It's a long story that I posted maybe 3 or 4 months ago. Even went so far as to start posting in "in recovery". It makes me want to cry.

In a nutshell, WS had an A (E and P) that started in 10/03 and ended when I found out about it in 3/04. We started counseling but it didn't work (C was more interested in talking about himself). I started IC but WS sandbagged. I tried. Hard. battled through the pain and heartache. I saw glimpses of success over the months. She said she loved me. Wanted to make it work. Wanted to fix what was broken. Wanted peace. I tried to make it easy on her. Gave her the time I thought she needed. Allowed myself to have hope. To have faith. To believe.

Last Wed I found out that WS was carrying on yet another A (again, P & E) with yet another man. EA started in 1/04 and PA in 3/04. The entire time I was trying to get things back on track, to give where I NEVER thought I would be able, she was having an A. There are NO WORDS to express how big of a fool I feel like. All the times I told her I loved her. How I avoided saying the things I felt, the "love busters" and tried to build her up. THE ENTIRE TIME she was having an A. She was LOVING another man. And she gave herself ENTIRELY to him. Heart and soul, something she admits she as never been able to give to me in the 12 yrs we've know each other and 10 years we've been married.

There just aren't words to describe the devastation.

The latest A is now over, again because of me. I called the OM's W (yes he was M as well). I now have an ally. I expect that the OM had a VERY bad night last night which does make me feel a bit good. He had been warned. He actually called me to ask me not to tell her (like I owe him any favors). I told him he had 24 hrs but ended up giving him a week before I called her. He didn’t have the balls and she didn’t have a clue. I broke my heart to tell her.

My WS has asked for 6 mo. to show me. She started IC yesterday. She says I’ll see her change immediately and over time. I just don’t know how I can possibly accept anything from her anymore. How can I ever allow myself to trust and hope and feel. The latest betrayal was so absolute. I’ve agreed to the 6 months. There is NO WAY I’m giving her another chance but we have 2 absolutely beautiful young children. If it weren’t for them, I would have already filed. I won’t stay in a loveless marriage for their sake but I owe it to them to give may last breath to fix what is broken and save the family. But that’s about all I have left.

Sitting here tonight, unable to sleep, I have only one thought; I JUST CAN’T DO THIS!!!!!!

(guess it's time to update my signature)

Moondog1,

I suppose my first thought is that you don't have to do it. You don't - you can walk away, contact a lawyer, and file. You can, many do, many never come to MB.

Now, the fact that you are here leads me to believe that you are looking for strength to try again.

I am not going to tell you that everything is going to be fine, we don't know that.

I think it is safe to say that there are more problems with your W than simply having un-met needs. I recommend you call the Harleys (this site) for counseling. It is much less expensive than divorce, they are good at what they do. You can get a hold of Penny Tupey at "Save your marriage central" too, she does coaching, has been both a WS, and a BS, understands and knows the problems from both sides.

Now, I realize there is nothing I can say that will make things better. I understand that, but we care - and will do as much as we can through this medium to help you.

How are the kids in all this? Usually they can feel the stress, and it affects them.

Remember weekends are sometimes slow, don't get discouraged if replys take time.

SS

<small>[ September 18, 2004, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

As for the kids, no question that they see it. It was really bad after I found out about the first A. With time and counceling, I've been able to do a better job but they still show a lot of insecurity. It breaks my heart. In a D it has already been agreed upon by my W and me that I would take them. And actually yes, I have been to a lawyer. Not to file but to "get all of my ducks in a row".

Regarding counceling, we've got a good referal and are starting the week after next. We'll see how it goes. Again, I have no room left for hope. I've just got to give more time, wait and see. I just worry that there has been to much damage done. I think we both believe that. I'll see what the next 6 months brings but unless it's her heart and soul, I think it's over. Just another statistic.

Moondog -

The reason you CAN do this is because of your kids. Like toomuchcoffeeman says "You want to look back ten years from now and know you did your very best."

Your wife is a little different than most WS's in that she stopped the affairs when you found out. Usually they continue, and have a hard time being sorry.

Would your wife consider posting here?

Believer, I can NOT possibly agree and disagree with you more. When I found out about A #1 in March, she did continue on for a short time with the E side of things BUT she had ALREADY STARTED A #2 on both fronts (EA and PA) which I knew nothing of at the time. During the ENTIRE TIME I was trying to get things on track, to help her get things on track, she was in the thick of a EA AND PA!!!! For the LAST 7 MONTHS!!!!!!!!

Where you are right on was her having difficulty saying she's "sorry". She has shown very little remorse for the pain and destruction she has caused. I mean really, how could she. "I'm sorry honey but I'll be out F-ing the man I am truly in love with over the next week". She certainly can't see past herself and the turmoil she has caused in her own life. Not our children, not me, not her mom or twin sister (both of whom know because I told them), not the W of the OM (again whom I told). There is NO REMORSE, ONLY SELF ABSORBED GUILT.

Like I mentioned, she's in IC. Her C said to be patient with me because for men "it's all about the sex". F THAT!!!! Sure it matters. anybody that comes here that has been betrayed knows the pain of the images. But I want what should have been mine from the beginning. I want my wife. I want the mother of my children to say that she truly loves me and actually means it.

Honestly, I think she’s too much of a coward to end it on her own. She wants it to be over but she doesn’t have the balls. I look back at 10 yrs and outside of 2 wonderful human beings brought into this world during that time I see absolutely NOTHING. I never had her and I never will. But I will now always have my children. I must look after there best interests and my own. My W has never been a part of their lives or mine. Honestly, only recently has she been a part of anybody’s life. And it wasn't us. Again, I have to say...I just can't do this. Why prolong the pain. It’s been over from the beginning. Save what can be saved.

Moondog

I see you say she is doing IC, i agree it sounds like she needs it, but are you also doing MC or was that planned for later?

Yes you can end it and perhaps should if that is truly what you feel and will in the future, but do you know you will feel that way months down the road?

I do think you need to tell you wife that, but perhaps in a MC oe IC situation where it can be discussed as calmly as possible.

Your anger was & is like mine I think, but you have had no let up or a place to discuss that anger and hurt. I do think you need some place for this to happen. Besides this site have you thought of IC for you? TO work through the anger and pain?

moondog,

I just have a few questions first is are you on anti-d's? I only ask because I didn't believe that they could help me with the pain in the beginning of my H's A but they did. They take the edge off. They sort of numb the pain a little so you can sort things out in your head reasonably. It is so hard to think rationally when you are hurting so badly. I know. I actually almost went to the hospital because I hurt so bad. All I did was cry for months. I didn't know what else to do with myself. The pain was unbearable. I have never felt such pain in all my life honestly. My bestfriend and father of my S betrayed me. It is just unbelieveably horrific to go through. So you might really want to try them if you aren't already.

Second it really does sound like your WW might have some self esteem issues. My H's needs were all met for the most part, but he was a very grouchy and all for himself type of person. He has gone to IC and is different now I hope he stays that way. She very well might change, it is possible. I know what you mean when you say you can't do this. I said the same thing so many times. I am not downplaying your sitch at all. I am just saying let her get some help, and you get some help and then look at the whole picture. The frame might look differently by then. Good Luck to you.

HINY

I've been in IC for 2 months or so but not on AD's. My C has suggested "thinking about it" but I haven't taken any steps. Lots of built up anger which I have a hard time dealing with. I write a lot and, as you've seen from my post, it comes out in that.

And my W does have self esteem issues which is actually amazing. She is engaging, smart, successful and beautiful. There is NO ONE who would argue these traits with the exception of herself.

As far as MC, I expect we will be starting in the next couple of weeks. My W is going to get a strong ref. from her C.

The thing is, everybody who knows of our situation, her family, my IC and L, all say they can't believe I haven't kicked her out. That I have every right. There has been so much devastation. So much pain for which she repaid me with more of the same. It all points to her not wanting to remain in this M. So when she tells me today that she wants to make it work, I just don't believe her. It's not out of fear that she will just bring me more pain. I just am no longer capable of it.

I can't believe YOU (a man) posted all those things. I swear, it's like I posted everything you said. We are exactly in the same place emotionally. My husband says exactly the same things your wife says. Sorry to say, I generally think of men being that way.

My husband has ruined everything I ever thought I wanted. But I have to say, sometimes I truly believe that this is my chance to take back my life. Why did I ever let anyone become so important to my happiness? I know that sounds like now I'm bitter. Maybe I am, but I sure feel ALOT happier when I remember this is my life. I'm responsible for my happiness and I will never let anyone control my life the way I have let my husband control me. I was so devestated when I found out I truly did not want to live. I didn't see EVER being normal let alone happy again.
I have three children. I have to be happy and strong to be a good mom. I have spent way too much time feeling crappy about this and it has been really hard on my kids (they don't know the specifics but I know they can tell I was soo DEPRESSED). I could barely function!

So whatever you decide to do, and no matter if it works out or not...try to rely on yourself for your happiness. I know this will sound too basic but I have started working out, I walk everyday, I gained the weight back that I lost in the aftermath, I go out with friends at least once a week and I treat myself with respect.

I do not kid myself that I can do anything to make this work. The cheaters do not know how to deal with their problems so they cheat. I was in the same crappy marriage and I DID NOT cheat. This is not my failure. I tried and begged and cried for my husband to participate in our marriage/family. I offered to go for counseling, do whatever it took. I will not allow his weakness to ruin me.

I am still living with my husband. He has asked for a year to show me how he will change (sound familiar?) So I go about my business. I do not feel he has changed at all. Oh, he is here all the time doing all the things he should of been doing but he still cannot talk to me, open up. And I'm done trying to pry it out of him. However, I do listen when he does want to talk.

I too, am doing all the steps in case I want to get out. Take your six months, plan your escape route in case you need it. (IC and divorce attorney) Maybe we will be wowed and they will come through. But do EVERYTHING you can now for you emotionally and physically. Do EVERYTHING you can to plan for a smooth transition for your kids.

Good luck to you. Thanks for your post. It helps me to remember not to fall into the trap of dependence again.

Doing the best, You've saved me the trouble of a lot of typing. I think if my M looked itself in the mirror, it would see yours, images reversed and all!!! I echo every word you wrote.

My IC has allowed me to face what I probably have always know, and what you know. Absolute and total dependence on my W for my emotional well being. I see it but am still working on dealing with it. It’s all I’ve know for 10 years. Lost 45 lbs after D-Day #1 but that wasn't such a bad thing. Now I'm running 5-6 miles a day and eating RIGHT. I look in the mirror and feel good about myself. Step one, self confidence.

For 10 years, I felt I didn't deserve my W. That she was to good for me and I was lucky to have her. I did what ever I had to, put up with what ever was necessary, for fear that I might lose her. I was wrong but wonder if I'm not still doing just that. After 2 A’s in less than a year, I still let her stay.

Finding out about the 2nd A, while again totally devastating, was really a wakeup call for my. I CAN NOT DEPEND ON MY W FOR ANYTING, let alone my own happiness. I am trying to focus on my kids, my ultimate source of happiness (at least until their teenagers and they break my heart!) and of course myself. It's very hard to stop though. Like you, I'm looking at this as my own chance to finally get my life back, whatever the outcome. I realize that it has been so very long since I have been truly happy. Years and long before my the A's began. I miss it. I want it back.

Moondog,
I spent alot of last night thinking of you and our shared circumstances. I've been married 10 years. We had our first date 19 years ago (high school sweethearts).
Every once in awhile I check in with my husband. I did last night. Just to see if there is any change on how I feel and there is none! I almost wish I could feel anything positive but I just don't. It would be so much easier.
But I think I'm so much happier now. I feel so much better about myself. I can't give that up.
I was also so unhappy.
I also thought I was undeserving of him. I thought I just wasn't pretty enough, nice enough, loving enough, patient enough, supportive enough. Now I look back and think how I gave up MYSELF. I'm back. And I'm not going anywhere.
You and I deserve to be happy. I hope that we never forget that. I'm scared I will somehow fall back into my old ways of thinking, behaving.
My husband keeps saying "we can be happy again". I just think, "when was I happy? I can't remember being happy! He has no clue that I wasn't happy. He only thinks of himself". Its so scarey!!!
When we went to MC my therapist figured out right away that we were high school sweethearts. He was like "uh ha!" I wanted to scream, what about me! I want sex with someone else. I've thought often over the years that I should of experimented more, dated more. I didn't go out and break my marriage vows. I told myself should of, would of, could of. Its too late. This is my marriage. I have to built my life around this. And I did. Built my whole darn life around him and my family. I thought it was the way it was suppose to be. Had I known everyone was living by different rules (no rules) I would of done everything differently. Its like I WASTED years of my life doing the right thing and no one else was! Not the women sleeping with my husband who knew he was married. Not my husband that left my home alone pregnant or breast feeding to have sex with everyone else.!

Moondog,
Sorry I got cut off there.
Anyway, you and I have to remind ourselves daily never to go back. Hang on to OURSELVES. We are alone in this world no matter how you cut it. We need to teach ourselves to be a little selfish.
Not only in this marriage either. In all our future relationships (if there are any).
I truly thought this was a woman only type problem.
That statement u made about your wife not having the balls to end it...I have said exactly the same thing to my husband WORD for WORD.
But you and I can use this time (for me the continuing financial support and help with the kids) to work on ourselves.
I'm going to see a divorce attorney Tuesday. I'm taking this time to come to terms with my probable future and how I will do things, how I'll live, what kind of life I want. I can walk everyday, I can go out, I have time to think things out.
So we are LUCKY!
With each day I feel better about my husband. Thats good. He will be apart of my life forever since we are parents to our children. I don't want to hate him. And I don't. I feel sorry for him. We both know he ruined our family. He knows I have given him a big chance here and he knows he can't do it. I will have no regrets because I have stayed to see whats up.
Just like you, I have opened myself up to the possibility he could change. Just like you I see he can't. Don't you feel better knowing that? I won't look back and say "maybe I should of given it a chance".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by doing the best I can:
Well guess what. I have a great thing going. A man treating me with respect, doting on my every whim. Plus, wonderful sex (now, held off on that for awhile). My self esteem is back. I couldn't have done it this fast without my lover.
The whole thing just sort of happened and I'm glad it did.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If your self esteem is so dependent on having a lover on the side, how are you going to react if he decides to dump you for another woman?

Don't you realize that this is the way that a great many of WS start their affairs? They suffer from low self esteem and chose to have an affair because it makes them feel alive and desired.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not recommended revenge affairs. But if there is someone interested, go for it. I truly think in the long run this is what I needed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In case you forgot, this is Marriage Builders, NOT Open Marriage Builders.

Yikes...I wish I had sage words... For me, my WS had ONE change to screw up. If there was another A or ONS, that would be it. I wouldn't waste another minute or ounce of energy.

C

Get ready...may be a long one. Haven't posted on this in a week or so and have found out a bit more info in that time. Found out the where and most of the whens. That hurt. I've been keeping a journal for the last 8 months to keep track of facts and emotions. One of the times was 2 days before I took my WS to France in an obviously misguided effort to save our M. That made me feel good. Bottom line is it just put a lot of things into perspective. The ABSOLUTE disregard me and our marriage (if there are stronger words, I'll take recommendations).

Last night wasn't a good one. Nothing serious but she knew I was at my limit. Said some things I meant but probably shouldn't have said (not in front of the kids of course. Told her to just go away. "Go upstairs and read a book or something. I'll take care of the kids. just get away from me." She did and I did. After the kids were in bed she asked me to come in the bedroom and wanted to talk. I did and she pulled out a book that her IC had given her called "after the affair" and started reading. It addressed many of the things found in this site. Inability of me to accept that she loves me and wants this marriage to work; It wasn't because she didn't love me; Even though I can't show it right now, I do still love her and want things to work; yadda yadda yadda. Honestly, it's all fairly accurate but it really ticked me off. When she finished, I asked her if I could read her something and she happily said yes. I went into the closet and got a letter that she had written to her first(?) lover. It was how I found out about him. And I started reading. It included things such as "I thought that the fact that I didn't love him didn't matter. That our friendship would be enough. I've never told anyone this but I've regretted my decision almost since day one. I literally spent my whole honeymoon physically ill". and "when we split up (a virtual certainty) I want to put the missing pieces of my life back together". And of course, lets not forget her ravings about their love making. She knew what she had written. But this time, she had to sit there and listen to the full 2 pages being read my me! From my own lips! The impact was unbelievable. She totally broke down for the first time since this all started. Actually, the only time I have every seen that kind of emotion from her was when a close relative died. She said how sorry she was. That it was only my the grace of God that I was still here. She actually showed sorrow and remorse!!!!

What it means, I don't know. I have to look at it as a start but I also have to wonder if it's to late. I mean really, how much do I have to take here. I've told her that I don't know if I can do this and I really don't.

I appreciate all the posts here, good and bad. But all of our situations are different, no matter how many similarities and feelings we share. Mine may be (likely is?) that I married a woman who has never loved me and never will. She came from a broken home (long story) and need someone who wouldn't leave her. She has PROVEN that to me (and I to her) over the last 8 months when I was doing everything in my power to get our marriage back on track "after the affair" and she was, shall we say, busy elsewhere. I've got to be true to myself. I've got to accept reality.

People, lets look at the facts here:

1) She had an A that ended when I found out about it.
2) While trying to get things on track, she was having yet another A.
3) The second A did NOT end after I found out about it but ONLY after I contacted the OM's W.

Granted, I have always loved my WS and still do. But there comes a time when love can be unhealthy and misguided. If there is ANYONE out there who can give me a rational reason why I should think that this M will EVER work, I'd like to hear it.

I'm battered and I'm weary. I can't take the hurt anymore. I can no longer maintain false and misguided hope. I have to think of myself and my children. I have to move on. Maybe I already have.

Well she seems to be very, very sorry for what she did. So that is a good start.

I think that you need to continue working on this. Whether you get a divorce or not, there will be lots of pain. For your children's sake it would be good to try all that you can.

What are her emotional needs? Have you been meeting them? Any losses lately in her life?