Dave,

More good questions. I have to say that I came here, hoping to rebuild my marriage. Even though I was in the "fog" and I had a lot to figure out, I was sure that I wanted to remain close to my H. As far as being sorry for the A or realizing that it was "wrong", nope, I'm not there yet. I AM sorry for the A in that it's hurt my H, but I took up with my girlfriend because I felt so attracted to her and I wanted to figure it all out.

I didn't think to myself (as the previous poster said), "I shouldn't be having this" (as though it's something, like grapes, that I shouldn't have). I thought and felt that it was something that needed to be explored, and yes, I did try to rationalize it by saying that it was with a woman, so it was not exactly "cheating", although when it became more serious, both she and I knew it was indeed cheating. We fell in love, and everything I knew in the past began to be questioned.

I'm not making excuses here. I've always been heterosexual and attracted to my H. We had some problems before my A, in that my H was busy, stressed and not too nice to be around. I was pulling away slowly because I was just coming into my own after being a dedicated wife and mother for 17 years. The fact that I fell in love with a woman made me question so much, and it's what I tried to muddle through all throughout my A.

As far as thinking it's wrong to be with someone of the same sex, my feelings changed after being with my girlfriend. I could never understand why people would want to be with someone of the same sex. Now I know. She and I clicked in a way that a man and woman can't. We were extremely close and some things in the relationship were much easier. Being with a woman was very natural and easy for me (although I can't see being with any other woman, ever!). The sex (as you asked previously, Dave) was amazing. Although sex with my H was wonderful (he was my "first"), sex with my girlfriend was "mind-blowing" as she's told me. She knew exactly what would please be, being a woman herself. That's all I'll say about that topic.

I'm not putting any dreamy spin on my A. She and I had MANY, MANY problems, from the beginning, even though we were in that euphoric state for a long time. The distance between us, our marriages, our children, our responsibilities, the fact that we were both women, this all put major stress on our relationship. So it wasn't all a dreamy-like relationship for me. It wasn't exactly escapism like most affairs are. It was stressful and wonderful at the same time.

So, am I regretting it or feeling like it was "wrong"? No. Maybe it's because I'm still in the fog. Maybe it's because I'm more open minded? I don't know. I'm only sorry, once again, for hurting my H and breaking our vows and disintergrating his trust for me. But I'm not sorry that I explored what I did, although I've never been hurt like this before in my life, and I've been through MANY tragedies.

I guess I have a lot to figure out before I can decide if I want to rebuild my marriage and be with a man again. I thank you all for your input. I am continuing to read a lot here, so hopefully that will help. Does anyone know if there have been other members here who were in a similar situation to mine? I'm curious, because I've been reading up on sites since I started my A, and no one's situation sounded similar. Most people either knew they were gay or bi. I don't know what I "am". I'm very confused about it all. The only thing I'm sure of is that I want my H in my life, and he's proven to be a wonderfully supportive person (but I knew that all along).

I'll post more when I can. Thanks everyone.

CC

Initially I thought the husband of CC was lucky because the W had an affair with another woman instead of a guy. But, now that I think about it, it is probably worse! If my wife had an affair with another woman and suddenly discovered that she is a lesbian then I would have little hope of rebuilding the marriage. As a man I can compete with another man, but if my wife was in love with a woman I could not compete with that at all.

Stanley,

Yes, that's where my husband is at. He's just waiting to see what conclusions I come to. He's very patient. Last night in bed, we snuggled for the first time in a long time. Our MC suggested that my H back off and wait for me to approach him, but last night for some reason he approached me and I wasn't pushing him away (a big change!). He wanted it to go further than cuddling, but I wasn't nearly ready. I guess that time will answer everything.

My H said the same thing that you did--that while it's easier for him to accept that I had the A with a woman, it's hard for him not to know who/what I'm attracted to now.

CC, I don't think you need to label yourself as anything, and I don't think you are anything but a loving person. That's one mental debate that I would just drop.

There is a lot of life after sex. If you could get the same feeling of "mind blowing" sex from a drug, would you allow yourself to become addicted? Because you have.

You could really lose a lot. Obviously your husband recognizes that you are worth the agony that you are putting him through. Make some of the hard choices and be proud of yourself. You don't have to accept shame when you don't feel it. But don't allow passion of a forbidden fruit to blind you of what you already have. 17 years of your life has been dedicated toward building a relationship with someone you love. What are you going to do with that?

I truely believe that you will soon be feeling better.

CC,

I read your last post shook my head and said "that figures" and then still felt incredibly sad for you and your H. You said a few things I thought I remark about. They are really just comments and observations and perhaps just points of sensitivity to your H.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More good questions. I have to say that I came here, hoping to rebuild my marriage. Even though I was in the "fog" and I had a lot to figure out, I was sure that I wanted to remain close to my H. As far as being sorry for the A or realizing that it was "wrong", nope, I'm not there yet. I AM sorry for the A in that it's hurt my H, but I took up with my girlfriend because I felt so attracted to her and I wanted to figure it all out.

I didn't think to myself (as the previous poster said), "I shouldn't be having this" (as though it's something, like grapes, that I shouldn't have). I thought and felt that it was something that needed to be explored, and yes, I did try to rationalize it by saying that it was with a woman, so it was not exactly "cheating", although when it became more serious, both she and I knew it was indeed cheating. We fell in love, and everything I knew in the past began to be questioned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part concerns me because it says you see no moral or compelling reason to honor your vows, if you see something or someone that interests you. I am glad you are at least interested in considering working on your marriage, but without commitment any work or rebuilding will be on sand.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was pulling away slowly because I was just coming into my own after being a dedicated wife and mother for 17 years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It strikes me as odd that you would not feel being a mother was being "your own". It strikes me as very self focused that you feel that being married has prevented you from being you. If you truely feel this way your kids and your H certainly don't hold a very high place in your life. Is that a problem with you? That you don't few these people as very important to your life and development as a human being?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, am I regretting it or feeling like it was "wrong"? No. Maybe it's because I'm still in the fog. Maybe it's because I'm more open minded?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, lack of commitment is not about being open minded. Although, here where I live it is often said that one can be so open minded that their brains fall out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I realize again that you are not unique, but as long as you feel it was NOT wrong (I mean having an affair no matter the gender) your H really is left with NOTHING to build on. You just leave him hanging with no possible support for any "faith" he may have in rebuilding the marriage.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know. I'm only sorry, once again, for hurting my H and breaking our vows and disintergrating his trust for me. But I'm not sorry that I explored what I did, although I've never been hurt like this before in my life, and I've been through MANY tragedies.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah but the interesting thing is that YOU had full control of all of this. It was done with your orchastration, your desires in mind, and with malice of forethought. This is a tragedy for your H because he had NOTHING to say about it. It was simply the normal consequences of your actions for you. So while you may feel hurt it was self-inflicted.

I still have a hard time getting around that you had pictures of her on your bedstand and right in your H's face. Man that is cold, I do mean cold.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I have a lot to figure out before I can decide if I want to rebuild my marriage and be with a man again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree but I don't think it is about being with a man or woman. I think you should focus on what marriage means to you. What vows mean to you. What honesty and commitment really mean to you. These are the issues that you are going to have to address before there is any hope of rebuilding your marriage. Your H needs to know that you at least that these things have some meaning to you, and won't be just pitched out the door if you get the urge to explore. Because remember you were on the net searching for someone or something before this started.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does anyone know if there have been other members here who were in a similar situation to mine? I'm curious, because I've been reading up on sites since I started my A, and no one's situation sounded similar. Most people either knew they were gay or bi. I don't know what I "am". I'm very confused about it all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well actually I know that JustJ and Warm Ashes are both in relationships like yours. However, they were both on the betrayed side of things. JustJ posts every now and then. I'll see if I can send her here. She is a really cool lady I have actually had the pleasure of meeting in person. Warm Ashes posts mostly on Emotional needs and I will see if I can send her over her as well.

There have been over the years men who have posted that were in your H's situation. A few recovered the marriage, most were dumped for their lesbian lover. There is a woman here how's H is going the other way, Debbra I believe is her name.

I keep saying you are not unique, and I really mean it. You are not.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only thing I'm sure of is that I want my H in my life, and he's proven to be a wonderfully supportive person (but I knew that all along).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what troubles me. You knew this about him and yet you did what you did. You clearly want to use him for support, but you just as clearly are not willing or even interested in helping him.

Most WS's say that want to keep the BS as a friend even after a divorce. But the BS often correctly asks "friends?" why would I want a friend that has treated me this way? If I offered you friendship and then betrayed you at every turn and rejected you, do you think I would have much to recommend me to you??

That is the problem your H is going to struggle with. You see no real problem with the A other than you got caught and hurt many people. Further, your H know has to worry about both men and women with regard to your fidelity. At this point you have given him NO ground to make a stand on. I hope as your withdrawal continues and you see things a bit differently you will be able to offer him the very thing you cherish in him "wonderfully supportive person".

You are not there by a long shot. But, there is hope. Do keep reading and I will see if I can send JustJ and Warm Ashes to you.

God Bless,

JL

Dave,

Thank you for that kind post. I'm grateful for the nice things you said about me. Truly, I am! I've never been a "bad" person, and never gave my parents, my H, or anyone close to me anything at ALL to worry about. I've always been the one to pick up the pieces and spread sunshine where there was none. So, this is all very different for me.

As far as the addiction of my relationship with my GF (it's easier to call her a girlfriend, rather than ex-lover or what-have-you), I was obsessed with her from the beginning of our friendship. She was like a breath of fresh air--everything about her! She had a wonderful witty sense of humor, and just being from that part of Canada was different culturally than I'd ever experienced. It was unique listening to her accent, listening to the simple, wonderful way her life seemed to be. I wasn't tempted by any "forbidden fruit" and only when we began our sexual/romantic affair did I realize how far I'd crossed over the line regarding my marriage. I tried to justify it in my head, saying that it was "true love" and that "lightening struck twice" and this time it was with a woman. I tried to figure out if THIS was meant to be and if I was meant to be with a woman, her.

The whole experience was wonderful and anxiety-ridden at the same time. I didn't enter into it, totally disregarding my H. I thought of him often and knew it would hurt him to know about the A. Yet it continued. My GF was the stronger of us, and ended it. I, on the other hand, wanted to see where it would lead, and I wanted to find out who I would have chosen to end up with. I never got that chance.

JL,

I can't address your entire post right now (and I hate that I can't see it, to refer to it while I'm responding), but I'll say that I kept my GF's picture by my bedside from the beginning--when we were "innocent" friends. My H thought that she and I were inseparable; not lovers (back then), and he only hinted at my being a "lesbian" occasionally, and joked about having her picture around. He had no REAL problem with it, otherwise I'd have taken it down.

I want to say that you're right--I can't event think that I'm ready to rebuild my marriage when I can't admit that the A was something wrong. I know that morally it was wrong, but I can't come to terms with it being wrong in my heart. Does that make sense?? More importantly, the whole A puts me at a crossroads in my life. I KNOW it's all my doing, and I've turned my H's life upside down too, but I can't deny something that I feel. If I feel that I'm a lesbian, or even bisexual, then I have to figure out what I am before I could commit to a life with just him again.

As far as my children fulfilling me, I guess I didn't make things clear. I was TOTALLY fulfilled being a caring wife and mother. THEY were my entire life. There was only a small part of "me" getting out every now and again. I didn't have much time on my own. I didn't even have time to figure out what else I wanted in life, other than to be a caring, nurturer. When they got a little older and I started caring about my own health, only then did I start to question, "is there MORE out of life?". Does that make sense??

I was very happy being a mother (still am), but I only began wondering about ME these past few years. I guess it's my own fault--not spending any time on my own all throughout my life. I went from living at home with my parents, right into marriage. We had 3 years alone together, and it was spent happily. I was eager to play the happy bride. We entertained, went away on vacations and lived happily. Then we had children and my world revolved around them. I stopped working (as we both agreed I'd do) and they were my main priority. I balanced the children and my H, along with a happy home life--something I'd never seen as a child, being the child of an alcoholic father. I found normalcy and I was very happy.

I don't know if that makes any difference, or if I'm now feeling that I've missed out on my independence or not. I *did* get my bellybutton pierced when I was 41, after I had lost a substantial amount of weight. My parents were upset over it!! This was a departure from the conservative me. I also got a tattoo on my lower back last summer, it being a reward for keeping the weight off for a year. Another big departure, and maybe it was during the middle of my mid-life "crisis". I don't know...

Anyway, gotta run to pick up my son from school. I'll write more when I'm able. We have a MC session later on today too.

Thanks again for your input, everybody.

CC

I can't address your entire post right now (and I hate that I can't see it, to refer to it while I'm responding)
I just copy and paste the original post into a Word/text document and type a reply.
Then when I am done, I copy what I typed and hit "Reply" in the post & paste it into box.

CC,

One way to see a whole post and respond is to copy it using your edit commands and then past it into a word process like Word or Word pad. Then construct your response and past it back into the response window.

You can also take parts or all of a post and put them into highlighted quotes but copying what you want and placing them between the following commands {quote}stuff goes here {/quote} I used curly brackets so that it would not work, but if you use the square brackets instead then they will be quoted.

I sent email to JustJ and left a post for Warm Ashes to respond to you. I hope they see them. I think they may be able to offer you some insights that clearly I cannot.

I look forward to the rest of your response.

God Bless,

JL

CC,

I can not let this go unchallenged...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My GF was the stronger of us, and ended it. I, on the other hand, wanted to see where it would lead, and I wanted to find out who I would have chosen to end up with. I never got that chance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Surely you know the time for choosing is BEFORE marriage, NOT after. Married people don't get to shop around. That's the perogative of singles only. Why did you think it was ok to act like you were single? Forgive me, but that question needs exploration on your part...

By the way, did your husband "get the chance" to say no to your betrayal before it happened? I am pretty sure that it was he who was robbed of a chance here.

Hope I've given you food for thought. I only mean to help.

Best wishes,
Nat

Natalie,

I wasn't "shopping around" nor was I "exploring". I was CERTAIN that I wanted to be with my H, and convinced that we'd be true to each other for eternity. I would have bet my life on it. We were head over heels in love when we married (and for the 4 previous years we were engaged)! What happened with my GF was never expected, nor planned. I never felt the need to explore. I guess you haven't read all of my posts because in them I explained how shocked I was that I fell in love with someone other than my H, and that it was a woman! Total shock for me. Not planned! Acting on it was of my own accord, you're right there. And for some reason I justified it in my head b/c it was with a woman and not a man. I'm still trying to figure a lot of it out.

We had another MC session tonight. I'm encouraged to explore what I want to "be". Being a mother isn't a good enough answer. The therapist thinks that I need to explore what I want out of life, and what I have to offer it. I always thought that when we decided to have children, being a mother was my priority, and if they grew up to be healthy, caring adults who gave something back to this world, then I'd have felt like I did my job. I guess the therapist is implying that I'm now searching for more. It's a lot to mull over.

He also suggested that my H think about his future, apart from a future with me. He's right. My H needs to find out what he wants out of his future. Does he want to keep on working at this stressful pace? Does he want to slow down and take more time for himself? Will he be able to wait for me, to see if we can piece a life back together? We'll see...

JL,

Thank you for the posting advice. When I post more, I'll use your techniques. Thanks also for referring other people to my posts. We'll see what other input I'll get. For now I'll think over my whole MC session and possibly set up an appointment for me with some kind of therapist specializing in sexual preferences. It all needs to be talked out.

Interesting point that came up in tonight's MC session was that my friends and my gf all had very similar qualities to my H: intelligence, wit, humor, etc.

Gotta go for now. I'll post tomorrow. Thanks to all who posted here.

CC

Dear CC:

I am sorry for the pain visited on you, your H and your family.

I think you should sit back and really listen to JL here. The idea of your sexuality appears moot to me. You have already stated that you had been sexually attracted and during your A you stated you were still sexually attracted to your H so at most you may be BI-Sexual, but so what!! A bisexual cannot make a committment to one person and keep to it? This is an issue of honesty and committment and an affair as typical as any on this board. You have to decide the type of person you wish to be and to show to your children. One who runs when the going gets tough or one who decides to put the work in on your M and fix what is wrong and move forward.

If your H is as supportive as you say, why can you not "find" yourself within the M and stop staring at your navel; start a new career or go to school.

If you decide you just don't want to be married fine let your H go. At least let him start to heal. The idea that he was good enough to have affection with while in the affair but now is persona non grata is very hurtful even in the fog you must admit this.

At some point the attention has got to come off poor CC and onto the innocents greatly harmed in this affair i.e. your H and family.

I say this because you will heal faster if you can look past yourself and start to care for others (as JL so wisely points out).

You must decide if your marraige vows have any meaning for you now or not. Again, I truly believe that the sexuality issue is not relevant here. It deciding on your M or not. Please go back to JL second to last post and really read it. It is the essence of how you should move forward in my very humble opinion.

I hope you give this some serious thought and quickly. This affair is not all about you. There are other players with their own agenda. You may have the game changed without your input just as you changed your M without your H's input.

I am not being harsh. I was almost a WS until I looked at what affairs can do to people. I am just hoping to get you to look at this.

All my best

JD

P.S> I do not mean to be harsh. I am just hoping you avoid a potential mistake. I also posted after Just J and excellent post worth printing out and attaching to your bulliten board.

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: willmakeitwork ]</small>

Oh..... brother. Okkkkkayyyyyyyy...... Ahem. Well, nothing like having to dig around in one's own painful past to answer a post. *sigh* Right then.

Hi, CC. I'm Just J. J for short.

As JL mentioned, I'm one of the two posters in these here parts who are in same-sex relationships. I showed up here because my WP (wayward partner) had crossed the line from our open marriage into infidelity. The line was in a different place than most people put it in, but it turns out to be the same line.

That's not, however, the story I'm going to tell you.

See, we -did- have an open marriage (the ethics of which I am not going to address right now, but let's just say that it's NOT a way to solve problems), and I took advantage of that openness as much as she did.

In the course of our open marriage, I had sexual relationships with three different men, and nonsexual intimate relationships with two other women. I loved all of them. For the peanut gallery, yes, love involves a fog. It's known in some circles as "new relationship energy." It is dangerous because without extraordinary precautions in order to ensure that you do no harm while you're in that state, well ... you do harm. A lot of it.

And yes, things were very, very complex in my world, and when I look back on it, it's a wonder I juggled it for any length of time at all.

I'll come back to that in a minute. First, though, I want to address this whole deal about sexuality.

Having been quite thoroughly sexual for the entirety of my 20s and early 30s, I believe I can safely say that there are some people -- and you and I are among them -- who fall in love first, and check the sex of the person afterwards.

Ain't nothing wrong with that. If you'd like a label, try bisexual. It's as close to fitting as any.

So, back to this other thing that I want to talk to you about, which is the question of what you DO with all that sexual energy that you, I, and Gertrude up there in the peanut gallery all have going on in us.

Love will not, unfortunately, see you through all your trials and tribulations. I made that mistake and paid for it dearly; I'm still paying for it. I very nearly lost my daughter for my belief that love would conquer all. I did lose the love of my life.

So nowadays, I try to balance things a great deal more. Yes, love is great stuff. It's heady, wonderful, intensely lovely STUFF. We all like it. We are all, in fact, addicted to it. It's the greatest chemical high known to man.

And our societies purposely put these annoying limitations on our sexuality. Pissed me off for years. Thing is, society is RIGHT to put those limitations on us. Which pissed me off even more.

After getting my fingers burned, I learned a little. After getting my entire body seared from head to toe, I learned a lot more.

So instead of the bisexual label, I'd offer that you try on a couple of other labels as well:

Married. Compassionate. Caring. Respectful. Learning. Strong. Honest. Ethical.

Those are really good labels to wear, if you've got to wear them at all.

Can you investigate your sexuality while remaining married? ABSO-fricking-LUTELY. (Back to answering the question of what you do with your sexual energy, which I posed and then didn't answer up there a ways.) You SHOULD investigate it thoroughly. With your husband. No, really, I'm not kidding. Take him by the hand and search, with him, for the farthest reaches of the wildest sexual antics you can possibly imagine.

Take each other places you never dreamed you could or would go. And not just the good places, but the dark, frightening ones as well. A true exploration of sexuality is completely possible with one other person. You and he will never reach the limits of what's there to learn, if you simply are open to it.

Trust me on this, I know from the other side. I've had, err, *mumble* total sex partners in my life (hey, a girl has to have ONE secret. I'll tell the next person who wants to marry me, promise).

By the time things got bad for me and my partner, I wanted, more than I could say, to just set down all the craziness and explore, with that one person I loved with all my heart.

Unfortunately, she had already gone. And I have been celibate for more than two years.

So.... don't follow my example. I'm pretty sure it's a dead-end kind of a deal.

The sex you had with your affair partner WAS mind-blowing, though, and we both know it. Of course it was. How could it not be? It had everything going for it -- the longest foreplay ever (weeks and months between actual sex acts), forbidden love because it was an affair (which, yes, DOES make it more intense), forbidden love because it was another woman (which, yes, will again make it more intense), thousands of words going back and forth between you..... and most importantly, the vast majority of it was online and on the telephone, where you could fill in all the gaps between the words and the pauses. That's incredible sex, right there. And if you want that high again, and your husband is willing, play e-mail sex games with each other -- and ONLY each other. Make sure that you both have each other's passwords while you're at it. (Trading passwords -- safe Internet sex for the new millenium.)

So, back to the fantasy aspects, here, the gaps. We all fill the gaps betwen the words and the pauses. We have to in order to create a picture of what's really going on. And we fill in all those gaps with bits of our own personalities. It's the only thing we have, after all, to fill them with. So you filled in these gaps of a picture of a woman who you met online, who filled your emotional needs for conversation and affection, who gave you intense sexual intimacy, and with whom you shared common recreational interests.

Well, dang. For those who are playing along at home, guess what we have? The best way ever to create a situation where two people will fall in love. So yes, Gertrude, it could happen to you, too. Don't hold hands with your bridge partner.

CC, I have been where you are in another way. One of the intimate nonsexual relationship I had ended up much like yours, with my affair partner telling me she was going back to her partner and I needed to get on with my life.

I moped. I cried. I ranted. I wrote long updates. (Not every day, but that's all right.) I kept it up for nearly a year and a half. Talk about crazy-[censored] nutcases. I'm sure I looked like one.

Heck, I'm sure my WP would accuse me of being a stalker if she thought she could get away with it. I've told her I love her, uhm, four times in the last year. You know us loyal folks. Crazy like loons, we are. Howling at the moon fricking EONS after everyone else got over it and got on with life.

So, okay, CC, you're a-howling at the moon with me, right? Right. Great. How about if you shanghai yourself into howling after the TRUE love of your life -- your husband? No, really. Good man. Snuggles with you even after you have an affair. Willing to give you a year to figure out your head. Probably has faults. And farts sometimes, too. That's all right. He's still the most sexually exciting human you will ever meet. I am not kidding.

And better than that, he's available right there in the same house with you. You've even already picked out the matching dishtowels and stuff. Much easier than other options, and I sincerely believe that it's the BEST one, too.

So, here's what I would suggest.

Go find yourself a 12-step program. Yes, I know you're not an addict. Neither am I. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Sigh. Go back up and read where I said we are ALL addicted to the chemicals that are associated with love. God designed us that way so we wouldn't drown our spouses when they break our favorite meatloaf dish.

This is something that EVERYONE should do (and yes, peanut gallery, I'm serious about that for you, too). Start working it through, one step at a time.

Here, I'll help. I lifted this listing of the 12 Steps from http://www.fact-index.com/1/12/12_steps.html, and then modified it to make it about something other than alcohol.

12 Steps for Recovering Affair Partners

1. We admitted we were powerless over our relationship with an affair partner -- that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other people trapped in infidelity, and to practice these principles in all our actions and relationships.

Now, I am not an expert in 12 Step programs. Nothing like it. This is just a thing that I did on my own last year to start to understand what was going on in my life.

I do know this, though. Even if you only sort of believe that very first of the steps, it's worth it to keep thinking about it, and to remain open to the possibility that there IS someone better than you available to figure these things out and get your life back on track.

And that does NOT mean you have to renounce one iota of WHO YOU ARE. It does not mean you have to walk around squishing people who offend your sensibilities by WHO THEY ARE. It just means that you take a really big flashlight and you shine it on your own actions and you look to see where others have been hurt -- and you understand that maybe you were not really thinking straight when you did those things, and you'd better ask for a whole lot of help in getting to the point of thinking straight.

All rightee. I do seem to have gone on and on a bit. Sorry about that, CC. This is a part of my life that I don't get to talk about all that often, so when I do, I have a lot of things to say about it. Thanks for showing up and letting me talk!

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

CC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You just got a small dose of JustJ. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She is a piece of work and a very good one I will tell you. Please listen to her. I think her line of thought will be very beneficial to you.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I, on the other hand, wanted to see where it would lead, and I wanted to find out who I would have chosen to end up with. I never got that chance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CC,

I'm sorry if I upset you. It doesn't sound like you deliberately set out to hurt your husband and family. And what is past is past. I'm concerned from the quote above that the regret you feel however is very much in the present. And while many of us would like to see you regret the affair it seems that you what you regret is that it ended and you weren't given the time to choose between your husband and your lover.

I hope I'm wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess you haven't read all of my posts </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the record, I have read each and every one. You have received some great advice, some great insights. I hope they will touch you when the time is right.

Best of luck in your recovery.

Nat

Dear CC,
This is an incredible thread ! I have been reading it for almost two hours and here I come like the tail on the donkey after that wonderful post from our dear JustJ. JL caught my attention on another thread and suggested that I visit you here. Soooooo....
I am going to respond ,like JustJ, from a very personal point of view and hope that I don't sound repetitious.
First of all, I think that a number of the other posts were scathingly unfair, harsh, and judgemental. I thought you were very brave to continue posting. To me that seems more like someone who is struggling through some pretty difficult stuff and is trying their best to get as much helpful input as possible. Good for you !
It is a blessing that you have a husband who loves you so much, and is willing to try to work things out. It is great that you have started counselling together, but it may be a good idea to try some individual therapy as well, as there are some things that your husband just does not need to listen too. This is not meant as a criticism whatsoever, it's just that while you are sorting out your sexual identity and details of your feelings for your ex-lover , it would simply be unnecessary pain for him.
I do agree with JustJ almost completely, but I would like to offer you a few personal perspectives. I am in my late 50's and have been living with my same sex partner for over 10 years. Before that I was married for 23 years and we had three children. Growing up I had some brief lesbian interaction, but when I met my husband, I fell in love in all the usual ways. I loved him dearly, and even told him about "those experiences", before we married, and it was of no consequence to him.(I don't think men see it as quite the same threat. So I've heard !) So we carried on. I had absolutely no thoughts of women. I was quite happy with my heterosexual partner. As the years wore on, our marriage got into trouble, but is had nothing to do with sexual identity...none.
We eventually divorced and went our separate ways.
I was 7 years celebit and then was knocked off my feet by a very sexually agressive younger woman.
It was a nightmare of a relationship, and only lasted about 7 months. But the flavour lingered !
Statistically, any human person is "capable" of bisexuality, but each individual responds along a sexual continuum and is more or less likely to lean towards that behaviour. To one person it is totally unthinkable, to another it is highly preferable, most of us are somewhere in between on the continuum. Some homosexuality is thought to be genetic in origin, and I don't disagree with that. It's the disposition along that continuum that is genetic, and then some enviromental factors can also play into the picture.
In a rather long winded way, I am simply saying, there is nothing that strange about your ability to respond to another woman. Our bodies are wired to respond to sexual stimulation...period.
There is a particular bonding that occurs between two women, both physically and emotionally. It is a very tenacious bond, very seductive.
We understand the emotional finesse that women share and respond to the nurturing aspect of our nature, as both giver and receiver. Very powerful attraction here.
I fellin love with my present partner, about a year after that crazy short lived affair. I wasn't looking at all. In fact, I was pretty unintersted in both men AND women. She is quite overweight (I was not), but she had a heart of gold. It made NO difference what gender she was. I fell in love with her essence, I fell in love with her soul. And so we are together, each of us having come out of long term het' marriages, with 6 children between us and grandchildren to boot.
So do I understand your experience? Yes, I think so. Now the big question.......In my opinion, it really was a mistake to enter into that relationship while committed to your husband. It wouldn't matter what anyones gender is or was, it's about committment, and honour and love.
I think you realize this now, and regret wholeheartedly the pain that has been inflicted.
Like any other broken heart, your H's will take time to heal, and you can greatly influence that healing with your love and determination to give yourself 100% to the marriage. The next thing is you BOTH will need to decide whether this IS the best way for you, your husband, and family, because it is going to take all the love, patience and effort that you can muster. Repairing and recovering is HARD WORK, but it certainly can be done. Your H seems to love you enough, do you love him enough ? If there is sufficient love on both sides you can set about building the most awesome new and exciting relationship together. It will never be quite like the old one, but it might be even more wonderful. You have learned something about yourself and your sexuality,you have been humbled by your mistakes, you have seen the power and love of your H's forgiving heart. These are some of the things that you might never have known, if you hadn't made those "mistakes". I am not condoning A's, but like in so many things in life, you can find the good in almost any situation.
JustJ's thought about the 12 step approach is great if you feel addicted to the high of an A.
Sometimes we get so swept off our feet, the Steps are very grounding.
I might suggest that you keep your ambivilance away from your H as much as possible, along with all the mementos, letters, pictures etc.(as you have done). Put them far, far away. In someone elses house even in a box labelled "For emergency law suite only". Show your H regret (if you can do that honestly), and complete willingness to do you part to repair the damage. If you accept learning about yourself in this way, the learning is not the crime, it's how it happened, and the undeserving pain it caused. If you come to a place where you feel that you no longer belong in the marriage, be honourable about it, and spare as much suffering as you can.
On that note, it has been researched that people can learn to be happy with most others. That compatibility is learned, and worked out. If you love your H and he loves you, you have every good chance of coming out of this in a win/win situation. So take a deep breath, look in the mirror, seek good counsel to help you and pray for the grace to make the right choice(s).
Wishing you peace. WA

I'll try to address each post here. Let me start with:

Warm ashes,

Your post touched me. At times I had to step away from this board because it's been very hard on me. Between this board and my MC, it's been rough to shine that spotlight on me, but it's what I wanted and what I need. I still need a lot more. I *will* seek out my own counselor, preferably a woman who has dealt with sexual identity situations.

Yes, I feel blessed to have my husband in my life. I KNOW how much he loves me, and even though I've hurt him, I still love him and consider him VERY, VERY close to me. We work very well together--we put on a big bbq this weekend, and we know how to work well together. My 90-something year old grandmother once told me that--that he and I reminded her of herself and my grandfather (a true love story if ever I saw one!). What a compliment. Anyway, he and I are still very close and want what's best for each other. I am TRYING to come to determinations here as quickly as I can, for the betterment of him and me. I don't want to leave him hanging, but I owe it to him to be SURE that I want to and am able to repair our marriage. Make sense??

As far as my sexual identity, I've been STRICTLY heterosexual my entire life. I'm in my early 40's now. I went from a loving, yet unstable home into my marriage. My father was an alcoholic (not physically abusive, just hard to deal with while intoxicated, but, hey, he had 6 kids and money was tight, so I could easily understand his need for that outlet). So, I had NO time on my own. I got engaged at 19 years old, and married my H 4 years later.

We immediately went into the "playing house" roles. He came from an alcoholic family as well (his father being verbally and sexually abusive--my H only endure the verbal abuse; his sisters however endured sexual abuse), and he pictured a perfect family for himself to set everything straight as it were. We were both VERY interested in perfecting these roles. We worked hard (both in the field of law), had friends, entertained and saw our families. Everything seemed right.

We had children 3 years later--much planned. We both decided that I'd be a SAHM. We didn't want our children to be deposited with a daycare person or some sitter. We wanted to enrich their lives and make them give something back to this world. Everything went smoothly.

We had child #2 two years after that. At that point, our sexual history was wonderful. As stated by JJ, we DID explore all that there was to explore; believe me (with the exception of involving other people!). We had a rich sexual life. The rest of our marriage seemed to be in tact. However, looking back on it, I think that he more than met me halfway in our disagreements (as few and far between as they were). He wanted peace and a comfort zone, and he got it.

We had SOME money issues at one point, yet we endured it and came out of it happily. "All we need is money" we thought.

I put ALL of my energy into a happy home. I was thrilled with being a mother, and kept house well. We continued to entertain. Our MC asked me what I wanted out of life. I replied, "I thought that I wanted to be a great mother," to which he replied, "bull****, that is not a career." Strange, but it seemed like it to me! It fulfilled me. I had worked for 15 someodd years before that and was ready to put my energies into a good stable homelife. Was that wrong?? Okay, looking back I think that I didn't make enough time for me. I didn't get out much, and didn't think of myself too much. My H and I spent much time alone but never went on enough actual dates, and NEVER ONCE went away alone for one night.

Okay, back to the sexual identity thing... I thought that I was happy. I was, for 17 years. Children grew up, all was good, except that life threw a few curveballs--our daughter had severe anxiety, which we tried to address with therapy right away. (that's another story though!)

So, I hit 40 years old, I was 40-50 lbs. overweight and realized I wasn't too happy, although from all appearances I had it all--I had a H who loved me, I had children who were great, I had my health. What more did I need? I don't know, but I went looking for it. I started taking care of myself-I lost 43 or so lbs, started exercising, and went online. I joined a messageboard and that's where I met my GF. You know how that went.

So, the sexuality question... During the height of my A, I became less and less interested in ALL men, including my H. I could only have sex with him while fantasizing about my GF. Not good, right? Well, he thought it was fine (he never knew what I fantasized about). It was okay until I started cringing at the thought of being with him. No longer could I pretend that it was enjoyable and he noticed. The more I pulled away sexually, the more he wanted to dominate me. Bad.

So, I could only achieve orgasm either WITH my gf or if I thought of her. It's still the same to this day, even though my sexual appetite is nearly gone. I have to add here, that I'm one of the RARE few who could orgasm just by mere thought. My gf did research on this topic. Interesting. I think it means that my brain is pretty powerful.

So, as far as being attracted to my H now, NO, I'm not. But then again, I'm not attracted to anyone, except for my former gf. So, what does that "make" me???

As far as doing the suggested 12 step program, I have problems with that, and it may annoy you posters. I still can't grapple with the fact that the A was "wrong". Guess I'm still in the fog, but I'm still dreaming about it, remembering it, etc. It felt so right. I can't very well throw myself back into my relationship with my H because I honestly don't know what I want. What I DO know is that this is a real crossroads for me. I've never stopped and contemplated my life before. I went about it happily b/c it looked perfect from the outside. This is the first time that I'm trying to figure out what I want, as selfish as that is, and as wrong as that is, considering that I have children and a 20 year marriage. But I didn't choose this time for it to happen.

So, I know that repairing my marriage will be hard, but I'm not even there yet. I've put the momentos aside, but she's still on my mind daily. I still miss her and grieve for what I've lost. I feel SICK over what I've done to my H. It's all so confusing to me that I could have done this at all. The mistake I've made is that I hurt my H and my children, and my gf's husband and her children too, while I thought that I was able to love them all. I was VERY loved by them all and thought I could somehow juggle it all without hurting anyone.

So, I'm at the point where I'm not ready to throw in the towel concerning my marriage, but I can't very well commit to fixing it when I'm so unsure about myself. It wouldn't be fair to my H to assure him that I'm willing to fix it, only to possibly hurt him again. I want to be STRONG and SO SURE that I can do it again.

One good thing: I had a dream last night that I was having sex with my H. That hasn't happened in years. In my dream I surprised him by wanting him and he was very happy. The fact that I dreamed about him sexually is possibly a good sign. I don't know... I wish that all of this hadn't happened and that this awareness of my awakening never took place. I was happily in my fog of a good marriage! I'm in a state of confusion right now and just want to know what I want out of life.

The ONE thing I'm sure of, as my H has stated also, is that we want to be in each other's lives forever. I am SURE that we'll have that bond forever, and even though posters here acknowledge that I've hurt him and have done damage, I think that he knows how close we are and that I feel inseparable from him. Maybe it's because of our 25 year history together, or maybe it's because of our friendship/bond, I don't know.

I never meant to hurt him, and all along I wanted to try to figure out what I really wanted regarding relationships and sexuality. Bad time to do it (during marriage) but it came up and wasn't planned, and I didn't want to hurt him by telling him right away (which probably was a mistake!).

Anyway, thanks for your words. I'm trying to look in the mirror and figure things out so I could ease the pain for my H, my children and ultimately for me. I'll re-read all the posts until they sink in. I'll post more when I can.

CC

willmakeitwork,

Thanks for your post. Just to answer you, as I've stated above to warmashes, I stopped being attracted to my H about a year or 2 ago. It became harder and harder to even have a sexual relationship with him without thinking of my gf. So I can't very well put my sexual energies into him right now.

I realize that I should come to a determination soon so as not to hurt him further, but he's willing to wait (up to a year, if he's able) until I'm REALLY sure I want our marriage back. He doesn't want me unless I'm sure. He doesn't want to be hurt again.

I know that the affair is not all about me. It's about how I became disinterested in my H and how we slowly grew apart, it's about how I was beginning to search to see what I really wanted out of life, it's about how I wanted to experience some freedom or excitement... It's about a lot.

You didn't sound harsh and I'm sorry if I come across as a baby about all of this. I'm just trying to sort through it all.

Thanks for your input and I'll try to re-read everyone's posts and let it sink in.

CC

JJ,

I'll try to answer your entire post.

Yes, I was very sexual in my 20's and 30's, within my marriage. I was happy with my entire life. When I hit 40, things changed.

My one question for you and for Warm ashes, is that from what I've read you two seem to be bi-sexual. You're attracted to men and women. Since I've only been attracted to this ONE woman, and right now I'm not attracted to anyone (except for my ex-gf in my dreams and fantasies), what am I?? That's part of my confusion. All along she and I tried to figure out if we would ever be strong enough to commit to a lesbian relationship. I'll never know.

So, right now I have nearly NO sexual energy. I can't even begin to think of having sex again with my H or ANYONE. Yup, maybe if my ex-gf were back in the picture, she'd flip my switch. In fact, I'm sure of it. The sex with her was amazing, and yes, it was probably due to our distance and it being exciting and all. But then again, it COULD be due to the fact that having sex with her (a woman) was very different for me. I don't know.

My H and I did explore our sexuality during our marriage. We had a wonderfully exciting sex life. Would he be willing to explore more? I doubt it. The older he gets, the more he's changing--getting more conservative, and I'm getting more rebelious. Not too good. Anyway, we've played games, we've done it all. My gf was amazed at my sex life and was envious. It was what she dreamed about for herself (with her H) but never attained it.

What you said about moping over the loss of your love was comforting. Glad to hear there's another love-crazed person like me out there. I KNOW I'm overly romantic and I put a spin on my relationship with her without dwelling on all the negative. I've begun to journal the DOWN side of my relationship with her, so I could be more aware that my relationship with her wasn't so perfect after all.

By all rights, if I could fall back in love with my H, I would. You're right--he's right here in the same house; we know each other well; he's supportive and generally wonderful.

Gee, I'm having a lightbulb moment here... When I spoke before about my ability to orgasm by mere thought, I guess I've NEVER depended on a partner, nor needed a partner like other people have. In the back of my mind, it was never a problem if I didn't get my sexual needs met because I could go into that mindset and achieve it whenever I wanted to. So, I didn't depend on my husband for that. I *did* come to depend on my gf for that however. She became SO entwined in my sexuality. Unexplainable.

Anyway, getting back to your post... I don't know if I'm even ready for the 12 step program. I have a few problems with it. I'm not ready to admit that my A was "wrong", even though I thoroughly admit that hurting the people closest to me was horrid and wrong. And, I cannot even begin to dwell on my "higher power" right now. Funny, I'm a catholic, and I've taught religious ed for YEARS, but right now I'm on shakey ground there, so I'm not ready to let God take over.

I think that I have things to figure out about me that I've buried for my entire life. I'm only coming to realize them now. And if I don't realize them and address them, I'll be of no use to anyone.

So, thank you for your time and your input. I've printed off this whole thread and will re-read everything when I get the chance. I appreciate that you went over these things with me, as did Warm ashes. I'm sure it wasn't easy for either of you and you've put yourself out there in order to help me. I'm eternally grateful! I'm only sorry that I'm not in a better place right now where I could commit to changing my marriage and working on it. I wish I were, but I think I have a long way to go.

Thank you again to everybody who posted. I'll post again soon.

CC

Dear CC,
Glad to hear back from you. I was thinking a lot about your situation today and then I got a sudden inspiration of sorts that I must share with you. With the description of your past, it occurred to me that what may have happened with your gf is that you in fact fell in love with a part of yourself. A part of you, unknown to that point in time. This may be why you find it so difficult to regard the situation as negative. If that is true, then, as caring a person as gf may be, it was actually an aspect of yourself with whom you bonded so deeply. And of course until you can clearly understand that, it will be difficult to separate yourself from the relationship. If and when you are able to do this, your relationship with your husband will only be enhanced as you will then be able to commit to him from a "whole" place. A place that you have come to embrace and accept as a part of who you are. This is growth enhancing stuff, CC, don't be afraid of it, just try to work with yourself and things will become clearer as you do so. Wishing you courage for the journey. WA

ps. I don't believe that being a SAHM was in anyway a bull**** career! It's one of the most difficult and important jobs going. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

p.p.s.,
To answer your question(as best that I can) regarding your sexual identity, perhaps check back to my earlier post when I referred to the continuum of sexual response-ability. You are a sexual human being with a position on that continuum, that allows you some flexibility.
It's not so very complicated. A lot of folk tend to get worked up over nothing. There again like so many things in life, there is always a choice as to which direction you take.
Keep smiling ! WA