After several months of suspicion, and questions (and yes, lots of LB's), I discovered e-mails between my WW and the OM on 09/07/04. For months before D-Day I had suspected that she was having an affair with this guy who was a member of a Dinner Club that we had belonged to for about 18 months, but anytime that I brought it up she basically told me that I was letting my jealousy get the better of me, and that nothing was going on. However, I continued to see signs of his attraction to her, i.e. looking her up and down ALL THE TIME, and making some inappropriate comments like "that's a nice slit up the side of your dress". WW would tell me that it was OM's weird sense of humor, they were just friends etc.

OM is married and has two children, and in the middle of this we had our first child who is now 13 months old, so I was inclined to believe her. During football season we had a standing invitation to OM's family's house to watch football games each Saturday along with many other friends. We spent time together as families on a VERY regular basis.

I found this web-site on D-Day +1, and we entered counseling on 09/16/04. WW agreed to end all contact with OM, and we began working on everything. On 10/04/04 I had a melt-down after coming across a trigger (she still was using his name as a password to a web-site), and we had a terrible fight. After we were able to calm down and talk some more, she confided that she had been in contact with OM within the past week, and had called him when I left WW's presence during the fight.

Again, she promised no contact with me, and at the next counseling session promised no more contact. During the next month it really seemed that we began to make a lot of progress, and I felt that "maybe" we were starting to get past it.

However, over this past weekend, I started to have a gut-feeling again. I realized that she had never really gone through a withdrawal. I tried to see if there were any new e-mails to her account, but none. But something kept on nagging at me. I asked if things were better, and she said yes. I told her that I was afraid things were going well because she was still in contact with OM, and she said no, it is going well because of changes we were making, etc. Then I installed Google desktop search on the computer (a really good, simple, free tool). Within a day, I found using this that she had created a completely new hotmail account, and was still in contact with OM on a regular basis.

I decided to give her a chance to come clean, and asked her about contact via e-mail, with several outs. I asked whether she had created a new e-mail account, even if she didn't use it anymore, and asked whether there was any other contact. I told her that lying would hurt much more than the actual contact.

Again, she lied, and when I confronted her that she was lying and that I knew she was lying, she became very angry, and defensive, and told me that if I weren't checking up on her everything would be fine, and that when I do things like that it just makes her want to end the relationship. She can't be in a relationship with me if I don't trust her, etc. Basically, putting the blame on me to direct it away from her mistake.

At this point she notified OM at her first convenience to warn him that I knew (again), and that I may tell his wife (very perceptive). Next, she lied to me again when I asked if there was any contact, and then came clean later.

Our marriage counselor advised me to contact OM and ask that all contact stop, and tell him that if there is any more contact, no matter who initiates it, that I will go straight to his wife, and will discuss everything that I know. To this point I have only told her that there was an affair, but no details. According to WW, OM is not speaking about the A with his spouse, and no counseling is taking place (he is a Psychiatrist).

So here I am, wondering how to trust again, and move forward. I can only keep my fingers crossed that there won't be any more contact, but every time I catch her, it is another chance for her to get smarter about the contact, and just do it another way. I'm afraid that my ability to catch her will be surpassed by their abilities to find ways of contact that are not traceable.

If there is more contact, will she feel guilty enough at some point to tell me? How do I keep trying to move forward, if she is unwilling to even take the first step of no contact? The A lasted for about 18 mo before discovery, how many "relapses" can I expect to have.

Right now, my goal is only for her to tell me if there is contact again. I am prepared for, and am expecting some more contact again, just want her to be honest. The lying is driving me nuts!

BS (me) 30
WW-32
Married-7 years
Together for 9
1 daughter 13 months
D-Day 09/07/04
E & PA 01/01/03 - ??
Last Contact 11/01/04

The most frequent advice on this forum is not to wait with exposure to the OM' wife. There will be anger from your wife, but in her hearth she knows what is right. It is very rare that exposure really hurts the M in a perspective of some weeks. Waiting with exposure on the other hand frequently does so since the A is alowed to go on.

But when you do, prepare yourself for some days of anger and very harsh words! It is very important that you then do not answer in kind. Bite your tongue if you have to, or leave the room. You should be respectful and firm. Do not give disrespectful or angry statements. Do not be drawn into arguments. Be civil and respectful of her. Should your emotions make this impossible, go for a walk or something. Your wife is not open for reason at the moment. Trying to argue is as useless as trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline. So stay out of the fighting!

There are several good books that will educate and give you strength and hope for this great challenge in your life: Here in the MB site you can buy “Surviving an affair” authored by dr. Harley. “Thorn asunder” is a very good book. “Love must be tough” is also recommended by many.

Until you get the books, read all you can on this site. In additions to these forums the site has also many high quality texts that very much are relevant to your situation. In the forums you can find many in similar circumstances and many furter along the path to recovery. It is possible to go back and find old posts. If you click the name of the poster you find a page with info about the poster, and a button with a list of his/ her previous posts.


You are now in much pain. Your M (marriage) may seem destroyed beyond repair. And your very person may be crushed and turned into a wreck. But there is hope! There are thousands of couples here in the forums who have recovered their M successfully, even when the disaster initially seemed complete. If you are a Christian then pray and seek God in this. Many testify to the strength they have found that way.

Edited to include: Look up Forevertogether's post in the recovery board, on the status of their M at the 2 year aniversary of their d-day! It will give you hope.

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]</small>

Contact the OMs W today... do not pass go..do not collect $200. This is VITAL to ending the A.

Yes...it causes everyone to be very upset...but after the dust settles...damages are repaired.

You are doing what you have to do to protect your family. It's not revenge...and it's not your W's decision.

The OMs W also has a right to know. Your W is doing her part inflicting harm on OMs family as well.

You can't do this alone...you've tried that. Contact was never cut off, they've created new ways to continue contact...it's all about what they can get away with.

Show your cards... your W CAN'T be trusted right now..she's proved that.

This road is going to get much more rocky before it gets smoother...but I'm going to get some help over here for you ... people you can relate to.

Hang in there...sorry you're here under these circumstances.

I have to agree that you aren't sparing anyone by NOT exposing the affair to the OM's W.

In my case, the other spouse knew - but didn't tell me. I found out from reading some emails my wife had sent to the OM.

As a result, the affair went on a lot longer than it should have. It was only after I found out that it ended cleanly. The OM's W, like you, had asked for no contanct, but both my wife and the OM ignored her.

My belief is that the only way to break this is to bring as much pressure as possible on the two peoople invovled - and to make life as difficult as possible for the OP. As long as he thinks he's in the clear, he's probably not going to abide by any NC agreement.

Tell her today.

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: AndrewA ]</small>

When I initially found out about the A, I told the OM's Spouse about the affair immediately. However, since then I have only had one other contact with her requesting back an item that we had left at OM's home. I told her at that time that I didn't want OM to have an excuse to contact WW again, and I told her then that they had contacted each other recently (10/04/04). Our counselor has suggested that I should now give them a chance to cut it off, and if there is contact then they know that there is a consequence.

I am more interested in figuring out how to trust, or even find out what is to be expected. If I can expect another couple rounds of contact I want to be prepared for that. In the mean-time I am following Plan A as best as possible.

I have read the following so far: Reconcilable Differences, Torn Asunder, The Monogamy Myth, and I am currently reading Surviving the Affair.

Thanks for the advice, keep it coming!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi TNB.

Sorry you find yourself here, but here is a great place to be in your situation !

Your wife is saying words from my own wifes ( squids) mouth and acting her script !

Reading your story, I will coment andadvise only from my own personal experience.
Firstly are you making an effort to 'plan A' your wife (i.e. make yourself all she loves in you by meeting her emotional needs, avoiding lovebusters etc so that she cannot ignore her love for you) ?
If you are not doing this you need to readup on Plan A ( Surviving an affair, this website, search these boards for wonderful bundled posts by ARk ^^) and effect this regime as soon as possible.

This sets an environment at home and a mindset in you that is conducive to attracting your W away from her affair. It aslo helps you to think straight and counter-intuitively at a difficult time.
It is important that this happens. Instinctive behaviour in a BS is highly supportive of the warped rationalizing some WS do to justify the affair in their hearts.
Once you have taken steps to create a welcoming place for your W to come backto you can consider your Nuke of Love : exposure.

Do you have the kind of proof of an affair that would convince a hostile third party ? I could not ascertain this from your post.

By this I mean transcripts of emails or texts that support an EA or a PA along with dates of contact etc. Loveletters etc do the same thing.

If you have incontrovertable proof you must gently but insistently make it available to OMs wife. You ropinion won;t do jack - OM will lie to convince his wife you are lying and crazy. Proof is inarguable.

OM has zero impetus to stop the affair right now. He can eat cake at home and with your W.

exposing to his W has the following effects:
* OM dodges crockery for a day ro so..always nice to consider for a BS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
* the bindings of the affair are exposed to the light of truth. That sounds grand but its true - lies and secrecy are usually the bindings of affairs and the disappear like vampires in sunlight when forced into the scrutiny of the OPs spouse. OM backed off immediately I sent proof to his GF.
* You gain an ally in keeping the affair dead in his spouse
* His W gets the information she NEEDS to make informed decisions in her life. If her H is having an affair she deserves to know.

YES it is possible that your Ws affaor is one of teh very few with strong enough bindings to withstand exposure and they may live together. Even then you are not hopeless: plan B forces them to see each other OUTSIDE the factasy world of the affair.

Exposure is so empowering to the BS , usually effective and is as scary as hell but I do not see why OM should back off without exposure.

Read books and this site - information is power.

Plan A and exposure NOW.

All blessings - you CAN do this, even I managed it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I can expect another couple rounds of contact I want to be prepared for that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an interesting question..and I don't think I've ever had to answer anything like this.

Are you willing to accept "a couple of more rounds?"

Your W is having an A... what if the "couple of more rounds"... happen to be over a span of time, while they become better at covering their tracks ? So say you don't find any "proof" for a couple months ? Does that mean if you find proof in February or March of next year...it's okay with you ?

That gives the A 4 or 5 more months to grow and take root.

Gosh...I hope Andrew pipes in some more..and I hope Bob Pure comes over...I think your MC has lead you to dangerous terrain.

Whew...thanks for showing up Bob...I knew you'd be able to offer some great advice here.

It's a diffiult situation, I know, and I am only a month or so into this myself.

But...I think it's imperative that you draw a firm line on no contact. I know in my case, there would be virtually no chance for any kind of rebuilding if my wife were still in contact with the OM.

Giving them a chance to do the right thing is noble. But...the fact is that they've had PLENTY of chances to do the right thing, and they haven't done it yet. You have the hammer...complete exposure to the OS. I'd use it ASAP.

So am I to understand from everyone that they were 100% successful w/their NC after the A?

Not trying to be a smart-ellic, just curious. I will take this under advisement, and visit w/my MC about it.

At this point I want to be careful about this. We have agreed to a course of action, and part of the reason for this course is to give my WS a reason NOT to contact him.

Again, I have confronted OM, and he knows the same thing. I think that at this point if I run to the other spouse it will throw them together again.

Also, it may be helpful to know that the OM's spouse does believe that the affair happened. I'm sure that he attempted to lie, but eventually admitted it to her. However, they have not moved beyond that point.

Opinions?

Hello,

Your wife is a total cakewoman because she knows that there seems to be no consequences to her continued lying and being in contact with the OM.
You are willing to forgive over and over again.
Her comment that if you would stop checking up on her (and finding she continues to betray you) everything would be fine is unbelievable.

"No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change." She needs shock therapy.
Contact an attorney and also inform her that you are seeking an attorney and probably you will see how her actions will change. Judge her by her actions and not her words because her actions speak volumes. She does not respect you and will continue not to respect until you respect yourself and stop being such a doormat. This is my opinion but if the roles were reversed do you honestly think your wife would accept such actions from you without consequences?

TB No contact is an absolute requirement of recovery.

FIRSTLY because your WW cannot withdraw if she keeps in contact and secondly it is the ULTIMATE gesture of support for you and of ending the deliberate humiliation of the affair.
I Can't believe your NMC is telling you to suck it up.

My Missus has contacted OM once in eight weeks now, and was told to keep away by OM. NC in place for the last six weeks and recovery has properly started now as a result.

I think that at this point if I run to the other spouse it will throw them together again.


Every BS fears this including me. But WHAT is your ambition here - to keep your WW in yoru house and your bed but in the OM arms and dreams OR to kill the affaoir and win her back?
If you are happy with the humiliating, dilute mariage you have now, don't do a thing. Your WW and OM certainly won't change a damn thing.

Plan A and expose: fire your nukes and be empowered. If she DOES leave you it will be because shes having an AFFAIR NOT because your exposed.

All blessings

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

BryanP,

I have one suggestion. If this OM is a psychiatrist( MD) or a psychologist(PhD) interject some vague references in your WW presence of contacting that state boards ethics panel. If the OM is acting the way you describe there is a greater chance that he MIGHT ( stress might) be involved sexually with one of his patients also.

This is such a taboo area, the OM if told about what you MIGHT do( after cleaning his underwear) will take that threat VERY seriously. In most states it involves IMMEDIATE investigation and if found true, loss of license and felony criminal charges. You have a HUGE 2x4 to use on this guy, please use it wisely and ONLY follow through if you have proof. ( Look up his credentials on the internet. Most states have an area were license infractions are posted).

O.K., I feel like we are all mis-communicating on some level.

I understand, and so does my MC that all contact must cease. My WW also understands this, and has not had contact in several days now.

Thank you for your advice. I am considering having a longer conversation w/OM spouse. I am not willing to allow this to continue.

I was hoping to hear what other people's experience had been regarding NC, and make a determination if this was abnormal or not to have trouble cutting it off. I have a feeling that I am not the only one who has had to battle with stopping the contact. Bob Pure, it sounds like maybe you have had this experience too to some extent.

My MC wants the contact to stop, and so do I. He is not telling me to "suck it up". He is telling WW to "cut it out".

Thanks again for the help.

TB,
Everyone is different....some have no problems.... others slip once or twice. Others continue on....while others...well they can't be saved..... the betrayed spouse throws in the towel.

This is all entirely up to YOU...what YOU are willing to go through.

Nobody can tell you that.

What do YOU want ?

Withdrawal from the affair can take anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months...and that's from the point of No Contact.

If contact is renewed...in ANY way...the withdrawal clock is set back to day one...starts all over again.

Being a FWW myself I can only tell you from my experience what worked with us and is still in place.

Ok Aussie got advice here, I guess from Bob and the guys and gals giving you the same here, that ANY contact with OM had to STOP right away.
If not he had to set out consequences.

So he told me bluntly that our M was conditional on me never contacting OM, that if he ever contacted me I would let him know right away, and there was no room for compromise.

So being a cunning WW in the fog I immediately said ok and started to work out ways I could get around the NC agreement. I don't think I fooled him for a moment and like you he 'knew' his WW was up to something.

I guess in a way I was lucky as I actually failed to get into contact with OM back then but he did catch me trying. I think Bob will attest to his anger and I'm sure he was heading for divorce and when he saw a family lawyer - he actually just updated his will - I was a complete mess and reality started to set in at that moment. Withdrawal wasn't that hard looking back on it but I didn't have a big romance thing either, it was more friendship that got out of hand.

But he would have kicked me out that I know 100%. He told me the kids would be ok with him and I could go live as a sad single all I liked..ouch.

The bottom line...consequences for your actions. HE set them and he was prepared to carry it out. If he had kicked me out he said that when I had managed NC he said I could come & talk to him, if he was available. If he cared any more....double ouch

So now we are working through our M issues, relations are not bad, but we have a time to go yet and issues to resolve.

If you allow contact to continue then you allow the A to blossom like a weed.
Your ww has to choose this but if she does not then there have to be consequences.
perhaps the first time its further warning & an explanation she is hurting you - sorry we won't care much in this state but will a lot latter - followed by you clearly saying if she continues then she needs to move out, etc, etc. At the same time you should be doing the plan A thing as hard as you can, showing her the man she married. Reminding her of all the dreams she had made with you.
I am only now appreciating how hard this is for the BS. You all amaze me.

Some of the other things you were advised about contacting the medical board & the OM’s wife again are all good moves you can include in your NC agreement, or leaving the 'all you wanted to know about divorce' leaflet next to your coffee cup (when questioned by me Aussie said he wanted to know his options - my heart sank into the centre of the world & frightened the h3ll out of me). The aim here is NOT revenge but to place pressure via the reality of the world crashing into their fantasy. And its not pretty when it crashes.

If NC is actually taking place, then 7 to 10 days in your ww should be starting to sit for long periods just waiting for the phone or looking at the PC, periods of silence. Things like that at least, You’ll see it and know it. If it’s not happening then there is a good chance contact is happening, though its not a 100% check of course just a darn good chance.

NC is probably 1 third of the battle. Then you have to start on forgiveness and recovering your M. Remember, though I am 100% for rebuilding a M, the ball is in your court and if you want to leave the M in the end, that’s your right and choice. I hope you don’t though and I hope your WW finds out how lucky she is.

All the best

Thanks so much AW.

Over the past few days, we have discussed these consequences quite a bit, and I myself have added Divorce as another consequence. I think that WW is coming to grips with how serious this is. She understands that her relationship w/ OM will not last in the "real-world".

She has vowed again to NC, and we are now at 6 days since last contact.

Thank you all for your help, I may be back for more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by trippnbillies:
<strong>...
I was hoping to hear what other people's experience had been regarding NC, and make a determination if this was abnormal or not to have trouble cutting it off. I have a feeling that I am not the only one who has had to battle with stopping the contact. Bob Pure, it sounds like maybe you have had this experience too to some extent.

My MC wants the contact to stop, and so do I. He is not telling me to "suck it up". He is telling WW to "cut it out".

Thanks again for the help. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TB,
I too am having a hard time getting my WW to stop contact. She has sent two NC letters thus far, and broke the first one within a day, and the second within a few days. She tells me she understands why I want her to have NC with OM, but doesn't think she can. I have been battling this for 6 weeks now. It is driving me crazy. I am trying to change my habits, been reading here, books, talking a lot to my WW about what I want. Nothing seems to work. Everyone I talk to about her having NC agrees that our M won't last if she doesn't break off all contact, but she won't. I can only hope she sees the light soon. I don't know how long I can take this. I keep telling myself to make it 'till New Years (1-22-05 to be exact), that will be 4 months. Somedays I feel I can make it that long, others I am not so sure I can make till tomorrow.

I am trying hard, and am learning a lot in the process. My WW says she can see how hard I am trying, but won't give me the guarentee that she won't break off contact with OM.

If someone does have an answer about what to do I too would like to hear it.

MIF?

One thing I did forget to say is that during withdrawal, the period she is withdrawing from the OM, you'll get a lot of reactions.

She will need your patience and support and you'll get NOTHING but a load of no.2 thrown at you.

It will vary depending on how addicted she is to OM. Make her a cup of tea for no reason, be NICE, you may not get a thankyou or you'll be snarled at like a tiger with a sore paw, or have abuse thrown at you and the next minute she'll be asking why you are avoiding her.

THIS is the time to keep your cool because we do remember how you respond and it has a great impact on us at least it did with me. I was a surly sulking grade A b1tch I think and Aussie was so nice. He says he was 'steaming' inside but he kept it in and stuck with it.

I always wonder you know if we are 'testing' the BS in some why more instinctively then any planned move, trying to find out if you REALLY are the bloke we married. Something deep within wanting to know. Might sound crazy to you but why then in all the emotional fog do I clearly remember Aussies actions.
He was so nice I wanted to KILL him. Honestly.

I think I did my best to drive him away but it didn't work, thank God.
Just expect this sort of thing to some degree or other. Oh and comments she makes don't take it heart.
A good example is this classic I said to Aussie 'If you could only let me finish my affair it will be all ok" Just stop laughing because it still embarrasses me.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So keep working at it together.

Fellas:

You need to remind your WWs that you have a life to live, too. Only one - no do overs, no repeats.

If you want to spend it in a celibate, sterile, holding patterin "in case" your WW comes out of it, fine, but remember - you are turning over your life's happiness to her.

I realized that my WW was not going to have any respect for my dignity or even give a fig about my fulfillments until I first did. I told her in no uncertain terms that I was not going to put up with that sort of emotional abuse - and don't kid yourselves, what your wife is doing is a form of emotional abuse - any longer. I told her that I could no longer accept the sterile arrangement that we had, that I too wanted passion in my life, and that if I wasn't good enough for her then I'd find someone for whom I was.

The key is that I wasn't kidding. I'd come to the end of my rope, and unless I was going to accept the rest of my life in that sort of arrangement, as I had already suffered for the past decade, then I'd have to move on.

WSs must wake up and see that even a betrayed has limits. Betrayed must see that, too. If you guys are reaching your limits, you must let your WSs know, because they have to realize what is at stake.