I’m new here. I sure wish I weren’t here.

D-Day3 PA 9/6/04
D-Day2 EA 9/99
D-Day1 EA 1984
DS 24
DS 21
DS 13
M 25 years

It’s difficult to describe exactly where I am now without a bit of background. I’ll try to be brief, but thorough enough so you may understand my situation.

BACKGROUND:
My wife and I were high school sweethearts. We dated several years before graduating high school. Shortly after high school I went into the military, and we were married shortly after. We had our first son in 1980, and our second in 1983. We had tried for a third child for several years, and were blessed with our third son in 1990.

I have been totally in love with my wife since we had first dated. Our marriage started reasonably normal and happy. There are always ups and downs, but I thought we were doing really ok.
Then in 1984, she had an EA with an OM. It was pretty short, lots of people found out about it, including her family, and she quickly stopped seeing OM. I was shocked and hurt, and really couldn’t figure out why it had happened. I wasn’t real good at dealing with it, and she simply wanted to put it behind us and move on. I grinned and beared it.
In 1994, there was an event that shocked our lives. It had to do with our 4 year old son and a man that lived in the area. I only mention it here because it was such a traumatic event, and it really devastated us. It also triggered childhood memories of my wife, who then revealed that she had been sexually abused in late childhood. That whole year was extremely fragile. I really tried my best to be there for her and support her in any way that I could. But she had the tendency to put up a shield around her heart, and not let anyone close when she is hurting. She went to a councilor for help for many years. Our sex life has not been the same since this timeframe. Also, since that timeframe, her relationship with her parents and sister has not been the same. She continues to believe that they are trying to control her, and tell her what she should and shouldn’t do.
In 1997, she went back into the work force, and in 1999 she admitted to having another EA. I again was pretty blindsided. And again was really poor at dealing with it. I pleaded with her to end it and promised to try to be a better husband and to work on things that she didn’t like. She ended the relationship, and we tried to move on again. I tried to communicate better and be a better husband. During each of these timeframes of EA’s, she had put space between herself and the rest of her family.
In 2003, our oldest son was in a terrible life threatening accident. We almost lost him. He went thru numerous operations, and 9 months of physical therapy. We were all there to support him. My W was there the most. After he was recovered, and back to work, my W began putting some distance between herself and her family, and actually me as well. She said she was still having a terrible time with the whole situation of the accident, and how his wife-to-be had treated him during that time. She started going out with her girl friends from work more often. She started a new friendship with a women that no one knew, and went out to bars often with her. Then that friendship faded in late spring 04, but an old friend returned to the area. She picked up her friendship with her, and again started spending more time out of the house, and in bars. I voiced my concern, but she assured me that they were just out together having fun, and needed a bit of space. I thought I sensed something happening in July 04, and confronted her. She denied anything was happening at all. I was on edge all summer.

CURRENT SITUATION:
To try to keep this short, I was suspicious all summer, and by labor day I was pretty sure there was something to be worried about. Even though she continued to reassure me that there was not. Labor Day weekend I found out for sure. Monitored home phone line & all. I heard way more that I was ready for. I was (and still am) devastated and completely broken hearted. I knew for sure that she had an EA and PA with OM. And I knew details, which I had not known on the other EA occassions. I knew they expressed their love for each other, and more.
I’m sure I didn’t handle all of this very well either. I confronted her that night and told her what I knew. I was very upset. I yelled. I cried. We fought thru the middle of the night. Near the end, she said she would leave me. I pleaded with her to stay, and that I wanted to try to work things out. She stayed. At that point she also promised not to see OM anymore.
I’ve tried to talk to her many times over the course of the last 3 weeks. We really don’t communicate very well right now. I know she saw the OM at least once, and now I suspect maybe more. Just two nights ago, she didn’t come home from work, and stayed out at a bar with other ‘friends’ until 3:00am. When she came in, she immediately told me she wanted a divorce.

Over the last weeks, I tried to express to her how badly I was hurting, and what I wanted from her. Things like honesty, never seeing OM again, seeing a MC and IC, seeing a doctor for both physical and mental health (she’s previously been diagnosed with depression). Anything I said I wanted just seemed like demands to her. So she’s likely to do just the opposite from what I want. She also expressed how much pain she has been in for her whole life, and how the way her family treats her is painful and controlling. That all of life’s major incidents have just torn her apart. That no one ever supports her, or ‘watches her back’. She’s also hurt because her family likes me so well. She thinks that I get treated like their son, and she gets treated like dirt. Anyway, she has a lot of issues, and I think feels more victimized than I do. She really shows no remorse or compassion for how badly I’m hurting.
And a couple other personality traits. She has always been a very good liar. I cannot tell the truth from the lies. But, she is also the best mother you could ever imagine. She loves our children to no end.

I have recently found this website, and I have started reading “Surviving an Affair”. I thought at first that I should just give up and get a divorce. Actually I have waffled back and forth on that several times. I really might have seriously considered that, if it weren’t for our youngest son. He is 13. I love our children with all of my heart. I could not live with myself if I thought I was hurting them unjustly. I have not told anyone about the A. It would really hurt our kids, and would likely end any relationship she has left with her family.

I’m really trying a Plan A. But I’m not sure how good at this I can really be. I feel like I am totally blind, and cannot see at all where I am or where I am going. I don’t know where I stand. She says she has stopped seeing OM. But she still seems to have no desire to reconcile. She says she won’t go to a MC, that she has seen a C for years. Anything that I try to suggest gets taken as a demand, so it gets rejected.

It’s been just over 3 weeks since d-day. I don’t know what to expect from day to day. My head is spinning all day. I’m sick to my stomach almost continuously. I can’t make it thru a day without breaking into tears at some point. Things just seem to keep getting worse instead of better.

So I guess I’m looking for advise. How can I move forward with a Plan A, if I can’t get any commitment to even try to reconcile? I asked her to write a letter to OM like suggested here, but this was taken as a demand, so she wouldn’t do it. I really don’t know if she is or will see OM again? How can I survive without believing what she tells me? I think at present, she says she is staying because she needs to be a Mom to our youngest son. She is not saying anything about staying for me. Is there any hope that I can possibly do anything to help save our marriage?

sorry for the long post...

<small>[ October 09, 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: freshpain ]</small>

Welcome to the forum....sorry you're here too chere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Plan A has many parts. What parts are you doing?

I'm really trying to avoid being angry towards her. And also avoiding being disrespectful. I think avoiding demands is difficult, because any requests or suggestions I make are received as demands. I've asked her not to go out evenings to bars & such because it causes me great pain. This was taken as a demand, so it didn't happen. I've asked her to see a docter, because she is not eating right and her health is all messed up. But she won't, because she takes my concern as a demand. I've really asked her several times to consider marriage counciling, but she won't. So although I'm really trying not to be demanding, any request I make gets taken as a demand.

Beyond that, I guess my Plan A is simply reminding her that I do love her, and that I really want to try to make this marriage work and to meet whatever needs that I have been failing at.
Maybe I have a poor plan A....?

Star*Fish,
Thanks for responding.
I think I need more advise on Plan A.
Anyone have suggestions for my situation?

Hi freshpain,

I just wanted to say how sorry I am for all the heartache in your life.It seems that you have received much more than your share over the years.Ugh.I give you a lot of credit for sticking with your WW all this time but she sounds like a very troubled woman.

Until your WW gets into some serious counseling for her past and present issues,she will continue to make bad choices and hurt other's as well as herself.She is looking in all the wrong places for resolution and may even have an alcohol problem at this point?

You do need to ask yourself if you still want to endure a life with this woman.Your WW has not only cheated once but three times and she shows no sign of trying to figure herself out and making some healthy choices,especially for her children.I understand and appreciate how immense all the problems you have both gone through are but the path to a more fulfilling and happy life doens't reside anywhere but within herself.

Read the concepts here on this site and also keep reading SAA for Plan A clues.This is a plan to help negotiate the ending of the A.You are doing alright so far.No love busters(LB's),disrespectful judgments(DJ's),yelling or demands.Even though your WW is perceiving your requests as demands it doesn't mean they actually are.Ws's don't like to be told anything.They see it as controlling.Try to continue to be open to discussion,help her around the house,be kind,try not to be too emotional as ridiculous as that sounds.WS's perceive you as too needy and wimpy if you show too much emotion aroung them,it pushes them away,they don't want to deal with all that right up front.They are already emitonally messed up big time and an emotional wreck of a BS doesn't help.

I would also suggest getting the book HNHN(His Needs Her Needs) by Dr.Harley.This can give you some insight into EN's(emotional needs) that may not have been met in the marriage but in your case,there is a lot more going on for sure.

Hang in there,we're here for you.

O

freshpain,

Plan A has several parts that should be done simultaneously. Almost everyone knows about stopping lovebusters and filling needs (that the WS will allow). What most people forget to do...is to "confront" the affair. Tell your spouse how you feel and how much it hurts you. Make it about you: I feel_________when ________happens. And finally the part many people are unwilling to do: Exposure the affair. Affairs need secrecy to thrive. Is the OM married? If he is, you'd make the first call to his wife and make sure that the affair has pressure from both sides. If contact doesn't end, you'd call friends and family that can influence your wife to do the right thing.

Please get a copy of "Surviving an Affair" it describes both Plan A and Plan B. Ask any questions you have about them here. Be specific in your questions. Keep posting and bumping your thread up. Also...try posting as well on GQII...they have alot of good veterans there and you may get more help.

Good Luck chere.

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Octobergirl,
Thanks for responding. I'm really glad that I found this site. This is really the first I've been able to share my issues with anyone. You see, my three best friends in the world are my three sons. And I won't share any of this with them.
I don't know your story at all, but since you are here, I probably can just say I'm sorry for you as well, and that I hope you are doing ok.
Thanks for the advice on not being emotional in front of WS. I've always thought of myself as an even-keeled level headed guy. But this situation as really torn me apart. I really have been acting like a basket case. I'll be more aware of it now.
I don't have much time to respond today so I'll post more tomorrow.
I may try to move this to GQII if I can figure out how. So look for me there.

Star*fish,
Earlier on I have confronted the affair with her, and flat out told her how much pain I was in. I told her that it was like turning a knife in my heart anytime she walked out the door alone or with her ‘girlfriends’. It didn’t seem to matter any. She turned things around and said that I don’t have any idea of her pains. It seems to be a bit more than an affair we’re dealing with here.

She has told me that she would be honest with me. I want to believe that, but that’s even difficult. She seems to have slowed down on going out alone. I’d like to believe that she really has stopped seeing OM. It’s hard for me to tell anything for sure.

Exposure is a really difficult issue for me. I really don’t want our children to know anything at all. Although they suspect some troubles I’m sure. She has already distanced herself from her family. It really is like she has emotionally divorced each one of us. So even if I approached her family, and they tried to talk with her, she would not listen. I’m certain it would be a major LB for me. She would blame me for destroying any relationship she has left with them.

I guess that I understand Plan A’s goal is to get her to stop seeing OM. I think that may have happened now, but it’s tough to say for sure yet. But I think that Plan A also needs some level of commitment to reconcile. I haven’t gotten there yet. Last week she said that I would see a change in her, but it was for our youngest son’s sake, not mine. And that she needed to be a Mom to him again. This week, she expanded somewhat and said she needs to work on her relationship with all of our kids, and she needs to work on herself before she can work on anything else. (She still has refused MC.)
It all gets very fuzzy. I’m not sure where affair issues are vs. other issues she has been building up for years. It makes it difficult for me to know the right path. So I’m planning on a Plan A type approach, until I can get some commitment to reconcile.

All for now. Can I just move this whole topic to GQII?? (I’m not fluent in forums)
Thanks!

fresh,

The mods can move the thread....click one of the names at the top of this forum and ask them to move it for you. Otherwise, start a new thread on GQII and "link" this thread in your first post so that others can read this when responding to you. You can do that by typing [ URL] insert the address of this thread by copying the http:// information...then typing [ /URL ] (with no spaces.

Star*fish,
Thanks for your assistance in moving the thread. I’ve emailed a moderator to see about getting this over to GQII. I have also finished reading SAA. Good book, I’m in a Plan A …..

As days pass, I find myself thinking in all kinds of directions. I find it very difficult to figure out where I am most of the time. I guess right now, I have an increased sense of awareness or enlightenment that the affair of the summer really was another symptom of a larger problem. WW feels completely disconnected from everyone except our three sons. By things she has said lately, she is not sure why she is presently doing the things she is doing. She has about stopped going out for drinks, and is really focusing on caring for our three sons. She says she wants to do things for her, and not for anyone else, and she is not even certain inside why she is currently behaving this way. It’s like she’s returned to a Pre-A state of mind, trying to figure out what she wants. It seems very much about her, and what she is going to want. Is this normal?? And what’s strange is that with me being in Plan A, she gets the impression that I’m doing things as a result of seeing recent changes in her, and that I want things to go back to exactly the way things were.

Is it possible that by doing Plan A things like not being angry or disrespectful could actually be a LB in itself ????

This morning I felt the need to stress again to her that I really want to try and improve things. I just sent her the following note. Am I doing a major LB here???

“Dear xxxx,

I know you have a lot of issues going on now, but I’d just like you to know what I’m thinking about our marriage lately.

I’ve been reading a book by a really famous marriage counselor. His basic approach is not to try to resolve conflicts or issues past, but rather to restore love to a marriage by having couples identify and meet each others most important emotional needs. If you would like, you can take the book to read.

What I wanted to be sure that you know, is that I don’t want our marriage to return to the way things were. I’d love us to be able to try to work on improving our marriage and have the chance for happiness. I know that I am a bit of an emotional klutz, but I promise that given the opportunity I will try to improve.

Love, xxxx.”


I really do feel like an emotional klutz. I don’t feel skilled or equipped very well to deal well with these issues at all.
Suggestions for me here are more than welcome…..???

Ok, one more quick question.

In trying to do a good plan A, I'm feeling like I'm hiding how much I'm still hurting, how angy I still am, and how deeply the A has affected me.

Is it normal to feel almost deceiptful in trying a good plan A?

I have previously let her know in no uncertain terms how badly I was feeling, but now this plan A feels like I've put on my happy face to cover it all up.

No, I do not think Plan A should feel deceiptful, though it is very difficult. Please click on the link in my signature line, and read the Plan A links by Zorweb and Cerri. Do not forget, Plan A is temporary, and you are near the end of it. Start preparing for Plan B.

Any other input on any of my questions or what else I should be trying to do? I will read more on John's links....

Ok, I'm torn again today. Earlier I was feeling like the A was over. That she wasn't seeing OM anymore. Now tonight, she has gone to visit a girlfriend, and I am absolutely in panic. I'm guessing that it's not unusual to have such emotional swings? I don't really know anything new, but it's just a feeling that it doesn't seem quite right.
Anyway, any input on my situation is welcome.....
How does anyone manage to get thru a Plan A without feeling like they are just ripped into peices??

Hi,

Welcome to MB. Please get yourself into MC/IC counseling ASAP. I highly recommend you do some phone counseling with Jennifer or Penny @ MB.

Read: His Needs/Her Needs - Dr. W. Harley
Love Must be Tough - Dr James Dobson

Take the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Find out your ENs and your W's.

See what of the above is she willing to participate in.

Your statements of her being a great mom is not accurate while she is a WS. Her actions right now are very selfish. Face her real status and work with it.

Letting the children live in her environment is hurting them more than a separation from her anger.

Read up on plan B. Continuing a plan A while she is being soo cruel is not healthy for the family.

How are each of your children doing?

Please take care of yourself also.

L.

fresh pain,

The links that John sent you are really some of the best compilations from experienced posters on Plan A. They will answer so many of your questions.

There is a right way to end affairs...you read about that in SAA. Your wife hasn't done those things....and you suspect there has been more contact. Your marriage cannot reach recovery without and real end to the affair. If you become so afraid of losing her that you don't ensure a real end to the affair....your marriage will continue to flounder.

You are allowed to be angry, and allowed to express it...you simply cannot use love busters to do it....dishonesty, disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts etc.

Keep posting.

((((((((((freshpain))))))))))

Orchid,
Thanks for responding to me. It helps…..

I have not been successful so far in getting WW to commit to MC. I have been trying, but it just isn’t happening.

I’ve haven’t yet read His Needs/Her Needs, but I’ve read & studied SAA. I’m having a hard time getting any commitment to participate in any reconciling. Do you think HN/HN would help there at all?

I’ve shared the fact that I’ve been studying SAA with WW. It got a pretty negative response. She has no interest at this point. I don’t hold out much short term hope of her being interested or taking the EN Questionnaire. Knowing my needs certainly won’t help anything. Meeting my needs is about the last thing on her mind.

As far as WW as a Mom; Well, up until last spring, she has been the most loving/caring Mother you could possibly imagine. Our sons are our testament to this. They are the best possible young men you can imagine. Each is a caring, sensitive wonderful individual with a heart of gold. And yes, over the course of the summer, she had faltered as a Mom. But, she has at least made some effort recently to change that.

As far as our boys are concerned, I have been trying extremely hard to not let them know anything about what is going on. I haven’t been able to be a part of burdening them with something this ugly. I think my 13 year old is almost oblivious to any of this. I always try to hide my feelings and the situation completely around him. I’m sure he sees little bumps, but has no idea of the real scope of things. Our middle boy is 21, and is away at college. He knows things aren’t right at home, but I don’t think has any real idea of the scope either. Our eldest son is 24 now, and is out on his own. He knows more than the others. WW told him bits and pieces one night when she came home drunk. I don’t think he knows any details, but knows that she has treated me badly. I have not wanted to talk with him on the issues either. So in all of this mess, I think our children really have been pretty insulated.

I’m having trouble with the idea of the idea of exposure. Really on two fronts. First, I don’t want to expose any of this to our boys. It really is an absolute last resort in my mind. I can’t stomach the idea of bringing them in the middle of this. Secondly, is her family. I think they already have a pretty good idea of what has been going on. If I were to expose more details to them it would not help anyone. She really has already emotionally divorced each of them over the same time period. And she absolutely will not listen to any input from them. And beyond that, she would use my exposure involvement as a weapon against me for the rest of my life, irregardless of how things turn out between us.
Ok, so I don’t see hope for exposure on a third front either. She has just a few really close friends. She has already recruited several in cover-ups and alibis, and they are really helping to enable the A rather than discourage it.

I will read up more on plan B. I been giving it some thought, but I haven’t really come up with any acceptable options here yet.

I’m trying to hang in with Plan A as long as I possibly can.
Any other Plan A suggestions would help!!!

Star*fish,
Thanks also for continuing to respond to me…..

I have been reading the links John has sent. They are what made me aware of exposure as a tool. But I wrote above to Orchid my current thoughts on exposure.

Are there other tools or things I should be doing in Plan A to try to get her to really end the A??

You’re right, I suspect, and today am pretty sure there has been more contact. I received word from a ‘mutual’ friend that she, her best ‘girlfriend’ and OM were seen out at a bar drinking within the last two weeks. Seemingly pretty reliable info. And the night before last, she went to her old girlfriends house ( had just had surgery) an hour and a half away, and didn’t come home until 4:30am! She has smashed her cell phone, and left me no way to reach her. When she did come in she came up with this ‘story’ of getting into wine at her girlfriends, getting sick, and having to sober up before coming home. I did express my anger and disbelief, but I tried to keep my cool. My tongue is still bleeding. I guess I can figure where she was…..

As time ticks by, I don’t think that I am so afraid of losing her, it’s more that I’m afraid of losing my sons or at least seeing them damaged emotionally. When I look in the mirror, I see that it is as much (if not more) about saving a family as a marriage.

In John’s short response the other day, he made a statement that I was near the end of Plan A. I didn’t understand that at the time. I’ve given that a bit more thought as well. Even though I new nothing about MB, I may have actually started a type of Plan A way back on 7/2/04 when I first suspected and confronted her about the possibility of the A. I remember telling myself, that if she was or was even thinking about seeing someone, that I should get my s*** together and be the best husband I could. So even though D-day wasn’t until 9/6/04, I’m actually in my forth month of Plan A.

Does that sound right?? I hope so, cause it helps explain why I’m feeling so weary just 1 month from d-day. But I still see no alternative yet other than sticking with Plan A as long as I can.

I have been giving some thought to a Plan B, but that seems even worse than Plan A right now. I’m really really concerned with my 13 year old son if we end up in a plan B. I think going to a Plan B would bring our children smack in the middle of this, and things could quickly slide from Plan B right into a D with custody battles and all of that really ugly unhealthy stuff.

Freshpain.....

FP,

U need to realize that there are risks no matter what path you take. The one that enables the A will have greater damage.

Exposure initially appears to be harder but in the long run it lets the steam out of the A and helps it lose it's fantasy quicker. Plan B works in a similar way. It reduces the stress from the BS and family.

As for your children, realize that they trust you and if you break that trust by withholding info that may make them feel unworthy to help you and not feel needed. Nothing c/b further from the truth. The age of your children will determine how much you tell them but don't underestimate their ability to be your support system also.

My son was 6 years old and he was and is a great supporter to myself and even the WS (at the time). Our little one wrote a 4 sentence letter to his dad that was priceless. The impact went right through the fog but the thickness of the fog slowed down the effect. It took 2 1/2 more years before the WS turned back into a spouse. But it worked. It was part of the concentrated effort we did as a family. God's help worked wonders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Orchid,
Thanks for your response again.

I understand the affects that exposure can bring. But I still see all of the cons that go along with it. Especially where our children are concerned.

My hopes have been that the A would end without having to expose it to our children. WW has claimed to have stopped contact with OM. There-in lies my biggest problem right now. I cannot tell truth from the lies when she tells me anything. It sickens me to feel this way. It makes me really blind to what the real situation is at any given time. So that leaves me with a feeling that she is still seeing OM. Exposure would be more acceptable to me if I knew for sure where I stand right now. I have a hard time acting on something as explosive as exposure to our children when I have any doubts about what is actually happening. If I were to discover new absolutely certain evidence that there is ongoing contact, then I might consider exposure with at least my oldest son. I do trust him (actually all of them) with my life completely. I know, it’s a character flaw I have, needing lots of info/data before acting…..

As I continue to try to figure out the big picture in all this mess, I get a sense ( this is just me thinking here) that after the recover of my eldest son’s accident last year, that WW decided life was too short to be unhappy. She apparently has been unhappy with life with me and the rest of her family for some time. So she set out to be happy and be ‘who she really is’. Over the summer, ‘who she really is’ turned out to be a social butterfly, fluttering from bar to bar, socializing with everyone. And one of those ‘everyones’ turned into OM. Even since d-day, she is still holding onto this ‘who she really is’. ‘Who she really is’ still wants to ( and does, under my protest) go out with her ‘girlfriends’ and socializes.

So I’m not clear on the real reasons that she hesitating to participate in reconciliation. Is it just too soon?? I’m not sure. Is it because OM is still about?? Is this ‘who she really is’ person really her??

I’ve got one more question that I could really use some good advise on. To make a long story short, d-day happened only because I had growing suspicions, and ended up with a recording or conversations between WW and OM. Even on D-day, she continued to deny deny deny, until I revealed the tape. I really needed to do this to know for sure what was going on, and to have undeniable evidence when I confronted her. I still have it. Now, I don’t know what to do with it. I’m not sure why I even think I need to keep it anymore, but I’m reluctant to destroy it. She seems to think that I will hang this over her head forever, and afraid that I would share it with her family or our sons. I assured her I wouldn’t.
??????Any suggestions on this ‘tape’ situation??????

I’m still just a month past d-day. So I’m trying to pay some attention to WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses.
Rule 2: Don't be in a hurry.

Especially with exposure.

But it is really strange how things are happening so fast, but are so painfully slow?

All for now. I’m appreciating all responses.