JL:

Having read those words about how the female invites the male in because everything is just right is very painful.

I asked Myrta about the 1st time she jumped in bed with the OM.

I asked---- "My Lord was there any hesitation?" She said: "None, I really wanted to". Then after they were in bed the OM asked is she was sure she wanted penetration (he knew he would be the 2nd one ever). Myrta did not hesitate and said: "YES!!!"

It is very creepy for me to imagine how things got to that point. What did he do to get her to almost beg for it? I wish I could post this OM photo next to Myrta. This guy must be very smooth and I will never know how things got to that point. What was I doing at the time?

IT KILLS ME!

My 1st time with Myrta was nothing like that. She was a virgin and was probably scared. How could it be special again?

Stanley,

I am guessing but Let me say something that is very hard. This happened because Myrta wanted it to happen is my guess. He was NOT that smooth, she was willing and she wanted to. Ask Myrta, I believe that she will tell you that. I know this is hard to handle, and ultimately Myrta is going to have to address and face this and what it has done.

This did NOT happen because OM was so smooth, it happened because she wanted it to happen. She was looking and she found what she wanted at the time.

Her betrayal was because she wanted something so bad that she was willing to risk anything,and hurting you was not even a concern.

Pretty harsh isn't it? That is why Myrta is defending so. She knows what she did and she knows she did NOT care at all about what you would think. That is why her statements about loving you during the A are false. You were not on the radar screen.

STanley, this seems to be rather normal, and it is why it is called the "fog" she could not see you only what she wanted. It is the part that is so painful about this, AND it is the part that the WS must ultimately face, address, and make amends for by altering their behavior and protecting you.

It will happen, but there are some harsh truths Myrta is going to have to face, and primary among them is her selfishness in all of this. During this period she was NOT a good human being, a good W or a truthful one.

You know this, it is what you are struggling with. She knows it and it is what she is hiding from. She finally lived down to her expectations and realized that she did expect more from herself.

Those are my opinions on the matter, but the point here is to work on rebuilding the marriage, so while all of these things may be true, the issue is can each of you change things to make the marriage safe and nuturing for both of you.

I think you can see why Myrta is so negative and defensive now can't you? How would like to wake up each morning and realize that you did this to someone you love and have been involved with since you were 13? Not a pretty thing. So part of our goal is to get her over this as well.

What she does not see is that the best way to do this is to open up to you, you have seen the worst, but she won't admit it. If she were to change her approach to you, you will respond and help her. It is a feedback loop,and forgiveness within her own mind is actually something only you can give her.

Just some thoughts. You two work on the active hearing part OK. Baby steps will get you where you want to be and where I think she wants to be.

I do hope you see that each of you have hurdles to get over, and that each of you hurt but for different reasons.

Must go, but hang in there, and say hello to Myrta for me.

God Bless,

JL

Aussie2----sorry if I brought bad memories to you with my reference to the OM. It could be true what you say, that maybe we want to keep believing that there is something good in them. I mean, afterall we went to bed with them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . My husband has told me,many times before , that if he sees the OM in front of him, he will strike him, punch him, whatever!! My husband isnot a violent person at all. In fact, when we get into heated arguments, I get really crazy and he always tries to maintain his cool. I push him and taunt him, because I do get really angry!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
JUST LEARNING-- all your posts are so insightful and they really strike a cord in each of us. My husband reflects so much in everything you write. I do too, but I guess in a different way, since I was the evil one in the picture, the intake of your posts affects me differently.
You know, after reading my post and your responses, about the fact of me thinking that my husband is perfect.
Is not so much that I dont think he is sooooo much better than me. See, when I was growing up, I never had any positive feedback to any of my accomplishments, I was the youngest, and everyone took me for granted,(parents-sibblings). Then along comes Stanley into my life and eventually we get married, but I always thought...that I was undeserving of his attentionns. I always thought he could find a person more on his level of education. Through the years I have accomplish some things in my life that make me gain some confidence on myself, but within me there was always that seed in my mind of been not his equal.
In fact , a couple of days after DD, he called me on the phone, and told me that he could not stay married to me, and that he had been so dumb,marrying me, becausse he could had done so much better!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
That really got to me, because those were always my fears, and he was actually saying the words out loud!!!
My husband has always and will always be special to me. Like I said before, he made what I am today. He taught me how to be a woman, he taught how to drive, he taught me how to be a wife , a mother, gave me the reigns of our home. He will always have a special place in my heart that NOBODY has touched!!! Maybe during the affair, I was not the best wife to him, but I swear to everybody here, my intentions were not to hurt him. I thought he will never find out, and I would end this and NO HARM DONE. But, was I WRONG!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
LIKE You say JL, I still dont know how much damage I did here. But I am starting to find out, and it scares me, all the work that we have ahead of us. Will we be strong enough to get thru this??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Lately I have been depressed, confused, sad, etc,etc. I even think I am developing ulcers!!!! Because the guilt of what I have done is eating me up inside!!!
I hope that will the help from MARRIAGE BUILDERS,MY HUSBAND,AND GOD, we can get thru this, and see it as a bad chapter in our lives. As a nightmare, that never happened,but it did happened, and hopefully we will be better off than ever, and like you say, that we have learned valuable lessons!!
Thank you for your help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Myrta

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

JUST LEARNING!!!!
That was a nasty post you did there!! Did not like it one bit!!! I have always been the same woman. I was not this evil woman, that you are painting me to be. My husband was always in my mind, indeed, he was, but I THOUGHT I WAS NOT HURTING HIM AT THE TIME, because HE DID NOT KNOW!!! What you dont know, does not hurt!!! But of course I was in the nasty fog, and now I know better>>> I know I was hurting US, him more, by doing this to our marriage.
But maybe like You said, \
I LIVED DOWN TO MY EXPECTATIONS OF MYSELF!!!!
THIS IS WHO I AM!!!
MYRTA

Myrta -

Hey, glad to see you are still posting and hanging in here.

But I do have to disagree. This is not who you are. Your husband has painted us a picture of a young helpless girl who grew into a wonderful woman. A woman who is beautiful, tender, sexual, a fantastic mother and wife, a keeper of the home, with a good heart.

That is who you are.

During the affair you had a brief "other life". But don't let that period define you. That was an aberration.

I am getting tired trying to help your husband, even though I am the BS, and know how he is hurting. But I think he needs to stop bringing up the OM. It is clear you have made your choice.

I posted earlier today about checking out Pep's "what a woman needs" thread on general questions. He missed the whole point. He read what he wanted to read, and missed the rest.

The highlight of the thread was that a man is defined first through himself. He is not defined by his woman. That is a big mistake.

So anyway Myrta, if you get tired of all of the seriousness here, check out the Jelly post under general questions. It is nothing but fun and stupidity.

(((((((((((((((Stanley&Myrta)))))))))))))))))

JL---
I forgot something!
What do you mean I wont admit it???? O f course I admit that what I did was horrible!!!! There is nothing else to hide, he has seen my WORST at full force. I am not trying to hide anything, since there is NOTHING to hide anymore!!!!
And, yes, you are right saying that I wanted that so bad, I am not going to deny that. But it takes all the right "ingredients" for something like this to happen. It just not happened because I, MYRTA, decided it was going to happen. It happened because the OM was involved, I was involved and MY husband was involved!!!!
Dont you think???
By the way, I had seen some of your previous threads, and you seem to be the hardest with ME!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
How come???? Am I am the worst you have seen here"""???
I dont think so!!!
Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ September 27, 2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> YOu are so sweet, it breaks my heart!!! You, of all people, to be so nice and positive about us, trying to help us get thru this.
I thank you so much, saying all those nice things about me. I might not be all that, but I am not as bad as JL is saying there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It scares me, to see that written about ME. It makes me doubt myself more, makes me, not want to try anymore. Makes me give up my husband, becausse I am just such a bad, evil woman!!!
My husband says not to take things personally, but how can I not!!! They are for me, not for anyone else!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Yes, you are right about my husband reading what he wanted to read/ He always does that, he focuses only in the worst, and leaves everything else out!!!
That could be called a FLAW!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Writing you right now, has calmed my nerves.
Thank you again for your kindness!
Myrta

Myrta -

I am not being overly kind, just reflecting the words of your husband. I started out being on his side. I have posted to him for quite some time. But now I am firmly on your side.

You have made great progress, much more than the average WW. That speaks for itself. I have tried and tried to get Stanley to take a break, and not talk on and on about OM. But it does no good.

The two of you are bonded in a beautiful, even romantic relationship. But your husband does not see that. Yes, he is hurting. But I think he needs to look at the whole picture, about the wife and partner you have been to him.

It is almost like many years of being a good wife counts for nothing. You crossed the line and now he is not going to forget it.

Hi Myrta,

Well, as you can guess I have some responses for you and I hope that you will see things a bit differently when I am done. This will be long, and then I must head home. First, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, after reading my post and your responses, about the fact of me thinking that my husband is perfect.
Is not so much that I dont think he is sooooo much better than me. See, when I was growing up, I never had any positive feedback to any of my accomplishments, I was the youngest, and everyone took me for granted,(parents-sibblings). Then along comes Stanley into my life and eventually we get married, but I always thought...that I was undeserving of his attentionns. I always thought he could find a person more on his level of education. Through the years I have accomplish some things in my life that make me gain some confidence on myself, but within me there was always that seed in my mind of been not his equal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The answer was yes he always could have found someone more on his education level, but he did not need to. You suited him just fine. You were who and what he was looking for in his life. And you still are, that is the hard thing for him. Myrta, haven’t you figured this out yet. Your Husband needs you in his life badly, that is why he is acting like he is. He is torn. Part of him says “don’t put up with this disrespect and pain” and another part says “yes but as God is my witness I need this woman in my life sooo bad”. He is in conflict about this and that is why you see the roller coaster. He is looking for you to help him, and it is a subtle job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In fact , a couple of days after DD, he called me on the phone, and told me that he could not stay married to me, and that he had been so dumb,marrying me, becausse he could had done so much better!!!
That really got to me, because those were always my fears, and he was actually saying the words out loud!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure this hurt you to the core. And you need to face he could have done “better” by some measure or another, but the reality is Myrta you are the ONLY woman for him and he knows it. You need to stop and realize this, as much as he bounces around, and I will get to that matter in a minute, he loves ONLY you. The reality is HE could not and cannot do better, unless you prove to him that his darkest fears are right. Somehow I don’t think you will.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband has always and will always be special to me. Like I said before, he made what I am today. He taught me how to be a woman, he taught how to drive, he taught me how to be a wife , a mother, gave me the reigns of our home. He will always have a special place in my heart that NOBODY has touched!!! Maybe during the affair, I was not the best wife to him, but I swear to everybody here, my intentions were not to hurt him. I thought he will never find out, and I would end this and NO HARM DONE. But, was I WRONG!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, yes you know you were wrong, because you were already shutting him out in the bedroom before he found out. He did not have to find out to be harmed, and you knew you were shutting him out, so you knew he was being hurt. Whether you chose to acknowledge that or not, he was aware.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LIKE You say JL, I still dont know how much damage I did here. But I am starting to find out, and it scares me, all the work that we have ahead of us. Will we be strong enough to get thru this??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are both strong enough to do this, of that I have no doubt. But, the “work” doesn’t have to be “work” it just has to be honest and patient, and caring. Something you two should be doing for one another all along. Further, it will take addressing communications and I have an excellent example right in your post to me. &#61514;


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lately I have been depressed, confused, sad, etc,etc. I even think I am developing ulcers!!!! Because the guilt of what I have done is eating me up inside!!!
I hope that will the help from MARRIAGE BUILDERS,MY HUSBAND,AND GOD, we can get thru this, and see it as a bad chapter in our lives. As a nightmare, that never happened,but it did happened, and hopefully we will be better off than ever, and like you say, that we have learned valuable lessons!!
Thank you for your help </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are welcome, but I keep saying to you don’t defend yourself, and you will see the ulcer symptoms go away. You are nervous because you don’t trust Stanley, you are defending yourself, and that takes a huge toll. It is not that you are necessarily hiding anything, but you are not giving in a open sense. It is something you have to want to do. He will also have to recognize your limitations as well. But,you know what saying things about him like you just told me about him will help to reaffirm your view of him to him. He needs that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> JUST LEARNING!!!!
That was a nasty post you did there!! Did not like it one bit!!! I have always been the same woman. I was not this evil woman, that you are painting me to be. My husband was always in my mind, indeed, he was, but I THOUGHT I WAS NOT HURTING HIM AT THE TIME, because HE DID NOT KNOW!!! What you dont know, does not hurt!!! But of course I was in the nasty fog, and now I know better>>> I know I was hurting US, him more, by doing this to our marriage.
But maybe like You said, \
I LIVED DOWN TO MY EXPECTATIONS OF MYSELF!!!!
THIS IS WHO I AM!!!
MYRTA </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, calm down. The post was harsh but what you did not understand is that I was being HARD on Stanley NOT you. Here is a communications issue rearing it head. Yes now you KNOW, but then you did not and you were hurting him, and you were doing what you wanted to do. He has to accept that, he has to deal with it, and he has to process it, and it is very hard to do when it concerns someone you love a lot. It is part of the reason he is asking all of the questions Myrta. He is seeking to find out what he missed, what he failed out, what you were thinking. He has been blaming OM for most of this, but he knows and I just reaffirmed to him that it was YOUR choice to betray him. OM was not married to him and could care less about your H. Your OM just wanted you and he did not care who got hurt. You wanted OM and you convinced yourself that what your H did not know would not hurt him. You now know that was wrong.

You did live down, but that is NOT who you are NOW. That is the point your H is going to have to realize, hence my post to him. He has to face the reality of 2 years of betrayal, and that means facing you did this because you wanted to. Then he has to face that and understand that who you were is not who you are, nor does it define what is inside of you. You were a loving W for what 26 years, you were a lying cheating W for two years, and now…who are you? That is what he is struggling with, that is why he wants to you to open up (whatever that means to the both of you). He needs you to tell him that you realize and have learned many things and who you are and who you want to be is the W he had for 26 years. He needs to hear that this hurt you enough that you won’t consider it again. He needs to face himself, his fears, his pain, and work through this.

Myrta it is happening. But, do you see what he means by defensiveness. You thought I was addressing this toward you and being HARD on you, when it was your H I was getting the old 2x4 out for. &#61514; This is why I am trying to convince him and you to try the active listening thing. Because if you had come back and asked my what I really meant and explained what you thought I meant, we could have cleared this up. I hope what I am writing now will do that.

Finally you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I forgot something!
What do you mean I wont admit it???? O f course I admit that what I did was horrible!!!! There is nothing else to hide, he has seen my WORST at full force. I am not trying to hide anything, since there is NOTHING to hide anymore!!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are very likely right, but look at how you responded to my post to Stanley. It makes it seem that you have not faced exactly what you tell me here you have faced. It was horrible, you know it, so why defend? Instead just say “yes JL, or Yes Stanley, what you say is true, however, I see it now, and I want to make this marriage better.” That statement is true as far as I know isn’t Myrta? So if you said that to me or your H do you see how it could change the whole tone of your interaction with Stanley?? You have just turned a negative into a positive and it has NOT cost you a thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And, yes, you are right saying that I wanted that so bad, I am not going to deny that. But it takes all the right "ingredients" for something like this to happen. It just not happened because I, MYRTA, decided it was going to happen. It happened because the OM was involved, I was involved and MY husband was involved!!!!
Dont you think???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, with regard to the affair and the decision to have it Stanley go no vote, that is all on you and OM, although OM owed your H nothing and he delivered a lot of pain to him. If you are referring to the state of your marriage, yes he had a role, how big a role depends on how honest you were with him, but he acknowledges that he failed in several areas. So you see you do agree with me, but yet you “defended” in the other post. Do you see the problem, it confuses Stanley when you “defend” something you are really willing to admit to. But, more importantly you don’t give Stanley a chance to help you because when you defend, then guess what he does, he moves into defensive mode as well, and the argument, the LB’s are on. We are trying to get both of you to avoid those darned LB’s while still taking about some very pain full things.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By the way, I had seen some of your previous threads, and you seem to be the hardest with ME!!!!
How come???? Am I am the worst you have seen here"""???
I dont think so!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I am not hardest on you. You are not the worst here either. What you don’t seem to understand is I actually care for you and Stanley. It is like the old time football coaches, you KNEW you were in trouble when they quit yelling at you. You are assuming that I am posting to you because you are the worst, or I don’t like you. The reality is I see great hope for you, and some of my hardest post (as my last one to your H) are actually harder than the ones to you. This is your natural defensiveness coming out. Some of it is understandable, but here is something for you to consider. You will KNOW when you have addressed the defensiveness when the first thing that occurs to you when I post to you or when your H talks to you, is that I or he likes you and are trying to help, rather than thinking we are attacking you.

Frankly, Myrta, you can safely assume I only post to you, to help. I may get it wrong, I may miss the mark, but the goal is to HELP you and your H. If you start out with that assumption and then you read something that seems to be an attack on you, stop and ask yourself, if he is trying to help, how in the heck is this helping me? &#61514; Then ask me “how is this supposed to help. It sure doesn’t feel like it”, and I will tell you.

Do you see the subtle aspect of this, and the difference between assuming you are attacked and assuming you are not attacked. I strongly recommend that you start assuming that your H loves you, that your H is NOT trying to hurt you, in everything he says. If you are worried, ask him about what he said, why he said it, and what was the purpose? If he says he was attacking you, then ask the logical question “what am I supposed to learn from that?” and then let him answer.

Finally, you responded to “Believer” </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, you are right about my husband reading what he wanted to read/ He always does that, he focuses only in the worst, and leaves everything else out!!!
That could be called a FLAW!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, do I detect some defensiveness on the part of your H? “Focusing on the worst and leaving everything else out” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Now you see what he thinks he is facing as well. You two are more alike than you want to admit. Probably has to do with “how many years of marriage????” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Must go, good night, and think about what I said Myrta.

God Bless,

JL

Believer:

I think women deal with infidelity differently. I would say most women would be OK if the WH was home and made a promise to dump the OW. Then the rest would be easy to forget! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The thing about us men is that a part of our manhood is measured by having a partner that is faithful. OTOH women are not that way. BTW, I don’t define myself by having Myrta as a wife. My wife can verify that!

I have forgiven my wife and I have no evil thoughts against her. I love her as much as I ever did. I always thought this could happen. She did not have the best opportunities growing up and was fairly wild as a 13 year old. However as she approach 50 I thought the desire to be wild was left behind.

I was madly attracted to Myrta from the very beginning. I guess I did not want a "goody-two-shoes" GF and there were plenty of those around for me. I fell for Myrta and could never get her off my mind. She had something very special----- there is something about her that fits me to a T. In fact if I ever had to look for another mate it would probably be someone that is almost identical to Myrta in looks and everything else. She has my number and always did. I cannot fight that feeling.

The other thing we guys like to do is UNDERSTAND!

If I had been involved with another woman the way Myrta was involved with OM I would be a goner. If I had a two year relationship and gave my heart away like I would be history. I don't think I would even think about Myrta. What I am trying tom say is that I am programmed to be with one woman at a time and I must be in love to be with that woman. That is the way I am-------------- I am naturally monogamous. BTW, my son is exactly like me------------- monogamous by nature, not because of morality or religion--- that is the way he is!. Myrta is not that way----------- I think it takes work for her to remain monogamous. She did great until age 49 and some may say that was an achievement. If she really wanted she could have done this a dozen times.

The other huge issue is that I don’t want to sweep this under the rug. I don’t want to be dealing with the SOB OM 2-3 years from now. As per JL I would rather do whatever is needed to achieve marital nirvana with Myrta. If we just forget about it I will always have some resentment and at some point when the OM re-establishes communication (at some point the will) Myrta can tell him to take a hike in a much firmer way. Up until now she was trying to let him down easy and feeling guilty about dumping him. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

JustLearning= I just read the post that you adddressed to my husband again, I have read it like four times already. You said, that it wasnot directed to me, that it was "hard" for my husband. Hmm, it is about me!!! You are saying all the negative things about me. YOu are saying that I was this horrible,selfish person, that only thought about pleasure and no one else. That I did not care about my husband, and just wanted the OM,no matter what, or whom got hurt. That was not the case. Like I said before, I truly believed, that I was not hurting anyone. I did gave signals to my husband, but he chose to ignore them, or dismiss them. He used to take me for granted,BIG TIME, he never really listened to what I had to say, he will hear me, but not really listened!!! Now he is TOO aware of what I say, he reallly listens to me now. And everything I say,is so important to him.
JL and STANLEY...I know I did something horrible, and I was in a complete fog to realize that, but NOW, I am a a different person that wants to make this marriage the best ever!!!
Like BELIEVER said, my husband and I have a long history of togetherness,been married so long. Yes,maybe I did change to another person, an aberrarration ,like BELIEVER said, of myself. I have always been dedicated 100% to my husband. Even though I was never completely satisfied with the attention he was giving me. He kinda of took me for granted. Yes, he was a good husband, but he was ina kind of a passive behaviour with me. And I like passion, intense feelings, details,etc. For a long time I told him that, then I stopped saying it. But he knew what I wanted, but he chose to ignore it.
Then comes this other person, I start to talk to him, and he gives me all this attention, praising me left and right about everything, making me feel like I was the Queen of England! Of course, I liked it!! Who would not like that? Constant adoration and adulation. I am an insecure person, I admit it, and I need that, maybe more than your average woman. I dont deny it, or feel embarrass saying it. And it roots from my childhood, I think, since I was never acknowledge, praise, talk to,etc. I was almost ignored growing up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
I am not going to blame everything in my childhood, but I am sure it was one of the factors. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Just Learning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> I was meaning to ask you...If you were my husband; will YOU try to make our marriage work? will you forgive me? How do you think you will react and act? Just curiosity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Just Learning; even though I do get really angry at your posts sometimes, I LOVE reading what you have to say. You seem like a really righteous,interesting person. You wife is very lucky to have a person with such vast information ,advice and knowledge about human beings! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> How long have you been married? Kids?
Thanks for everything!
Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Myrta -

Glad you are still with us. Good morning. I think everyone here is very, very hopeful for your marriage.

Stanley -

You might get the book, "Torn Asunder" and read the chapter called "The Message of the Affair" with Myrta. I think you will be able to identify the message rather quickly.

Myrta do not take this as a recrimination. What I am saying here is old history that you confirmed to me. I want to get this out of the way and see if you can do as JL suggests. Don’t defend---- accept and move on. Forgive yourself as I have and not be defensive anymore.

JL said:

Stanley,
I am guessing but Let me say something that is very hard. This happened because Myrta wanted it to happen is my guess.

One of the emails I intercepted the night of discovery mentions how things got started. Myrta said (I am paraphrasing): “When I met you I liked what I saw. I flirted with you and got a positive response. Then everything moved forward and here we are------ This was meant to be”

Then the other night as we were watching Barbara Walters interview with the schoolteacher that had an affair with one of her students. Myrta excused the OM’s insistence in breaking up our marriage by saying that it has her who came on to the OM and then OM fell in love. From that point on his behavior was to be expected. In a sense she was defending the OM’s desire to break-up our marriage. She further stated that the OM was VERY reluctant to get involved with a married woman and that the OM even tried to cool things off before they got physical. At one point he did not call Myrta for a whole month.



He was NOT that smooth, she was willing and she wanted to. Ask Myrta, I believe that she will tell you that.

See above! However, Myrta insists OM was smooth!

Her betrayal was because she wanted something so bad that she was willing to risk anything, and hurting you was not even a concern.

The night of D-day when I finally got into Myrta’s email I only read 1-2 that were quite recent. I could tell there was an affair, but from the content it sounded like an Internet non-sexual affair. So I went up to Myrta and said to her:

“Myrta you have been distant and not loving with me for a long time. When we make love and it is not that often you seem so distant and uninterested.” She smiled at me and gave me a kiss with some passion. Something she had not done in a long time and simply went to sleep with not a care in the world. I then went back to the computer and found the old emails that confirmed the PA.


Pretty harsh isn't it? That is why Myrta is defending

It is brutal! In particular the actions taken to facilitate the encounters as well as the unabashed clear-cut manipulation from her part to get me out of the way so she could be alone at home during one of the trips of the OM to our town.


She knows what she did and she knows she did NOT care at all about what you would think. That is why her statements about loving you during the A are false. You were not on the radar screen.

This is indeed the root of it all and why I suffered so much. The betrayal is so complete and devastating. And this is done by the person that one loves and trusts.

Stanley, this seems to be rather normal, and it is why it is called the "fog" she could not see you only what she wanted. It is the part that is so painful about this, AND it is the part that the WS must ultimately face, address, and make amends for by altering their behavior and protecting you.
It will happen, but there are some harsh truths Myrta is going to have to face, and primary among them is her selfishness in all of this. During this period she was NOT a good human being, a good W or a truthful one.

Very hard for me to accept Myrta was not a good person. As a man I want to believe my wife is all-good. I have accepted all of this, but the whole thing must be digested and it is a slow process. I will never leave Myrta and I have forgiven her with all my heart, but I still have to live with this from day to day and it seems that you (JL) feels it is important to rehash this events so they don’t cause pain to Myrta and me.


You know this, it is what you are struggling with. She knows it and it is what she is hiding from. She finally lived down to her expectations and realized that she did expect more from herself.
Those are my opinions on the matter, but the point here is to work on rebuilding the marriage, so while all of these things may be true, the issue is can each of you change things to make the marriage safe and nurturing for both of you.

This is what I want. I want to look at her and not think of the monster that was in there.

I think you can see why Myrta is so negative and defensive now can't you? How would like to wake up each morning and realize that you did this to someone you love and have been involved with since you were 13? Not a pretty thing. So part of our goal is to get her over this as well.

I want this very badly!

What she does not see is that the best way to do this is to open up to you, you have seen the worst, but she won't admit it. If she were to change her approach to you, you will respond and help her. It is a feedback loop, and forgiveness within her own mind is actually something only you can give her.

Exactly!

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Myrta,

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning I was meaning to ask you...If you were my husband; will YOU try to make our marriage work? will you forgive me? How do you think you will react and act? Just curiosity! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, it would be my inclination to forgive you and make the marriage work. I only know what I read here, but that would be the direction I would want to go.

As to how I would react, that is so hard to say. Having been here for a long time, I see things much differently than I did when I was your age or even Stanley's age. I think I would be less angry than I would have earlier, because I have learned that anger is a secondary emotion, reflecting a primary one usually: pain, frustration, etc. I would be deeply hurt, and I can honestly say the biggest issue would be my self-confidence.

Here would be the quandary. If I view you as someone I loved and had been married to for a long time, and you did this, then the problem must be within me. Now I know the affair was YOUR choice, I know you did not worry about hurting me (you say because you thought I would never find out, I think it was because you weren't thinking about me). So how do I regain my balance? How do I not become clingy? How do I avoid backing off too far so as to not seem clingy? How do I know you are not saying things to me just to make me feel better, which makes you feel better? Is that a bad thing?

Do you see the confusion I would have? It is not about lack of love, or even forgiveness, it is about confusion, about the image of two conflicting woman embodied in one and I clearly don't know what to do. I would be looking for signs any signs that you really loved me and wanted me, but I would also have this awful feeling that I was not enough of a man for you. And that I can not detect the truth very well, because you clearly had me fooled for a long time.

It would be a struggle Myrta. It would be a struggle to regain my balance, my confidence, and therefore my trust. Oddly the trust issue would be as much internal as external. I would need to work on trusting you, but also myself. For right now I would feel very very defenseless. How do I defend myself when I love a woman and want to stay married to a woman, that deceived me so easily and what really scares me is that I don't trust that I can tell the when she is or is not deceiving me.

Those would be my answers to your question Myrta. I don't know that they help, but that is where I think I would be.


Have you read Stanley's latest post? Do you now see why I posted as I did? It is to get him to face some things, he needs to face. You argue that I mischaractorized some things, perhaps I did. But, I think your actions can be characterized as I said. You see your H has to face this, and get through it. Just as you can't really get away with shifting blame to Stanely or even the OM, he cannot get away from this by shifting blame to OM. He has to face that you chose these actions, and then he has to address why you did. He is part of the why, and clearly you are a big part.

Once that is faced, then the next thing for you two do, is decide what it will take to protect you from temptation, and him from you having another affair. In many ways this is like dieting, it is not about will power so much as it is not buying the darned cookies to begin with. So what you both have to decide is what actions can you take that are the marriage eqivilent (sp) to not buying the cookies, so that willpower is NOT the issue. If you are not tempted you don't need as much will power. If he is in a situation, ther supports him, he has less reason to hold on to anger, fear, pain, and it does not take willpower on his part.

Myrta, there are a lot of things you need to face as well. But, your H has some harsh ones to face and overcome. I think he will, his post in response to what I said suggest a very positive response. The reason for the facing of this, is that like nightmares, once you turn on the light, and you put a name to the images, they lose the ability to affect you. You two need to become a team, a well integrated team and that takes removing the barriers.

You have seen the worst in each other and yet you still love one another. Now put the light on, talk about this and put a name to the details, so that it removes the ability to affect you two.

Myrta, HELP Stanley. Stanley HELP Myrta. That is what this is all about, and that is why I am putting forth the harsh pictures. When you two can look at them and not go running off screaming, you will know you two have conquered this nightmare. That is my feeling anyway.

You two are doing well, really you are. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

You described my feelings and current state of mind with great accuracy. I really don’t know where I stand with Myrta. My life long self-confidence regarding her love for me is completely gone. I am now insecure about how she feels about me. Her behavior after D-day also made matters worse.

It is not a nice feeling and now I can see why folks who feel the way I do gravitate to an affair when they perceived they are not wanted. Insecurity drives one to seek someone who will show love for in a very intense manner.

BTW, in her very last email to the OM before D-day Myrta said:

“I think you will grow tired of me and one of these days you will dump me.”

I said Myrta! Do you really believe what you say? This OM is used to eat dog food all his life and now for the 1st time he is having Filet Mignon!

In any event now I find myself asking Myrta if she loves me. I never asked the question in the past--------- I always assumed she loved me! I have even wondered about the possibility of coming home one day to find Myrta with her bags packed to go live with the OM. I read the emails the attraction must have been VERY POWERFUL and it makes me envious.

Myrta’s sex drive is a little low again after it had recovered nicely. I think the low is related to the fact that she finally said goodbye to the OM. Kiwij had said true withdrawal starts with the final goodbye. A low sex drive makes me feel like crap because I know the sex drive was sky-high with the OM. It is not easy being a BH--- triggers everywhere.

JL------ At what point does one back-up from hashing out the circumstances of the affair? When there is no more pain or guilt by the WW. Is it a good idea to hammer these things when the WW maybe stressed out by having to deal with the inner working details of the affair? I know Myrta has grown a lot and now likes to take punishment from you. She even looks forward to your so-called nasty remarks. Obviously I don’t think they are nasty as they reflect my concerns.

I have one issue that I REALLY WANTED to explore and learn how it developed. IMO, this was the most incredible act of the affair and I cannot get it out of my mind. Should I post and let Myrta handle it here. It is unsavory and I rather not discuss it with her because we may get upset.

I lok forwward to myrta's post and your reply to her

Thanks JL

CIAO!

Stanley,

You recall the post I made to you yesterday or the other day? The one Myrta does NOT like much. Well, it was addressed to the issue you asked about.

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL------ At what point does one back-up from hashing out the circumstances of the affair? When there is no more pain or guilt by the WW. Is it a good idea to hammer these things when the WW maybe stressed out by having to deal with the inner working details of the affair? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, in my opinion it does not end with the pain or guilt goes away. It ends when YOU accept that this with all of its ugly details really happened. You continue to go back to what OM did or what Myrta said, as if you hope to somehow find this was all a bad dream.

It was not a dream and you have to accept that. You have to accept ALL of the ugly details you know, and some perhaps you don't know, as actually happening. Then YOU have to decide if you can survive this and remain married. You have made the later decision already, so it is coming time for you to ask yourself, what does more information profit me, my marriage or Myrta?

When you finally decide that "enough is enough" and you accept that she really did this, THEN the hashing out should stop.

What should begin at that point is discussion of the future. Remember I asked you what you learned from this, and you gave some very deep and good answers? It is time for you and Myrta to examine those answers together. She needs to answer the same questions. Then given your answers plus using the results of the Needs Questionaire, you two begin the process of rebuilding. Is the pain gone? No! Is her guilt/remorse gone? No! Is the trust back? No!

All of that will come back as you two work to reestablish your marriage, your love for one another, use the newly found sensitivity to your advantage. Learn to love again. It takes time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know Myrta has grown a lot and now likes to take punishment from you. She even looks forward to your so-called nasty remarks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">REALLY??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Myrta you kinky lady you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously I don’t think they are nasty as they reflect my concerns.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, they are blunt, and I am sure she considers them harsh. I have no quarrel with that. One thing you and Myrta need to realize is that the people on this board can say things, that while true, would really really hurt if the spouse said them. In a way we are a proxy for you and Myrta. It means that you can sit and discuss what that "idiot" JL just said about us. It puts you two on the same side of the table, and that is JUST AS IT SHOULD BE.

I think one thing that often does come out of this sort of thing is a new sensitivity. You are more aware and sensitive to Myrta and what she does. I am guessing her, but I suspect she was not as sensitive to your feelings because of the pedestal issue. But, it is my hope that she will come to see you in a new light and with that new light she will see a role for herself that she may not have had before: being sensitive to you and your moods and feelings. I don't mean you get to mope around and play "woe is me", but a deeper level of sensitivity will lead to deeper interactions and communications.

Must go, but I do look forward to Myrta's return.

God Bless,

JL

JUSTLEARNING <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
yOU said it!!! When my husband accepts,really accepts that I did this, we will ,he will, start the rebuilding of our marriage. See, he already knows most of the details of the affair, but yet he wants more. Why more? What good is that going to make to him? I dont think any!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
But yet, the more I tell him, the more he wants. He even makes stuff about the affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Thank you for answering,if you were MY husband! But, <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> you did not answered all the questions.
Something else you said, is very true here. Now I see my husband differently, he is showing me so much his feellings, like never before. Before I even accused him, of being cold, detached, and he knows he was like that, it runs in his family. His mom is kinda of cold. But my family and I are really passionate people that show whatever they are feeling@@! Now he is so passionate, he shows himself as being so sexual,angry,sad,everything at once, and I like that. And it is true, he was sooooooooooooooo sure of my love for him, that never bothered to ask me if I love him. ON the other hand, I was always asking him!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
So, I see him more like me now, more eye to eye. Especially when I put high heels and get to be 6 feet like him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Is a joke!!!! But I am tall, yes!
JL.....I do look forward to reading your posts, since they are so good, and accurate, even when they are mean, and harsh and make me cry!!
You are our HERO!!!
tHANKS
MYRTA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
P.S. Thank you for saying that you will try to
save "our marriage". It is good to hear
that
from you! I am sure my husband liked your
retoric answers!!!

<small>[ September 28, 2004, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

JL -

From a cruel person, to a hero in two weeks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Please give up physics and take up counseling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Myrta - Hang in there, you are doing just fine.

So how do I regain my balance? How do I not become clingy? How do I avoid backing off too far so as to not seem clingy?

Balance, balance, balance---- ah so simple and yet so hard to achieve. Balance is a natural phenomenon as instability is almost always transient. I know Myrta wants me to be balanced. She probably misses the fact that I don't play that much golf again or pay attention to other things that were close to my heart. These days my only interest is Myrta and how to put the affair behind. I am convinced affairs change the brain chemistry to BHs. I feel if thou I was addicted to Myrta. I try to back off, but it is not natural, it is awkward. I miss a normal relationship with no awkwardness and no worries. I miss the old days of feeling 100% secure Myrta's love.


How do I know you are not saying things to me just to make me feel better, which makes you feel better? Is that a bad thing?
Do you see the confusion I would have?

I deal with this everyday. With every word I hear from Myrta I wonder if she is sugar coating everything to make me feel good. I remember when she initially admitted the affair. How she said that the sex was getting boring towards the end (no orgasms) and that they only saw each other every 2-3 months. Then I remembered the emails and noted a completely different flavor. I kept asking and then she admitted it was more like every 2-3 weeks for 3-4 days at a time and that the sex was very explosive. Their record was 4 times in one meeting. Somehow that day Myrta decided to be frank and honest.

I remember how she sent me packing to see my mom because


I had taken vacation the week before Xmas and it turns out the OM was coming to town that week. After D-day I remembered the incident and got suspicious. Myrta then said the OM got sick that week and could not make it. I think Myrta said that to ease my pain. I wonder if it was the OM's idea that I should go out of town that week to visit my mother. This stuff is painful, but I always wanted to know all the details and the inner workings of this transaction.


It is not about lack of love, or even forgiveness, it is about confusion, about the image of two conflicting woman embodied in one and I clearly don't know what to do.

Oh yeah, I went thru that stage and I was in mourning for a long time, no doubt. I thought the Myrta I knew was gone forever. However, this is much better and I have accepted the new Myrta quite well. IIt is amazing to watch your wife and realize you don't know her. Of course this was reinforced in the email Myrta wrote the OM where she talks about the Myrta I have never seen. It is as though Myrta was giving the OM and exclusive Myrta. SOmething available only to him and not me. That is exactly what it is. In his own way the OM was looking to be special. I am almost certain he wanted to do sexual things to Myrta that I had never done. Myrta say he did not. Maybe Myrta is trying to make me feel special again.

I would be looking for signs any signs that you really loved me and wanted me, but I would also have this awful feeling that I was not enough of a man for you.

You bet, this one is awful. Particularly when you know the sex was so explosive and not boring and dull.

However, there is one redeeming thing about this whole thing. It has to do with a physical trait of the OM. Sometimes God is so merciful! It probably makes no difference to women------ it is probably meaningless , but it helped my very low self-esteem. I will not go into more details.


And that I can not detect the truth very well, because you clearly had me fooled for a long time.

That is correct. Particularly when one reads about false recoveries and spouses who keep seeing the OP while in counseling and professing to be working on the marriage.


It would be a struggle Myrta. It would be a struggle to regain my balance, my confidence, and therefore my trust. Oddly the trust issue would be as much internal as external. I would need to work on trusting you, but also myself. For right now I would feel very very defenseless. How do I defend myself when I love a woman and want to stay married to a woman, that deceived me so easily and what really scares me is that I don't trust that I can tell the when she is or is not deceiving me.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!! That says it all!


Those would be my answers to your question Myrta. I don't know that they help, but that is where I think I would be.

Ditto!

Stanley-
I will see if my H will come
back on board & post to you-I think
it would do him good too.

Myrta-
I too have felt my H has the "perfection"
complex. I tried to appreciate it- but
have never really accepted it. He always
wants to please me- "where do you want
to eat,go, see, etc.?" he has never made
a spontaneous move in his life-
so guess what I am like? guess what OM
was like?
I have been married almost 27 years-
since I was 17-
never was unfaithful-
I was not well emotionally for a while,
past 2 years or so-
I didnt really know that til OM. I was
a not me-different.
Now, I am going to school & writing &
making myself happy, without making H
responsible for my happiness.
to spend time together, H & I
have started golfing-we love it!
we talk on & off about A-& try to be
open about our emotions.
when making love the other night,
afterwards he revealed to me that
OM still gets in his thoughts-of
he & I together- & I admitted I
have the same thoughts at times-but
I told him it is less & less now.
Our road has just began I know-
same as you & H-but I am so grateful
to God to be where I am now. I am
back to me (with the help of
medication!)
please know that people are praying
for you & H & family-
stay in touch-I know I am not on
much-but I want to help-pal