hey there - SNS, how did dinner go? I have been anxious to find out how things are. What happened with V-Day and gifts and stuff like that? I hope it was okay and maybe a start to a better week. Things here are as always, up and down. V-Day was harder than I expeected. He did give me a card and gift, I of course did not. I think he was a little disappointed, but I just didn't want to. Right now I am sick and my middle one has been home for three days with strep throat. (A favorite around my house). As you say, this takes a terrible physical toll on your body. What really makes me angry is how good he is trying to be, coming home early, asking to come home during the day to help. Unfortunately, all it does is remind of how indifferent he was before A. I know it should make me feel good, but it doesn't.

Well GoodNews certainly had a lot of info for us. I find it interesting that the men seem to be able to move on more quickly than the women. Why do you think that is? My H has maintained that if the roles were reversed he would be able to move on, forgive, let go of the anger. I don't believe him, but the more I read here from the men, I wonder if it is true. I personally can't imagine driving OW to the airport. It just doesn't make sense to me. Again, I don't know if that is the man-woman thing or just a personality difference. Anyway, always nice to hear new perspectives.

MP

Hi MP!!

Boy, you and I are really in agreement on what you wrote below!!! I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I read his post. If I would have been a participant in a survey on infidelity before D-Day, I would have thought infidelity was a definate deal breaker for the men and something that women learned to accept and overcome. Having read several posts from several men on this board, I am always amazed at how they are able to deal with it all so much better than most of us women. I wonder what their secret is??? My H says the same thing to me, that if it had been me he would love me no matter what and want to keep the family together and move on. Easy for him to say since it wasn't me, but him that cheated! My H even tells me if I need to cheat in order for us to put this all in the past and go forward than he is okay with that? What the hell??? Ofcourse he wants to put all of these conditions on it, like I can't care about the OP and it has to be just like his was...blah, blah, blah!
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"Well GoodNews certainly had a lot of info for us. I find it interesting that the men seem to be able to move on more quickly than the women. Why do you think that is? My H has maintained that if the roles were reversed he would be able to move on, forgive, let go of the anger. I don't believe him, but the more I read here from the men, I wonder if it is true. I personally can't imagine driving OW to the airport. It just doesn't make sense to me. Again, I don't know if that is the man-woman thing or just a personality difference. Anyway, always nice to hear new perspectives."
---

Well, Valetine's Day was a bit of a let down. We couldn't go out to eat b/c I was just too sick with the strep throat. Luckily I am feeling better now. Hope you and your little one get well soon. So anyway, I got two cards from WH and cards from the children on Sunday. I told WH I would give him his cards on Monday. I was waiting to see if he had anything for me. So, on Monday I gave him his two cards and his DVD. He felt bad. He didn't have anything, nada, zip for me. He said, "I thought you said you didn't want anything!?" I said, "No, I said don't buy me any jewelry or waste money on flowers." So, he runs out and buys me a gift. I wasn't too happy about that at all. He was like, well we usually only give cards so I didn't think you wanted anything. I told him that all changed when he scr*wed OW and I would have thought he would have made some little extra effort considering what he'd put me through. What a joke. I'm sure if he were still seeing OW, he would have found the time and the thought to give her something!!!

So, that was the extent of it. Just more pleasant memories for me in this whole saga! He just doesn't think. Now, I know that I was 50% at fault for the break down of our marriage pre-A, but I am 0% at fault in his decision to lie and cheat. I have really been working on the things about me that drove him away - namely love busters said in the heat of an argument. Old habits are hard to break, especially when he does something that reminds me of his inability to stop and think b/4 he acts or speaks.

I can't help but wonder if he has really learned anything from this whole A business at all. He sounds like Bill Clinton at times when I ask him a question. Like I'll say, "Did the two of you go anywhere together during the A?" He'll say, "What do you mean by 'go anywhere'?" I'm like, do you speak and understand the English language??? I know the OW told WH she wished they could go out on a date somewhere... I have to say, "Did you and the OW at any point in time for any length of time ever get into the same vehicle at the same time and move from point A to point B?" "Did you and the OW both decide to go somewhere together but in different cars?" I feel like I am conducting a hostile cross-examination!

Well, I'm glad your H got you cards AND a gift. I'm glad the whole V-Day ordeal is done and over with. Such a horrible time for anyone dealing with the ramifications of an A. And is it just me or is everything on T.V. these days about infidelity??? Not to mention all of the cheating songs on the radio. It must be an epidemic!

H has to register next week for his next class. You know what that means...the waiting game to see if OW changes her schedule yet again to try and be in his class with him. What a spiteful person she must be to continue doing that 7 months past D-Day! I sure would like to see her get ran over by the Karma bus!!!

Thanks for writing. Take care and talk to you again soon! -SNS

MP, you wrote;

Well GoodNews certainly had a lot of info for us. I find it interesting that the men seem to be able to move on more quickly than the women. Why do you think that is? My H has maintained that if the roles were reversed he would be able to move on, forgive, let go of the anger. I don't believe him, but the more I read here from the men, I wonder if it is true. I personally can't imagine driving OW to the airport. It just doesn't make sense to me. Again, I don't know if that is the man-woman thing or just a personality difference.

Generally speaking, I think men with families that become betrayed spouses view this from a somewhat different perspective. I think we might be a tad more logical in our approach. That doesn't mean we do not suffer as much emotionally because we most certainly do. I have no words to describe my pain, anger, and sense of loss stemming from my wife's premeditated betrayal of me and our family, but at the end of the day my wife is still the mother of our three children. Do I want to tear our family apart by refusing to accept her willingness to work at restoring our marriage? Is my offended pride so great that I will persist in refusing her generous offer of love and redemption? Am I that perfect?

I believe I have every right to a divorce, but is that what I really want for my family? Will that improve my lot in life or do I now have the best opportunity to go forward with the one person who has failed me only one time in the last 21 years of our history? That's thinking with my head. When I think with my heart and soul I know that I love her--in fact, I know that I now love her even more--not because she hurt me, but because she is demonstrating patience and kindness to me and is doing everything in her power to make it all up to me. In other words, she has empathy for my emotional pain, as I now have for hers. Do you have empathy for your husband's sense of guilt?

Let me ask you this question; What would it take for you to forgive your husband? What would it take for you to drive your stake in the ground and say, 'we will now move forward together and put this all behind us.' What would he have to do for you to let him back into your heart?

As for our driving my wife's lover to the airport, I know that sounds crazy and I could not have done that immediately. It took me about three days to get a grip on my emotions such that I could go forward with my plan. You see, I wanted him to see me for the reasonable person that I am because my wife had given him a negative impression of me in her e-mails. Their relationship was forward looking and in order for my wife to justify her behavior to him, she had to make me out to be the bad guy. I think he must now question my wife's honesty as well as her view of reality. At the very least, he now has some doubt that she was telling him the whole truth. I also wanted to meet him and look him straight in the face. I wanted him to see my face--the face of a husband as well as the face of a father so that he would know that this wasn't only about him and my wife. Rather, it was also about me as well as our three children because they were hurting, too. Also, I wanted him to know that I would always recognize him in a crowd and that he would never be able to hide from me. Having him meet my wife's mother was also an added twist that I felt was very important. I wanted him to ask himself this question; 'what the hell am I doing here in this country talking to my lover's husband as well as her mother?' I hope he concluded that he had no business being here because that is what I would have thought had I been as foolish as he. I wanted this Welshman's fantasy bubble to burst. When he got on that plane and left I breathed a sigh of relief because I thought it was all over. Unfortunately, this affair had become an addiction for my wife and she went through some very real withdrawal pains for about six weeks. Our MC had suggested anti-depressants toward the end of our sessions, but we vetoed that.

SNS, having an affair on your husband--even with his blessing--in order to even the score is a sure ticket for disaster. Hopefully, you are far more intuitive and intelligent than to believe that such a destructive activity would succeed in solving anything.

hi all -First let me start by saying to GoodNews that I don't for a second assume that your pain/anger is any less than what we feel, I don't. If it sounded that way, it is not at all what I meant. I only intended to say that the few men we have heard from are all more willing to take that step forward, to move on, to keep the family together and most of all, to do it more quickly.

Your airport story is not only interesting, but it does make a lot of sense. I still don't know that I would have had my wits about me to think like that, but it certainly worked for you. I'm not sure I can answer your question re: what would it take for me to forgive? I have given that question a lot of thought, and I just don't have an answer. I also don't know if I have empathy for him. When he is at his lowest, somewhere deep down I feel sorry for him, but as soon as he pulls it together, it disappears. I also have not expressed any empathy or sympathy towards him, even when I feel it, mostly because I don't want to feel at all vulnerable. How sad! I will say this, We have gone for 2 weeks now without a major outburst. That is definitely a first. While I am still very sad and angry, I have somehow managed to keep it in check a little bit. As for SNS - I know she is way too rational to do something like a revenge A - as much as we would both like to, I doubt either of us ever will. I am really trying to take stock in what you say, because it makes a LOT of sense. Thanks for your perspective.

SNS - I am so sorry about V-Day, I wish it had worked out better. You know that I feel our H's have similar situations and one thing mine has learned is that he should not always listen to what I say. Maybe you should give yours the same advice. For example, I said many times I did not want a gift for V-Day, he didn't listen and got one anyway. It's a good thing, because if he didn't I would have been furious. So he has learned to do what he knows is the right thing and sometimes it actually works. Think about suggesting this to your H. I love your Bill Clinton analogy. But I really think it gets down to your H needing to talk more. You will never trust him again if you don't feel he is telling you everything you need to know. You have got to make him understand that. I believe that will a large affect on your whole recovery process.

It is very true about the TV shows and songs. It's everywhere. I make my H watch Desperate Housewives with me so he can squirm for the whole hour. I actually had a friend tell me how she watched the Today show this week and it was all about A's, how to detect them, how to read cell phone bill . . . Can you imagine how difficult it was to sit through that??? Anyway, we have a 40th birthday party to attend tonight, so I am going to try and put on a happy face and attempt to have a decent evening. My oldest is sick, so if I am miserable, at least I have an excuse to leave early! Hope everyone has a good weekend. MP

Hello MP,

Hope you had a nice time at the birthday party. I'm glad things have been smooth sailing for you lately. Things are okay here, not the best they've been since D-Day but certainly not the worst. I wish I could move beyond it all, I really do. I just pray that with time it won't consume so much of my day. I'm sure my H says the same prayer. It is so hard. It really is. I wish I were different. I wish I were made different. All I can do is try. One day at a time. -SNS

hey there - you better hurry and get yourself in a better place because things are heading downward here. Things were quiet, not good here. Now, I have 3 sick children - all with strep throat and a high fever virus on top of that. It is really crazy here. It always gets worse when he is around for the weekend, and now we had a long weekend, plus he stayed home to help with the kids today. When would that have ever happened before??? We have not "talked" in days and I had a little blow-up this morning. It just hurts so much knowing what I know. I keep checking his blackberry again. It feels like the cycle is starting all over again. As you said, take it day by day and hope that on one of those days, it just gets better. Talk to you soon. MP

SnS and MP, the only way you can ever move beyond your current situation is to forgive. You'll never be able to forget, but forgetting is not a requirement. Forgiveness, however, is a requirement, but only if you want to truly heal your marriage. If you're not interested in healing your marriage then do whatever you must do to reach a reasonable closure of your marriage relationship with your spouse. Once that is accomplished, then go forward with your life. Stagnating in your situation will only leave you feeling cheated...only this time it is you that is cheating yourself. The bottom line is that a Betrayed Spouse ( I have a problem using the appropriate acronym for that one:-/ ) must make a healthy commitment to move forward either way; You must either stay in and work with your spouse to rebuild the marriage or you must seek a reasonable closure of your marriage relationship. Both involve a commitment to move forward. By remaining in your current state of stagnation you are cheating yourself out of every reward life has to offer. Of course, you are also shielding yourself from the future risk of the unknown. Having said all this, if your marriage relationship remains in its current configuration, it will eventually starve to death. Starvation means everybody loses. The choice--as well as the risk--is your to make and take. Choose wisely.

Best to all,

GN

Hi MP,

Just reaching out to lend my support. I am sorry all three of your children are sick. I had strep throat a week or two ago and it was misery so I know how they're feeling. I hope you don't come down with it as well. My H was off yesterday too, so I know what you mean. We had a marathon talking session last night until the wee hours of the morning and so we're both exhausted today. I know we're making progress (slow progress, but it is still progress). I think we will make it, but we both have alot of work and as GN said, forgiving to do on both sides. I think you and your H will make it too. I just think our recovery will take longer than it does for some. You know, I was talking about this on another post... for me, it has been 7+ months since D-Day. Most peoples engagements last longer than that, so for me, if some people can take 1-2 years before deciding if they want to say "I Do", then I think I can take that long to decide whether or not I want to say, "I don't" considering my two small children and the 10 years I have invested in this marriage. Many posters here on MB say recovery can take as long as two years, so I don't feel "stuck" or "stagnant" in our R, I just feel like it is a personal journey of healing and the trip can be short for some and longer for others. It is the final destination that counts. I'm thinking of you every day MP!
-SNS

GN,

Some of the above addressed some of your post. The only other thing I would say is that, for me, posting here helps me vent the worst of my feelings so that I don't take it out on my H. Our daily lives are okay most of the time (sometimes even great), and as I said, we are making slow progress. I guess what I am trying to point out to you is that just b/c what you read here sounds gloomy at times, it is by putting here (like a journal) that I am able to keep from putting it all on my H. Does that make sense?

-SNS

SnS, you wrote;

I guess what I am trying to point out to you is that just b/c what you read here sounds gloomy at times, it is by putting here (like a journal) that I am able to keep from putting it all on my H. Does that make sense?

Yes, of course that makes sense. These boards do have therapeutic value and I do understand your frustration perfectly. For example, I'm a communicator while my wife is not. I desperately needed to talk about what happened immediately after D-Day and she simply couldn't articulate any words because she was hurting so much from all of the guilt. Her withdrawal from the OM was excruciating and I had to endure that process while reading her love letter e-mails to him--courtesy of the keylogger. I had to tolerate knowing that while she lived with me and slept in our bed that she actually believed she was deeply in love with him--her soulmate! After over 20 years of marriage that was the most difficult thing I have ever had to do and I did not handle it well. I nearly booted her out of the house on two separate occasions, but I am so thankful I didn't because in her state of confusion and deception she may have harmed herself or someone else. Before D-Day I could see she wasn't thinking clearly; she was writing payroll checks with conflicting amounts and some checks were even left without a signature. Looking back it's a wonder she didn't have a head-on collision while driving to town or collided with a pedestrian or even a cyclist. She was living in a fog--not much different from being stoned, IMO.

MP,

Just checking in to make sure you're doing okay. Hope your three little ones are recovering from strep throat and you're feeling better as well. -SNS

hi guys - sorry I have been out of touch. I of course got strep throat and was very sick. I am finally feeling a little better, well enough to make it down to the computer. It has been a long 2 weeks here.

Interesting stuff posted. I understand what GN writes about being stagnant, I feel that way sometimes. On the other hand, SNS makes a good point that is just taking a long time in the recovery process. One thing I don't know is whether I will ever be able to forgive. I saw GN wrote that in order to move forward there must be forgiveness, but I don't really foresee that. This week is very hard in particular. It is when it all started one year ago. It is when he initially left for FL. and within a short time he was having A. I have become very fixated on times and dates and I envision real struggles in the coming months. I see how much it is affecting me already.

SNS - In one of my delirious fevered moments, I concocted a wonderful plan for you and I. We stay with our H's until the day our last child leaves for college. On that very day, we file for divorce. I get to move to a warm sunny climate, (something I always wanted to do) and he has to start all over at the ripe old age of 55. I will have kept my family together during the important years and now he will have to start anew without any warning that this was coming. It seemed like a great idea at the time. Anyway, off to take more Motrin before I start thinking crazy again. By the way, thanks for all the good thoughts. You're always in mine as well.

A good weekend to all. MP

Hello MP,

Sorry you got sick too. I was afraid of that. I too hash out all kinds of plans for my future. I think it is a good coping mechanism for us. It is a way of taking control for me. Since I had absolutley no control of my H's behavior during his A even though it had a devastating effect on my life, fantasizing about my future alternatives gives me soom sense os peace. Knowing I can move on if I choose too helps me not too feel so trapped.

My H keeps coming in here. He is afraid I have a computer "friend" (probably male). He can't seem to get it that I'm having trouble moving forward b/c I feel like too many pieces of the puzzle are missing.

March 8th will be one year since H met OW. Their first class together was from March 8th to May 3rd or 4th. He says it was the last two weeks of that class that he started feeling "uncomfortable" by how aggressive and flirtatious she was being. Ofcourse that didn't stop him from keeping in contact with her over the break and when the second class statred on June 3rd, they kissed on June 7th and had sex on June 10th. They didn't let any grass grow under their feet, did they??? Then the fateful D-Day was 12:20 a.m. on July 6th. So, like you I have some tough months ahead.

Glad we have each other. Hope we make it past the first D-Day Anniversary.

-SNS

hi there SNS - we are getting snowed in here right now! It is so interesting that your H remembers dates and things. I get "I don't remember" for so many things, and I actually believe him. Mostly because he never really remembered dates and things with me either. I wish I had some concrete dates. I'm not sure why, I just wish I do.
Today was really hard. My 4 year old had school pictures and insisted on wearing this Dodgers tee shirt my H bought him during his stay in Fl. I should have thrown it out sooner, I just forgot. So now, I will forever have to look at his school picture wearing this stupid shirt he bought during the A, with the possibility she was even with him when he bought it! YUCK! I don't know why these things bother me when clearly there are bigger issues to deal with, but I still can't get past it. I plan on asking him later if the drunken wh*** was with him when he bought it. I'm sure he'll tell me he doesn't remember!
Has your H seen OW at school at all? And how are things? Seems like they might be a little better? We were out with the kids yesterday for a whole big family day thing and all I kept thinking is what a farce, scam . . . It feels like pretend to me. I know I don't belong there with him, yet we go out like one big happy family. I don't know if I should give myself a lot of credit for being able to do that, or feel weak that I can't break away and start over. It's very confusing. Do you feel like that ever? Anyway, as you know I am a big reality TV fan (and unfortunately my kids are too now) so we have a big night ahead of us - Fear Factor Reality Edition, American Idol and the Bachelorette. I must go and get the TIVO prepared. Hope you are okay and I will talk to you very soon. MP

Hello MP,

As hard as it is for either one of us to believe right now, I predict with 100% certainty that years from now when you look at that picture of your four year old, all you will see is your baby and that picture will conjure up so many treasured memories of how precious he was when he was four and how fast the time flew by. Nothing or no one will be able to compete with those memories from your heart. That is all you will see years from now when you look at that picture.

As for me, things are better and I think that is b/c we are talking more about the A and H is trying as best as he can to remember the details I'm asking for. In exchange, I have really, really been trying to listen without interrupting and keep my anger and disgust in check so that I can pull these details out of him. He hasn't seen the OW since D-Day. He is a conflict-avoider so he will drive so far out of his way to try his best not to even come within a 20 mile radius of her house! He doesn't want to see her b/c he doesn't want a scene. He would be happy never to see her again b/c he knows if he runs into her I am going to expect him to tell her to go to hell, she meant nothing and he loves his wife and always has, etc... Like our MC said, he was tuaght very early in life to take the easy way out. Thus, have an A instead of deal with the problems in your marriage and avoid OW at all costs rather than have any unpleasant fall out from running into her.

I understand what you said about feeling like you are "pretending" during family times. I think that is why holidays are hard for me. However, you said you felt like YOU didn't belong there. If anyone doesn't belong there, it is perhaps our FWHs. However, think about who really doesn't belong there enjoying a "family day" with YOUR family - the OW!!!! That is what keeps me strong b/c I know I do not want my children to have some skank step-mom influencing their lives in any way, shape or form, nor do I want them to have some deliquent step-siblings teaching and exposing them to who knows what!!! So maybe right now, there will be times when we feel like we're "faking it" and other times when we feel like "he doesn't belong here" but I will strive to make sure that at no time will I feel like "we don't all belong together" because we do and always will be a family. That wouldn't change if we got divorced b/c we'd always need to be a family for the sake of the children so why not give it our all and give them the family they deserve. Give yourself credit for staying and not taking the easy way out (like my H did with his A)! Nothing worthwhile is ever easy!

-SNS

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Still-n-Shock ]</small>

hi there SNS - I am so glad to hear things are on an upward swing for you. That is always great news. I am also glad your H is talking more. I think it helps and I know it is something you want and need. You are sounding so much stronger lately.

My H is always trying to talk and I want no part of him right now. I can't stand that he can't remember details. On D-Day I found 2 explicit text messages they sent one another and to this day he claims he doesn't remember sending it. hello, are you a moron? For someone who never sends a text message, how do you forget sending this one??? I also keep reminding him how this week is their 1 year anniversary and whether or not he has sent her a card. I am getting crueler as the days pass.

I carefully read what you wrote about step-mom issues and I agree 100%. The thought of OW or any other skank makes me sick to my stomach. But, I keep having this recurring thought: I have two friends who are divorced, both because H's had A'. One got the OW pregnant and left and the other had it with our kids kindergarten teacher. Anyway, I keep thinking am I any less worthy than they are? I feel like why do they get to move on and start over. Am I that undesirable that I have to stay stuck in this nightmare and just deal with it? Don't I deserve better than someone who would do this to me? I feel like I am shortchanging myself. Can you understand that line of thinking.

Tell me more about this SI. I would definitely like the option of private messaging. And I do think there is info you could get me that I need from down there. Tell me where to sign up ASAP.

I hope things continue to improve there. Stay positive because I am not ready to be the one in a good place right now. Thanks, MP

Hey MP,

Yes, I do have those feelings about "what if" and "What I deserve", so I understand that completely. I also tell myself this, if 60% of MM cheat atleast once in their marriage, I have a 60% chance of the next H doing the same thing to me so why not stay and try to make it work with this one since we have two children together that deserve to be raised in a loving family with both parents if at all possible. Ofcourse that means I have to learn to cope b/c they don't need two parents who are together, but miserable. I think (who the h*ll knows), but I truly think my H has learned his lesson and won't go that route again. It is a gamble (whether with him or with someone new). But you know what, time is on your side. You don't have to get the big "D" right now, you know you have that option - a one way ticket out if it comes to that.

-SNS

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Still-n-Shock ]</small>

Hi. This is my first visit here. Last November I found out that my W had an ongoing A. We want to stay married and make this work but I can't seem to find a way to get past it. I'm still in pain, I feel anger. But, at the same time, I'm in love with my W

hey SNS - thanks for giving me the info. I will sign up today. Don't have much time now, but just wanted to fill you in. Things are so bad right now. I was up from 1-5 this morning, crying, miserable. He is so frustrated he is actually not even being so nice anymore. What a mess!!! I am going to try to sign up now so we can share some other info. Hope all is well there. MP

hi there - I went to the site and got registered. It was not letting me send a PM. Send one to me at MP64 and then I can just reply to you. I sent an email to the administrator asking how to send the PM, but I don't know when I will hear back. By the way, things are better here. Major meltdown by both of us for a change and as always, things are calmer now. We will see how long it lasts. Talk to you later. MP