JL--I do work in the recovery of this marriage. I do listen to my husband, talk to him, I told him all the details of the affair. I opened up and told h im why I think I went into the affair. I am not closing my ears to him, I accept with all my heart his efforts with me and the marriage. It flatters me that he is working to make the marriage work, even though I failed him as a wife. What I dont like or want, is the constant reminder and talks from his part about the affair,about the OM. The affair ended over five months ago. I made my choice on DD. I have not changed my mind, and will not do it in the future. He does not have to be talking about the OM,or affair,like it is still an ongoing thing, or like it finished yesterday . It has been over 5 months!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
His complain must of all, is that he wants me to talk, about the affair all the time, and also he wants me to talk, like it does not affect me. I hate talking about it. I hate that the OM is between us. I want to move on, I want to have other subjects to talk about. Thats all he wants to talk about.
Why should he have resentments in the future? He does not resent me now..he feels anger, sadness, but he does not resent me. He is angry that I chose such a complete opposite of him, that I chose a lesser man, that makes less money, uglier,bad character. He would be less angry if I had chosen another handsome physician. That really angers him.
I do not push him away from me. I appreciate with all my heart all of his efforts. I love that he is so into me. This is the first time, that he is really working actively in this marriage. Yes, he was a good husband, did not have affairs, did not drink, but he had a sense of complacency with me. He thought he did not have to work in our relationship..
YES, he needs to heal, but I do too. He needs to trust me, but I need to trust me and above all HIM. We need almost the same, but at the same there are variants to our wants. He is a man, I am a woman. We had always being different. Those differences are the ones that kept us together for over 30 years, He said he liked those differences, but now, he wants me to think and be just like him.
Sometimes men and women take for granted the other spouse. I think he took mostof my efforts for granted in this marriage. I did everything to make the marriage work. I work the most,even though I stayed home, I did all the finances, car maintenance, keep the house in working order, raised our kids, all the menial things of the house. He just went to work and came back home. Had always dinner on the table for him, shine his shoes. On the weekend he would go and play golf, at nights he would play guitar or listen to music. We were living in the same house, but we were not connecting. I would talk to him, and he would not hear me. So, dont tell me that I am this close up wife that does not listen to her husband. I always did, and still do.
JL, I do appreciate and respect your feedback here. You are very sound in your advice, but you have to have a more open mind with us WW, or should I say with me???

Thank you for posting!

Myrta

<small>[ October 12, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Faithfully hoping----- thanks for such encouraging words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"After a month of NC has passed, would you be okay with the idea of my writing to (OM) to tell him I'm okay and that I wish him well? Not a phone call or an email -- I'm talking about a letter that you could read and mail for me so you would know what was being said."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is exactly what Myrta did, she begged me to let her call and this opened the communication channel for several weeks before finally going into permanent NC (just a few weeks ago). However, I give Myrta credit--- she mostly used this time to tell the OM the affair was over.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At the time it made so much sense to me ------ it was just a simple courtesy thing, nothing more. Or at least that's what I was telling myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what Myrta wanted and she let me know about it! She was so worried about the well being of OM.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because ALL little white lies grow into BIGGER ugly lies. And I just wasn't that person anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is how it all starts--------- However, I fear Myrta still thinks she can keep things from me for my own good. I worry a lot about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the past year I've had an opportunity to speak to OM -- I saw him in a mall one day. I could have stopped and probably no one would have known that we spoke. Except me -- I would know it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think Myrta will let me know if OM tries to communicate? I want her to keep me informed. However, I suspect she may not say a word to avoid controversy and to perhaps avoid a confrontation between Me and OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, you say you are worried about all the crazy that things folks in affairs do. But Myrta is no longer in the A, is she?? You don't give her credit for how far she has come, I fear. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I give Myrta a ton of credit. She dumped OM instantly and did so a few days after writing OM the most romantic emails anyone can imagine. OM was completely lost and unable to put 2 and 2 together. I wrote OM an email and told him to pay attention to actions rather than words.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's how that happens. First of all, an affair isn't a "real" relationship. It's a manufactured creation, a fantasy. An affair can be whatever you want it to be, or not be, by its very nature. It's always going to SEEM more exciting because it's tailor-made to YOU. (I'm speaking specifically now about my case, which was an EA-turned-PA.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OM believed he was not in an affair. He wanted to believe his relationship was normal. He called Myrta his wife and my children were his children. However, my concern is that I must compete with all the magic of the affair. I drive myself crazy thinking about the fact that I never experienced that Disneyland fantasy with Myrta. Remember-- we courted each other as teens. We never had a torrid romance as adults. This is such a high standard----- how can I ever duplicate that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did I turn the love of a spouse behind me? Easy. I convinced myself over and over again that I loved myself more than he did and that I deserved to take care of myself if he wasn't going to and the OM (Mr. Suave or Mr. Smooth, as you call him) fit right into that mold, too. Here's someone with all the time in the world for me, no "responsibilities" that come before me, nothing that was more important than me. On one hand there is a 20-year relationship (15 years in marriage), on the other hand, wild sex and romance and excitement. Guess which I chose?? Because why the hell shouldn't I? I'm a liberated woman who is well educated, can take care of herself, and doesn't need to sit around and wait for a man to meet my needs when it's convenient for HIM .... I'll just go and TAKE it from someone who can and will hand it over quickly, easily, cheapy, with no hassle. Fast food. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you sure you and Myrta are not clones? This is what she wanted and hence why JL thinks it is a selfish act.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's what solidified my "choice": as I got deeper into the A, I pulled away from H. As I pulled away from H, he pulled away from me out of self-defense. As he pulled away from me, I felt more and more justified in my actions. Vicious circle. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">During this time Myrta rationalized that I pulled away, but it was her the one pulling away and I even mentioned it a few times, I told her you don’t seem as loving as usual. I complained about her lack of interest in making love. However, she perceived that I had no interest in her. She felt that I should have tried HARDER. So the typical reaction is to also pull back and to a certain extent I did. I did not seek her in bed as much as I was now in my early 50s. Therefore, I assume this was a phase in the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So the question remains ..... why go back? Lots of people don't. But those of us that do .... well, I can only speak for myself. I knew that what I left behind was more important to me than the Fast Food. I knew that my personal committment to honesty and integrity was more important than the so-called "love of my life." I couldn't love myself anymore. That's another reason. It's a risk admitting to an A, and I honestly didn't know how my H would react. All I can say is that I'm lucky he stayed on and was willing to work with me on this marriage. It was a risk I was willing to take. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUT----------- you left behind all the romantic enchantment------ the Disneyland adventure, the passion, great sex, ect. How did you cope? This is my greatest concern--------- how can I give Myrta the same feelings OM gave her?

<small>[ October 12, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Myrta,

I read this last post to me, and it saddened me greatly. I fear I overestimated you, or worse that my communications with you has actually damaged or retarded the development of what needs to develop. I guess perhaps it is just too soon for you to see certain things. I am going to try and point out where this paragraph is coming from. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do work in the recovery of this marriage. I do listen to my husband, talk to him, I told him all the details of the affair. I opened up and told h im why I think I went into the affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are all very good things Myrta. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not closing my ears to him, I accept with all my heart his efforts with me and the marriage. It flatters me that he is working to make the marriage work, even though I failed him as a wife.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet, you say he tries too hard. He loves you too much. Finally, I do fear you are closing something to him as I will point out in a moment.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I dont like or want, is the constant reminder and talks from his part about the affair,about the OM. The affair ended over five months ago. I made my choice on DD. I have not changed my mind, and will not do it in the future. He does not have to be talking about the OM,or affair,like it is still an ongoing thing, or like it finished yesterday . It has been over 5 months!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is one of the parts that saddens me greatly. You see your response is really very normal. The WS always wants to move on, "I made my decision, why continue to talk about it?" It is very normal. But, Myrta it is not that simple. Do you remember when we discussed perspective? Here is where your perspective "hearing him or seeing him" is failing you.

He is talking about this because he is still a long way from healed. You are embarrassed, remorseful, sorry, etc. for what you have done. But, you also know the WHOLE story, what you were thinking, what you wanted, what you got, etc. Further, you still have a husband that you trust, who has not chosen another over you.

He does not have that luxury. He needs you to listen to the questions, and understand there is more to them than words. He needs to heal, and he needs to put a story line together that he can accept in his heart. You are the ONLY source of information for this story. So he asks and reasks, and if you were in his situation you would be doing the same thing.

Myrta, what I sense in your response is a lack of empathy. I know you feel remorse and guilty. I know you are sorry for what you did. What I don't know is that you understand what he is dealing with. So far your focus has been or seems to be primarily inward. For your marriage to fully recover it needs to be outward. I know you think it was before, but I have a few things to point out to you that suggest it was not and it is not now.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
His complain must of all, is that he wants me to talk, about the affair all the time, and also he wants me to talk, like it does not affect me. I hate talking about it. I hate that the OM is between us. I want to move on, I want to have other subjects to talk about. Thats all he wants to talk about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he realizes you would much rather ignore all of this and surely move on and be done with it. What you need to see is that this talking, this questioning is a pretty standard way for most BS's to heal. They have to come to a point of having peace that they at least know and understand most of what has turned their world upside down. That is what he is seeking. He is not seeking to punish you, or torture you. He is seeking peace. If you talked with him about this on a daily basis, do you know what would happen? He would get tired of it. He will realize he knows all he needs to know. He will see the story NOT changing and the answers staying the same, and he will gain trust.

Myrta he has to wear this problem out, before he can let it go. You KNOW everything there is to know about this, he knows little, and he feels he is standing on sand. Read his posts as I do, and see the fear, see the lack of confidence, see the uncertainty. It is in every single post of his. He talks about the OM, because he (not necessarily you) is comparing himself to the OM. He has to wear this idea out, and then he will let it go.

When you resist or are defensive, it is like banging on the cage of a wild animal, it just stirs him up. You claim you want this to go away and move on, then stop banging on his cage and he will settle down. Don't you see this? You are the one with the power her Myrta. I realize you don't like that thought, yet as we will see you do enjoy the fact that you run things in your family. I have no problem with this, just don't deny the obvious.

The basis of this site is "radical honesty", and the first person you need to be honest with is yourself. I am not saying you are consciously lying to yourself, me, your H or anyone, but your actions and your words are not lining up as well as they could. Hence your H worries.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why should he have resentments in the future? He does not resent me now..he feels anger, sadness, but he does not resent me. He is angry that I chose such a complete opposite of him, that I chose a lesser man, that makes less money, uglier,bad character.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Resentment is often born from unrecognized sacrifices. You seem to carry a fair amount about him as you state in the following paragraphs. According to you YOU did all of the work in the marriage and the family, he ONLY went to work. You devalue his contributions because you resent what you apparently feel is an unfair arrangement.

So why would you think that if he just has to "get over it" and move on, he will not resent you and the marriage when you don't and won't recognize what this did to him? I know you say you KNOW he is hurt, but then you ask "why does he have to ask me all of these questions all of the time." indicating you don't understand what he is dealing with.

Myrta, there is a policy here called the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. I wish you AND Stanley would read this policy very carefully. Harley came up with it to fight resentment in a marriage. He recognized that someone making a sacrifice for the marriage without an enthusiastic agreement on the part of both partners, often leads to resentment. He also noted in his years of counseling, that those people who did make a sacrifice after discussing it and everyone acknowledging that it was, did not end up resentful.

You and Stanley both need to read this policy and discuss it carefully. It will rub you the wrong way I am sure, but that is precisely the reason it is so important in your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He would be less angry if I had chosen another handsome physician. That really angers him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps less angry, but I am sure no less hurt. You really don't see this do you? This is what saddens me so.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not push him away from me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't see that you do do you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You stated that you did not like all of his affection. You stated that you want to be left alone to heal. You stated that he is smothering you. From here it seems as if you are. From here it seems as if you are more interested in protecting yourself than him. Not unusual, but still not truely a welcoming act do you think??


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I appreciate with all my heart all of his efforts. I love that he is so into me. This is the first time, that he is really working actively in this marriage. Yes, he was a good husband, did not have affairs, did not drink, but he had a sense of complacency with me. He thought he did not have to work in our relationship..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said a lot of nice things about him here Myrta BUT... That but just negated each and everyone of them. So in short, what he does and is IS NOT enough for you really. Isn't that what you are saying? Talk to me here because we are now on ground that I am very very experienced at.

You see I came here because I felt about my W alot like you express your feelings about Stanley. To the point where divorce had crossed my mind. When I started reading here, I came to see that I WAS WRONG. I was not seeing things from her perspective and that while I felt she did NOT love me, that was because I was looking for it in a certain form and she was providing it in another. I had to change my perspective and my point of view. It changed my marriage.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES, he needs to heal, but I do too. He needs to trust me, but I need to trust me and above all HIM. We need almost the same, but at the same there are variants to our wants.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again you worry me. You two are NOT healing from the same thing. You are trying to heal from self-inflicted damage. He is trying to heal from damage you inflicted on him. So yes you both need to trust one another, however, what you need to learn to trust within one another is very different.

Here is how I see it. In order for you to heal Your H must learn to trust you and FORGIVE you. He has actually already forgiven you. The trust will come with time and your consistent actions. The rest is internal to you.

In his case the situation is different. For him to heal you are going to have to convince him that you do love him, respect him, and appreciate that he is in your life and that takes more than words it takes you see where the wounds are and putting the salve that ONLY YOU have on his wounds. Then you must forgive him and learn to trust him. You have not forgiven him yet, and you really have not changed perspective enough to understand where the wounds are yet. I am hoping you will. I had hoped you would start by now, but I think I was too confident in your abilities. I apologize for that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is a man, I am a woman. We had always being different. Those differences are the ones that kept us together for over 30 years, He said he liked those differences, but now, he wants me to think and be just like him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Myrta I don't think he wants that. I think he wants you to look into his soul and help him. He wants to be able to open up to you and have you look inside and help him. He wants to do the same for you, hence his comments about you "opening up". He wants to help you, but he needs to see where and what to help. Your response to him as to date been mostly one of telling him to leave you alone at this level.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes men and women take for granted the other spouse. I think he took mostof my efforts for granted in this marriage. I did everything to make the marriage work. I work the most,even though I stayed home, I did all the finances, car maintenance, keep the house in working order, raised our kids, all the menial things of the house. He just went to work and came back home. Had always dinner on the table for him, shine his shoes. On the weekend he would go and play golf, at nights he would play guitar or listen to music. We were living in the same house, but we were not connecting. I would talk to him, and he would not hear me. So, dont tell me that I am this close up wife that does not listen to her husband. I always did, and still do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually the comments I put in bold suggest that you also took him for granted as well. You seem to think his work/job was easy and a relaxing walk in the park. Do you see the resentment in your remarks? Do you now see why I am cautioning you about HIS resentment building. Look where your resentment took you.

Given what you have said I would have to agree that you to lost touch with one another, and communications was and is an issue that you both need to address. So now he is trying and you are telling NO, it is too much. Ah the joys of recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are very sound in your advice, but you have to have a more open mind with us WW, or should I say with me??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My mind is open Myrta, I am waiting for you to convince me of whatever it is you expect me to see. If you can do that, then you have a good chance of convincing Stanley of the same things.

I must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

I really appreciate your posts to Myrta.

Let me give you an anecdote:

Shortly after D-day I asked Myrta if she had love letters, printed emails, ect. She said NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. She mentioned the gifts from OM and said she would keep them because they had no sentimental value. As you know we recently dumped those gifts and I can attest that it seems they meant nothing to her. Then last night she finally admitted that on D-day she dumped EVERYTHING that had any romantic meaning. That included a ton of handwritten notes and printed emails. She felt these things had to be dumped because they had emotional value. I asked Myrta---------- Why did you waited so long to tell me this? Why didn't you tell JL you had already dumped the important stuff? Myrta then stated she says things whenever she is ready to say them-- no sooner, no later!

However these are the things I need to hear to piece the story together.

JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It really saddens me to that I also took you for granted. I thought you were a man, that does not read (whats not there)between the lines. I thought you were a man, that could see my efforts too, I thought you really wanted to help me.
But I think you really dont. You want me to feel bad about every move I make with my husband. Everything that I do has faults,flaws.
I have never took my husband's work for granted. I am extremely proud that he is a physician and I k now that he works a lot. A lot of mental work, that tires him.
REeading your first posts to me,before DD of last Friday, your posts will give me encouragemnt and hope.
Now, I just see ugliness ahead of me. You put down my efforts too much.
I dont hear my husband, I dont talk to him, he needs me to be talking 24 hours a day, and I only talk 12. etc,etc.
I guess I am doomed for divorce according to your expertise in this matter.
I assure you that I had given my husband all of the details, and he can put the puzzle together. There are no missing pieces. But according to you he is still in the dark, and thats why that resentment is going to creep on us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I also overestimated you, because I thought you were a fair man, that could see a woman, even if not your way, that is trying to keep her husband and her marriage and make it work.
I am so sorry that I dissapointed you, but you also dissapointed me. I guess you are not so similar to my husband after all. He will neutrally hear both parts, and not put one down constantly and make the other the hero.
I think deep down, you want us to fail, to prove your point. But I am sorry to dissapoint you once more, because I am sure we will make it. Remember we have been married for 30 years, have 5 kids, and we have still a solid foundation. It might have some cracks, but they can be repair, in OUR time. And very important too, he is crazy about me sexually. In that he is 200% satisfied, and thats very,very,very IMPORTANT!!!

sINCERELY.
yOUR CONTENDER
MYRTA

Myrta,

Read your H's post above yours. If what he has said is true, don't you think my comments are valid? Further, it is not about how much you have told him, it is about you complaining that he keeps asking questions.

According to your last post you have it all figured out. Your H is very happy with everything and in fact you do see his worth. Yet, read the section I quoted you in, and you say YOU did all of the work, and all he did is go to work. I quote you in my posts for a reason. That is so that you can see the statements I am refering to.

Now if these statements are not yours or they are not true, then I stand corrected. If they are, then this last post of yours does NOT make much sense.

I none of these posts have I stated that I thought you would not make it,but your defensiveness is annoying. I surely hope you don't respond to your H as you do to me.

Frankly, I have nothing else to say. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to attempt to answer them.

God Bless,

JL

FaithfullyHoping--Thanks for your post, sorry I did not reply sooner.
I can see some similarities between you and I. Although you were much better than me, not keeping contact with the OM. I talked to him several times after DD. But there had been no physical contact since May. I knew the affair was over, but I felt sorry for him, and also for myself. I wanted to let go slow, not so radically.
Upon the discovery of my affair, myhusband became very sexual with me. Only the first night he was disgusted with me and did not want to touch me, but after he was very,very sexual.
I have told my husband as many details as possible. I have talked a lot,but of course its not enough for him. He wants to talk forever for years to come, about the affair. I know that what I did was very wrong, and I am extremely sorry for what I did. My husband knows this. I have a concious, very aware and out of the fog to see the magnitude of what I did.
I think my husband and I are not doing bad at all, but according to JL, I am the most horrible WW that has posted here. He is really depressing me now, his posts make me cry,and that makes me angry. He should know by now, that everyone is different, and I dont have to be Stepword wife to make this marriage work. My husband and I are making it work, and will remain married forever. Even with the dark, and ominous cloud of "resentment" that is looming over my husband, according to Mr.JL.
Thank you foryour input. Very helpful to see, that we are similar after. It gives me lots of hope!!!

Thank you again.

Myrta

Stanley,

I'll try to answer your questions here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That is exactly what Myrta did, she begged me to let her call and this opened the communication channel for several weeks before finally going into permanent NC (just a few weeks ago).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't realize that your NC was so recent. I've been under the mistaken impression that it was 5 months ago.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, I fear Myrta still thinks she can keep things from me for my own good. I worry a lot about that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I used to think that too. There is a sad belief out there in general society that "what he doesn't know won't hurt him." I've heard women debate on talk shows about whether or not it's okay to keep secrets from your husband. For example, you've had an affair, but it's over. Do you tell him? So many women believe in keeping those little white lies. (Maybe men do too, I don't know.) I know from my own personal experience that one lie leads to another, and it's so much easier to keep everything clean than to have to invent more lies to cover your lies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think Myrta will let me know if OM tries to communicate? I want her to keep me informed. However, I suspect she may not say a word to avoid controversy and to perhaps avoid a confrontation between Me and OM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suppose you could tell her that if the OM does contact her, you'd like to KNOW about it but would promise not to confront the OM yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my concern is that I must compete with all the magic of the affair. I drive myself crazy thinking about the fact that I never experienced that Disneyland fantasy with Myrta. Remember-- we courted each other as teens. We never had a torrid romance as adults. This is such a high standard----- how can I ever duplicate that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I'm so unfoggy now that I can't relate anymore, but personally I feel like the "romance" of that relationship was never as great as I thought it was at the time. Actually, I take that back. Even then, during it, I knew it was DIFFERENT, but not necessarily better. I knew it wasn't REAL. That kind of romance in a REAL situation (one where I didn't have to lie and hide) would have been great. Even the OM said that all the time. But I think I always knew that the whole thing was contrived. Even if the OM and I had continued a relationship and I had been divorced, what would have happened to the "romance" of the relationship with the OM?? It would fizzle and die away too. The "romance" with the OM was based on sneaking around, hiding, lying, etc. Perhaps we wouldn't have been compatible if we had to live together full-time! (I know for a fact that we wouldn't, actually!)

With your wife, you have a compatible partner, lover, friend, companion. It's THERE that you both have it all. Why worry about competing??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you sure you and Myrta are not clones? This is what she wanted and hence why JL thinks it is a selfish act.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely it's a selfish act and it's the reason why I wouldn't do it again. I've been selfish enough for a lifetime (in regards to this sort of thing, anyway)!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She felt that I should have tried HARDER. So the typical reaction is to also pull back and to a certain extent I did. I did not seek her in bed as much as I was now in my early 50s. Therefore, I assume this was a phase in the marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Both partners can rationalize anything if they have to, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BUT----------- you left behind all the romantic enchantment------ the Disneyland adventure, the passion, great sex, ect. How did you cope? This is my greatest concern--------- how can I give Myrta the same feelings OM gave her?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you assume that she wants or needs it?

I coped by utilizing a lot of positive self-talk. I told myself that my feelings of loss were just the "addiction" talking. It wasn't the real me, it was a bad habit that I needed to break. It didn't take long. I won't lie and say I haven't had bad moments in the past year where I missed him and thought about him. But those feelings are extremely few and far between and nothing about them was strong enough to make me want to act on them. Just like other friendships that have passed by me in life, this one is gone too. I don't need to get it back.

I think about what I learned about myself and I keep telling myself what is important. I don't focus on the negative.

I hope this helps a little more. If not, keep asking and I'll tell you whatever I can!

JL, wouldn't you be defensive if the roles were reverse here. If I were you and you me? You putting me down all the time, it really puts all my defenses up. Even if I dont want that to happen it does. I am trying to put a shield against your negativity.
And just because I say that he just goes to work, does not mean that I dont validate or see his effort. Most of the husbands of friends that I know, they also do things around the house. Even though they also have very important jobs.
When I threw those momentos away, I did it without thinking. I just wanted to get rid of all the things that had any emotional attachment. I forgot about that until yesterday when I was posting to someone else here, about his wife keeping a painting done by the OM. I should had say it, when I did it to accumulate points for what was coming, but silly me, I failed to do so.
Even though you think I am making no effort here, YES, I AM. Yeah, I might be stubborn, Imightnot be Mrs.Chattermouth, but I just did not become this way. I have always being like this. Thats my personality. He always found my reserve ways, attractive, but now all of a sudden to be a perfect "poster girl" for the Marriage Builders, I have to be spilling the beans all the time.
I value very much what you say to me. It really gets to me, and I do hear what you are saying to me. But lately the value of your words have decreased, because it makes me feel very bad about myself, my self-worth as a wife . No one likes the constant criticism, we need words of encouragement every once in a while. I guess other WWs here saw how you were and adjusted very fast to your "counseling" them. And I am sure some of them were not doing so well, even when they were telling you otherwise. They just did not want to cause any disturbances in the posts. One thing that my husband has always told me, that I have not learn yet,is, he says"you should be a hypocrite once in a while, and give the people what they want to hear". I have never been like that,with my family or with friends, and now with YOU. Yes, I was a hypocrite while the affair was going on, but I was in the FOG. I did not know any better.

Myrta

FaithfullyHoping---Physical contac ended in May. But last time I talked to OM was about 1 1/2 months ago. Just to let you know.

Myrta

Myrta,

To the extent I have been helpful to anyone here, it is because the person I was talking with understood where I was coming from. They did not always agree, it is their right. I have also avoid threads where I don't think I have much to offer.

I think I have little to offer you and worse you say I am hurting you. There absolutely no reason for me to take the time it takes to post, and have the outcome be that I have hurt someone. It was not my goal and it is not my goal.

I wish you and Stanley a long and very happy life together.

God Bless,

JL

Myrta,

I guess we were posting at the same time.

Here's one way that you and I are opposite:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have told my husband as many details as possible. I have talked a lot,but of course its not enough for him. He wants to talk forever for years to come, about the affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my case it was ME that wanted to talk forever. I wanted to tell him everything and talk about it during every spare minute that we were alone together. I wanted him to hear every detail from me so that I could feel completely purged. I never wanted him to wonder again if I had been completely honest and forthcoming.

But it got to the point that it was too much for him. He said to me, "I've heard enough. I get it. I don't need all the details." I think that it's just a personality quirk or difference between us. I like to talk everything into the ground and he is comfortable with a lot less than that. When we argue, we argue the same way. Men are from Mars ... you know how it goes.

In your relationship, I guess you are opposite of us. I personally think the important thing is respecting EACH OTHER'S differences. If he needs to hear and you don't want to talk, can you compromise? If you can agree to this sort of thing, it's not disrespectful (in my opinion) to say (or hear), "I can't do this right now, but I'll think about it and maybe we can talk after dinner," or something.

Myrta, I think you two need PRACTICAL ideas to deal with your communication issues. That's why I asked if you were in MC or could participate in it. You would be offered practical ideas -- ways to PRACTICE communicating and ways to learn to deal with each others' differences.

When my H has had enough of my yammering on, I can tell right away because he has a physical response. I can see it in him, and I will ask him, "Is this too much for now?" He usually apologizes and tells me that he needs to change activities or concentrate on something different for a while, and then he will be open to talking again. I might wait several hours or days even, and then go back to him and ask permission to talk about that subject again.

You just can't assume that someone wants to or is ready to talk. There's no mutual respect in that. But notice I said MUTUAL. You have a responsibility on your end to not let it die. You aren't given a free pass to NEVER talk about it! Make good on your word to talk after dinner, if that's what it is going to be. And if you can only handle ten minutes a day or a week, then tell him. But keep that promise. It will go a long way to rebuilding his trust in you!


And Stanley, if you are reading this, maybe you could keep in mind that for every ten minutes that she talks to you about these big issues, you could give her ten minutes of UNCONDITIONAL attention to some other, completely unrelated, matter. I know from experience that a FWW really needs to know that life now isn't all ONLY about what happened in the past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think my husband and I are not doing bad at all, but according to JL, I am the most horrible WW that has posted here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I think I saw him give that title to another WW around here lately. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously though Myrta, if he believed that, do you honestly think he would have given you so much of his time and attention?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think my husband and I are not doing bad at all, but according to JL, I am the most horrible WW that has posted here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, definitely not. But even you have admitted that you and I were alike. Stanley said so too. So if you can admit that you have things in common in another WW, can you admit that it's possible for things to turn out for you as well as they did for me? If you follow some of the given suggestions, that is? They really work. Honestly, they do. I was/am as stubborn as you, Myrta. I detested everybody the day that I had to throw away all my mementoes. I only did it out of spite and said to everyone, "Remember my words in a month from now ..... this won't make a bit of difference!" I was wrong then and I admitted it later. The one thing I did right though was admit I was in a fog and turned some things over to other clear-thinkers to help me with. If you think about it, Myrta, what harm would there be in trying some of these things you are being asked to do? Is it really taking anything away from you? Will you really lose any part of yourself? It may be worth a try, at least.

I'm sorry if this has been incoherent ----- I am trying to deal with a room full of children behind me as I write! I'll check back later to see how you are doing.

FatihfullyHoping...Yes, in that respect we are very different yOU and I. But maybe you have always being that way, a very talkative person. I have never been a talker, The words have to be "spoon" out of my mouth, literrary. Thats the way I grew up, not talking a lot, shy. Here in this posts, I can talk a lot, because I dont have all of you in front of me. Face to face its vey difficult for me. Plus now the subject in question is not a pleasant one.
But you are very right in respecting each others way. He gets angry with me a lot of the times, if I dont talk to him, when he wants to. And, the vicious cycle begins, because I get angry at him, because he is pressuring me to talk. I know we need to relax and let eveything flow as natural as possible.
I know I kept those gifts longer than necessary, I admit that. But I swear to you that it was not because of any sentimental value. I could have done it in the first month after DD. He was already out of my system by the end of the first month. I know I was very foggy the firsst month, but my fog is gone now. I see things clearly, despite my words and actions n ot matching like "someone" here posted.
FH- even though this happened to us, we still have a good marriage. I am sure it is better than a lot of people that consider themselves blisfully happy. One thing my husband has always told me, is that marriages have valleys and hills, I guess we are in a valley right now, but we are getting out of there, We will be soon not in a hill, but in a mountain!!!
I do appreciate inmensely your posts. You are giving me advice for what worked for you and your husband, but you are not putting me down for what I have done so far. Everybody learns and adjusts from their own mistakes, some slower than others.
PLEASE, keep on posting to my husband, he loves your posts and "inside" knowledge of the matter.

Thank you soooooooo much!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta

P.S. I still believe JL, has a personal vendetta against
ME!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
I do think you have a lot to offer to me, but maybe with a different approach..

I do thank you for all your effort, good or bad you did "try"!

Thank you in your wishes!!

Myrta

JL:

Myrta is not a talkative woman. We had a talk and she reminded me she has never been talkative. She has always been that way-------- from day one.

Perhaps I give the impression that she is shutting down on purpose, but in reality this is the way she has always been. OTOH, I talk for the two of us.

She is also a person who can only say what she feels. If I need some encouraging words and she does not feel like talking she is not going to say them. I am not sure is lack of empathy--------- she is different.

I still believe we will be talking a lot one of these days, but she has learned to keep her defenses up for a long time.

She has been a very good wife and puts in a great effort. I never had to complain about her efforts, they are always beyond what anyone would expect.

She is sensitive and she does not take criticism very well. OTOH, some of us guys love the criticism and we even seek it. She is not like that------- her nature is to defend herself at all cost.

She has a wonderful heart and perhaps the OM took advantage of her generosity and "giving" personality. She goes the extra mile for anyone-------- she is VERY unselfish.

Her FOO was not great and she has done wonders with what she got in childhood. In fact, her real childhood started when she spent all her time with our kids and she was still in her 20s.

I can trust that she never wanted to hurt me. In fact it never occurred to me to assume the helm of the household economy despite everything that developed and the fact that OM could theoretically ask her for money.

Sometimes she sounds different than her real self and she can use strong words, but in the end she is a very loving woman.

She is struggling with the same old concept that has plagued our marriage from day one. She still feels she is the lesser component. This has been aggravated by the affair and that is why she defends herself. She feels she could sink if she talks.


I keep telling she is way up there for me, but she refuses to believe me. I tell her she has all the power and she will not buy that. She wants to protect me and herself by saying as little as possible even thou healing is usually achieved by the opposite------ talking up a storm.

Faithfullyhoping:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">personally I feel like the "romance" of that relationship was never as great as I thought it was at the time. Actually, I take that back. Even then, during it, I knew it was DIFFERENT, but not necessarily better. I knew it wasn't REAL. That kind of romance in a REAL situation (one where I didn't have to lie and hide) would have been great. Even the OM said that all the time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one of my concerns. I don't want to be with a woman who is still thinking about the awesome romance of the affair. I don't kid myself---- the affair is pure fantasy and excitement. Shortly after D-day my wife described it as the adventure of her life . I hope that as time passes by Myrta sees all this stuff as something that was somewhat cheap. One would think that a romance in the open (with no lying) is much more fulfilling. However, the secrecy probably adds a special brand of passion and eroticism. I cannot match that in a 1000 years. My only hope is that Myrta sees the affair in a different light in a year or so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I think I always knew that the whole thing was contrived. Even if the OM and I had continued a relationship and I had been divorced, what would have happened to the "romance" of the relationship with the OM?? It would fizzle and die away too. The "romance" with the OM was based on sneaking around, hiding, lying, etc. Perhaps we wouldn't have been compatible if we had to live together full-time! (I know for a fact that we wouldn't, actually!)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shortly after D-day I challenged my wife to go live withy the OM so she could deal with her fog and withdrawal. I would venture to say that like you-- Myrta never saw the OM as a full time companion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With your wife, you have a compatible partner, lover, friend, companion. It's THERE that you both have it all. Why worry about competing??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is nice, but how to I achieve that explosiveness of meeting in a hotel room after not having seeing each other for many weeks and after having a buildup with hundreds of romantic communiques.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you assume that she wants or needs it?
I coped by utilizing a lot of positive self-talk. I told myself that my feelings of loss were just the "addiction" talking. It wasn't the real me, it was a bad habit that I needed to break. It didn't take long. I won't lie and say I haven't had bad moments in the past year where I missed him and thought about him. But those feelings are extremely few and far between and nothing about them was strong enough to make me want to act on them. Just like other friendships that have passed by me in life, this one is gone too. I don't need to get it back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta never expressed her withdrawal in front of me in a very forceful way. If she did is because I dragged some words out of her mouth. I believe her withdrawal was mostly expressed by hyper-sexuality for about three weeks followed by reduced libido for another three weeks.

BTW, today I feel great!

Thanks to you and others!

<small>[ October 12, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley,

I am glad you are having a good day. And Myrta, I am happy to help if I can. It hurts me to see you in a place where you wonder if you can get past, especially when I know that if I did it, you can too.

I thought of something this morning that you might find interesting in your quest to figure out your wife, Stanley.

The whole time I was involved with the OM, I was worried about the duplicity of the whole A. I wondered how my H would react if and when he found out.

When DD happened, and he reacted by telling me that he was staying with me no matter what, two things happened. (More than two, but two for the sake of this example.) I saw HIM in a whole new light and I saw ME in a whole new light.

You see Stanley, from that moment on, keeping him as my husband was the most attractive thing in the world to me. The "Disneyland" of an affair has nothing on knowing that your husband is going to try to forgive you and is willing to work on your relationship together. He told me, "It's you and me against the world, kid." NOTHING the OM could have said or done meant more to me than that moment.

So you see, there IS something that is deeper and more meaningful and even more exciting than Disneyland. When someone like me, dealing with low self-esteem issues, strays, then finds out that after all the mistakes I have made, that I am STILL someone that he wants and needs ... THAT'S exciting and beautiful and passionate.

I don't want to diminish his feelings in this, nor do I want to diminish my own actions, but it was like I said, "I need PROOF that I am loved by you." I got more proof in his staying with me than the OM gave me with our duplicitous sex life.

FH:

Thanks again for your kind words!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When DD happened, and he reacted by telling me that he was staying with me no matter what, two things happened. (More than two, but two for the sake of this example.) I saw HIM in a whole new light and I saw ME in a whole new light.
You see Stanley, from that moment on, keeping him as my husband was the most attractive thing in the world to me. The "Disneyland" of an affair has nothing on knowing that your husband is going to try to forgive you and is willing to work on your relationship together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure how Myrta saw me in the aftermath. In my mind I saw myself as a fool for taking her back. On D-day I told her I was divorcing her no ifs and buts-------- then I changed my mind 16 hours later.

BTW I found out at midnight and did not sleep at all. I think Myrta wanted to make love to me as soon as I found out, but I could not stand her touch. I went to work and started to look at the yellow pages for a lawyer. I almost talked to our CEO who has a gigantic home to ask for a place to stay. Then, just before I told the world I was getting a divorce I saw the light, called Myrta, and told her I wanted to stay married. However, my pride was so wounded-------- I could not even look at her face as I feared she saw me as a fool who came back to a wife who had virtually replaced him with another man for so many months. Is this self-punishment or what?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you see, there IS something that is deeper and more meaningful and even more exciting than Disneyland. When someone like me, dealing with low self-esteem issues, strays, then finds out that after all the mistakes I have made, that I am STILL someone that he wants and needs ... THAT'S exciting and beautiful and passionate.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well-- that certainly makes me feel a whole lot better. I never looked at this from that point of view. In the back of my mind I felt that Myrta would admire more a man who does not accept infidelity. After all infidelity means that we failed as men. In fact Myrta’s OM thought that only he could give her orgasms---- that was his domain! Is this humiliating or what?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need PROOF that I am loved by you." I got more proof in his staying with me than the OM gave me with our duplicitous sex life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need proof too, even thou Myrta says I have very high self-esteem. BTW, both Myrta and OM were consumed with thoughts of not being loved anymore after D-day. If OM didn’t try hard to reach Myrta she would say—“He never loved me”. In the emails I intercepted OM complained constantly that he was never loved because Myrta did not follow him.

We all want to be loved!!!

I had been following the quest for happiness for Myrta and Stanley for some time now.
I am really surprised at the sour turn,of the exchanges between JustLearning and Myrta.
Just Learning seemed to have a good grasp of the problems between Stanley and Myrta. But now, it seems that he had given up on Myrta, By all his previous posts I thought he was more enduring and persseverant than that. He calls Myrta stubborn,and some other things, but I think he could be guilty of being stubborn too, He has "blinders" to see how different people can be. He thought he had Myrta already changed to a different woman, but when he found out he still had some work to do with her, he gave up!
I was waiting to see the transformation of this WW.
Time to look for another thread to learn from!!!

FaithfullyHoping...You know, it is funny you mentioned that you could not believe your husband wanted to stay with you. Well, I still cannot believe my husband wants to stayy with me and thats why I have some reservations and fears.
I dont think I could ever go back to the OM. That was exciting, yes, but at the same time it was very stressful too.
Today I went and got the Dr,Harley book that is mentioned so much here. I am planning to read it all tonight!!! I was reading a bit in the store and it sounds a lot like JL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Thanks for your posts!!

Myrta