Oh, and no offense taken c-dub.

blondblossom, I might be able to set up one of the phone interviews with SH, but I do not live within a close proximity to see him. I agree, it's better to wait on the life altering decisions and think them through.

MIF,

I have one quick question. After we have our talk tonight, and I lay it all out on the line. Namely telling her that I am using spy software to spy on her email. Would it be wrong of me to tell her that due to my lack of trust in her that I won't uninstall the software until a later date?

You bet your sweet bippy it is! It would go something like this: "I love you, but right now I have no trust in your ability to protect our marriage. If you are interested in saving this marriage....please understand that we both need to open our lives to each other and live honestly. Be prepared, that I intend to do "due diligence" and makes sure that are serious about ending contact by looking at your email. You are welcome to look at mine. I'll do my best to protect your privacy accept when it means compromising my own right to have enough honest information to protect myself.

Or should I uninstall it, and then then wonder if she is corresponding with him? I plan on telling her that she needs to send him a letter/email telling him that she wants to save her marriage (If that's what she wants) and therefore she wants to have no contact from him ever again. (No contact letter)

Do you have the formula for the No Contact letter?

No contact letter to the affair partner:

•Out of respect and love for spouse and children s/he realizes that s/he must never see or speak to lover again.

•the relationship with lover was cruel and thoughtless and you did not deserve to be treated that way

•S/He is determined to be the spouse you deserve and have been missing

•S/He will not contact her again and asks that she respect his wish to end the relationship entirely

•You have been told all the details of the affair and will be told immediately if contact is attempted in the future.

If I uninstall the software then I will wonder if she is still emailing him. I do realize that if she still wanted to have contact with him she would resort to other means anyway, but at least I wouldn't have the stress over her emails.

That's why if she agrees to work on the marriage, you use "extra-ordinary precautions" to safeguard the marriage.

Acoountability for time and money.

Open her life to you...emails, phone records etc.

Agree to Counseling.

In your case....no trips to her home town for the next year without you. If she wants to see her mother or friends....she'll have to arrange it so that you are free to go as well.

Take a deep breath. Stay calm. Try not to love bust while your heart is breaking. I'm sorry.

At this time I would not tell her about the spy software.

Just lay out the emails and tell her if she goes to her mothers the marriage is over. If she wants to work on the marriage she can send him one last email the NC letter, but you have to be with her as she sends it.

Sorry to disagree with you 2T2B, but the way to properly "confront" your spouse the way we do here is to tell them WHAT you know and HOW you know it. The cat is already out of the bag...damage has been done. What's important now is what he does with the information. She's been pretty careful to cover her tracks....she's going to know the score anyway. If she truly wants to keep cheating, she'll just find another way more untraccable way to do it....they were worried about the email any way.

MIF,

The other thing you really need to deal with right now is "exposure"....is this guy married?

I think I agree. I am going to have to tip my hat. If I didn't I don't think it would make much difference anyway, since she would avoid contact through email after I let her know what I know she would know I found it out by reading her emails. No he is not married. He is living in his mom and dad's basement.

I gotta tell ya, about 10 minutes ago I changed my mind and started listening to the little devil on my shoulder telling me to let her go on her little date and confront them afterward, but have since switched back to talking to her tonight. She had a meeting to go to and just left. She will be back in a few hours. I feel like John Kerry here, waffling on my decisions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The plan is to ask her if she feels we should be completely honest in our marriage. I'm sure she will say yes. I will then tell her that I have kept some things from her and I know she is keeping some things from me. Then I will ask her if she ever cheated on me (I gotta see how good she will be at lying to me). Then I will tell her about the software, and emails I have seen. Then I will even point her here so she can feel free to read any of my ramblings on this forum. Maybe, she will register and we can come here for support from y'all. I will then let her know that the first this she needs to do is send the NC email and that I want to be there as she writes/sends it.

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

STOP playing games chere....this is YOUR LIFE! Don't "set her up".....Lay your cards on the table. Treat her as you WISH to be treated....with honesty...not subterfuge and agendas. Tell her POINT BLANK...."I know what you did, and this is how I know it. Don't bother being mad about HOW I know....I followed my instincts and they were RIGHT. Just tell me where we go from here."

7

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

Well, we had the talk. So everything is out in the open now. She said that a month ago, that he started to kiss her on the neck and she stopped him and told him she couldn't do that. It doesn't really matter, if more happened. I still feel betrayed. I mean she shouldn't have been in that position to begin with.

Now begins the road to recovery. She emailed him the NC letter, and is not going to see him Sat. For the first time in 10 years there may actually be no secrets between us.

Our big problem is communication. I have a hard time expressing my feelings and as a result don't tell her when something is bothering me. Of course, when I started to mention one thing last night, she rolled her eyes and said "Here we go". Which is precisley why I don't tell her if I am bothered by something. I don't get a response from her as though she even cares about my feelings, so why bother?

I gave her my screen name here so she can read what I have posted, but she didn't look yet. I am sure she will and most likely be hurt by some of the things I have written. I just hope she realizes that a lot of that stuff was written under the influence and/or while I was pissed off.

So, what do I expect next? Any advise for someone treading in unfamilar waters? Things are pretty fragile around here as you all can probably guess.

Thanks for all the help

MIF?

maybe some day I can change the ? to a ! in my user name! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

7

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

Mif,

I am gratified that things went so well. What about getting marriage counseling? Recovery is a process....and it takes time and consistency to rebuild your marriage after betrayal. You need to take a good hard look at how YOU personally contributed to the vulnerability of your marriage. We will help your wife do the same. So while your first instinct will be to complain about what your wife does....what you'll find is that much of what works to help marriages after infidelity is "counter-intuitive" and that you will have to refocus your efforts on you...not your wife. Your wife messed up....big time. But the best thing you can do for your marriage is to explore the disconnection that grew between the two of you and understand the causes so that the two of you can begin to create an environment that supports your marriage. Most wayward spouses are not very remorseful....and that's a hard pill to swallow. Part of the reason for that, is because they felt neglected in the first place, and they use that for justification of their thoughtless actions. The early stages of recovery are very difficult. I want you to go out and buy a book today. At this stage...it will be invaluable. Read it together. "Surviving an Affair" by Harley.

Keep us posted. You may consider moving to the GQII board where they have a lot of good vets. There is the Recovery board too...but the advice is less consistent there. This board can be slow and there's so much fresh pain here that it might slow down things.

Please Please....consider getting a really good counselor or coach to help the two of you navigate these rough waters.

You really did great!

bb,
We have HNHN and I read that 6 months ago. I agree, it was a good book. A real eye opener. My W started reading it, but I don't think she ever finished it.

Star*fish,
We went to a counselor a year ago for 3 or 4 sessions. Maybe it's because I didn't know what to expect, but I didn't think he helped all that much. I am definitly up to going back to MC, so I'll see what I can get set up. I know I am equally responsible for the vulnerabilty of my M. There are a lot of things I have screwed up. I just think I am not good at this relationship stuff. Also, I'll look into "Surviving an Affair". I have also read here on the forums a lot about The 5 languages of Love and may have to pick that one up too.

Thanks again for the words of encouragement. It really does give me a positive feeling that we can work through this. I sometimes feel that the way our M has turned that it can't be reversed, but you give me hope!

MiF?

<small>[ September 24, 2004, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

mif,

There really is a big difference between marriage counseling and marriage coaching. They both address many of the same issues...but coaching tends to be more proactive and action oriented. I recommend the Harleys for counseling...and if you're looking for a good coach...check out www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

You done good, kid! I think that the ONLY way to get through this type of thing is to put it all on the table and see what each person is willing to live with, is willing to give up and is willing to work at. The fact that's she's not going to see him and she is going forward with no contact shows her intent to work on the MARRIAGE. Do what you can in terms of MC...find the right person, even if that takes kissing few frogs, so to speak. You need to work on effective communications of your feelings, you both should work on how to manage money TOGETHER and work yourselves into a secure, loving FULFILLING marriage!

Congrats to you! You win either way!

C

Well, we had another talk this morning and she is angry. Is this normal? I feel she is pushing all the blame on me. If I had been a better H she wouldn't have done this or that. I won't deny that I am responsible for not being a better H and that due to my countless mistakes it made our M vulnerable to an affair. I just feel like she does not want to own her mistakes. She tells me that she is tired of trying to save our M and that she is always trying but that it's a one sided effort. The funny thing is is that I couldn't tell you what she has done to try and save it.

She mentioned that she wasn't sure if it was worth it and didn't know if she wanted to fix this marriage or not. At this point if she told me it wasn't worth the grief and wanted to call it quits I wouldn't fight it. I just figured we owed it to our children to try and make it work.

What really hurts me is that she thinks I am a bad father. I am more involved in my children's lives than my father ever was, and her father left when she was 2 and she never heard from him again until she was 15 or so.

Mistakes I've made (according to her, and I won't dispute.)
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't give her the affection she wants</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't spend time with her.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't talk to her about things that bother me.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't give her the admiration she wants.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

MIF?

Something else I just thought of that she said this morning. When I mentioned that I wasn't impressed with the MC we saw last year she said I probably didn't like him because he sided with her. Which I don't recall him doing that, other than he told me to show my W more affection. I guess it's hard to show affection toward someone who doesn't seem to be receptive, and/or want to meet some of my needs. It's quite common for me to show affection and have her push away and ask me what I'm doing. She wants to be admired, told she attractive. I was doing that for a while and one day she tells me that she feels uncomfortable like I am looking at her like she's a "piece of meat". This is typical, I can't do anything right. She tells me she wants something and I start doing it only to find out she doesn't like it.

7

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

oops, double post

<small>[ September 25, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

Well, we had yet another talk. It seems like I am always the one to appolgize. Why doesn't she? I must have appologized for my not meeting her emotional needs three or four times. Did I get an apology from her? No. She tells me that she does not regret "the kiss" she shared with him and that she has not emtional feelings for him. She did admit to calling him last evening after the NC email was sent. For whatever reason I didn't ask her what they talked about, I kinda wish I would have, but I guess it doesn't matter. I think that she will still try and keep in contact with him even though she knows it hurts me. She says he is her best male friend.

We both agreed that this is probably strike three in our marriage. If we can't get things on track it most likely will be over. That saddens me. I do love her and don't want it to go that route, but am kind of preparing myself emotionally for that. We have a history of bottoming out then band-aiding our problems for a few months only to have things slowly deteriorate once again.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed here that we get things straightend out for good.

mif,

You need to do something more proactive than crossing your fingers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Didn't I mention to you that most WS are not very remorseful? It's rather bizarre but true. Right at d-day, and until they emerge from the fog of the affair....they really don't think very straight....they can be angry, mean and have a tough time in withdrawal from the high of the affair. It's not pretty to watch and it will make you feel like dirt. Calling this guy after the no contact letter was sent is not a great sign. Please get a good coach or counselor.

And here is good response when your wife blames you for the affair:

W, I am at LEAST 50 percent responsible (or more) for the vulnerability of our marriage to an affair. I am so sorry for everything I did to hurt you....but you are 100 percent responsible for the affair itself. There are many ways that you could have honestly and honorably dealt with our marriage problems (honest discussions, counseling, separation even divorce). None of those would have required lies or betrayal. Whether you ever regret that kiss or not, I do hope that you will regret the deep pain that you have caused me by your thoughtlessness.

You are VERY allowed to RESPECTFULLY express your pain. It is part of "confrontation" and an essential part of Plan A.

Now lets talk about another essential part. If your wife breaks NC for ANY reason from this moment on....you must expose this affair. If he is married. You call his wife. You talk to your family and anyone else who has influence to help your wife do the right thing. Most people balk at this step....but it is one of the most powerful tools in the infidelity arsenal to end affairs and if she won't end contact...ending the SECRECY is VITAL. Affairs need secrecy to thrive and grow. Please don't get squeamish in case this is necessary. The longer you wait, the longer the affair becomes entrenched. If she sticks to no contact....you don't need it. But if she doesn't....I want you to blow the roof off and let the sun shine in.

Until the affair is REALLY over....you can't rebuild your marriage.

Good Luck
Blessings

How do I know if it's really over? Since I have tipped my hat about how I found out in the first place I feel I have given up the only tool I had to know the truth. Now she can carry on and know that I won't know. She is pissed that I don't trust her, but whenever I say something to the effect of stepping into my shoes and seeing if she would like me sleeping at a female friends house and not telling her, and kissing that female friend. She doesn't really respond.

All I can think of is this email, it is etched into my brain and I'm not sure she is being totally honest with me about her feelings toward him.

Email from her to him:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">guilty? yes, regret, absolutely not. Thought about in the past, yes. Afraid it may happen one day, yes. glad it was with you, yes. I know how rejection is and I want to let you know it was not you. I was afraid that if I let it go any farther that I would enjoy it way too much and we would get in way to deep. Am I curious? Hell yeah I am! We can just talk about it later. There is so much that I want to say but I really shouldn't. I would rather just talk to you in person. I am really not comfortable with this whole email crap. That is why I suggested that maybe we should just "stay in" verses going out. I guess it really doesn't matter to me, I am comfortable with you no matter where we are anyway. You are more than welcome to stay with me if you would like, it is an open invitation--who knows, maybe we could drown each other in the pool in the middle of the night! just kidding!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is upset that I don't want her going to visit him or have any contact with him. I mean HELLO! Why would I want her to do that?

It just kills me that she doesn't think there is anything wrong with this all. She still puts all the blame on me. SHE is the one who has tried over and over to save our marriage, SHE is the one who treats me so good, I am the one who doesn't care about this marriage...

Whatever.

MIF?


I think I need to stop drinking at about 6 beers. At 4 1/2 I started feeling good, and forgetting about the whole situation. Now, after 9 I am sitting in front of my computer crying my eyes out.

<small>[ September 26, 2004, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>