I just discovered more information... What would you do?

I just read a message from my wife to a friend on a public
forum she does not know I know about.

She admitted the following to the friend

she does not like being married to me.
She does not love me, at least not in the way I deserve to be loved.
We have two wonderful children and she was the product of a divorced
family and she does not want that for her children.

She said I discovered some of her affairs (I know of 5)
and that she thinks it will be impossible to be monogamous
to me.

She can not afford to get divorced and she is not sure that is
the right answer.

She feels we never should have gotten married and she
never wanted to have kids. (we married after she became
pregnant with our second child)

She thinks I am playing a Martyr by being so nice to her and
it makes her sick. She admits there have been really good times
but the last few years have been hell (On this I agree)

She wants to try to work on it but she does not know how
she can learn to love someone she has not loved in years.

-------------------

I am not surprised that she doesn't love me and I think in time
she could learn to love me again.

The things I have problem with are the fact I know about
(some) of the affairs and that she thinks it would be
impossible to be monogamous to me. I will not forgive any
affairs going forward.

My trying so hard to save our marriage makes her (SICK).
What does she want me to do? beat her?

I love our kids and I too want to keep the family complete
but I really have to wonder if it worth it.

She does not love me. She does not want to be monogamous.
She does not want to met my needs.

I have tried to be more affectionate but I could tell
she was just going through the motions. Now I know why.

To my face she is putting on a pretty good show. In private
she is not so loving. She writes "he's sucking the life out of
me, Leech"

I am really torn knowing what I know, between trying to make
the effort and just cutting my loses and moving on.

"I can't make her love me if she don't"

She says she is committed to working on us and to her credit
she is trying but at the same time I found out she sent
an IM to her last EA reestablishing contact after a month.

I can't confront her on what I know or she would know I am
still spying on her. Maybe it is just a test but it pretty
much matches the feeling a get when I am around her. She is
acting pretty strangely now. Almost too happy, kinda like
she is drunk.

I now realize that the affairs were less about the problems
in our marriage and more about her wanting different partners.
I see this as show stopper. She can not have it both ways
unless we agree to have a open marriage. I am not prepared to
agree to that at this time. My fear is that is what it will
come down to it for us to stay together.

I am still young and handsome. I know for a fact that I could
easily find someone else that wants to be with me and only
me. Why should I waste anymore time on her when she doesn't
even like being with me.

I know the only thing that can save our marriage is
professional counseling but she refuses to go. I think she
doesn't want to face that fact she is sex addict.

Part of me wants to give it a try but the majority of me
wants to say it is over and call the lawyer. She is right
about not being about to afford it but I know I can get
help from my family if need be.

Knowing she has had one PA that lasted 10 years and
4 other affairs this year (that I know of)
Knowing that she does not love me and is only staying with
me for the children
Knowing that she does not think she can be monogamous and is
treating me differently to my face.

If you were in this situation, what would you do?

Mad as hell

Oh my - I feel so bad for you - last time your post was very up...You thought you were getting through to her and now this...She betrayed you again..I know your heartache..

See my post under GQII - regarding serial cheaters - I'm trying to make sense of non-sense..too.

I don't have any suggestions I just wanted to send HUGS your way....

I know. Thought we were making good progress
but is clear she was putting on a good show
for the sake fo the kids. I really don't trust
anything she says now.

I have contacted the lawyer. I am begining
to plan for the fact that Divorce may be the only
option.

I want to know my options including seperation
and how it would effect child custody. I would
want to fight for custody given her problem
and the fact that I have always been the primary
care taker.

I want to know the expected cost so I can start
saving and start looking for housing for myself
and the children.

Once I know exactly what my options are, I plan
to give her one last chance to get counseling
or hand her the divorce papers.

It is clear that no matter how loving or supporting I am, she has issues I can never address.

Maybe a counselor chould help her to see what she
is doing but I think she does not want to be
accountable.

She wants it both ways. I am about to make
that choice for her.

It is true that I want to be with her despite
everything. But I won't stay in this marriage
just for the children. If she does not want to be
with me, I would rather part under good terms
before I lose my love for her and this turns
nasty.

I will continue to be nice until my lawyer
tells me how to protect my interests. This
is no longer about her. It is about protecting myself.

ITHURTS, I truely appreciate your efforts and I
am sorry it has come down to this.

Joker,

I think your assessment of the situation is correct. You cannot fix this and her problems are really beyond what the methods in this site are designed to address. If you can find a CoffeeMan post look up his story. His ExW has similar problems and only addressed them AFTER their divorce. He has since remarried and is very happy. His first W is very very remorseful now and knows what she lost, but there was nothing he could do. She had to hit bottom and that meant losing him and the children.

Go to the lawyer and prepare yourself. You have done what you can do until and unless she will seek help for her issues.

God Bless,

JL

I have come to face that it does it matter anymore. I no longer want to try and fix this.

I am intent on starting dicussions of the
divorce with my lawyer. I will do what he
tells me to and I will try to remain civil.

I do love my w and she will always be the mother
of my children. Knowing everything I know
and how she continues to be dishonest with me
about her feelings I can not continue trying to
forgive her. I know enough to divorce her
several times over.

I have tried to be loving. I have tried to be
affectionate. She considers me holier then thou
and a martyer.

It is time I let out all the anger I have
withheld. There is nothing left for me to save
because I can see a future with her will only
bring more pain.

I love our kids but I do not need to be married
to her to do that. I know my life is about to be
turned upside down but I did not cause this.

She is about to learn first hand the cost of
her actions. Maybe that will be enough for her
to seek help in the future.

For me, I am done. I will start discussing the
details of the divorce tommorrow, hopefully

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am been praying for a long time to be shown what to do about my marriage.
Who is answering the prayer now, God or the Devil? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Joker, I understand your pain and anger. I also agree that you probably need to contact an attorney for your protection and the protection of the children in the event that your wife will not repent and follow God.

However, I assume you are a born-again believer from what you wrote in your quotation above. If this is the case, then now, while you reacting in anger is not the time to be making definitive, life-changing, decisions.

If your wife is a believer, then it is high time that you both face the reality that you need to be obedient to God's commands, especially when you don't feel like it. "Not loving you" is NOT an excuse to end the marriage. Adultery is a legitimate reason, but divorce should be the last resort. Neither of you has even tried to save your marriage. You've both simply been letting your emotions control you.

Now is the time that you both need to make a commitment to humbly obey God no matter what you are feeling.

As part of this, Joint Christian Marriage Counseling is a requirement, not just a suggestion of something to "try." Stumbling and bumbling around has brought you both to this point and now, it is time to bury the pride and give control of your marriage to God.

There is much going on in your marriage that we don't know, probably that neither of you really recognizes either. You need a trained counselor who is committed to saving marriages and to helping you both to learn to be obedient to God out of love for what Christ has done for you.

Remember, all an attorney will do, all his focus is on, is on ENDING your marriage. Not saving it. It is easy to let your anger and emotions take control. But God's intent for your marriage is to have one based in love for each other and God stands ready to provide you both with all the means and resources necessary to build just that sort of marriage.

God is waiting. Will you turn to Him or to Man for help with your situation?

God bless.

Oh my W is a GOOD little lutheran girl. She makes
a big deal out of going to chruch every Sunday.

She even teaches the high school age bible class.

I think that is what bothers me the most. She
claims to be religous but has no regard for the
ten commandments.

It is enough to turn me off organized religion.

The problem with absolution is there is
NO accoutablity for your actions.

All you have to say is you are a sinner and
in Jesus name forgive me. Then you just turn
around and do it again.

In a lot of ways my W is like out youngest son.
When he does something wrong and gets put
into timeout, he pleads teary-eyed to please
give him another chance. The second you
let him out of timeout, he goes right back to
doing what he was doing and the process starts
all over.

I know I am called to forgive but when I did
I was accused by her of being "holier then thou".
When I tried to accept some of the blame
she thought I was playing a Martyr and it made
her feel sick.

I now realize that most of the problems in our
marriage had little to do with me. She just
can't bring herself to be monogamous and I don't
want to come down this road again.

I will always love her and she will always be
the mother of my children but I can not be
her husband anymore. Maybe in time she would
see the error of her ways but right now
she has not even appolgized or shown any remorse.

It was all in the past she says and I only hurt
myself by finding out the truth. I have
told her what I need from this marriage and
she is either unable or unwilling to try to meet
them.

She lets me be affectionate to her but I get
little in return. I deserve more then this.

I know someday she will realize what she lost.
Every action has its costs. Her actions and her
continued deciet have cost her the last 10 years
of our lives together. It will cost our childern
not having their parents together under one roof.

Maybe someday she will find someone she can
be monogamous with. Right now she does not want
to be with me at all. I can not and will not
accept that. It is time to face the fact that
the last ten years have been an illusion and I am
married to a stranger. I could build a new
relationship with her and maybe she would
fall in love with me again, but I choose not to
let her hurt me anymore. In time I will find
love again and my love will not be wasted on her.

<small>[ September 14, 2004, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: joker ]</small>

1st D-Day 7-30-2004 Discovered an EA
current D-Day Aug-27-2004 Discovered evidence of PA
Sept 9, 2004 W revealed affair
lasted on and off for 10 Years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my W is a GOOD little lutheran girl. She makes
a big deal out of going to chruch every Sunday.

She even teaches the high school age bible class.

I think that is what bothers me the most. She
claims to be religous but has no regard for the
ten commandments.

It is enough to turn me off organized religion.

The problem with absolution is there is
NO accoutablity for your actions.

All you have to say is you are a sinner and
in Jesus name forgive me. Then you just turn
around and do it again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">John - Your anger and resentment are understandable. I'll even concede that your marriage may not be salvageable if your wife will not truly repent and turn to God. But I'm also going to look at your "signature line", in italics at the beginning of this post.

John, I'm going to assume, unless you tell me differently, that you actually DO love your wife. Yes, you "hate" her actions, the lies and deceit, but you love the woman who is buried beneath the sin.

All of this has come crashing down upon you in the past month and a half. I, along with many others here, KNOW what you are going through and the jumble of thoughts running through your mind. The "hopeless" feeling. The "not worth the fight" feeling. The "resentment", the "throw in the towel" and start new with "someone else who would respect and love you" feeling.

Having discovered my wife's 6 year long affair and her plans to divorce me and marry the OM, I KNOW how angry you are with God and how distrustful you are of everything. To say that this is a "dark time" is a gross understatement.

And that is precisely my point. Now, more than ever, more than at any other time, YOU have to listen to God despite all that you are feeling. Now is NOT the time to tell God to "take a back" seat and "leave the driving to me." Now is the time, no matter how hard it seems or how "impossible" the future seems, that you must simply obey God's commands. You have to take His offered hand to lead you through this dark "valley of the shadow of death." His rod and His staff WILL comfort you and lead you out of the valley.

That is, if YOU have accepted Jesus Christ as YOUR personal Lord and Savior. Right now, this is not about your wife and her actions and the status of her faith. This is about YOUR faith and WHO will be "Lord of your life."

No, it is NOT easy. You DO have all your emotions. God understands and knows exactly what you are feeling because He felt them all. Christ was in exactly the same position you are in, betrayed and rejected repeatedly by those He loved. He was so tormented by the emotional pain that He sought "relief" from the Father. Yet, even staggering under the weight and pain of it all, He "surrendered" His "right" and His "will" to the Father's will, knowing that the Father had one simple requirement....humbly obey His will and commands no matter what we are feeling.

John, God the Father has forgiven YOU of ALL of your sins. You know that. Think on the enormity of that simple fact. Think about what it COST Christ "while we were yet sinners, lost in our adultery and betrayal of Him."

It is time to take your pain and anguish, even your "righteous anger," to God and seek His direction.

A month and half post discovery is NOT the time to be making a far reaching decision like divorce. It is time for you, as hard as I personally know that it is to do, to BE the spiritual head of your household and to STAND on God's commands.

It is time for professional intervention in the form of a trained counselor in Christian Marriage Counseling. It is time to fight the attacks of Satan, not to "throw in the towel" and surrender without a fight. "Resist the devil and he will flee from you" is the thought pattern that you need to hold onto while your emotions are raging in so many directions. "Be angry (righteous anger about sin against a Holy God) but in your anger do not also sin."

Yes, your wife's adultery IS a sin against you. But it is first and foremost a sin against God.

I am wondering who, if anyone, at your church knows about her adultery? Have you even looked at Matthew 18:15-20 for HOW we are to approach discipline for a believer caught up in the blinding snares of sin?

Besides wanting "out" (a very normal initial reaction following discovery) what have you DONE to confront your wife in a loving, biblical, manner to help her to realize her sin and to repent?

Adultery is a "refining fire" for a lot of us. It HURTS. The pain is INTENSE. It is important to understand while all this is going on that God can use ALL of the circumstances of our lives to mold and shape us and to work for "good" in our lives. That "good" is to reach us and teach us to rely on God and to walk in an increasingly "Christ-like" manner in our lives.

God WILL NOT allow you to suffer more than you can bear. But that is not the same thing as saying that there will be no suffering. While the times are dark and it seems like there can be no light that can penetrate the darkness, God gives you the promise of HIS strength to bear you up and "get you through" the darkest of valleys. "I can do everything through him (Christ) who gives me strength." (Philippians 4:13, NIV)

"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, ans as you sing psalms, hymns ans spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." (Colossians 3:12-17, NIV)

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church - for we are members of his body.
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and shall be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you must also love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." (Ephesians 5:22-33, NIV)

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind." (James 1:2-6, NIV)

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20, NIV)

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." (1John 2:1-6, NIV)

"He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Rev.21: 6-8, NIV)

...and such WERE some of you.

((((John))))

God bless and comfort you during this dark valley and grant you His wisdom for the days to come.

joker

can't argue against what you found and what you feel, however, I would caution you to consider what you are reading to what may be a very fogged serial cheater.

As I understand it the serial cheater does not obsess on just one om but on a number of om's sometimes at the same time. It seems to be the excitement of the affair itself that is attractive, to be in control.
Therefore I wonder if her comments on the other site can be taken only at face value.

But if she will not go to professional counselling and MC as well, then its hard to see theres any hope as you say.

Perhaps a more experienced MB'e here can put you in touch with soemone who has had similar experiences, I think Cerri who posts her may know some who have been in your sit.

cerri posts here too so ask away.

Whatever you decide, I hope it will work out for you & the kids.

Joker - I have many of the same feelings that you have..I've felt many times ready to throw in the towel, file for D, and start a new life. I get sooo frustrated with my WH lies, days of being nice, then being a jerk again. My therapist tells me its like a dance, I go towards him, he pulls away, I pull away he comes towards me..Funny, the WS never sees this side of how they are acting. I swear my WH doesn't "want" me but he doesn't want anyone else to have me either.

The only thing that has stopped me from filing for a D is that I LOVE this Man..Deep inside me - I still love him and for some reason I can't stop.
Does he love me??? I don't know. Is he in the "fog" maybe - I too know that I have lived 10 M years of lies - my WH is a serial cheat he just doesn't see it that way. He feels entitled to OW..married or not..I always felt insure with him because of "little lies" - upon getting the nerve to really check on him - I have uncovered many women (all at the same time) and it sickens me..It scares me that I have only scratched on the surface of what he's been doing..It would be one thing for me to compete with one women - but, I can't be 5 or 100 different women. There is no way for me to "win" this battle.

My WH has admitted that he "has a problem", he needs, help and that it was never about me, but for some sick reason he cannot stop. He says he'll go to theraphy but then won't go. I don't think he wants to change, why should he give up all these women for one women??? I'm not worth the effort to him. His name in the community is not worth it nor the financial end of losing all that he has worked for for 30+ years - it is easy to let "us" go than to work on changing himself.

Maybe it's fear - maybe your wife is afraid to try and change - it's an addiction no easier to stop than a drug.

Your right, your wife is like a child - when caught she's sorry then when the heat is off she forgets all about it.

But again, I understand all your feelings, don't jump into the D - until you are ready, mentally and financially. Think about YOU, try to tune out your emotions for awhile, stay calm and go about your day.

I've said I'm done a thousand times now and yet it's still not over. Yes, you deserve better and deserved to be loved, we all do.

Will the WS ever look back and realize what they lost?? Probably not, if they are a true incurable serial cheat - they don't look back - they are always looking for their "next good time". I believe the Harley system can/does work for those that are remorseful and realize their mistakes - for those that refuse accountabilty for thier actions it can't work. They don't feel our pain for what they put us thru, they even refuse accountability for that...

HUGS...Sit tight...your just really mad right now and you have the right to be mad..

Joker: have you read "Survivng an Affair"? My wife did not love me and neither of us knew why, nor did we know how to change our marriage for the better in the ways that needed to change... until we read it. It will show you what you and your wife will need to do so that she is in love with you. That will go long way toward making monogamy more attractive to her.

However, that is not the whole story. The Other book to read is "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken. Read the "Double Life Man" chapter. That kind of affair is very rare for women (hence the name), but your wife sounds like a classic case. To summarize the most critical issue about people in DLM affairs: it is about them and their sexual history, not you or your relationship. Without a deep spiritual and emotional change, they are unlikely to be able to become faithful partners.

So, the bottom line is: recovery may be possible, if it is possible it will be terribly difficult for both of you, but especially her, and you won't know unless you try. It may very well save your wife's life, if you succeed.

As for Lutheranism: it is perfectly possible to be a Lutheran and not be a Christian. I was for years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ITHURTS:
<strong> But again, I understand all your feelings, don't jump into the D - until you are ready, mentally and financially. Think about YOU, try to tune out your emotions for awhile, stay calm and go about your day.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not jumping into a D. I am simply planning
for it. I am the primary care giver for our children and do
not want to do anything to hurt my chances for getting
primary custody. I realize it is hard for the father to win
that but I have tons of witnesses to the fact that I do most of
the childcare. I do not want to seperate them from there
mother but they will interfere with her lifestyle. She is
not very paitent with them and relies on my to get them up,
dress them, feed them, take them to school, pick them up,
feed them, bath them and put them back to bed

She tends to sleep in until the exact moment she needs to
get up and get ready to leave.

I just want to know my rights and what the courts expect of
my in terms of housing and child support. Also things like
changing banks and getting my own health coverage.

My plan is to get everything lined up and organized before I
make the FINAL choice.

I can tell you that if she still refuses to get help for her
addiction and agree to MC. I will divorce her.

I realize she may be just suffering from withdrawl right now
and I do love her but I am not sure I could take any more
unfaithfulness.

I have watched as almost every memory of us from the last 10
years be corrupted by events I have discovered to the point
I don't even know what was real anymore.

Right now my kids lives are the only reason I would try to
go on. I don't want them to have to visit their parents. But
at the same time, they are very bright and they know things
are not right between us. My oldest son has found me crying
on several occasions and asked my why mommy was so mean to
me. He often askes my why she doesn't want to have
breakfast with him or take him to school.

My W can be summed up in her FAVORITE t-shirt which reads
simply "It's All About ME!"

It was hard for me to hide my anger from her last night. She
could tell I was "in a funk" and asked me why. I could not
bring myself to tell her. I knew if I did all of the anger
and hatred would come spewing out of me like a man possessed.

She tried to console me but I found her kisses and touches
awkward and bordering on revolting. I got up at 4:00am
this morning because I could not face the phatoms of the
past and future in my head. She kissed me this morning like
we have done every day for weeks but I nearly lost it.
I had to turn away quickly before she saw my tears but I am
sure she saw some of them.

I also made an excuse not to come home for lunch like normal.
I just can bear to be around her right now. I am really thinking
about going to the gym after supper tonight just to get out
of the house. I know she will wonder about my sudden change
in behavior but I am sure that right if I don't maintain
a distance I will say something I will regret later.

I have tried forgiving her. I have tried being loving and
affectionate. I have even tried taking the blame for her actions.
Now I feel the need to be emotionally distant. Part of wonders
if she will make the effort to close the gap.

I am on one heck of an emotional rollercoster and just like
all "real rollercosters" this one is making me sick to my
stomack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong>
John, I'm going to assume, unless you tell me differently,
that you actually DO love your wife. Yes, you "hate" her
actions, the lies and deceit, but you love the woman who is
buried beneath the sin.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DO love her or I would NOT still be here.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ForeverHers:
<strong>

I am wondering who, if anyone, at your church knows about
her adultery? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that some of her girl friends know (one of whom
she had a lesiban affair with)

I want to talk to pastor about all of this but I am affaid
he would not respect my wishes and tell her about it.

We go to a very small church and our children go to school
there. I am afraid talking to him would out the affairs to
everyone and change the way Pastor and the other treat my
wife and me. They are all fooled into thinking she is
some great lutheran girl and sunday school teacher.

She is teaching high school aged kids about the difference
in religons around the world. I thank maybe she should
talk to them about something she really knows like Adultery
(oh wait.... that was mean).

Should I talk to our pastor or should I seek our a pastor
at another church?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong> Joker: have you read "Survivng an Affair"? My wife did not love me and neither of us knew why, nor did we know how to change our marriage for the better in the ways that needed to change... until we read it. It will show you what you and your wife will need to do so that she is in love with you. That will go long way toward making monogamy more attractive to her.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been reading "Survivng an Affair"?

The title of the book really P*ssed of my W.
She thinks I am stupid for reading books like
that and Dr Phil. She will have nothing to do with it.

Joker,

You have been getting some very good advice here. I hope you do go see a lawyer soon. But I would also like to encourage you to do something else. Communicate to your W what you know. You pulling away from here accomplishes what?? Nothing as near as I can tell. I know you are protecting yourself, but it is only temporary as you well know.

I think she needs to know what you know. Perhaps you should write it all down and give her your written narration of what you know has happened.

You could then explain about your quandary, and why counseling seems to be needed. She is avoiding counseling because she knows this stuff will have to come out. If it is really already out (you know it), then perhaps she will join you or seek IC.

You will solve nothing if you are not "honest" with her. She needs it from you as much as you need it from her. I think I would check with the lawyer first, but get this thing sorted out.

Clearly the best way to do it is to sit down and calmly lay out what you know. Calmly lay out what you expect from a marriage and a spouse. Calmly, ask her if it is possible for your marriage to be like that. If so what do you both need to do to make it happen. I think that this is where the discussion of counseling should come in.

You clearly have the right to leave this marriage. And I do think you are right that her issues are deep and not really related to you or how your marriage has gone. THus good counseling is required. But, FH's story is very compelling with regard to your situation and he is right to challenge your faith for that is what it is going to take for this to work out.

Please heed FH's and Aussie's advice.

God Bless,

JL

I just called Lutheran Family Services to
set up a meeting with a marriage counselor.

I am not sure if I will be about to get
my W to go, but I am at least going to give it
a try.

I am still waiting to be assigned a lawyer
and I do plan to explore what will be needed
to protect my interests in terms of a
divorce. I do not want one and am willing to fight. but I can't do it all on my own anymore

You are right. I need to tell my W everything
but I have trying to wait until the angry
green-eyed giant is not in control of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> Joker,

You will solve nothing if you are not "honest" with her.
She needs it from you as much as you need it from her. I
think I would check with the lawyer first, but get this
thing sorted out.

Clearly the best way to do it is to sit down and calmly lay
out what you know. Calmly lay out what you expect from a
marriage and a spouse. Calmly, ask her if it is possible
for your marriage to be like that. If so what do you both
need to do to make it happen. I think that this is where
the discussion of counseling should come in.


</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL,

My W called me at lunch time to check how I was doing.
She was still concerned I would not talk to her yesterday.

You are right, It is time to be honest with her. I took
some time to write down all my thoughts and organize them.
I tried not to be to mean but I did discuss my true
concerns for continuing our marriage if she will
not agree to got to counseling with me. I did tell
her that I already made an appointment.

I did tell her what I need from this marriage and asked
her to honestly think if she can meet those needs.

I am not sure how she will react to the letter. I guess the
worse case, we get a divorce. The best case, she seeks
treatment and there is a small hope this marriage can
survive.

The marriage is on life support now, She will get to decide
whether or not to pull the plug.

The Lord's will be done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She feels we never should have gotten married and she never wanted to have kids. (we married after she became pregnant with our second child)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Typcial "fogtalk". "Rationalization" and "justification" for doing what she KNOWS is wrong. i.e., "it wouldn't be adultery IF we weren't married." Maybe, maybe not. But it WOULD be, at a minimum, fornication and disobedience to God's commands...in short...willful SIN.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She thinks I am playing a Martyr by being so nice to her and it makes her sick. She admits there have been really good times but the last few years have been hell (On this I agree)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she takes this stance because it much easier to "justify" cheating on a jerk than it is a "nice guy." But I am intriqued by your agreement with her statement regarding the "last few years." Implicit in that agreement seems to be an admission that YOU were not fulfilling your God-given role as husband. Just how DO you see your "part" in the "last few years?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wants to try to work on it but she does not know how she can learn to love someone she has not loved in years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ahhh....the question of all Wayward Spouses who simultaneously "justify" their sin and "care for" their betrayed spouse. The answer to "how she can learn to love someone she has not loved in years" is really quite simple. You begin by being OBEDIENT to God and you begin by obeying God's command to GIVE, not to receive. If you want to know more about this, and she should read it too, I can email you a pamphlet entitled What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour? that our MC gave us the first day we met with him. It directly addresses this issue of how to love, as well as the issue of how to forgive. It was an invaluable starting point for my wife and I.

My email address, if you want that pamphlet, is: mbforeverhers@yahoo.com

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not surprised that she doesn't love me and I think in time she could learn to love me again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can, IF she is willing to obey God. Through that obedience it IS God's promise to you that will love your spouse and your spouse will love you. The same, by the way holds true for you. You, too, need to be willing to obey God no matter what your "feelings" are at any given time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The things I have problem with are the fact I know about (some) of the affairs and that she thinks it would be impossible to be monogamous to me. I will not forgive any affairs going forward.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Without a Christ-centered life, I agree. You have both most likely, and your wife most certainly, been following your own desires. In essence, enthroning "self" as "lord" in your lives. That is Christ's rightful place. He is to be "Lord of your Life." He EARNED the right. He bought you both with HIS life. He is sovereign, not you, you wife, or me. It is Satan who lies and says, "God didn't REALLY mean what He said." Eve fell for that line and Adam sought to please his wife before being obedient to God. And we've been believing the lies and repeating the mistakes ever since. God DOES MEAN what He says.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My trying so hard to save our marriage makes her (SICK).
What does she want me to do? beat her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course it "makes her sick."

First, you've been stumbling around thinking "being affectionate" is the answer. It's not. It's part of the answer, but just like a car won't go very far with just a carburator, there are more "parts" needed.

Second, it's hard to justify the stench of an affair when someone is being "nice" to you.

Third, it's not you that's making her sick. It's sin.

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ForeverHers:


I am wondering who, if anyone, at your church knows about
her adultery?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that some of her girl friends know (one of whom she had a lesiban affair with)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Joker, I'm going to take this response as "sarcastic humor" because you KNOW my question was directed at who in authority at the church might know about your wife's sin and open rebellion against God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to talk to pastor about all of this but I am affaid he would not respect my wishes and tell her about it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there some reason you believe that your pastor would be so weak as to engage in gossiping or in revealing a confidence? Is this just your fear talking?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We go to a very small church and our children go to school there. I am afraid talking to him would out the affairs to everyone and change the way Pastor and the other treat my
wife and me. They are all fooled into thinking she is some great lutheran girl and sunday school teacher.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay. First things first. IF talking to the pastor WOULD cause him to "spread the gossip" around, then you need to be in a different church. If that is the sort of weak leadership present in your church, it would be no wonder to me how they could tolerate a person engaged in willful sin to be a teacher of anything, much less impressionable young skulls full of mush.

BUT if, as you say, they are being "fooled" by your wife, it becomes your responsibility to talk with the pastor, in confidence because you ARE "your brother's keeper." To even put it in secular terms, "silence connotes assent." "Appeasement does NOT work."

Yes, it IS possible that one of the consequences of your wife's affair, and that other's who DO NOT understand how to forgive AS God has forgiven them, could "change the way Pastor and the other(s) treat my wife and me." This is one of the reasons for FOLLOWING the Matthew 18:15-20 "formula" for church discipline. It limits the "circle of knowledge" based upon the response, the repentance, of the person who is being confronted in love regarding their sinful behavior.

Suffice it to say, my wife and I eliminated this potential by finding another good, solid, bible believing church to attend. Joker, there ARE going to be consequences to all sin, and adultery is no different. It is in HOW you deal with those consequences that will have a lot to do with your walk with Christ and your willingness to simply be obedient to ALL of God's commands. Remember, Christ is found in all churches who love Him and keep His commands.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is teaching high school aged kids about the difference in religons around the world. I thank maybe she should talk to them about something she really knows like Adultery
(oh wait.... that was mean).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand your anger and disgust. I agree. She should not be teaching anyone until she has learned to surrender her life, all of it, to Jesus Christ. Comparative religions does NOT sound like a topic that she is ready to teach to young believers. WHY would Christianity be any different than any other religion if she does not personally believe that Jesus Christ IS her LORD and Savior? While only God KNOWS the status of her salvation, her actions do NOT seem to indicate a "love for the Lord" and she should be examining her self and her beliefs, not trying to teach others what she does not herself know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Should I talk to our pastor or should I seek our a pastor at another church? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, your pastor will likely need to know at some point IF the two of you are going to remain there AND your wife is going to continue to teach.

Before that, however, it seems that YOU have a large knowledge deficit yourself regarding what ARE God's commands and how to fulfill the roles of husband and wife to have a marriage that is both loving and that brings honor and glory to God. Therefore, I strongly suggest that you seek counseling with a TRAINED counselor. Someone who has had specific training in biblical MARRIAGE counseling, not just a few seminary classes on counseling in ministry.

Here is a link to the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors. You can search the site for counselors in your area. I strongly suggest you start there. Then you can decide if you need to involve your pastor, but I believe that the "shepard of your flock" is going to have to know.

NANC Website

God bless. And let me know at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com if you want that pamphlet I mentioned previously.

Dear Joker!

Something you wrote in one of your first posts has stuck with me. You read from (a deleted?) file in her hard disk that she referred to the OM as “Master”. And he told her to squeeze her nipples until she tought of him.

I write this in much ignorance, but I believe this terminology, and also the pain-giving reminder of him, indicates a master/ slave relationship, with punishment and submission.
If punishment and humiliation is what she seeks in a relation then this may be why you have not been enough for her. Are the other men in addition to him people the master has “lent” her to, to prove his power over her? To test how submissive she was to him?
Is this why she is so ashamed to talk about these matters? That she feels her sexual life is perverted in some way?
I am ignorant on these matters, so take the above guess with a pinch of salt.
If the above is correct, she may be in need for professional help. She may be the victim of sexual abuse when she was a child. Today she may perhaps seek again the feeling of no control in her sexual life (??)
She may be in need for your support rather than abandonment. On the other hand, I would understand if this scenario would be scary for the BS. (It would for me!)
I don’t think plan A etc is sufficient to overcome deep problems like this. If you can not go together to a MC, then seek support yourself from a professional. Preferentially you should choose a counsellor with competence on sexual psychology and dysfunctions, so that you could learn what is the challenge you face.
I will continue to pray for you, and for her.
Good luck!

<small>[ September 15, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]</small>