysis (sp again) that all people go through when they go to college. You will have all the tools necessary to make a very successful marriage and raise a successful family if that is your desire.<P>Just don't worry about the future, please. Just work, play and grow. Things will turn out fine for you if you do these things.<P>God Bless and Happy Holidays,<P>JL

*whew!*<P>Ummm...did you breathe at all when you wrote this? <P>I have this mental image of allllll this stuff streaming out of you in one continuous flow! GAwwwwwd, girl. <P>Okay, okay, so I'm teasing you. I know your feelings, concerns, worries, and fears are VERY real. The question is... are they valid?<P>Do you really think no one would care for you if they knew you carried such an EVIL dark secret? Ummmmm...again. I really think you're going to hard on yourself.<P>Here: my wife is a betrayer. You know her. Suse, remember? She's a heck of a lotta fun to be with. She's a wonderful mom. She's very bright, considerate, et cetera et cetera et cetera. But...but...but....she's an INFIDEL!!!!<P>Do I give a rat's derriere? Ummmm...nope! Oh, btw...before you get any further about putting ME up on any kind of pedestal....PSSSSSST! I'm an infidel too!<P>Geez, girl. We made mistakes. All three of us. We're not bad people!<P>Let me ask you a basic question: do you know why your affair happened? Wanna talk about it? Gently, I just have to suggest, you've got to get right with it.<P>You have a buncho good people here who will help. I will, Suse will, Lone Star will. Others too. So, work with us on it.<P>No, we're not professional counsellors. But, we've got good heads on our shoulders and lots of life experience. I think we can help. And, if even a little, I'll feel like I did something good in this world.<P>So, howzabout it?<P>DMac

Hey there to Lone Star!<P>Howzit goin', Cowboy Dan? Thanks for your well-wishes of a post or two above. We're having a really nice Xmas. Just the two of us and the boys. The house looks like a tornado hit it. Toys, paper, junk alllll over. But, I almost don't care. And, I KNOW Suse doesn't. Don't have to work all week, I love it!<P>Oh, btw...apologies! I meant to send you an e-card for Xmas and didn't. I feel like a dork! I'll write you later today or tomorrow am.<P>Best,<P>Dunc

The Student:<P>Ditto, everything said above! I can't improve on it, so I'll just weasel in and attach my stamp of approval to it. THINK about it. I'm sure you'll see that your present approach is doing you more harm than good. Just remember, there are a bunch of people who've been married and divorced more than three times. <P>'Tis better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.<P>-------------<P>Dunc:<P>Just a quick note -- if you email me, I've got a new address. Getting rid of AOL finally. Sick of paying the $22.00 a month for slow service. Send all email to:<P>dannop23@hotmail.com.<P>Glad your Xmas went well. Wish I had this week off too! Ah well, mebbe next year! <P>(Howdy, Suse!)<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

ok, but I'm an engineer d@mmit! We're supposed to function as perfectly as our machines. And if our machines don't function perfectly, well, we're just going to obsess over it (and over it and over it), till it does! Oh, and we're not gonna sign off on it unless it has got some friggin huge "safety factor". LOL<P>Just learning,<BR>I'm no spring chicken, I'm 35! I went to undergrad at night. Took me about 8 yrs total. I worked for about 5 years afterward and have been in gradschool for two. Ok, so my ex had a hard time supporting me emotionally for this. Grad school seems like small beans compared to the REAL challenges in life, which leads me too.....<P>dMac, the reason why my infidelity happened. I originally wrote this big huge story, but after reading it over I can sum it up in just a few sentences. My H promised to support me in my educational goals and career goals before we got married. I supported him, but when it was my turn, he had a fit. He did move up here with me, but I felt I had to drag him kicking and screaming the whole way. I even offered to quit, but he wouldn't hear of it. Didn't want me to resent him, but I was resenting his "punishment" a whole lot more. I felt betrayed, tried to get over it. OM entered the picture, he made me feel I wasn't so terrible for wanting to go back to school. Looking back, my H was only happy in our marriage when everything was going all his way. And if things weren't going all his way, it must be my fault, and I'm this terrible person for not putting all of his needs before my own. You see, he did a pretty good job of convincing me of that. I'm still blaming myself for everything.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 27, 1999).]

TheStudent:<P>And you <I>STILL</I> believe that your affair caused the destruction of your marriage? I'm more convinced than ever that it was just a symptom of a larger problem. Your H clearly couldn't understand that marriage is a partnership, an institution of give <I><B>and</I></B> take.<P>I suspect that your H would only be happy with a bimbo who does everything HIS way. Since you clearly have a brain in your head, you probably caused his ego enormous problems. If he wasn't willing to put his ego in check for the good of the MARRIAGE, then nothing you could have done would save it. If he'd really wanted it, he'd have done what was necessary.<P>I still think you're WAAAAAAYYYYYYY too hard on yourself. In my book, he shoulders AT LEAST half of the blame for the end of the marriage.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

The Student,<P>I don't about not being a spring chicken,but 35 is still only early summer at worst . Go for it girl and this isn't engineering we are talking about either . You will be good marriage material when you get to where you want to be; before then there will always be conflicts between your drive to finish schooling and the time it takes for marriage.<P>As Lone Star says: don't beat yourself up about it. It is very hard on a spouse when one is in school and taking exams. Lone Star can tell you about the high cost of bar exams. <P>I am only guessing here but you are feeling guilty about the marriage failing only partly because of the affair. It has more to do with having you exH move here to support your dreams and then having the affair before he even arrives. Is that what this really all about? If so the consider what Dunc and Lone Star are saying. The marriage was in a mess before. You didn't help by having the affair, but you had help with the state of the marriage. <P>From my end of the telescope I would describe it as two people who found that they had very different goals and needs in their lives. You did marry too soon in my book, because you had other goals to take care of. Nothing wrong with that. <P>Now that we have it all categorized and annotated can the engineer back off and see the whole thing ?<P>Seriously, TS, you are still young. Out here where I live people are just starting families at 40 and older. They have waited until careers are started and people are ready for the requirements of marriage. You have plenty of time and really nothing to apologize for. You made apologies to your ex's and you really need not apologize to anyone else. Speaking of ex's (This is for Lone Star) you have heard the country song "All my ex's live in Texas"? One of my favorites along with several friends of mine who have several ex's in Texas. <P>Please think about all of this. TS you are going to do fine. You are not a bad person and you need to get on with life. Age is not important in this discussion because you are still in school. Once you finish that you, will have a large load lifted from your shoulders, I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT.<P>Now please take care of yourself and enjoy your life. It is the only one you have (and that is an engineering certainty ).<P>God Bless You<P>JL

Lonestar,<BR>Well, I don't know about a bimbo. Before we got married, we both agreed that we didn't want children. As each of his friends got married and had children, with the wives subsequently moving out of the workforce and into the home, I believe he started to envy them. Here's me, expecting him to do 50% of everything (housework, payola, and emotional stuff) and his friend's wives weren't. Then, to top it off, he's supposed to support me emotionally and financially to get a higher degree than he's got AND go to the #2 engineering school in the country, when he could barely get into #100? Dangerous territory there....<P>JL,<BR>Yes, part of the guilt was the "timing" of it. When it happened, and before I confessed, I was convinced that his angry behavior was something I'd have to deal with the rest of my life if I even *thought* about asking him to compromise anything. Part of the reason I confessed after 6 months was because, as he started to adjust and we started becoming happier, I felt more and more guilty. It occurred to me that I had perhaps simply lost faith in him and our marriage prematurely and made this huge mistake of cheating on him instead of really putting my foot down about his anger and the effect it was having on me. Plus, he had settled into his job, had found some friends. I felt he'd have some support, locally, for the news I was about to give him. Never, ever, did I think he would become as cruel as he did. His cruelty truly forced me to wonder if he ever really loved me. I remember how many times I literally fell to my knees, bawling, and begging to please, please forgive me while he tortured me with every awful name you could imagine. That is another thing I'm having a hard time with. How could I not see this side of him before we got married, and especially before I confessed? Remembering those times, and reading your advice is finally making me come full circle. I'm feeling much better now, thanks to you guys. <P>After the divorce he said "maybe we'll get back together in a few years, after you finish school" and I said "You think I'm going to want your sorry *ss after I've gone through this all by myself?" Yea right, hook back up with me when I can be the cash-cow again. I don't friggin think so!!<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 27, 1999).]

TS,<P>My dad is an industrial construction General Superitendant, he has a tenth grade education and got his GED in boot camp in 1962.<P> We had a conversation this weekend about his latest project. He is siesmic(I can't spell)retro-fitting several bridges in the Bay are. His biggest problem are his engineers(please, no offence what so ever is meant)they ALWAYS give him complicated solutions to simple problems. Over anylising and over budget. He says they hate him becuase he tells them to redo everything so he can understand it with his tenth grade education, that way his foremen can get his carpenters and loborers to do the tasks at hand.<P>Where am I going with this? Everything I have read on this string are simple solutions to a complicated problem. I have learned a great deal reading this.<P>So remember easy does it and please give yourself a break.<P>Try to keep it real simple and one day at a time. That is the ONLY way I've been able to keep my sanity.<P>Don't worry about tomorrow.<P>I've been told that if I keep one foot in yesterday and one foot in tomorrow, I'll piss all over today.And Today is all I've got.<P>If I sound harsh or mean it is in no way intended. You sound like a beautiful person that is in alot of pain, I only want to see you be happy with you.<P><BR>Dmac & Suse,<P>I want to thank you both for shareing your experience and insite. I has kept my hope way up, for that I thank you from the bottom of my heart.<P>I coppied the post on Teenage rebellion=Infidelity. I read it every few days. My beautiful W could have written it.<P>I have thought about shareing it with her. Do you think I should?<P>Thank you again,<P>Bill<BR><P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

WilliamJ,<P>My specialty, don't laugh, is fatigue, stress and failure analysis. I'm familiar with that seismic stuff. Say that ten times, analysis, analysis, analysis, yech. I'm beginning to see the pattern here...<P>I liked your analogy about pissing on Today. You are so right. Here's a quote from another one of my favorite singers, Ani Di Franco<P>"I try to laugh at whatever life brings. When I look down I just miss all the good stuff. When I look up, I just trip over things." Words to live by, huh? Thanks!!

TS,<P>You are sounding much better. <P>I can sleep better knowing that you are feeling better.<P>Fatigue and stress analysis??<P>Sounds way to heavy.<P>I think I'll stick to making teetht. hehehe.<P>Sleep well tonight you deserve it.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

My friend Duncanmac:<P>Infidels are Good people.....hmmmmmmmmmmmm........interesting sentence.<P>Let's see..in my experience..infidels are destroyers of families..marriages...trust...and more...they had their pleasure, which they NOW decide is wrong..but which their spouse has to live the rest of their lives in Hell for....It is convenient for you..that you committed adultery while still married..but your marriage had already ended...you say Suse f**ked another man for 6 years..how horrible for you and all in your family...so when YOU finally committed adultery..you weren't Really married....your marriage had ended years before....and it was NOT the same act. Your wife committed an atrocious act against your entire family..perhaps in order to get back at her, you screwed another woman..but remember forever....your marriage was over when you did this..you did NOT have a Loving, Faithful, wife at home waiting for you...what you had was a woman who was/is capable of the morst horrendous crime against a marriage and family..by your side...no one could say it was the same.(I mean your sexual exploits with another woman)<P>My point is that the two infidelities were not comparable...she ended your marriage the first time she took her clothes off with HIM....if you had sex later with a woman not your wife..it had little meaning..your wife had already Ended your marriage...is this hard to understand???<P>DG99(H)

D99 - have you divorced your wife yet? As I recall, she's "ended your marriage" already, so why not just finish it up legally?<P>People are people. There are so many different kinds of people in the world - and so many types of bigotry. I never thought I'd call your attitude bigotry, but when you come right down to it, that's what it is. You could substitute almost any ethnic or racial group into most of what you say and it would make just about the same amount of sense.<P>Hatred only damages he who hates. Are you happy yet?<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P>

Just Learning,<P>How on earth do you see "I just got married to soon" as an adequete response to the question of divorce. PLEASE! What's the difference? Yes we all have to deal with our mistakes and who we are every day. Can you be serious about beginning a new relationship or friendship based on what is really a lie by omission/rationalization? I have done plenty of things in my life that I regret, I learned from those things, that's why I would never sacrifice my loyalty. This is not a revelation that has come about through my ordeal, it's something I've learned to live by. I have no problem telling folks of my mistakes in life; take me for what I am, for I LEARNED from those mistakes. I hope that this learning and it's sincereity speaks for itself. If it does not, then so be it, I'll choose my relationships based on the judgement I can accept, and expect from others. <P>Eric <p>[This message has been edited by Eric32 (edited December 28, 1999).]

Eric32,<P>I did not mean or actually say to tell someone TS is serious about to push it off as "I got married too soon". She asked what she would tell male and female friends and acquaintances that in response to their questions. It is an accurate statement and certainly all they need to know about her private life.<P>If/when she becomes serious about someone then honesty is the best policy. And as I said to her she knows so much more about relationships and marriage than she did before. This I feel is a plus to a discerning prospective partner.<P>So if I gave the impression that I meant that she should hide information from a prospective spouse or spouse, I apologize. That was not the intent of the message.<P>Have we got that cleared up, Eric32?<P>Hope so.<P>JL

I'm only popping on briefly so apologies to you, The Student for not taking the time to post something of value. I will get back later. Besides, you sound like you're doing better! <P>Sorry, I just couldn't resist this one...<P>D99, take a chill pill willya? My wife. I think I'll keep her. Got a problem with that? If you do? I don't give a crap. Your revulsion of all imperfect humankind is pathetic. Because of your ridiculous attitude, your opinion is so devalued. Don't you see? Your arguments aren't really convincing. Nice try.

Eric32,<BR>Ah yes. So you have touched on my dilemma. D99 is here to further make my point. I'm purposely refusing relationships with most men because I don't want to answer the "question". No relationship, no lies. Pretty simple. For the most part, I believe that people who ask those questions don't do so because they want to help, but because they like to pry and have some dirt on you they can use to their advantage some day. They ask those kind of questions because it is so much easier to place a label on you than it is to PAY ATTENTION. The few people I HAVE told the truth to never asked me why. So, I believe I have finally answered my own question. The next time someone asks me why? I think I'll say..."If I knew the answer to that question, I wouldn't be divorced". END OF STORY. Whomever I chose to trust (male or female) is not going to get my heart on a platter, with me handing them the knife. Nope. Been there, done that. They are going to have to *prove* to me that they know what to do with the information I give them first. My affair didn't end my marriage anymore than my H's *sshole behavior caused my affair. Only lazy people expect a simple explanation, but it just ain't that simple. <P><BR>You know, I figured it was only a matter of time before the self-righteous would come out of the closet. They just can't pass up the chance to throw in a few licks. The fact that it bothers me less and less just shows me how far I've come in the past year or so. Thank you so much!! It really helps me to see the face of the "enemy" now and then. And I'm not being facetious.<P>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 28, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 28, 1999).]