Hi!

I decided to come back here because I need to know if this is normal thinking. You all remember me and my husband Randyrail? Well, here is the thing. When my H. post he often shared what he mentioned onto MB with me. Yes, I did read his post as all of you know. Here is my problem.
I cannot let this go. I have been so battered by his A. that it tore me apart. OK nothing new but I cannot let his A. go! Every time I want to get close to him. I remember what he said to me about her and what he had post on MB. I still have a wall up around me. Counseling ended because of our insurance. I felt like I wasn't getting anything solved anyway. Just a lot of venting. How in the world do all of you continue your marriage? He said he fell in love with her and "experienced things he never felt before." He went on about her for months maybe a year. He expects that time will heal. Wrong! Time heals nothing! I still remember and feel the A. as if it was yesterday. When we go out and have family events, I am so miserable! I feel that he felt obligated to marry me because we dated for so long. I married him when I was 26 but dated him for 8 years. I just don't feel that he really loved me and I feel that he feels stuck with me. I ask him to be real about it and he denies it. And do I believe him? Of Course not! This is one vicious cycle here and I am so confused. If he would have come back and said; "I am so sorry, I was missing you, it didn't mean anything, I was fantasizing it was you, etc." Then I would be in a much better place. If you need to reread his posts, his member number is 26649! I haven't told him that I loved him since I found out about this whole thing. Which was back in March 2003. I just don't know what to do! And what haunts me along with the memories and the triggers is when I spoke to the tramp a few months after found out, she told me that he said that he had no regrets because it felt so right! I asked him if he said that and he said yes! It took a long time for him to admit it!
Can someone tell me like it is? Am I normal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I am sick of this and want to walk away. When does the hurting stop?
Ali

Hi Ali,

(((((((((((((Ali)))))))))))))
(((((((((((((Ali))))))))))))))

I don't need to go back and read....I remember his posts well....I remember the deep fog and the hurtful words. I remember your pain. When both spouses posts...for some reason hearing both sides make them stay with me.

Ali, first....let me say that YES you are normal, but I want to ask you some questions for you think about.

*Did he end contact and has he remained in no contact? If she was more important to him...why isn't he with her?

Marriage binds people in ways that are stronger than just mere sexual attraction. It's deflating to have heard the words he said about her...you may never forget them...but if you stay together...they will lose much of their power to harm you anymore.

Let's talk about biochemistry for a minute. That may sound like a strange subject, but it isn't. Let me tell you how it applies to your situation. For years, psychologists suspected things about love...but they hadn't proved it until recently. Helen Fischer...and English biochemist finally was able to measure what happens in the brain during the three stages of love. Each stage...is a unique form of biochemistry at work in your system. Lust...the first stage is marked by a high level of testosterone. But the next stage...Attraction...is a complex biochemical cocktail that truly drugs the brain. We've all heard the sayings "love is blind" or "crazy about someone" well the truth is...it's TRUE. What doctor Fisher discovered is that events occurring in the brain when we are in love have similarities with mental illness or drug addiction. Powerful drugs are released into the brain at this stage....and even though it's our own body making them...the result is the same. Dopamine...the same chemical activated by cocain and nicotine. Adrenelin makes your heart race and your hands sweat. Serotonin, one of loves most powerful chemicals can actually make us seem temporarily insane.

The results were surprising. For a start, a relatively small area of the human brain is active in love, compared with that involved in, say, ordinary friendship. So “that the face that launched a thousand ships" did so through such a limited expanse of cortex.” The second surprise was that the brain areas active in love are different from the areas activated in other emotional states, such as fear and anger. Parts of the brain that are love-bitten include the one responsible for gut feelings, and the ones which generate the euphoria induced by drugs such as cocaine. So the brains of people deeply in love do not look like those of people experiencing strong emotions, but instead like those of people snorting coke. Love, in other words, uses the neural mechanisms that are activated during the process of addiction.

If you know this Ali...if you can look at this from a scientific standpoint and realize that at that time Randy was temporarily insance...a drug addict....it may help just a little to forgive the stupidness he said. It was a lie created by a brain...where only a tiny part of it was working.

Please allow his brain to come back on line. The biggest obstacle to your recovery is probably no longer the OW or Randy...it's probably you chere. And this is a journey back that you need to make so that you CAN truly get past this ugliness.

I hope this helps in some little way chere. Pick up the book "Why We Love" by Dr. Helen Fisher...it is an eye opener and her results have been published in almost every newspaper and health magizine there is. It might help you forgive...the unforgivable.

(((((((((((((ali))))))))))))))

A whole new prespective Star! Thanks for the science lesson! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And the hugs.

How his A. ended was that he found out that she was sleeping with some other married man. And RR went off the handle because "she" was cheating on him! And it was all over the office that she was sleeping around behind RR's back. Ooohh, how dare her have another one on the side including her own husband. He told her off and she dumped him. Kind of funny huh? That is why he came to this site because she cheated on him!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Because I was in such denial when he was with her I couldn't say: Take him he is yours"! I think that would have been a lot easier to deal with than the mind games and seeing your husband greive over some ugly office tramp. That is me. I don't put up with that type of BS. And I am going against my own values. You know the sad thing was that when he came into town to visit me and the kids, he did not touch me or anything of a kind gesture. All but maybe a hug. He had it in his mind that if he did, he was being unfaithful to her.

OK, so I understand the brain part back then. I will definitely think about the chemistry inside that pea brain of his back then. Sorry for LB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I just think he is in the here and now and I am the now. In my mind he is just settling. There is no effort on his part to improve the marriage. Therefore, I cannot trust his heart. I kind of feel like an old shirt! You don't want to wear it any more but you don't want to get rid of it. So there it is.. just hanging in your closet. And that is where I am... in a stuggle with trusting.
He has made me more wise in ways that is damaging to me. I am almost paranoid. I become jealous which is not my nature at all. Girls on tv? Come on! I just hate this. I just wish I would get knocked on the head to make me forget this happened and live in bliss. A friend of mine is walking around like that. Her H. had an A. I wonder sometimes if she is on drugs because her attitude is so overwhelming! Almost unreal.
If he would help to make things right again, maybe the pain would lesson????? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Star did you feel some of that too? Why is this taking so long for me?

Ali

<small>[ October 29, 2004, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Hi Ali,

It sounds like your feelings and thoughts are similar to Gingersnap. Maybe she can help.

Ginger?

Ali...my experience was very different from yours. My H had ONSs that had nothing to do with love....didn't make it past the lust/testosterone phase. I certainly obsessed about those things and I had bad triggers for a very long time, but I didn't have the added pain of thinking my H was in love with these women. My H had a horrible "entitlement" problems and displayed narcissist thinking....very scary. It's a slightly different animal then you're dealing with...in some ways...even more troubling. The only grace...and there was little...was that I was spared your pain. I am so sorry this hurts so badly...wish I could make it go away...but I know this...those drug induced feelings have a time limit...they peak at around 6 months and they're gone around 18 when the reality sets in. So you are probably about there right now...in terms of HIS feelings. Now, you must deal with yours.

I think ginger definitely can identify with this...and she has truly struggled. Part of that is the same...neither H has recommitted, changed or really participated in a recovery program of any kind. If that continues...there are very few options besides....living unhappily with that, or setting a good boundary like Plan B.

"What we tolerate, does not change".

Hi Ali
I have wondered about you often and thought maybe you were doing better because you had not been around.Sorry to hear that you are also "stuck".

Yes I can relate,reading your post is like looking inside me,reading Stars response helps some but it hurts some also...sorry Star.
It hurts to think that all that stuff went on in my H brain over another woman while I was in the very next room(remember his was an internet A so most his chatting was done while I was right in the next room)

I got a book it is called the Dance of Anger it has helped some,still I have set backs.Seems I do really good for about 3 to 5 days and then I get angry again because my H does not seem to do anything to change.

I am also a person that analizes(sp)everything.So maybe I have over done this in his A, that I dont know.Maybe you have done the same.

Like you when H and I are out doing something it all feels fake and phoney to me.I miss the true deep happiness and security I once felt.

What to do??? I dont know,right now H and I are living apart,it does help some but somedays the loneliness kicks in and I almost feel worse.This also could be because my moving was not 100% my decission I feel like he manipulated me into it.He was always telling me to move,that we were not good together,that we needed to be apart so guess what I gave him his wish.

So does anything I say help?? Probably not,but this is what I have learned so far.I can only make me happy,this scar will remain with me forever,I am still afraid to break down the wall it is all I have to protect myself.We never want to hurt like this again,we do not want to give our all only for it to be thrown away.

I still remember everything my H said to me also about OW and how very wonderful she was,how he could not believe a woman like that could want him,like I was a nothing.He was impressed by her income only leaving me to feel like I was worthless because I do not make alot of money.

Sure he tells me how sorry he is but his lack of willingness to change says something different to me.I told him that words with no action mean nothing.

Yet I cant let go.Of my M or his A.Why?? I think it is by keeping the A alive I guess a part of me feels he cant hurt me again.Why cant I walk away from my M?? I guess there is still some love there,he is familar and I have a real problem with failing.I know I did not fail but still that is how I feel,if I was better than maybe the A would not have happened.I know what everyone will say about that last statement but it is a personal issue I know that I must deal with.I am trying.

I hope that something I said hits home for you.
It may not help much but still it helps to know your feelings are feelings someone else is dealing with and struggling with.

Good luck,take care.

Ohh Star*Fish! Ouch! OK not the same animal but in the same family. I bet though it is as equally as frustrating. Is he still acting that way? He must have a large ego? In ways, I wish RR just had a ONS. Emotional is a lot more powerful than sexual. But then again, the combo can be deadly. Not putting your situation down. You have a lot to deal with as I can see and read from previous posts awhile back. Going outside of the marriage is horrible enough. And I am sure the pain is just a bad. Betrayal hurts!

I guess I tolerate a lot! I guess I am too dependent on him in financial ways. And I am so afraid to leave. I guess I am hanging on to a shattered dream. I have never really been a quitter. But when is enough enough? Mom always did tell me I was a pack rat!

The other weekend we had the kids at their G-parents and we were supposed to go to a popular state park to see the fall colors, somehow 3 1/2 hours later we ended up at his college. That is where the memories and our love blossomed. The memories that we shared were nothing but great! But I felt an enormous amount of sadness while there visiting. I felt a loss of something that I thought I had was sacred. Makes sense?

Has anyone ever been to a movie theater or a restaurant and when you see a couple did you ever thought to yourself if that person is cheating with that person? Or has he/she been faithful? I find myself doing that a lot. We were coming home from Ikea, and at the light where a bunch of office buildings are, I noticed a couple in front of a car making out. Or just got done then they both got into separate cars and left. I just got a big sinking pit in my stomach. But has that ever crossed anyone's mind? No idea where I am going with that. I just feel so damaged and the fact that he is acting like nothing and continue the hurting pattern makes me really upset.

Ali

OH my God Ginger! That is it!

The big Ocean doesn't seem that big anymore! I must have been posting while you were too!

I am keeping the A. alive so I will not be vulnerable and get hurt! That is sooo true!

My H. always judged people by the career choices. Not sure if that is the right way of putting it. And here I am staying at home with the kids. I feel like I am a falure in his eyes because I am not bringing in enough or no money at all. That is why he found tramp to be attractive. AS a matter of fact, he told me he wants me off the account so he can have all control of the money. He hates to give up contol over "his" money. I buy food and what is nessecary in the house and he thinks I am over bord. I clip coupons find all the sales, shop at Aldi's. But I am still not good enough.
I hate failing too. But I argue with myself day in and day out. I am failing my life because I am cheating myself out of the happiness I deserve. I know what you mean by the familar part. It is like coming home. In ways a safety line. But how safe am I really when he hurt me so bad?
Well, I guess we are in the same boat. Maybe one day we can find a little island of tranquilty? Or maybe our husbands will be there waiting in open arms with tons of responsibility and remorse???????
Thanks Ginger! Hey where do you live? Let's have Coffee or tea! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Ali

Coffe sounds great. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have been thinking of you all day today.I have not had a good day,just life stuff dealing with poeple making stupid mistakes and I have to go fix them,it has to do with a car my H bought and I never recieved the payment book.Well guess what they left off part of the address so it never got delievered.They were suppose to install an alarm system never has happened why?? because they put down the wrong phone #.Well I got it all taken care of.
Why do I tell you this.........because these are small things that I am doing and each one makes me stronger as an independant person.Seperate from H,I am slowly becoming a stronger woman.
My D told me the other day that men like strong women.That is how my H saw OW,strong and sucessful.
However I do not think he really wants me strong,not dependant on him,when I tell him that soon I will not need his help that I will be able to make it finacially alone,he always says "I will always provide for you".

So you see there is also a part of this relationship he can not let go of either.Maybe your H feels the same he does not want you to become independant,he wants you to depend on him.By taking over the bank account that only puts him that much more in charge of your life.

Yes I believe the A stays alive in us because as long as it is we feel safe that another one will not happen.We fear that if we let it go and return to a semi-normal life that another A will happen.This is where I must work on myself becoming a more secure person knowing that I do not exsist because of my H,he does not make me who I am,he is only a part of who I am.

By the way I live out west!!!!!!!

That is too funny with your car. I had the same thing happen to me. For months, we noticed that Jeep was not cashing in our payments. We kept on getting phone calls that our payments where delinquent etc. Finally someone there had enough sense to figure out that they gave us the wrong coupons. I just had bad experienced with Jeep. My next car? Volvo S80. Can't do the minivan thing and cannot do another SUV. Can't afford the gas. For some stupid reason, his A. made me change my mind about minivans. I guess I don't want that suburban image of mommy! ANYWAY..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Sorry I went off there.

I can understand how you feel about living apart. When he was in Texas, I was so lonely and missing him like crazy. At night, the silence was so deafening. I couldn't wait until I looked into his blue eye again. Just like when he was at school, I was counting down the days until I saw him again. Well, until he started to act "weird." But knowing what I know now and dealing with this pain, I think it might be a lot easier to help me sort out what I need and want. Yes, I would miss him. But I miss him now. Kind of like what you said about missing the days of true happiness and security. I think I am mourning that. To me it I feel like I am trying to bring the dead a live again.
I never realized that this is what insecurity feels like. I hate it! An example. He came home and he was asked to sit in the stock holders meeting next week and go out for drinks afterwards. Naturally, I thought, hummm must be a good looking women in there. Or he is hiding someone. It is like I look extra hard.

RR does like control. That came out in our therapy. I like balance. I am not controlling but I am not submissive either. Make sense? What I observed in my childhood, is watching both parents making equal decisions. But I cannot understand the correlation of his A. and control. If he wants me in a certain place how does his affair fit in with that behavior? I usually have good insight but this one is too hard for me to see.
Oh I am soo still stuck! It is the whole clossure thing him telling me different stories. I just need to make sense of this. Just like you, I analyze everything. OK, We were talking the other night about the A. I told him I was so frustrated that he kept on changing the story to what happened. I found out new information and discoved that some of his stories he made up to glamorize it! He told me that they took long hot showers and then he admitted that he didn't. Then I found out that the two of the, would go back to his "love pad" at lunch and get it on! For some reason that killed me. Oh well, Only if I were stuck in beauty mudd. I'd be getting a pretty good facial! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Ginger you live out west? Rats! Anyway, need to go and walk before it rains. We are under a tornado watch! Cool! Love this weather. Almost 80 and it's almost November. Ahh, it is going ot be snowing next week!
Thanks for thinking of me!
Ali~

ps, I have no idea where this post was leading to!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can someone tell me like it is? Am I normal I am sick of this and want to walk away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ali, you are normal. We all heal at differing rates. We all have times when we are "sick of this and want walk away." But that only avoids the problems, not eliminates them. There is only ONE way to get to the "other side," and that is to go though the swamp of dealing with the problems and the changes that both spouses must do.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When does the hurting stop?
Ali </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The hurting stops when YOU want it to stop.

But right now, it appears that you don't want it to stop. You've "gotten used" to the pain and like the excuse it gives you to behave in unloving ways. You like the "control" it gives you over your husband. You want him to be unendingly reminded of what a slime he was and that you are perfect and unattainable to him anymore. If you don't love him, can't tell him that you love him even if you are hurting, then why do you want him around? You can hire a handyman. You can pick up anyone you want for sex. You can even hire a servant who will be at your beck and call for whatever you want.

But you are not "completers" of each other, equal partners in marriage and love when one of you seeks to have the "upper hand," the "superior" position, the "master/slave" relationship.

You want your "pound of flesh" from your husband, but it didn't stop at just one pound. You want the whole steer. Like gluttony, once you do get the whole steer, you'll likely be looking for the next one. Perhaps you should consider it like a "diet." You have to "deny yourself" some things in order to "get" what you really want.

Love IS vulnerability to getting hurt. There is no way around that. Until you are willing to take the risk of getting hurt again, you can't love and you can't recover your marriage.

THAT is a hard step for a BS because we KNOW the devastating feelings that betrayal dropped on us. The old saying; "burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice, shame on me" keeps ringing in our ears and telling us to "not let down our guard.

So we erect a 10 foot thick, 100 foot tall, stone wall, reinforced with steel, around our hearts and forget to include a drawbridge into our "castle." If no one can get in, how do we expect anyone to get close to us, nevermind learn to love us? We have to kick down part of that wall and install the drawbridge ourselves. WE have to CHOOSE to "open the door" to both the potential for someone to come in to either love us or hurt us. It's scary, but it's MANDATORY. We don't really have an option in this one, unless we want to live the rest of our lives in lonliness and isolation and fear.

Ali, it is hard and it is scary. But ALL choices have consequences, some good and some bad. You HAVE been hurt and you are hurting back. The hurting must stop and the drawbridge installed. You have to open yourself up to life again and to the possibility that you could get hurt again. You have to "risk" love again. Or else you know the consquences of being bitter, unloving, and emotionally dead....not where you want to go.

It begins with a choice. Choose today, and choose wisely. A year and half has been long enough, don't you think?

God bless.

I know but I am scared!

I invested so much into him and he stoled a lot from me. I don't trust his feelings. And I forgot who said it but if I let my wall down then it would be like he got away with slashing my heart.
Star*fish put the bio chemical that happens in the brain. It helps. But while we were apart, you would think that absense makes the heart grow fonder. I miss him like crazy and couldn't wait to be with him. Obviously not him. He couldn't wait to be back with ow. So all the bio chemistry was for her and I was old.
Why I am here? Still don't know. Believe it or not I am optimistic so maybe I am waiting for him to "take responsiblity" You know, I never really got a real heart felt apology. I never heard from his voice without spoon feeding him that he wants to make it right and make changes in our marriage. I mean both of us.
Tell me what to do to take that first brick down? How do I prepare myself?

ForeverHers,

It's quite impossible for you to decide for someone else what IS or is NOT enough time to heal from this.....especially since Ali is dealing with an unrepentant spouse even now after the fog has lifted, and there appears to be no recovery plan in place at all. Marriages survive infidelity and fail to recover all the time, because the marriage remains vulnerable and disconnected. I do agree that the biggest obstacle to this marriage now is probably Ali but there may be some really good reasons that she doesn't feel safe enough to heal.

The affair ended very badly....because Randy didn't end it....the OW started having another affair with another OM, and he got fired from his job for harrassing her. He obsessed badly over this woman. He was incredibly self absorbed and went through a horrid withdrawal...all of that is documented on this board. Lack of remorse, inability to empathize with Ali. Frankly I'm not surprised that after all this time Ali is still hurting very badly, because for the entire time he spent here...it was all about me me me and fog fog fog. His decision to stay with Ali seemed like "default" rather than desire...and I'm not sure that's changed.

So Ali....let me ask you some questions...

*There is a bunch of time missing from the story. From the time you guys left here, until now...what has Randy been like? What has he done if anything to make you feel safe or loved? How much effort has he put into repairing the marriage?

*What does your recovery plan look like?

*Are you spending at least 15 hours of undivided time together?

*Have you been honest with Randy about how the lack of remorse or regret is affecting you?

*Do you two use the Policy of Joint Agreement to make decisions?

*Have you been able to establish with certainty that there is no contact?

*Have the two of you stopped lovebusting?

*Are the two of you trying to meet eachother's needs?

*Do you feel as though your marriage is still vulnerable?

(((((((((((((ali)))))))))))))))))

<small>[ October 30, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ForeverHers,

It's quite impossible for you to decide for someone else what IS or is NOT enough time to heal from this.....especially since Ali is dealing with an unrepentant spouse even now after the fog has lifted </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starfish - My apology, I should not have not intruded. I will bow out.

Ali, my sincere apologies. I was responding to your post and have not followed your story. Sorry.

no no....please do NOT bow out. There is much of what you have to say that is absolutely VITAL and necessary for Ali's recovery. As I said...she is probably as much of, or a greater risk to this marriage NOW as Randy was.

But time is different for all folks...and situations are different. Randy struggled very badly and I'm not surprised that Ali is still holding on to alot of resentment.

I honestly think you can help...so please please do not leave.

Ali, I don't know if this scenario will help you get a perspective that will allow you to heal, but if it does, then I'm happy to share it.

Imagine that you are happily married. One year into the marriage, your husband starts a new job, that has some extra hours, but you are grateful for the money. It allows you to be able to afford a house. Then his personality starts to change, though at the time, you don't see it that way. All you know is that you don't seem to make him happy anymore. He becomes critical of you. He gets sick all the time, coughing, breath bad, etc...

He gets cranky at work, snaps at his boss, and you know he's treading on thin ice as far as keeping the job, and you need the money to make the house payments...

Then you find out that he's mentally ill, as he's hospitalized with a very scary diagnosis. Doctors tell you he's permanently lost and you are better off getting a divorce...

Watch "A Beautiful Mind" sometime, and imagine if you will, being Alicia Nash. He nearly drowns your baby, he talks all the time of people you know are part of his sickness... How do you forgive all that and love him for who he is when he's "all there"?

There's no putting Humpty-Dumpty together again; the shell is broken. There was no giving Alicia Nash back the life she thought she had with a funny, talented, brilliant scientist that she admired and fell in love with. But she knew he was still all those things in spite of the disease. Alicia could either dwell on the brokenness and be lost to herself and her children; or she could love even more, even stronger, through her choices.

I've lived through Alicia Nash's experience, in my own way. The man I described, working double shifts to achieve the financial dream of home ownership in a pretty physically demanding profession. Now he can't work even one shift a day - but it's all mental. He's not physically broken, but there's no giving me back the children I have not been able to carry because I've carried the financial burden for both of us and our one son we have had (series of miscarriages, attributed by doctors to "lifestyle" stress).

See, your husband has been through a mental illness of sorts. It's an illness he CHOSE, but still, he's no longer making those choices. Can you be as gracious as Alicia Nash and forgive what is forever lost; love who he really is and forgive those things that were done under the influence of a deranged mind?

I mean, if he were an autistic or tourettes syndrome sufferer, and shouted out things that you knew came from the illness, would you ever take them into your heart as thorns to crush you?

This is my first post on this board, so please take that into consideration, but I really want to help. I'm the bw...I still hate that. My h and I have been in recovery for almost three years. I may have a slightly different perspective on your h that I'd like to share...here goes.

From your recent posts,Randy is very controlling and has lied about the A to make it seem more glamorous than it was, it seems to me that Randy has some real self-esteem issues and the controlling behavior is his defense mechanism to keep you from leaving. Most men who try to keep their wives/gf's dependent on them do not realize it actually pushes them away.

The lying about the affair in this particular manner tells me he misses the fantasy, none of it was real. Your h got to re-invent himself into the man/lover he would like to be. Which, by the way , is also a BIG clue that he doesn't feel adequate to simply be himself. The ow didn't buy the fictional Randy for very long and now he wants to sell this person to you.

I don't believe he ever loved the ow, I think that as long as the fantasy endured, he loved who he got to pretend to be while he was with her. Face it, (I loved the biochem lesson too) chemistry fades whether you stay with that person or not, real love takes years to develop. It grows from shared experience and supporting each other through life's joys and challenges. You see the best and worst of each other and still value and respect one another...that's real. He never had that with the ow and if you buy that he had "real" love your buying a fantasy that even the ow rejected.

Point is, when you keep dwelling on the A you are feeding the fantasy,you are the reality and if your h didn't love you he wouldn't be so desperate to use even these destructive controlling mechanisms to keep you from leaving.

How to deal with this level of poor self-esteem...that's best left to the experts, it probably existed before you even met him.

Funny that you should mention that KaylaAndy!
My oldest son was diagnosed with an high functioning autism. My 6 year old seems to have more empathy then my husband. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Really, I see your point sincerely. Mental illness is not accepted in our society as a physical one. Or most cases go unnoticed. I believe my husband felt bad through our hardships before his A. But we all agreed in one of our MC sessions that I was 100% behind him during that time. He looks back and sees that I was there for him even with the distance. I suppose I can look at it that way too. Star*fish had put a simular post like that in which I do believe in that theory. But what urks me is that times when he came in to visit, why wasn't he putting that lust towards me? I mean I was supporting him unconditionally. Again I thought absence makes the heart grow fonder? But I was looked upon as the enemy.
The sad thing is that his attitude hasn't changed all that much. It has change in some ways but not where I can move forward and feel right and secure that this man really loves me??? So when we get around to talking about what happened, I feel he is lying to cover his true feelings. I always tell him; How am I supposed to fix things if your not being honest with me?" He just shruggs his shoulders and gives me that empty look in his eyes.

I will take that suggestion into heart. I really will. I need all the help I can get. And I will try it. maybe if I visulize bandages around his head it will help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sorry, I like to have some humor!

Hey Star*Fish, I will give you a complete run down later on. We are carving pumpkins in a few and I need some time where I am not interruppppppted! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Ali

Wow Happymom! I am totally speechless! OK not to over analyze this! So by me still being stuck, I am giving in to his fantasy? Do you think I am giving him some sort of sick admiration as well? Analyze part---Maybe he wants another ow and doesn't know how to love? Or love in the level that I am looking for. Mature love that is. But could I be a source of comfort? Wow! I am going to be up all night thinking about this one.
Thanks Happymom! I think you are right on too! I should take some Tylenol tonight because I know I my head is going to hurt!

Ali

Ali - I think you're getting it.

Here's another word picture (I like Gary Smalley's relationship building program and he teaches to use word pictures a lot to enhance communication)...

Sometimes when people have emotional wounds, they get stuck in a limbo of pain, literally. And even if they're not eating a ton, they don't exercise like they should, and all that negative energy can have the effect of weight gain. (Speaking as a woman who's been over 100 pounds too heavy), heavy people are not jolly, happy-go-lucky care-free people.

But at some point, you will see a person in a heavy body make the decision to let go of all the weight. The treats don't even tempt them, they are so ready to heal from the pain. It's hard work. Everytime they look in the mirror, they feel horrified at what has happened to their bodies. But despite the discouragement of the slow and deliberate path to permanent weight loss and emotional health, they deal with the issues that caused the weight gain in the first place. They exercise; move, breathe, sweat, and discipline their thoughts and their appetites.

It will take me at least another year for me to let go of all the weight that came with my issues. But I've let go of about 25% of it now!! I had to lose two babies in four years, lose a couple of jobs, choose out of another, lose my sense of financial security, have my husband's lack of employment shoved in my face with every bill we can't pay...

It's hard work to forgive. It's hard work to do the inner work to move past the past. But it's the only way to heal.