Stanley- I misunderstood you.

More later.

Ok, let me try again.....

By the way- I hope that you and Myrta are having a nice evening. My husband just left for work, the kids are watching a tv show before I herd them off to bed so I have a minute- and this has been on my mind.


I agree with that, but perhaps you misunderstood me-------- if you ask Myrta my happiness has never been dependent on her or anyone else. I am quite happy with myself and according to her I had very high self-esteem. However, when 100% of my grief and pain is due to what my wife did I would think that some of her actions could improve the way I feel. If she chooses to keep saying get over it, there is nothing I can do it is going to be quite hard. Heck- I may eventually give up.

You are absolutely right, Stanley. This is not something that YOU just "get over." BOTH spouses need to work together to make things better. And you are absolutely correct that the WS should be going out of their way to meet the needs of the BS.

In reality, however, it may take some time for this to happen. The WS still is working through fog (self-justification etc etc etc) and may need some time to get to the point where they are whole-heartedly throwing themselves back in to making their marriage work.


You bet I am angry and the OM is the best target to let steam go out. I certainly don’t say anything nasty to my wife anymore-- not at all. However, it is hard to resist pointing out the incredible deficiencies of the OM---- and trust me--- there are many-- the list is VERY LONG!


Yep...and you know what? Someday I bet Myrta will agree with you!

BTW, the fall out between JL and Myrta had to do with the fact that Myrta refused to put forth a more vigourous effort or as JL said-------- “the ball is on Myrta’s court--- she has the key”. This is why Myrta and JL had a disagreement. My wife believes that she will participate more fully in the recovery when she feels it is the right time to do so---- no sooner---- no later.

You know, I think that both of you are right here. In my heart I think Myrta should be jumping through hoops to prove to you how much she loves you. In my mind- and from my experience- however, I know it may take some time before she can fully engage herself in doing that. Right or wrong...that's where she is right now. And if she can't be pushed into doing the right the thing, then I guess the next question is how do we cope with YOUR feelings???? You can either decide that it isn't worth it...or you can hang in there as unfair as that is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />



So what did you do when your husband was depressed, angry, and felt like the most humiliated man in the world? Did you say to him your happiness does not depend on me?

Absolutely not. But remember- I had THREE years to *recover* before I told him.

Don’t you think that is quite cruel?

Yes.

Is this the low self-esteem coming thru?

No. I think it's fog.

What do you think?
I think you are a great husband STanley. And I truly believe that Myrta loves you. But, I also think this:

1) Mytra is strong-willed...and as another strong-willed woman- I know how hard it sometimes is to back down when we have taken a certain stance (NOT SAYING THIS IS RIGHT!!! Ok??)

2) Women- when they engage in A's- manage to convince themselves that they are *in love*- it helps the disconnect in their brains between the wrongess of their actions and their moral beliefs. Even when they realize that they WEREN'T in love- it takes some time before they are willing to realize how many faults etc that their OM actually has.... (same reason).

3) I truly believe that Myrta will come around. I'm hoping it's sooner rather then later...and I hope to talk to her at some point about all of this....but I don't know if she will be willing to do so.

Pshew...well I guess that's all I had on my mind. My best to both of you.

OK

Sadfww--- you did it again------- you made me feel pretty good about the whole thing. You have your head on your shoulders! BTW, I don't say this to just anyone.

I went to dinner with Myrta-- initially I was down, not sure why. But, after two glasses of wine I was head over heels over her. It is sooooo strange to be in lust like this after knowing her since I was 17. So who knows-- thanks again.

Oops, I just remember something about you sadfww:

You said D-day was three years after affair was over. Why did you wait that long to tell? What was going on during those three years? I know you were nine months pregnant. Why did you choose that moment?

BTW, I have five kids (12 thru 29), If t you think this is hard for you wait till there are teens.

You said you support your H who is four years older than you and yet you knew you wanted to come back top him despite the affairs. So your decision was not based on money or dependency on another (good for you!). What is the special quality you like in him? He must have something special.

I ask because I make much more money than OM and of course one wonders if money was a factor in my wife's decision. She is not materialistic, but her standard of living would have suffer with OM. What do you think?

Hi Stanley,

FH here. I hope you and Sadfww don't mind my butting in here to give you a second point of view.

My situation with my OM was similar to what you described:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I ask because I make much more money than OM and of course one wonders if money was a factor in my wife's decision. She is not materialistic, but her standard of living would have suffer with OM. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My OM did not make nearly as much money as my H. He believed, however, that we could "get by." I constantly tried to remind him that there would be SIX kids to support (my four, his two), etc., and that his belief that we would "live on love" wasn't realistic. He never heard me. Disneyland/Fog .... you name it. I'm usually a pretty romantic person, so I don't know why I didn't just fall into the idea, but I didn't.

And I've said this before about Myrta, but I'll say it again. I personally don't believe she is doing anything "wrong" in her recovery. I think if I were the BH in your scenario, I would much prefer that she do things at her own pace and when she is REALLY read to do it and mean it .... then to do it just because she's "supposed to". It would be a lie, wouldn't it?

Hi FH!

You remind me so much about Myrta. Her OM would also talk about marriage and my wife would not say a word--------- she was not interested and knew OM as a husband was not an option.

Must I conclude there are different levels of fog? The real foggy ones want to marry OM ASAP?

When I saw the picture of Myrta's OM I was in complete shock because I thought I was much more good looking (I am not a vain guy, BTW). But with the help of Myrta and many other FWWs I have come to realize that this has nothing to do with looks, ability to earn a good living, or ethics. This is all about an OM who is a smooth talker and knows how to fill those ENs. They must have an inherent ability to identify those ENs and go to work on them.

Perhaps WW leave the marriage when they find an OM who is truly a better man or as they say they were simply leaving the marriage and the OM happened to be there.

Shortly after D-day my wife had a lot of admiration for OM due to his magnificent smooth talk. This admiration is fading, perhaps because I relentlessly pointed out OM's faults. Now my wife agrees the flaws were there but she could not see them

So this brings me to another question:

As a BH----- I sometimes wonder if I would feel differently about an OM with Hollywood looks who is a millionaire?

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

STanley- I'll be back with some responses later.

In the meantime, I just wanted to ask you a question.

What can Myrta do that would help you with your recovery?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the meantime, I just wanted to ask you a question.

What can Myrta do that would help you with your recovery?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may sound stupid, but it is rather simple. The end result of the affair once the initial shock of pain, depression , and despair is passing is lack of trust. In addition one feels unsure of the spouse’s love. Why?----- because many of her actions after D-day are practically identical before D-day. So how do I know where I stand? Myrta and many other FWWs tell me-------------- “She loves you”. I guess she does, but at this point one needs a lot of reassurance.

I also have a huge chunk of our marital history that is in the dark. I am sure this chunk of history is full of events that are unpleasant to me, but I need to understand and assimilate these events. As a marriage we are a unit and both components must be at the same level. Myrta’s marital history is complete whereas mine is incomplete. If we want to do radical honesty to have a new beginning we don’t want to have secrets between us. IN the end those secrets lead to the development of walls and then--------------- you know where that goes.

So here is what I want:

1. Radical honesty--------- I told Myrta today I will not ask as many questions as I did in the past, but I would like her to spontaneously fill all the blanks I have. I would like to know how is her withdrawal? If the OM calls I would like to know ASAP. I don’t want a single lie. I want to know events that affected my life during the affair. I need to understand the “what, why, and where” of many things.

2. She needs to be a complete open book at all times so I can regain my trust. I believe this is happening, but as you can imagine I still have doubts. In fact sometimes I wonder is she still talks to OM.

3. She needs to show me affection---------------- I find that her affection gives me a ton of reassurance. I re-read many of my posts to you, FH, and JL. I find that I am in great need of knowing I am truly loved. This makes me sound like an insecure man, but in the aftermath of D-day that is how I feel. I want to be the main object of her affection.

4. If I happen to come up with a question I would like her to answer it with the knowledge that I have no desire to judge her or to be mad at her. It may simply be curiosity.

5. I want her to open up her heart in such a way that she allows me to know the innermost details of who she is as a woman. I am convinced that this leads to a greater degree of intimacy. In fact, that is how many people fall in love and how many affairs start. I want a lot of that intimacy.

6. I want her to read the MB material and to go through the book Surviving an Affair.
I want her to know she is completely safe with me. I am 100% sure I am staying married to her. She is the only woman I want-------- there is no need for me to think otherwise. I simply want to improve what we have and to avoid the chance of an A.

Of course I will do everything I can to support Myrta and to ameliorate whatever concerns she may have.


There may be more------

Can you tell me if I left something.

<small>[ October 16, 2004, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

This may sound stupid, but it is rather simple. The end result of the affair once the initial shock of pain, depression , and despair is passing is lack of trust. In addition one feels unsure of the spouse’s love. Why?----- because many of her actions after D-day are practically identical before D-day. So how do I know where I stand? Myrta and many other FWWs tell me-------------- “She loves you”. I guess she does, but at this point one needs a lot of reassurance.

I also have a huge chunk of our marital history that is in the dark. I am sure this chunk of history is full of events that are unpleasant to me, but I need to understand and assimilate these events. As a marriage we are a unit and both components must be at the same level. Myrta’s marital history is complete whereas mine is incomplete. If we want to do radical honesty to have a new beginning we don’t want to have secrets between us. IN the end those secrets lead to the development of walls and then--------------- you know where that goes.

So here is what I want:

1. Radical honesty--------- I told Myrta today I will not ask as many questions as I did in the past, but I would like her to spontaneously fill all the blanks I have. I would like to know how is her withdrawal? If the OM calls I would like to know ASAP. I don’t want a single lie. I want to know events that affected my life during the affair. I need to understand the “what, why, and where” of many things.

2. She needs to be a complete open book at all times so I can regain my trust. I believe this is happening, but as you can imagine I still have doubts. In fact sometimes I wonder is she still talks to OM.

3. She needs to show me affection---------------- I find that her affection gives me a ton of reassurance. I re-read many of my posts to you, FH, and JL. I find that I am in great need of knowing I am truly loved. This makes me sound like an insecure man, but in the aftermath of D-day that is how I feel. I want to be the main object of her affection.
4. If I happen to come up with a question I would like her to answer it with the knowledge that I have no desire to judge her or to be mad at her. It may simply be curiosity.

5. I want her to open up her heart in such a way that she allows me to know the innermost details of who she is as a woman. I am convinced that this leads to a greater degree of intimacy. In fact, that is how many people fall in love and how many affairs start. I want a lot of that intimacy.
6. I want her to read the MB material and to go through the book Surviving an Affair.
I want her to know she is completely safe with me. I am 100% sure I am staying married to her. She is the only woman I want-------- there is no need for me to think otherwise. I simply want to improve what we have and to avoid the chance of an A.

Of course I will do everything I can to support Myrta and to ameliorate whatever concerns she may have.


There may be more------

Can you tell me if I left something. ***************************

Stanley.....I have nothing to add. I can't speak for Myrta- and I am certainly not an experienced MB- so please take my words with a few large grains of salt...but I think that what you are asking for is completely reasonable. I bolded portions of what you said- and what I hope Myrta will consider if she reads this.

Myrta- if you are reading this thread...what do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> Oops, I just remember something about you sadfww:

You said D-day was three years after affair was over. Why did you wait that long to tell? What was going on during those three years? I know you were nine months pregnant. Why did you choose that moment?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow..this is a tough one.

Ok...here goes...Yikes- this is the most "Radical honestly" Ive had in quite some time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> H doesn't like to discuss this part of our lives- so we don't.

Stutter stutter...deep breath. I didn't tell him immediately for a number of reason- most of which have to do with complete selfishness. I didn't want him to leave me- and I was completely terrified that he would if he knew. As you know, the advice out "there" is quite inconsistent- there are a number of marriage counselors who say that a wayward spouse should never tell the betrayed spouse. FOR MY OWN PURPOSES I chose to believe them- b/c it was easier for me. So....three years passed, and I grew more and more depressed, full of anxiety - and was plagued with tormenting thoughts...

I could hardly meet my husband's eyes knowing what I knew - and what I had WILFULLY kept from him.

Finally in 1999- I broke down. Whether or not it was best for him to know, I knew that I could know longer go on without telling him. Perhaps this was again selfishness- doing what was best for me- and not necessarily him. But in any case- that is what happened.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

You said you support your H who is four years older than you and yet you knew you wanted to come back top him despite the affairs. So your decision was not based on money or dependency on another (good for you!). What is the special quality you like in him? He must have something special.

I ask because I make much more money than OM and of course one wonders if money was a factor in my wife's decision. She is not materialistic, but her standard of living would have suffer with OM. What do you think? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I adore my H. Let me tell you a few things about our current situation.

He stays home with our children because we made a joint decision for him to do so. And I completely and totally respect him for doing so. Yes, it is true that I have no concern about having to make my own way in the world. That is not why I am with him, however. I never expected him to financially support me. What I did expect him to do was to emotionally - and lovingly- support my soul- my "self". And he does do that- or at least try to. During my A's we were in a bad place- and one I know we will never be in again. To this day, I know that I can count on him- and I know that I can trust his integrity, his love, and his basic goodness.
Quite simply, he is a man that I find not only physically attractive, but emotionally essential for my well being.

We do have things to work on. I wish he would be more openly "admiring" and "flirtatious" with me. Having read this site and considered what I find lacking, I am embarrassed to admit that I need those things to feel desireable. But I do- and we will work on it, as I work on stifling my demanding and overbearing side.

TMI? Sorry, stanley. Thanks for reading.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
<strong> As you know, the advice out "there" is quite inconsistent- there are a number of marriage counselors who say that a wayward spouse should never tell the betrayed spouse. FOR MY OWN PURPOSES I chose to believe them- b/c it was easier for me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you, there are many MC who advocate never telling the BS. I think here at MB we all understand that is bad advice. I am sure there are MC who truly believe that it is best not to tell, but I think something you said applies here. You chose to listen to the MC and not tell because it was "easier". I wonder how many MC advise people not to tell simply because it may be easier, and out of competition, they don't want you to find a new MC because they told you to do something hard.
Michael

Sadfww said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I didn't want him to leave me- and I was completely terrified that he would if he knew. As you know, the advice out "there" is quite inconsistent- there are a number of marriage counselors who say that a wayward spouse should never tell the betrayed spouse. FOR MY OWN PURPOSES I chose to believe them- b/c it was easier for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my wife and I used to believe in that logic of "don't say a word------- spouses cannot hurt if they do not know". Heard that many times on talk shows by the likes of Dr. Laura and many others. The idea was that telling was a selfish act to release remorse, however in the process the betrayed spouse was devastated. So the idea was to keep quiet and work on the marriage. In fact this was Myrta's plan. She wanted to milk the affair to the very end and then return to the marriage full time. In the mean time I would feel no pain by not knowing anything at all.

The pregnancy must have affected you in such a way that you wanted to come clean. That took a lot of courage---- did you know that a lot of men have affairs when the wife is pregnant? I suspect the pregnancy brought a feeling of seeking a new beginning. I am now fully convinced that any secret between couples creates a wall and that wall gets in the way of emotional intimacy. The key for you and your H is emotional intimacy, however both of you must be receptive to that.

I think my wife was more emotionally intimate with OM than with me? Emotional intimacy leads to an erotic state with little difficulty. That explains why folks in affairs always feel like soul-mates and romance flows so easily. As long as there are secrets between the two of you there cannot be intimacy. As I said this intimacy is sometimes easier in the affair because the person is brand new and the circumstances that surround the affair are full of fantasy. This creates a situation where people open up to each other.

Myrta and I never had that special situation to be open with each other. We courted as teenagers and she kept many secrets with her. In reality we never had courtship as adults, so one can say we miss the boat. OTOH, she and OM courted as fully matured adults and hence the firm connection was easily made after emotional intimacy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So....three years passed, and I grew more and more depressed, full of anxiety - and was plagued with tormenting thoughts...
I could hardly meet my husband's eyes knowing what I knew - and what I had WILFULLY kept from him.
Finally in 1999- I broke down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SO it has been eight years since the affair. That is a long time SadFWW. How is your H five years post D-day? Of course for him the affair was five years ago, because that is when he knew. Is he bitter? Is he distant or disinterested? My advice is to talk and basically do what I mention in my other post regarding what I wanted from Myrta. Try to open his heart and show him yours--- find the emotional intimacy- the key to a strong marriage and happiness. This emotional intimacy is powerful and that is why the attraction of the affair is so powerful.

I ask you:

What would you like your H to do?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite simply, he is a man that I find not only physically attractive, but emotionally essential for my well being.
We do have things to work on. I wish he would be more openly "admiring" and "flirtatious" with me. Having read this site and considered what I find lacking, I am embarrassed to admit that I need those things to feel desirable. But I do- and we will work on it, as I work on stifling my demanding and overbearing side.
TMI? Sorry, stanley. Thanks for reading.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, Sadwff do as above, but there is something else you can work on:

1. Is there any special favor in bed that you know drives H wild or crazy? Is there is one I suggest you cultivate that whether you feel like it or not. Remember love is a conscious act (THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID!). If there are some specific sexual favors he enjoys I say don't hold back whether you feel like it or not. Sometimes romance requires conscious work but after a while becomes natural and can be done without a conscious thought.

2. As far as I can tell part of the ENs includes a very nice presentation by the spouse. That means wearing a nice perfume and dressing up nicely even if you are home. Learn to be sexy. Don't fall into the trap that "H must likely me as I am". A woman that wears a smelly T-shirt, baggy pants, and dirty sneekers everyday is not what we consider the standard of beauty. Do I sound shallow? You bet! This is very shallow, but presentation is very important and it is recognized as such by MB. I suspect you are likely to be a well dressed woman since you are out there working as a lawyer? That business suit can be quite sexy.

3. Make sure you have those dates and the 15 hours alone. This is something that I don't get from Myrta due to her busy schedule and I really miss it. It must be even harder with little ones around, but you must do it.

4. Make sure your H feels he is a very unique guy. This may be
important because he stays home with the kids. You say you do not get enough flirting. But to get some of that you must also dish it out.

5. Do little things for your H that are unexpected.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

One more thing:

This is what another BH name Uphil posted in another thread in GQII.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop focussing on what our BH OUGHT to be thinking and feeling, and focus on what he is thinking and feeling. That is validation - being able to see and accept where he is, emotionally, and what is going through his mind.
Most affairs are for unmet needs. You had holes in your lives that OM was able to fill. Did you ever think that your H has unmet needs, and may have had these for as long as you? But, he didn't have an A to get them filled; he just accepted that you don't get everything you want in life. Perhaps you only get what you deserve, and he's thinking that he didn't deserve to have yor fulfilling his ENs. But,life goes on and you suck it up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sums it all up.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
So, what are the barriers to recovery in your H's mind? Fear. Fear that it is he who is being given the second chance. Fear that he will be found still not good enough. Fear that his needs will never get filled. Fear that the OM will forever be in your heart. Whenever you have an argument or disagreement, you will retreat in your mind to your fantasy A, and "Mr. Perfect".
Fear that you did truly love OM, and will come to resent your H even more. Fear that when you make love, you have to think of OM in order to get through it. That you'll compare your H to OM, and he'll be found wanting.
Fear mostly that you are settling for your H, but then he is settling, too.
Just validate your H. He is a human being, a person of worth, just like you. He has wants and needs. He has fears. He makes mistakes. But mostly, he doesn't want to be treated like a pair of shoes or handbag - acquired or disposed of as you desire.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the dilemma! For some reason FWWs don't see this point!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
I wish he would be more openly "admiring" and "flirtatious" with me. Having read this site and considered what I find lacking, I am embarrassed to admit that I need those things to feel desireable. But I do- and we will work on it, as I work on stifling my demanding and overbearing side.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SadFWW

~LOL~

Don't be embarrased by this need.

You are a girl at your core.... that flirty stuff appeals to our inner Barbie... and I am waaaaay older than you.

Just let that flirty girly girl have her way with your H once in awhile... and he'll "get it".

Love ya,

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sadfww:
I wish he would be more openly "admiring" and "flirtatious" with me. Having read this site and considered what I find lacking, I am embarrassed to admit that I need those things to feel desireable. But I do- and we will work on it, as I work on stifling my demanding and overbearing side.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SadFWW

~LOL~

Don't be embarrased by this need.

You are a girl at your core.... that flirty stuff appeals to our inner Barbie... and I am waaaaay older than you.

Just let that flirty girly girl have her way with your H once in awhile... and he'll "get it".

Love ya,

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He did..this afternoon...

OMG! I can't believe I'm typing this..blush blush blush...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This site has been SOOO good for our marriage.

Thanks Pep.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by Sadfww:
[qb] I wonder how many MC advise people not to tell simply because it may be easier, and out of competition, they don't want you to find a new MC because they told you to do something hard.
Michael </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...now that is a good point. I do wonder what kind of statistics the "don't tell" camp has for successful marriages after an A. I'm betting the statistics are pretty bad. I can't imagine how a couple could successfully have a marriage with that kind of secret floating around out there...

Ick.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Stanley- food for thought in both of your posts. I'll reply later.

<small>[ October 17, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Sadfww ]</small>

just take one day at a time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> I am now fully convinced that any secret between couples creates a wall and that wall gets in the way of emotional intimacy. The key for you and your H is emotional intimacy, however both of you must be receptive to that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley- I completely agree with this. I've been working hard since August trying to change myself and my behavior so that H feels "safe" with me. They dynamics of our relationship have always involved a lot of arguing etc. JL (of course!) helped me to understand that the atmosphere I was creating was not one in which my H could feel safe- and therefore close- to me. In turn, I realized that a lot of the issues we had were caused because of MY defensiveness- assuming that H always meant the worst by any comment he might make. And this defensiveness of course came from the his love had diminished for me. SO...my big "project" has been to regain his trust and confidence- not in the way we usually talk about here because I truly believe that H "trusts" me not to have a repeat A- but to trust me with his inner thoughts and emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

I think my wife was more emotionally intimate with OM than with me? Emotional intimacy leads to an erotic state with little difficulty. That explains why folks in affairs always feel like soul-mates and romance flows so easily. As long as there are secrets between the two of you there cannot be intimacy. As I said this intimacy is sometimes easier in the affair because the person is brand new and the circumstances that surround the affair are full of fantasy. This creates a situation where people open up to each other.

Myrta and I never had that special situation to be open with each other. We courted as teenagers and she kept many secrets with her. In reality we never had courtship as adults, so one can say we miss the boat. OTOH, she and OM courted as fully matured adults and hence the firm connection was easily made after emotional intimacy. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that emotional intimacy can fuel an A. I am curious Stanley as to why you think that the fact that you met very young kept you from becoming emotionally intimate? Could you explain that to me?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>
So it has been eight years since the affair. That is a long time SadFWW. How is your H five years post D-day? Of course for him the affair was five years ago, because that is when he knew. Is he bitter? Is he distant or disinterested? My advice is to talk and basically do what I mention in my other post regarding what I wanted from Myrta. Try to open his heart and show him yours--- find the emotional intimacy- the key to a strong marriage and happiness. This emotional intimacy is powerful and that is why the attraction of the affair is so powerful.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Until about a month ago, H seemed angry all of the time- and yes, I would say he was emotionally distant.

The past 5 years have been BAD for a recovery effort. In part, I think we are only truly entering the recovery stages now. During these five years, we made a major move across country, had 2 more children (we had one child pre-dday), lost my H's father to cancer, had our middle child diagnosed at the age of 3 with juvenile diabetes (1 week afer my H's father died) and on top of all of that- I had SERIOUS mental health issues with generalized anxiety disorder and depression keeping me from being able to function fully. I was able to go to work and do ok- but I just about absolutely paralyzed myself with rampant anxiety- to the point where I was considering running my car into an overpass because the reality of life was too painful. Luckily, I got on some great meds- and found a good therapist and haven't had a severe anxiety attack in a couple of years. SO....let's just say that our relationship never got back to being a good relationship in this time period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong>

OK, Sadwff do as above, but there is something else you can work on:

1. Is there any special favor in bed that you know drives H wild or crazy? Is there is one I suggest you cultivate that whether you feel like it or not. Remember love is a conscious act (THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID!). If there are some specific sexual favors he enjoys I say don't hold back whether you feel like it or not. Sometimes romance requires conscious work but after a while becomes natural and can be done without a conscious thought.

2. As far as I can tell part of the ENs includes a very nice presentation by the spouse. That means wearing a nice perfume and dressing up nicely even if you are home. Learn to be sexy. Don't fall into the trap that "H must likely me as I am". A woman that wears a smelly T-shirt, baggy pants, and dirty sneekers everyday is not what we consider the standard of beauty. Do I sound shallow? You bet! This is very shallow, but presentation is very important and it is recognized as such by MB. I suspect you are likely to be a well dressed woman since you are out there working as a lawyer? That business suit can be quite sexy.

3. Make sure you have those dates and the 15 hours alone. This is something that I don't get from Myrta due to her busy schedule and I really miss it. It must be even harder with little ones around, but you must do it.

4. Make sure your H feels he is a very unique guy. This may be
important because he stays home with the kids. You say you do not get enough flirting. But to get some of that you must also dish it out.

5. Do little things for your H that are unexpected. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Stanley- this is good advice- and I have been trying to follow it. I've taken the initiative for sex (H used to complain that I didn't) and have been ummm...more willing to adventure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I've also worked on my appearance a lot- finally losing the weight I had gained throughout my pregnancies, changing my hair style, buying new clothes etc- and have consulted with H asking him what he likes - and doesn't. I've never been able to be completely sloppy during the week- my job requires that I dress professionally- but I have been lax about my appearance at home and I have changed that. I suppose we will see how all of this goes. I know that some of this has already paid off- we had a brief discussion about the state of our relationship, and H firmly stated that things were much better- but I want even more then that. So...I will keep working away. Please let me know if I am missing something or if there is something I can do to?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please let me know if I am missing something or if there is something I can do to?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadfww:

Myrta always did little things for me that had a tremendous impact on me. She even did them while she was having the affair. For example at one time I was arriving at the airport from a trip and called her as soon as the plane landed. She advised me she was still on the road and would probably be late. In any event I walked out of the plane thru the tunnel into the gate and there she was waiting for me. I was surprised because I was expecting her not to be there. I still remember the look in her face and how happy I was to see her there. I was surprised because I thought I would have to wait for her outside of the terminal. This is a little thing, but it had a huge impact on me. And she was nice to do this while she was in the midst of the affair. So if you can think of stuff like that go ahead and do it.

Regarding sex----- you may want to observe your husband and see when he seems to be in the mood. In my case it is mostly all weekend because I don’t have to get up early next day and there is the atmosphere of going out, drinking a couple of glasses of wine, ect. So be alert to when he seems to enjoy that sexual intimacy and go for it. You don’t want to attempt this when he is dead tired or unreceptive.

I am glad you are not defensive anymore. I believe Myrta is still quite defensive whenever I talk to her regarding any issue that is remotely related to the affair. The other thing I have noted is that constant reminders of the affair with TV shows and movies. When we go out to dinner with friends there is always the gossip about the latest affair among folks we know. I suspect all this talk causes some stress in Myrta. My oldest son was on the phone just the other day condemning infidelity and saying he would never do such a thing. So as you can see there are triggers everywhere for us to feel uneasy.

I am glad your anxiety is better. I have a daughter with panic attacks and she is doing quite well with Paxil. Even Myrta had some panic attacks when she was a teenager, but they went away shortly after she met me. Anxiety can be paralyzing and it is almost always associated with depression.

How did you stop being defensive? Can you post to Myrta about this?

<small>[ October 18, 2004, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

One detail I forgot to mention: our OM apparently doesn't wear a wedding ring.

That should have been enough of a red flag for my wife to know to stay away from him.