Believer.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I am doing fine. I feel a bit more relax, since my husband is not battering me with things and questions. So, it is a nice little break. Although he calls me several times a day! He wants me to be there in Florida with him!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Where can I see the pictures of all of you???
How are you doing??
Myrta

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Here it is.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/faith1again/album?.tok=phk6YYBBZMumqobB&.dir=/37e6&.src=ph

Myrta:


But I just cannot believe, that no one will ever be happy if they go on and try to leave with the OM or OW!!! Even with all the deceit and lies involved, there must be some happy endings out there!!! Anybody here, with that ending?
Or everybody here was living in a fantasy

This is what you said when I told you about the statistics regarding the abysmal failure of relationships that were formed as a result of an affair. This is what the OM still says today! He will be different, he cannot believe the relationship will fail. Heck , he does not even believe he was having an affair. He is dead wrong and we all know it. The OM would make your life a true living hell.

I guess some affairs are so called exit affairs where the WW or WH was going to leave the marriage anyway. But even in this best case scenario the likelihood of success is very low.

Myrta--- you sensed a life with the OM was impossibility without having knowledge of the stats.

Stanley, I say this in all kindness.

Don't educate Myrta. It is an LB and makes you sound patronising.

She's a supremely sensible and obviously intelligent woman. She doesn't need to be told the obvious.

Sorry, if that was a 2x4 but at least it came from me and not Myrta. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen

kiwij------- you are right! I just have a hard time with OM and all this stuff. It consumes me 24/7.

Sorry Myrta!

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley - don't worry about it. That happens to all of us. Our world has been rocked.

I know you have a hard time with it all, Stan. It's all a rather steep learning curve for all of us.

But you have JL, Believer and me on the case. How can you fail? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And you know you have a damn fine wife there as well.

BTW have you read any of Bob Pure's posts on GQII? Well worth a read, if you haven't already.

Jen

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Myrta - Did you check out the MB picture album?

Believer, you're just trying to make Mytra say it's a cool bike. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen

BELIEVER!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> very cool indeed!!!
You still got the fun bike??? It must be fun to ride it!!
Thank you for the thread! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> But I thought I was also going to see the one and only JUST LEARNING!!!
THANKS

MYRTA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Kiwi---nice to see you back posting! Sorry if I hit a raw nerve in my previous post to you!
Only you and I, know what we are going thru. It is not an easy ride, even when you realize that it was all fantasy, that it was all lies. It is very scary that you and I , and others (CC,etc,etc) for NOTHING!!! For just a mirage!!!

Keep on talking and admonishing my husband! I like it!!!

Myrta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Myrta, someone once posted a picture of Captain Picard of Star Trek and said this is what JL looks like. LOL.

Jen

Kiwi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Oh really? Captain Piccard! Ok
ThATS funny!

Thanks

Myrta

Myrta- Yeah - what's up with that? No JL, and he has been posting here forever, and one of the best. Maybe he doesn't have a digital picture of himself.

You have any pictures of you and family?

Sadly the bike is gone with WH. But OW is enjoying it.

Believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> That is too bad your husband took that nice bike with him!!! Hopefully you have not seen them riding it together!! That will make me very angry!! But, I think you are beyond getting angry anymore, and thats good!!
Yeah, I was looking forward to see a pic of JL!! I am trying to put the way he writes into an image of how he looks like!!!
You look like you are really fun to be around. Your H is going to regret what he did. Dont stop been positive and happy because of what he did!!
Take care!
Myrta

Myrta - Glad to see you posting and helping others. That is very hard for many women to do when they are going through all of this themselves.

Is your husband still gone? Hope you are enjoying the peace and quiet.

I do miss riding. We used to go to rallies every weekend almost. But at least WH did get the new Harley he always wanted.

Myrta,

Let's just say I am not photogenic <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> hence no picture. Heck, that is a pretty good looking bunch of folks there, and I definitely don't want to detract from it.

You asked a few questions so I thought I would do my best to answer them. You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JUST LEARNING===I HAVE read your post several times, trying to absorbe everything you tell me. To truly understand the meaning of your words.
You tell me that the horrible woman that I described, does not exist any longer. This is a new woman, or I should say my old self. Out or almost out of the fog, seeing things clearly for what they really are.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, that is what I am saying. Yet, it is clear to you that you are capable of being that other woman. Hence your H's fears. But, Myrta things are more complicated than that as you well know. I realize you had deep feelings for your OM. I would offer you this very strange perspective to think about. If you had a two year affair with someone you did not care about, THEN I would be really worried. I Know your H worries about your emotional attachment to OM, and he should, but if you had NONE, he would have reason to worry as well, because then the issues would be very very deepseated and not ameanable to the MB approach. So there is as usual "good news" and "bad news". Do you see what I am saying?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One question that I have for you, Mr.JL...are all affairs fantasy,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, they are fantasy in that the world does not know about them, the couple in the affair is NOT required to support their affair partner, financially, emotionally, with children, family, etc. So the interaction is usually about one person in the affair meeting only a FEW needs of the other person. Now while in the affair these needs seem to be the most important, but when the affair ends it is often seen that other needs are important as well, and the spouse meets those and is willing to meet the ones that were not well met.

So the "fantasy" of an affair is always there, in that the situation is surrounded by secrecy, limited needs being met. That does not mean the feelings are not real, they are. It does not mean the sex was not real it was. But, like a marriage it will not stand the light of day if the couple is NOT addressing the others needs. And by definition they usually don't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> are all affairs based on lies?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Myrta, ALL is pretty big, but didn't you lie to Stanley both directly and by implication? Didn't you lie to him to go see his mother, when you wanted to meet OM? Frankly I have not encountered an affair that was not based on lies to those around the affairee's and even within the affair itself. So I quess my answer is yes, although someone will probably post that their spouse knew everything, and was told what was going on. You make the determination.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Has there been a happy ending for someone having an affair?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This depends on what you mean by a happy ending. If you mean the affair couple getting divorced from their spouse and living happily ever after? The statistics say only about 3% of affairs lead to a successful marriage (I beleive that is defined as lasting 5 years or longer).

If you mean the current marriage can be rebuild and the couple end up happy, then yes there are many cases here.

If you mean that the affair was an exit affair and the person used the affair to get out of the marriage and ended up happy with another person, perhaps NOT the OM/OW, then yes it seems to happen but I don't know the data on it.

I have read that most people that have an affair and divorce eventually state that they wished they had stayed married to the original partner. I cannot tell you the numbers on that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Or do they go on and on, doing the same mistakes to the new people, been unfaithful to them,etc,etc?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect that what you have mentioned are a few of the reasons that marriages to the affair partner don't work. There is a saying that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you marry the person you are having the affair, you are creating a vacancy for your position. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not saying that my A was not a fantasy, or Disneyland like my husband likes to call it. But I just cannot believe, that no one will ever be happy if they go on and try to live with the OM or OW!!! Even with all the deceit and lies involved, there must be some happy endings out there!!! Anybody here, with that ending?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said about 3% fall into the class you mention. A small percentage of people in an affair actually marry. Of those that do, the failure rate is about 75%. It is a small number, because little is learned and there is a huge trust issue..."if they will do it with you, they will do it to you" is another common statement.

I think the real reason is that people expect things from relationships that are not realistic and the new person ends up not able to provide it any better than the first spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or everybody here was living in a fantasy, not feeling real love, or in this fog, that you would not even see yourself!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hard to know what to say, but the "fog" is about making unrealistic decisions based on partial or faulty data. It is not about the feelings being real. Hence Harley's strong statements about No Contact. He believes that some embers of the affair can exist for a persons life time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband fears the fog? No, I think my H fears me!!! He has told me himself. He gets sweaty palms sometimes when he is close to me, like he is some impressionable teenager!!! I make him uncomfortable. And that scares me!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, in someways he is a teenager right now. He is very uncertain about himself. He doesn't understand what is going on. He wants to impress but he doesn't know how. Sound familiar?? It should.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh, we have been together forever!!!! Just because I derailed from our marriage does not mean,, I am or was another woman. I have always been the same!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Myrta you opened up new vista's with your derailment and so your are not the same completely. You care about him, you say you love him, and that you want him, but what he KNOWS for a fact is that you can chose another man and love him. That is pretty unsettling don't you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I mean, it is kind of sweet ,cute, to see him nervous in front of me, like he is just knowing me now!! He looks at me like he has never seen me before I still see him like my same old husband, the onlly difference is that he is more passionate, more humble with me, he is more talkative, he is more into me, but he is still my Husband. I dont look at him as a stranger,even though he is acting different!!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well Myrta he is different, just as you are. If nothing else he is far more sensitive to you and to his own vulnerability. You may not feel more vulnerable, but he does. Don't you see why he is focusing on OM? He is trying to figure out how to control this situation. He thinks if he can get you to dislike OM, he will be safer. He thinks if he can understand what OM had that he did not, he can be more like OM so that you will be happy with him.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do listen to him, or I try to. But sometimes the way he puts his words, makes me want to back away from him. Makes me want to close up. He tells me that he is not angry, that he does not want to fight, but yet I hear his tension, I see anger in his eyes. I know him very well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure you are right he is angry, but you must realize that anger is a "secondary" reaction driven by "primary" ones, such as fear, frustration, pain, etc. So what you see is NOT what is really there. He is tense as you are or would be because he does not understand sooo much. He doesn't understand if he is really a man you want or not. These things go through peoples minds Myrta. So what you are really seeing are his struggles with himself. Not so much you.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know nobody knows whats the future holding for us. But most of the people, with normal marriages, have a pretty good idea, they are fearing the break up. Why should I thinking that be a DJ????

That is my oppinion!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are entitled to your opinions, but if you make decisions based on what YOU THINK your H is thinking, then it is a DJ. It is very dangerous to the marriage. Do you want an example? Consider why you had the affair, you claimed it was because you felt your H did not care or love you, but clearly you were wrong. But an A occured based on this right? If not correct me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could say the same thing, when you or him say things about me, and I dont agree with them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, first of all I cannot LB you because I am not married to you. Further NOT agreeing is not a DJ. It is making a decision based on an assumption. I say something to you that you don't agree with, and you correct me, that is cannot be a DJ, because I now KKNOW how you are thinking or your view of things. Now if your H says something really tacky, that is a plain old LB, and he needs to stop it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not saying that I am holding back my love for him. I just cannot let myself go, because I see that things are too uncertain, too shaky, too weird. And that makes me withdraw to myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is normal and it is called withdrawal. However, as you become more confident with your H, I do hope you can "let yourself go", it is what he is seeking for reassurance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The love that I offer him now, is the love that I can let myself give him NOW. I do love my husband, sometimes I look at him, and see him and cannot believe that he is here with me,that he still loves me, and I get filled with all this love,affection for him. And I would like to kiss him, tell him, but I get scared.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, if ever there was a time to kiss, that would be it. And you can tell hm you are scared as well. It is not an LB to do both, in fact that is precisely the type of "opening up" that will help both of you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only times, that I let myself go, is when we are in church, in front of God. I feel so close to him, so in tune with him.
No, I dont have plans of continuing the affair. And NO I am not planning to quit US. My fear is that he will be the one quitting on US. I dont get scare with challenges of life, but I know my husband, and I know he has so many thoughts,ideas going thru his mind, and I KNOW, one of them, is not trying anymore!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Myrta I am glad you are close to your H while in church. It is a good place to start. But let me explain something, if Stanley came in tomorrow and told you he could NOT try anymore, the marriage would not be over. You could do the trying for the both of you. You could carry him for awhile until he regains his energy and focus. After all to some degree that is what he did and is doing, until you reengage fully in this marriage. So fearing this is not necessary.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL,,thank you so much for taking the time, to try to help ME, us!!! You are indeed a very smart person, very knowledgable!! I want to grow up to bejust like YOU </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, you don't understand yet, but I will try and explain this to you. I ENJOY helping you and Stanley, nothing would make me happier than you two getting this marriage rebuilt and the both of you very very happy with each other. I cannot explain it any further, but seeing you two make it is a big reward to me.

As for growing up to "be just like" me. Please don't, your H is NOT interested in being married to a 6'4" , 250 pound MAN that is older than he is. :rolleyes" I don't know much, but I KNOW he finds you far more attractive and enticing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

JL:

Went to a ball game this PM, the last of the season. My wife talked a lot during the game------ I listened to her and hardly followed the game. She was in a playful mood and gave me extra details so now things make more sense to me. There is plenty more, but I don't know when she will talk again. She is very remorseful and that makes me sad. In a way I want her to be happy. I asked her is she was happy and said “not quite”. She then said: “But you are also unhappy!”.

I look at her and I cannot help myself----------------- I am overcome by my love for her. Then within an instant I am assaulted by doubts. Is she going back to the affair one of these days? She says, “no way you are the better man“, but that is not the issue. She was in an addiction-------------- this was the thrill of her life---------------- a major adventure that she has given up. It is not so much that I am a better man. I worry because I cannot provide the same thrill and excitement. Let me rephrase that----------------------- I think I can do better than the OM, but at the same time it all goes back to the brand new sports car versus the 30-year-old sedan analogy.

She then said that at the end the OM was traveling so often that she was getting stressed out and that she now sees how hard it was to lead a double life.

Part of her remorse has to do with hurting the feelings of the OM.

BTW, the OM called my daughters his daughters when talking to Myrta. OM also atached his surname to my wife's name (Myrta). This guy was either very foggy or perhaps was an egomaniac!

<small>[ October 03, 2004, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

JustLEARNINING <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Thats funny that you say you are not photogenic. Post your pic anyways,let us be the Judges!!! We wll putting ours soon too!
I dont think I am capable of being that other woman anymore. I WAS capable, but not a nymore. After seeing all the damage that I have caused my husband and also to myself and to the OM too. He might be a jerk, a smooth talker, the worst, but he is also suffering now. I dont like to see people hurt , I like it even less if I am the cause of the pain! I think I have changed in these four months. Yes, maybe I still think of the OM, I might be still in withdrawal, but to go back to that, NOOO!!!
I like my husband to feel young with me, but I dont want him to feel insecure with himself. One thing that always attracted me to him, was his good self esteem. I like men to be very sure of themselves, know their worth!!!
I tell him over and over again, that HE is the better man, he is more good looking, my husband is a medical doctor,the other one works part-time as a policeman,although he has a business, my husbannd has always been faithful, the OM hasn't! So in every sense my HUSBAND is the BETTER MAN!!!
He wants me to give him proof that I will not change my mind!!! How can I give him proof of that?? I just can tell him, and he has to be lieve me!!
You are right in saying that it would be very scary that I was with the OM for two years and there were no feelings. That would make me an animal!!! Of course there were feelings, but those feelings are dissolving, those feelings are starting to dissapear! I still dont hate the OM, like he wants me to! I dont think I will ever hate him. I know that because of HIM there was a lot of damage done to my marriage, but it was not only his fault, I allowed him to do the damage.
My husband is much more sensitive now. He has never been the way he is now. He asks me all the time, how do I feel, what am I thinking. Looks concern and worry about me.
Today we went to a BB game, and we could not go to Mass. I dont like skipping mass, especially now, since like I told you I feel the best when I am in it. My oldest daughter took our 12 year old to mass. But we had a good time in the field, had hot dogs and italian sausages for lunch and I talked to him a lot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> He liked that a lot!!
It is so sweet of you, that you really want to help get thru this. You are such a nice man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am sure your wife thinks you are "priceless". Is she possesive with you??? How long you had been married, JL???
Take care and God Bless!

MYRTA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Myrta:

I am going to pretend to be JL, but I will obviously have a bias.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t think I am capable of being that other woman anymore</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, I also believe that you are not capable anymore. The only difference is that I have lost all confidence. You often say I look at you in a way that makes you wonder what I’m thinking. Why do I give you that unusual glare? I think I do it without even knowing it is happening. It probably means that I am very insecure. You often catch me looking at your eyes and probably think I am in awe of their beauty. Well, that is true, but I am also looking for a sign that tells me I have nothing to worry about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After seeing all the damage that I have caused my husband and also to myself and to the OM too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, I will survive this quite well, just give me some time. Remember the positive side as well. I now enjoy my sexuality in my 50s quite a bit. You are correct, I feel young!

You admitted today that part of your remorse has to do with hurting the OM. The OM is hurting because he fell in love with you. However, initially he wanted something else and he accomplished his objective.

OM was soooooooooo interested in our children. Well Myrta, that is part of the smooth talk. Yeah, he even wanted to have a deep conversation with our daughter (who plans to go to Europe next year) to give her some advice about life. Hmm-

Don’t worry about the OM. he said he has gone thru this many times before. It all comes with the territory.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He might be a jerk, a smooth talker, the worst, but he is also suffering now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t think he is suffering as much as he says he is. However, if he is suffering have no regrets------------ He asked for it. He had plenty of chances to avoid the pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He wants me to give him proof that I will not change my mind!!! How can I give him proof of that?? I just can tell him, and he has to be lieve me!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta, I have no fear of the OM. I just worry about the addiction to the thrill, the adventure----------- The chance to re-live the adolescence with the mind of an adult. You told me many times this was one of the most exciting things you have done in your life. Taking trips to far away places and having secret meetings on the beach, ect. Who wouldn’t like that exotic lifestyle. I worry about that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course there were feelings, but those feelings are dissolving, those feelings are starting to disappear! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if they never go away? Then what? The adventure begins again. This is why I am insecure. The only thing I have to hold on is what I see in the eyes of Myrta when she talks to me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I talked to him a lot! He liked that a lot!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, Myrta was very nice about this and I could feel she was relaxed and did not feel I was threatening her. I feel my wife Myrta will keep opening up. I just have to keep waiting----- she is so special!

<small>[ October 03, 2004, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>