OK… OK… OK… <P>Here's the lowdown from my first session with Steve Harley today…<P><B>Plan B can only be as effective as Plan A was!!!!</B><BR>(Where have I heard this before???..RMA?... K?…)<BR>Plan A must set up a framework where the wayward spouse must know, unequivocally, that there is a "safe", "non-threatening", yet "changing"(for the better) environment to come back to! If the wayward does not show signs of "recognizing" these things… Plan A should continue. Plan A is best until the wayward does show signs of recognition… and/or the betrayed's feelings turn to one of anger… resentment…(especially if that is directed to the wayward personally.) Plan B should be put off as long as possible and builds off the benefits derived from Plan A!<P>So… the upshot is for <B>me</B> is to stay in Plan A longer… if possible… (geez Chris… you were right too… am I surprised)<BR>Why?… since my Plan A hasn't demonstrated the desired results!<BR>I should only consider Plan B if I start getting really angry with my W…<BR>Just feeling sad(about) her not being around… or (in my case) feeling good when she is not around… isn't enough to move me into Plan B. If I can put up with the abuse(verbal) from her and the OM… do so… let it run off my back… if I can do it!<P>Since she sees me for about 10 minutes on pick-up and drop-off of kids…<BR>Do the following… <BR> Have kids 100% ready… 0(zero) waiting time!… If they leave in less than 2 minutes and that's all the time she there so be it.<BR>Do 0(zero) love busters… <B>especially the annoying behaviors</B>! . <B>K</B>… you knew it!<BR> If waving hello/goodbye bothers her… don't wave!<BR> If taking/bringing kid's stuff to/from the car bothers her… stop it.<BR> If sending endearments in e-mail bothers her… don't write them…<BR> If giving her presents/flowers bothers her… don't anymore…<BR> If there is a disagreement… present my facts… let her present her facts… and the decision is to be based on facts… try to eliminate "judgmental" decisions… decisions that overtly say her values aren't as good as mine.<BR> Remove any web sites that I have that will in anyway offend her… (such as my Reconciliation, History sites)… sorry guys… it's got to go (will take down on Wednesday)… to give Steve a chance to look at it. I'll leave my Plan B letter up though… Steve didn't have time to comment on it today… he might look at it a bit later…<BR> In general., <B>anything</B> that makes her unhappy…<BR>No, I didn't ask the "doormat" question… that I'll ask about tomorrow!<P>With that being said… Steve recognizes that as far as papers filed with the courts (for our pending motions and subsequent divorce)… all I can do is lay out the facts… whether they are disputed or not. There is nothing I can do about what has to be written down for the courts… I should not beat myself up over this! Steve says he can understand that I don't want to have the kid's and OM have overnights… and says that falls into a gray area and I have to make the call on it… but stick to the facts!<P>BUT… when I do talk to her… let her know I had to write the facts as I see them… that I'm not making a judgment about her values… the judgments (for legal issues) have to be left to the courts.<P>I have to get to the point (through a <I>continued</I> Plan A)… where I feel my W can recognize that I will take her back… by me doing everything to show that I care about her and will be willing to accept her back <B>with no judgments… and no 'I told you soes(sp?)'</B>… e.g. getting kids ready on time… keeping house clean… no annoying anything!<P>Steve says he can't judge right now where my W's anger/hatred, directed at me, is coming from… so he asked me to pull down the Love Busters Questionnaire at the MB site and fill it out from <B>her</B> perspective, as best I can, and send it back to him ASAP! He needs this to determine what <B>more</B> I can do to demonstrate those things that have and will change about me… so that when the OM dumps her… she knows she can come back here to something better!<P>Steve asked me… do I think the OM will dump her… and I said yes! I, just minutes ago. spoke with my oldest… and he said when W and OM argue… he(OM) just stands there, mouth open... not knowing what to say... (a good sign if you ask me!) But… I still need to work on <B>ME</B> during this time.<P>So….<BR>I have a follow-up appointment with him tomorrow at 4 PM (EST)!…<BR>And will provide hopefully more Plan A building skills to me, based on the questionnaire.<P>I felt the session was good. I wish he would have read a little more of the "history" I sent him last week… to understand the situation a bit more… but I was happy about the session all in all. I am <B>very much</B> looking forward to tomorrow's session… with hopefully a lot more constructive actions that I can do! Steve said I haven't found MB too late! , and feels my marriage can be saved (no guarantees).. but obviously finding MB sooner would have helped more!<P>Thank you one and all for your concern about me and my problems… <BR>I hope this post has helped some of you…<BR>I hope tomorrow's session… and the follow-up post I make will also be of benefit.<P>Working hard to save this marriage, <BR>Jim

Great! Keep on, keepin' on!<P>If you love bust. STOP! Apologize! Tell her you understand it was wrong & you are working on it. DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited December 27, 1999).]

This looks like good news to me. It is very helpful information and I will definitely utilize it in my own marriage. Thanks for sharing.<P>Thoughts and prayers are with you.<BR><P>------------------<BR>God Bless you and yours,<P>Sheryl W.<P>www.widesmiles.org/gallery/britanie<BR>

You had a really interesting session, Jim. Glad it went so well.<P>Keep us posted. I'm learning a lot through these.<P>Good luck.<P>lori

Hmmm...<P>I await tomorrows post...<P>Not sure what I think... but I'm here, caring and reading <P>~Sheryl

Good session Jim, and thanks for sharing- it has been very helpful for me and MAYBE I’ll make an appointment with him one of these days (when money comes back because right now is not here, it's been another betrayer —ha ha ha —).<P>Best of lucks in your next session.<P>Alex

Jim,<P>Thanks so much for sharing what you learned with us. Wow! Now, I'm reconsidering my intention to write the Plan B letter. <P>I'm not angry with H, but rather more really sad, & sorry for him. There are times when I begin to feel numb towards him. I think it's a defense mechanism on my part. I've pulled back, so to speak. I don't have any desire to contact him as I'm afraid of getting hurt again. <P>So far, I have talked with him when HE has contacted me. I have told him that I miss him too, when he tells me he misses me. I've been careful to keep the discussions light and on neutral ground. I NEVER mention OW. As a favor, I did mail him some stuff about jobs on the internet. I pulled up a website for him while he was on the phone one day, & I offered to mail some info to him. He sounded appreciative. I feel like he needs his space, & I am respecting that.<P>So, I guess I will remain in Plan A, for the time being, as long as I think I can handle it. But, I will NOT chase after him.

Jim,<P>Thanks for posting. It has convinced me I need to talk to S harley. Will make appt. tonight.<P>Email the guys in our "clib" your news. They may find it benificial.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Well I guess I was wrong about continuing to send her the gifts, but anyways. Happy to hear your session went weel , best of luck and God's blessings to you.<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>

Jim-<P>WOW!! Sounds like it went well. Sounds to me like you are feeling better about things, also.<P>Of course, I still have some questions (imagine that-LOL) If stopping the annoying behaviors is #1, how can you be sure what is annoying? I do know what my H main complaints about me are, but how can you be sure about the little things? I mean, how in the world would you know if waving goodbye is annoying them?<P>Sorry, I am just trying to make sense of all of this. I understand that Plan A is to help us be better people, show our spouses we have/are willing to change and maybe, just maybe, deposits some love units. <P>I guess it just seems to me that ANYTHING could annoy them at this point in the relationship- especially if OP and spouse are not getting along.<P>Anyway, that's for posting this. I am anxious to hear about tomorrow. Maybe I need to that the reins and give him a call myself.<P>Hang in there. I love the new ending to your posts!!!!!<P>Cheryl (working hard to SAVE my marriage, too)

Thank you for sharing what you and Steve talked about during your session. It sounds very informative and was educational for me. I really appreciate it. Hang in there and I'm glad you will be talking to Steve tomorrow too.

Jim,<P>YIPPEE!!!!! You had a GREAT session. Steve can really make you see where you are going wrong, when you THINK you are doing so darn great!!!<P>If good intentions were gold, we would all be millionaires..<sigh><P>I am anxious to see what he tells you tomorrow. <P>ceecee, about the annoying behaviors...I think Jim's wife already told him all these things bother her. Keep doing things and ASSESS the reaction you get...if it makes him feel guilty or uncomfortable, even if he doesn't say anything, you aren't supposed ot do it according to Steve.<P>Jim, I am really praying for you..got the candle going for you and Lori tonight.<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Thanks for your interest one and all... <P><B>Chris</B>...<BR>Mr. Plan A all the way...<BR>I will have to be an even more reserved individual... <B>patience beyond all else</B>!<P><B>mitme101</B>...<BR>I really hope it helps you too!<P><B>lori</B>...<BR>You bet I'll post tomorrow... it will be a bit later than today's post...<P><B>Sheryl</B>...<BR>I have some thinking to do on this as well...<BR>I really thought Plan B was what Steve was going to say... I hope I really can stick to a Plan A... I'm hoping for some concrete "DO"s more so than the "DON'T"s...<P><B>Alex</B>...<BR>I'm really glad I can pass this info on...<BR>I makes me put into writting <B>everything</B> he tells me right away so I can go back and re-read it later!<P><B>sidney</B>...<BR>Your point about "defense mechanism"... instead of losing all love from love bank is important...<BR>I will ask Steve about this... and if there is anything else that interests you... let me know!<P><B>Bill</B>...<BR>Spread the news... <P><B>jamie-lee</B>...<BR>Just because my presents end up in the garbage... doesn't mean yours will... Don't give up on giving your spouse as much 'good' as possible (or that they will accept!)<P><B>Cheryl</B>...<BR>I'm not sure I'm feeling better... but still thinking about all I was told.<BR>How do I know what's annoying... She tells me... sometimes it the "body language"... if it happens over and over again... it's consider <I>by her</I> to be annoying.<BR>The fact that almost <B>everything</B> I do (even breathing... breath Jim... breath) bothers her... bothers me... LOL-kindof?! <BR>Did anyone get that?<BR>Yes... like I said to my sister today... I will ask the <B>Doormat</B> question tomorrow!!! <P><B>NoTrust</B>...<BR>Let's spread the education! <P><B>Desiree</B>...<BR>You beat me to my reply back to Cheryl... I left it there anyway!<P>--------------------------------------<P>Hard medicine to take...<BR>Learning new behaviors hard to do...<BR>Constantly re-assessing what's happening...<BR>Failing many times over...<BR>Hey... if this was easy... would there be a forum here?!!!!<P>I love you all... <BR>You keep me sane... but most of all let me know there is a God out there talking to me through your words... your words of caring... <BR>Lord, let me hear you... and accept your will!<P>Working hard to save this marriage, <BR>Jim

Jim,<P>I didn't get the breathing thing....<P>Is that anything like the panting I do whenever I am in the same room as my H now????LOL! Sad to say, but true, I literally pant when in the same room with him....but it's all wasted right now <P>Desiree<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Desiree,<BR>You sound like me. I want to jump on my H everytime I see him. And now it's wasted energy here too. But we always had a good sex life and I really miss it. But if it was all about sex I wouldn't be here. I'm really learning alot about myself here. And also about my marriage. Thanks everyone. Whether you know it or not, you've become my lifeline.

NSR;<P>Sorry, I'm late as usual. Glad you had session, I knew you would. And I have to admit I am surprised Dr. Harley said to stay with Plan A right now. Considering what you have had to endure for so long, but what do I know, Absolutely NOTHING. <P>Hang in there friend and good luck with your session tomorrow. Your on the right track I feel talking with the good Dr. I sincerely hope all this works out the way you want it to. I'm lighting a candle and saying a prayer. I found a saying, thought it was appropriate to all of us here: 'There are some things you learn in calm........And some in storms.'<P>How true this is.

Jim, <BR>Got back from Vagas, had a great time....but enough about me, (or a new thread) I am glad your first session with Steve went well. I counseled with him the second time I found out about the affair, nd my H did as well, I think he does a great job at teaching you how to apply Dr. H principles to your own situation. For me, the continued afair ( two years) just got to be too much for me, and I was feeling a lot of hostility and wanted to LB...a lot!! So Plan B for me! It has been easier, even though we are moving forward with Divorce. He knows he holds the key if he wants back in our lives, just discontinue with the OP and recomit to the marriage. <P>------------------<BR>Susan<P><BR>

NSR:<P>I'm glad that you had a good session.

Jim,<BR>Wow! You know, when I first came here you were a great light to me and I want you to know that your kind words have helped keep me sane. I wish you all the best and I will pray for you.<P>God Bless<P>Peter<BR>

I have the <B>2nd session</B> and <B>follow-up</B> at...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/011275.html" TARGET=_blank>Second session w/ Steve Harley</A>.<P>Replies to "First session..."<P><B>Desiree</B>...<BR>All I meant about the <I>breathing thing</I> was that my W hates everything I do... and probably wishes(maybe) for <B>my</B> breathing to stop... (kindof morbid... but a grain of truth there)... yuck!<P><B>Mitzi</B>...<BR>God... I wish it was the sex... something I miss very much... <BR>Thanks for your reply... <P><B>devastated2</B>...<BR>I have a long road ahead...<BR>Your prayers mean a lot to me... <BR>I think God is telling me to reply to those in Plan A (instead of Plan B)... it will help me in my Plan A I guess! Who knows... maybe I'll put together a "Plan A - 101" post!<P><B>sue</B>...<BR>It looks like I'll be trailing you for a while... no Plan B for me... yet!<BR>I will still follow your story... and you...<BR>God bless for the reply... <P><B>K</B>...<BR>You were so right about those Love Busters... <BR>"pure" Plan A... is tough... do see <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/011275.html" TARGET=_blank>Second session w/ Steve Harley</A><P><B>Peter</B>...<BR>I expect to continue to help <B>all</B> with what I learn. I appreciate the prayers... more than anything else... those prayers... <P>Working hard to save this marriage, <BR>Jim