Aussie, Stanley and other BH's. You often ask this question.

First disclaimer: This is MY opinion only - I'm not your wives. Second disclaimer: The only detail my H wanted was time frames and a rough idea of where it all took place. The "intimate" detail he wanted was very broad. It is my opinion this helped our recovery but everyone is different in what they need to know. And if you need to know, you need to know.

Fear - if you tell all the detail you think that your H will leave you instantly because it will be too hard for them to ever forgive you.

Guilt - bringing up the A makes you face what you've done and if you have any conscience at all, it's very hard to face how you've hurt another person. It is VERY uncomfortable to talk about intimate details of the A. It feels like sticking the knife into the BH and turning it around over and over again.

Unwanted memories - talking about a specific incident takes you back to the moment when the OM looked in your eyes and told you you were beautiful etc etc. (I know that's the puke making one but it happens).

And why we deny the OM was a loser? Main reason, no one likes to think they've been used by a jerk.

I'd be interested in your comments.

Jen

<small>[ October 13, 2004, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Kiwi---I second everything you say. Those are exactly my thoughts. It is rather embarrassing to be giving your husband details,,intimate ones, with another man!!!
You think, the more I tell him, the more disgusted he is going to be. My husband likes the sexual details, the time frames, the places, everything!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Do you really think your OM is a jerk? A bad person?
Take care
Myrta

Myrta and KiwiJ:

Not really into sexual details anymore. After seeing the OM's photo I wanted to believe the sex was mediocre. Now I understand the sex was spectacular so I rather not know the details of that. However spectacular sex is all between the ears and not related to acrobatics in bed. Spectacular sex happens when the couple is emotionally well connected.

The woman OM was dating before Myrta said the OM was a cow in bed--- well below average. Same man, same physical abilities. I suspect the emotional connection between these two was not that good anymore, as the OM had fallen in love with Myrta.

By the same token as Myrta fell in love with the OM she gave me average sex---------------- she was not emotionally connected. In turn I also gave her mediocre sex because I sensed she was distant and uninterested.

BTW, the day after D-day Myrta made love to me with a passion I had not felt in a long time. The sex was spectacular------- same woman, different circumstances------ different sensations between the ears.

So enough about the sex. OK the OM was a stud in bed-------fine!

What I want to know are the details that directly affect me and what I was doing at the time.

I want to know how the OM convinced Myrta to get me out of the country so he could have Myrta all by himself without my interference. How did that transaction developed?

I want to know how often he came to town so I can piece the time line together and see if I can explain why things developed the way they did. For example one night I wanted to make love to Myrta very badly and she refused me very vigorously. I was completely puzzled as this has never happen before. I tried again next day and got the same reply. She was uneasy, very negative, almost like a cornered animal. Was the OM in town during those two days? Is that why Myrta had to say no in such a violent manner?

I can go on and on with circumstances like that. It is not about details about sex. I want to know what happened to my life during all that time. I was severely affected by the events and I think I should know why things turned out that way. Otherwise I am in the dark!

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Wow Stanley, I know where your coming from. I actually broke down last week and asked for the bedroom details. I told myself I was tired of imagining them together in what amounted to an X-rated flick, so finding out about the real deal would keep the imagination at bay. She demured though. Said it was awkward and she was nervous and knew she was doing something that was wrong. This was weeks after criticizing me extensively as a lover in the immediate aftermath of D-Day (Pre-MB days for me). You're right though, it is between the ears, and similarly after I made my way home in the wake of the A we had some of the best sex ever in our marriage. It has since dried up though. WW says she hasn't been in sexual mood lately and besides that's what got her in this mess. I think it actually has to do with the fact that there is still the remnants of an EA there. We're in the early weeks of Plan A.

Myrta, hi.

Do I think the OM is a jerk and a bad person?

Definitely a jerk. Mainly because he set out to seduce me with every intention of disposing of me when things got too "heavy". A jerk because I was completely taken in by the smooth words, the charming way my needs were met. I fell for the whole romance thing, hook, line and sinker.

My H told me a story after d-day. It was about a guy he worked with (that I know). This (married) guy was well known all over the office for the way he picked up women, married, single - it didn't matter to him. A new girl started at the office who came from another branch office. She had heard all the stories but she told a friend that NO WAY would he ever get near her. About 2 weeks later she told the same friend "You guys just don't know what he's like. He's so understanding, he really listens and he's told me that with me it's different and he's never felt like this before."

That is one grade A jerk and I think the OM in my case was on a par with that.

A bad person? No, not a bad person. A misguided, cowardly, emotionally stunted person, but not a bad person.

Jen

Zoomie:

Don&#8217;t worry about the sex part. All OMs and WWs put up their best effort in the affair. They want to leave a very good impression and they only show their good side. By definition everything is magical within the Disneyland atmosphere of the affair. It is nothing like a husband and wife making love after they both worked like dogs for 14 hours and they have seen each other faces for over 10 years and the kids are sick and perhaps there is no money to pay the bills. All these things are absent from the sex session of the folks in the affair. They don&#8217;t see each other all the time- so the encounters are special. It is all about fun and nothing else! All the other normal stresses of life are blocked out and the OM may secretly take a half a bottle of Viagra to appear like a stud in front of the WW. It is nothing but a fantasy based on nothingness.

KiwiJ= <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
He is a jerk, because he set out to seduce you? But, remember that in all these things or affairs, you need "two to tango"! I mean, he did not put a gun to your head!!! You willingly let yourself be seduced!!! I am not denying my actions, or my faults in the affair, by husband knows this. There are just some people, that let others "manipulate" their actions. But there are some others (like my husband and Aussie2) or so they say, know when to stop. They cannot be manipulated to do anything, does not matter how smooth talker the other person is. Theyjust know when to stop!
In your case, I thought your OM wanted you to end your marriage so you could have a life together. I did not know, he left when things got difficult!
I still dont think all OM and OWs are jerks or creeps, or bad people. I am sure my OM was, but I am not going to think everyone is the same!!!
Myrta

I was completely taken in by the smooth words, the charming way my needs were met. I fell for the whole romance thing, hook, line and sinker.

That is one grade A jerk and I think the OM in my case was on a par with that.

A bad person? No, not a bad person. A misguided, cowardly, emotionally stunted person, but not a bad person.

Wow, that is what I call a woman who is not foggy anymore. Good old JL would be proud!

Myrta is almost there----- Praise the Lord!

By definition any man who dates married women cannot be a good guy. So all OMs are jerks. Would any woman in MB want a guy like that to marry one of their daughters? I don&#8217;t think so!

Stanley, Zoomie, you posted while I was posting.

My H has said exactly the same thing. What was he doing while all this was going on. He needed to make sense of 2 years of his life that had gone missing. I understood why he wanted time lines so badly and (this is before I found MB) but it did come out in dribs and drabs and not all at one time - which I now know is dragging on the pain.

My A was so NOT about sex. It was about romance and adventure and excitement. It was like being a teenager again. The sex was mediocre because the OM was CRAP but it was very emotionally intense. The hand holding and the kissing and the gazing into each other's eyes what was kept me going back. The fact he thought everything I said was the cleverest, funniest, most interesting thing he'd ever heard was what kept me going back.

Interestingly, my H knows how to make me climb the walls sexually and I was fully aware of that during the whole A.

Jen

KiwiJ:

This is what Myrta said about the smoothness of the OM:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He had a good way of conversing, he truly looked interested in what I had to say, my husband did not". He took the time to know me, he was very gentle with my heart, he worshipped the ground I walked on, spent time with me without having sex. He made me feel like I was the only one on earth.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, Myrta states that the sex was out of this world. In fact Myrta states that she embraced the romance to justify the sex. A little bit different, don&#8217;t you think? Early on I wanted to believe the sex was bad. I guess all BHs want to believe that. I wanted Myrta to tell me I was better, however I slowly realized that there is no way that a couple that has been around for 30 years can have sex in the same explosive manner as a couple that is brand new. However, I still believe in the long run OMs are poor lovers and that is why they must be unfaithful. Here is what I said in another thread:

Most of these OMs have a history of infidelity. When the tough gets going in their relationship they bail out! In a paradoxical manner these OMs also want to be told how great they are on a regular basis (and the WW provides that with great regularity). They want to be told they are great lovers and they seek the gratification of romantic enchantment 24/7. As soon as the latter is gone in their relationship they don&#8217;t tough it out. That is why relationships with OMs tend to fail outside the context of the affair. I would like one of those OMs to make love with that intensity to a woman they have known for 30 years------- ain&#8217;t gonna happen!

Most OMs appear to be great lovers in the affair, but when you contact other prior women who were involved with them you almost always find out a man who is selfish, dishonest, and not a very good in the sac.

<small>[ October 01, 2004, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley, I'm not denying the sex wasn't intense but, seriously, he just wasn't much good. In my mind I thought "if we get together (OM and I) I will have to put up with this (sex) for another 20 years." My H had been around (a lot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) before he met me. He genuinely likes women and genuinely likes making me climb the walls. Even after 30 years it's still as exciting as ever.

The reality if we got together and all the excitement of secret meetings, hand holding etc had worn off - would be total boredom.

Myrta, I was the one who wanted him to leave his w. OM told me right from the start that he loved his w spiritually and every other way and that he would never leave her. But he'd always wanted to have sex with me because we never did when we were teenagers. He thought we should "get it out of our systems" and move on. He told me he'd loved me since he was 15. (I know that doesn't quite fit with loving his w totally but that's the fog for you.) I thought (duh) I could change his mind. And now I wonder why I ever wanted him to leave his w. You are quite right, he didn't hold a gun to my head but the A didn't happen overnight. It took 3 months of smooth talking and secret lunches before I was too far gone to turn back. I take full responsibility for the choice I made although at the time I put it down to "we're meant to be, this is out of my control, blah, blah, blah".

Jen

Stanley,

Sorry--I just found this thread--a little late. I just wanted to add my .02, since I'm a WW. I've offered to tell my H anything he'd want answers to. I'm open to discussing any part of the A that he'd want to know about. He still doesn't really talk about it. We discussed this in MC, and I again said that I'd answer anything he asked me. The MC asked us to reverse roles for a minute. I told my H that if I were he, I'd be asking away. I'd have asked a million questions when he first told me. I'd be crushed that he turned to someone else, outside of our marriage, but I'd be trying to figure it all out at the same time. My mind doesn't stop until I have closure and things are completely worked out.

I'm interested to know why you'd think that all WW's wouldn't want to talk about their A's. Is it just everything you initially stated in this thread? If so, mark me down as NOT feeling that way at all. I'd gladly share any details if it meant that my H would get some questions answers or some closure to his nightmare. HTH.

CC

This post might be a bit harsh some time. But thats how truth sounds.....

Well ladies and gentlemen
An OMs point of view about OMs :

WAS I A JERK ???
YES AND A THIRD RATE ONE. (PArticularly to her Marriage )

Why ?
I should not have involved with a married woman out of shape with 2 kids and that too as her fourth OM losing all my values and things that i believed to have some fun and at the end not even having it (sarcasm) .( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> i did not have sex with her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> even though after some time into the A she pressurized me)

EVERY OM IS A JERK MYRTA - ACCEPT THAT. LOSERS ONLY GOTO THIS EXTEND. I WAS A LOSER IN THAT PERIOD OF MY LIFE.

AM I A GOOD MAN ???

SO SURE. I AM THE BEST MAN A WOMAN CAN GET , educated, itelligent , with a top IQ , witty and above all I AM A CERTIFIED ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) MB LURKER (Man this place is soo addictive, JL do you know how to cure this ?? ). I now understand what a marriage is and how it has to be. I accept what i did and have come out of that successfully. Why i did what i did? -> because of depression , low self esteem and all the problems in life thrown
at the same time at a young age.


KIWIJ has summarized that very well.


MYRTA do you know why stanley wants to know all the details?

It has nothing about sex.

Its about what he was doing all the time when you set him up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Its about having been fooled for a coupla years by the one he trusted to the core and who was there for him for all his life. That makes things hard for him. Myrta i am not posting here to hurt you. i am just giving my perspective as the OM and more as a man.

Stanley feels like being robbed of 2 years of his life. He wants to get a big picture of this whole mess. Men are like that myrta, they are problem solvers, if stanley does not know about the whole thing how can he solve the puzzle????
Have u read the joseph's letter? . It summerizes that well.

Myrta , he has doubts. Big ones. About his future along with you and he is no longer sure of your love towards him. He does not know you now. He does not know what will happen in say 5 years. He does not know why you are staying in this marriage if you are head over heals with OM. What if he comes to find out in 10 years that you did not love him all these 10 years and you stayed in the marriage only to save your face in the society, money and kids????
Can you see that view point of him?
See this whole picture from his point of view, lady.

He is in pain myrta. Your words mean nothing.
You telling him " I am in the marriage 100%" mean nothing to him. You were in the marriage all these time. You were in the marriage for the past 2 years also. Your actions mean everything. Every small gesture mean a lot .
Myrta - tell him everything.

If he needs to forgive you , he need to know what he is forgiving you.

If he needs to accept the A , he needs to know what he is accpeting.

All the best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
dhanush

Yeah KiwiJ

I can understand the entire process that my w goes through and it would seem to be much as you describe.
But even understanding that I seem to want conformation of the time & place over and over again.
Details we have been through and she is very fuzzy there. She was drunk on each occasion and not just tipsy or happy drunk I mean total absolutely wasted.

Frankly there are times when I think she has done well to even realise she had sex at those times. For someone who does not drink at all she did a good job of remembering any details. However after the first time she did deliberately get drunk to have sex with the OM & yes puke time to discuss it.

My questions come from a deep distrust I now have of her and while she works where she does I just have no confidence it wont happen again. Ok the OM now lives in another state , but while she works at such a high intensity area of child protection what confidence can I have she wont make the same choice when things get crazy at work & home?
Because she won’t leave and if I make her all I will have is a very resentful wife who says I get to do what I want but she can't. Yeak well I didn't cheat.....so the argument goes

The times she had sex coincide with my operations to put my leg and ribs back together after being medvaced home. Do you wonder why I feel lack of trust? I can and have to a very large extent forgiven the actions which amounts to a number of ONS, however that doesn’t resolve the problems with a wave of a magic wand…………..I wish it did & I’m sure she feels the same way. In fact she has said over and over just like Myrta does, she wants it to just all go away so we can get on with our lives and she says I have not forgiven her and she doubts I will ever really do that totally

Kiwi---ok, I understand now. So, you all along knew that he would never leave his wife!! But you thought you could make him change his mind. And because he did not change his mind, and he did not divorce his wife to be with you, HE IS A JERK? zYou always knew his intentions, he did not lie to you! He was always very clear, that he would never leave the wife.
I am sorry you had that bad experience with him. Maybe thats why you get down and feel bad more often than you want. You think you got fooled by him, but you were not and I think that even without the smooth talk ,it would had happen. Because you both wanted to happen.
Kiwi, YOU and I, are going to be just fine. You have a very good husband and so do I. We had been given a second opportunity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And you better take advantage of it.
Take Care!
Myrta

dhanush-- I understand everything you say. And I am trying to be honest with my husband. I am talking more and more each day. The more I read here, the more I understand him.
But,.......I still dont think all OMs and OWs are horrific people.
Are u sure you are not an OM still? Or, were you an OM that was deceived by a OW??? Whats your story? Other than telling us all your qualities......... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
By the way I also feel insecure about my future with Stanley. We are going thru this together. Only God knows what the future holds. Not even JL knows!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Myrta

Myrta,

I know you don't think OM is horrific, but let me ask you this. What would you think if OM got what he wanted: to destroy your marriage,so that Stanley was gone, your children now a product of a divorce, and there father only there on weekends or perhaps every other weekend.

It could have come to that, and OM would have been delighted because he then would have a chance at you, with your H out of the way.

Now does this sound like a "nice" guy? He was/is a huge threat to your marriage and your family and he WANTED to be that threat so that your marriage would end.

What you have not figured out yet, is that YOU did not have a say in whether the marriage made or not once your H found out. He could have just as easily left you and the OM would have been very happy for that. In fact, that is what he wanted. Now you worry that Stanley might give up and leave, but you don't equate such a decision with OM and his presence in your life. It was the intentional presence of OM, that has set up this worry for you.

Now in any other situation he MAY be a nice guy, but he was a liar (to his W, to you, and to his other OW, that I know of). He wanted your marriage ended, and your family split up. He was and is a menance to your marriage, he is NOT a nice guy, when it comes to your marriage or family, and it really does NOT matter if you would have left Stanley for OM, OM would have been just as happy for Stanley to leave you. He continued contact with you for JUST that purpose. He begged you to leave Stanley for just that purpose.

His goal was to destroy your family and marriage.

Think about that for a second. Just for one second stop and think about what his goals for you were. The end of your family and your marriage. Sounds like a man with YOUR best interests at heart doesn't it? Sounds like a man with your children's best interest at heart doesn't it? And he sure as heck did not mind hurting your H and continuing contact to see if he could convince you to leave Stanley after D-day. Got a clue why Stanley might not like him, that he might view him as a very evil man? Got any idea why even to you he was NOT a good man, but of course you don't see the end of your marriage or family as a bad thing right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Of course you know it would have been and it was OM's goal to accomplish just that.

Please think about that Myrta.

JL

<small>[ October 04, 2004, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Aussie, it's interesting you said - what if things go bad with us again and she turns to someone else again. I have learnt a lot about protecting our marriage since MC and since being here. I know we are going to need constant vigilence and communication to make sure our marriage never reaches the stage it was in pre-A. Our MC told us that every single marriage has to be protected, even 50 year ones. And people forget to do it. Right now we are going through a rather bad patch. It has to do with being a couple of weeks from the anniversary of D-day and also to do with our daughter who has just gone through a relationship break up. She has now fallen for the office "jerk" (single but still a jerk). My H just cannot believe she is being so gullible and it is bringing back a whole lot of very unpleasant memories for him. BUT we are talking about it which we wouldn't have done pre-A. It's tough and painful but we're determined to get through this particular "nasty" bit.

Myrta, the OM wasn't a jerk because he wouldn't leave his w, he's a jerk because he knew how I felt but kept on contacting me. I NEVER contacted him - it was sort of my test to see if he was driving the A or I was. He gave me mixed messages and played "chicken" with me. For example, he'd look at my hand and say "still wearing your ring?" or "how do you really feel about H." We broke it off so many times, had month breaks to see if we could "end it", but he always kept a door open or called before the month was up. Even when the OM "broke it off finally" he left a "we can still be friends and meet for lunch opening."

The only thing that really stopped it was when my H called his w to tell her everything.
This is all quite painful for me - it's making me look at myself and how I really see love. I always saw it as the stuff that keeps you going when a child is vomiting all night, when a teenager is too late home or arrives home obviously drunk, it's when your son drops out of school and you still have each other and are a totally united front. But it wasn't protected enough when the really big one happened. Losing our parents in one year was just too much for us to cope with. But with what I know now, we could cope with that or anything else.

Our MC said "ask each other for what you want." If you're not coping with a life situation admit it, ask for a hug, ask for support. And now we do just that. It's getting us through the current sitch with DD and before MC and MB I don't know how we'd have coped.

Jen

Jen, I understand you, I know you are having a bad time thinking about everything.
Dont feel so bad anymore. You dont think my OM and I also try to break-up? We broke up several times, because he and I knew we were hurting people. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
And he would call or I would call and we would start up again. It was too hard to break it. He was as hooked as I was. I am sure he knew and knows that he was hurting my marriage, but he got too involved with his feelings and emotions to stop it. We got in too deep.
Yes, marriages do need protection. I think most of the people take it for granted. I am scared too, that my husband might want to get back at me, and have an affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> We have to be very caring and loving, for things to go well. We must appreciate everything!! even the bad things, in our marriage.
Take care!
Myrta

P.S. (It is too bad about your daughter! She has
to take a break and be by herself for a
while)

Myrta & Jen

I think that is a really deep seated fear I have that my H, Aussie, will not realy be committed to our m in the future.
I would not be surprised if he had an affair not so much for revenge as such but rather that he'd see it as I broke our vows then I can only expect the same level of commitment as I gave him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Its probably not true but like Myrta says who really knows what the future will be.