Mr and Mrs. GS,

I could not agree with RIF more. Please seek counseling so that you both have a third party to talk to as well as guide you. The folks here will do their best to share with you their experience and what they have seen here in the past, but a good counselor can really help.

You both will have many ups and downs, but I do think you two have started off on the right foot. Don't rush this OK? You will KNOW many things intellectually, but it takes time for "emotional" side to catch up.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Is it possible to read the posts by K.? BTW,you were correct, I was looking over the shoulder of Mrs. G when you suggested that I knew her better then anyone else. We both laughed. One thing for sure that I've learned in life (to add to all the new things I'm learning) and that is to never, never, forget your sense of humor. We both believe that. Did you hear the one about the wife who had an affair?

Mr. G

Well a big step has been taken today. Mrs. G and I have our first meeting with the Harleys, 11:30 Thursday and Mrs. G is close to selecting an IC for herself, all of this arranged by Mrs. G. I might add. I guess I wonder if I too, need some IC help, I think I'll hold off for the time being.

Lots of LB deposits going on in the Goodstuff household.

Oh, one more thing JL:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't rush this OK? You will KNOW many things intellectually, but it takes time for "emotional" side to catch up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect that "therein lies the trap", thanks for the advice, I'll be on the lookout.

Mr. G

Mr. G,

I hope you realize how unusual it is for the WS (wayward spouse) do what your W is doing. Thank her and I mean it. Here is K's story K's Story. You will find it interesting. If you do a search using the search function look under recovery and use the key word Chronicles. You will find listed SKM's Chronicles and that will give you an idea of how long it can take a WS to come out of withdrawal and reengage in the marriage.

I will tell you that I have had the pleasure of meeting SKM and her H and they are wonderful people with a very good marriage and a baby boy now. This stuff does work as I think you will realize when you counsel with the Harley's. Everything I have ever heard is that they get right down to it and "coach" people to better marriages.

Hang in there this is really a long trip, although you two are doing very well right now. Don't despair if you encounter some down spots.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
I just read K's story and indeed it is inspiring. Thanks so much for the link. I read a little further into the thread and how Francis was burdened with having to be the strong one of the family. Of course, that caused me to think of my own situation. I have always been able to exhibit certain strength in my day to day life. But as I sit here now I feel that I've lost that strength and I wonder how it will ever return. The day after Mrs. G informed of her current affair I woke up early (if I slept at all) and went to the computer to put my feelings on paper. It felt like it was something I needed to do, something to help make me feel better. I gave it to Mrs. G and I guess it inspired deep feeling in both of us as she read it because it was our first deposit into each of our LB's. My point is this, I just revisited those words that I wrote some six weeks ago and they are the words of a broken sad man, pityful and alone. Even today, I am still that same man and it worries me to no end. How long can Mrs. G tolerate (opps, wrong word) endure such a pityful man? Since Mrs. G reads these posts I know that she will see these words and perhaps this is a question to her but I would indeed aprreciate your view on this.

Perhaps I'll post my morning after letter, let me think about that one.

Mr. G

My guess is, that how I felt as the BS is a common feeling. I know this to be true based on the many posts I scanned these few weeks. The pain is like nothing else I've ever experienced and continues to be. What follows are my words to Mrs. G the very next morning (It is way long so if your not up to it just skip past it):

I've edited out my response, sorry, but just a bit too much mush, even for poor little old me.

Mr.G

<small>[ November 19, 2004, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Goodstuff ]</small>

I sorry, three posts in a row without waiting for a response, I am indeed a sad case <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JL,
I just finished reading SKM's story. Oh my, it certainly was inspiring reading, but I hope that Mrs. G reads it as well. I think Mrs. G has guilt and plenty of remorse and I think that may be a big motivator for her to seek help, plus I think she loves me. I love her for that and I will continue to stay-the-course. (all this mushy talk is so out of caracture for me). She went to have her fingernails done about two hours ago and I sit here and wonder if she has fallen off the wagon, I am indeed a sad case.

I hope Mrs. G posts here often, but realize that the computer is not her friend. I hadn't thought about it before now, but I have to wonder if she has a certain fear, as her old life is just a click away (don't forget honey, I have spyware everywhere <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Mr. G.

<small>[ November 16, 2004, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Goodstuff ]</small>

I wonder what this will look like to me in a year from now, it is so easy to feel sorry for myself. As I look back at the words I write I feel so textbook, four posts, five posts, 100 posts in a row, so, so textbook..........

This is Mrs. G,

I am sitting here waiting for the phone call to make my first professional help appointment. I am so excited to finally get to the bottom of all my problems. Mr. G and I have had some of the most wonderful talks, as well as heartbreaking, over the past few weeks. We are finding out so much about each other. I do worry so much about him. I feel i am getting to understand the reasons why I had my affairs and it is now so comfortable telling him. So much is coming out and he keeps telling me that he wants me to be honest and tell him everything. I am, last night more came out and it goes way back, even before the first affair. I keep telling him that maybe we should wait for professional help before i continue, but he insists that i tell all. Well I think I am killing him slowly. He woke up this morning feelng like such a bad person. I keep telling him that its not all his fault. Back then I was afraid to tell him anything about my feelings. I didn't know how. I was the perfect wife (ya right). I never do anything wrong.(ya right) People always looked up to me for help and advice. He continues to feel I am going back to that other place and I am NOT! It has been hard, I have felt depressed, but each day that I am so free of lies and guilt I want to burst from happiness. I keep telling him "Why would I go back?" "I have never felt so close to you". I know he is scared and feels he was the one that pushed me to do what I did. It was both of us that did this. We are on our way to repair this mess. I am so excited that we are building that new relationship. I love my husband and I am going to do everything possible to prove that. So Mr.G get ready for that not so perfect wife of yours, I am coming home. p.s. thank GOD for spyware lol

Mr. G,

You words are very eloquent and I suspect they surprise your Mrs. alot. I believe that as you read you will find that you are not alone in your thoughts. You will go through great valleys of despair and then you will go up the rollercoaster again. This all takes time. But, you questioning things and surely your marriage is very normal at this juncture.

Mrs. G,

I am glad that you are being honest with your H and you are right it is killing him in ways, in fact many ways, but if your marriage is to survive he will need to endure this for awhile. I would like to caution you to reflect on what you told him and how you tell him, especially when describing your perceptions of his role in the marriage. You need to understand that you are still close to your disclosure day and the last affair. Further, you have used many excuses to justify and explain the choices you made, and I suspect many of them centered around negative thoughts about your H. Old habits die hard, so you will tend to emphasize his failures.

I would like you to write down for safekeeping some of these justifications and revisit them in 6 months. I think you will be surprised how you view them. I am not saying that the MR. does need to address some things, but the tendency is to focus on the negative and ignore the positive when it comes to justifying affairs. In 6 months you will see a better balance than you do now.

Finally, you need to realize that your H is now in a very hyper sensitive state. Every word you say will be heard analyzed and reanalyzed in an effort to see if he is missing something. Yes, the key logger may go back on the "confuser" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . But that part that you will have a hard time handling is the fact that your criticisms of him will hit him harder than you ever realize. I am not saying don't speak the truth, I am saying give the truth with kindness and grace.

I suspect your H rejoices that you are finally going to get the "monkey" off of your back. But he will also find it ironic that the act that seems to bring you much joy, has brought him such sorrow. But your joy and enthusiasm is a good thing right now.

I will offer you a statement once made by a lady who had been married 50 years. She was asked what the secret was to her long marriage to her H and her answer was: "We never fell out of love with the other at the same time."

Your enthusiasm will help Mr. G a lot, just as his devotion to you is keeping the marriage together right now. I hope your session with the Harley's goes well. I am sure it will be eye opening.

God Bless,

JL

I keep a picture of Mrs. G next to my computer. It's funny but I've never done that before. I think it's because I worry that I might lose her. I don't know.

Of course I read Mrs. G's most recent post. She is fighting hard to keep the guilt at bay. She wants both of us to be happy again. She fully realizes the gravity of what's happened but maybe not of what's happening. For that matter, I don't either. She became depressed last night as we reflected back on the things in her life that might have some link to what happened and why she made the choices she made. She cried and then she sobbed with questions of "Why, why, why?" She said that she hated me for being so smart and that she was so stupid. She said, "Everything comes so easy for you and its so hard for me." She said that she can't do anything right. "Why are you staying with me?" She is so convinced that one day I will open my eyes and be gone. She is fearful that I will teach myself to hate her. And then she begged me to stay, please don't go. "I love you", she said. Will I ever get tired of hearing those words? They sound so fresh and new. (ahh, young love, it's such a wonderful thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I don't know when Mrs. G will be back to this fourm as it is hard for her to gain feelings of comfort from the responses the same way I am able to. She knows that she is viewed as the "bad guy" of this mess and she feels that there is no absolution for her, at least not here, not yet.

I am bonded by history and love to Mrs. G and I cannot and do not want to change that. There is absolution and forgivness for her, all she need do is look in two places, in her own heart and in my eyes.

Mr. G

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Goodstuff ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mr. Goodstuff:

I don't know when Mrs. G will be back to this fourm as it is hard for her to gain feelings of comfort from the responses the same way I am able to. She knows that she is viewed as the "bad guy" of this mess and she feels that there is no absolution for her, at least not here, not yet.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can only speak for myself but anybody who had enough courage and remorse like Mrs G is hardly the "bad guy". I hope that one day she realizes what you already know and that she is a human being worthy of being loved. Remind her that she is also one smart cookie for nobody reaches the vice presidency of a company by being stupid.

TMCM,
I asked Mrs. G to read your post. She was visiably shaken (in a positive way). It seems strange that simple words can have the impact they do. Thanks from both of us.

We had our first session with Steve Harley. I must say that I feel so optimistic regarding our future.

Mr. G

So,
I mentioned that we had our first session with Steve Harley. I'm a bit unsure of how much I should discuss on this forum, but these days I only do the things that make me feel good and completely avoid the things that make me feel bad and hopefully not to the point that such behavior becomes destructive to me and Mrs. G.

Anyway, we were both given assignments to fill out the MB questionnaires, due in a couple of weeks. The questions are making for some interesting discussion between us as Mrs. G must search for answers that reveal the reasons why the A's happened and perhaps more importantly how she can guard against them happening again. Unfortunately for me, it appears that my salvation lies in her salvation, so I am indeed wishing her the best.

She has been bouncing potential reasons for the A's off of me all last night. She is extremely frustrated that she cannot center on the specifics. She surfaced a host of reasons that were all over the map. Of all of the reasons we both think she is on to something when she suggested what our marriage and she was missing, we lost communication, lost intimacy. Those were big needs for her. I created an environment that instilled fear in her to openly discuss these issues so she went someplace else to discuss them (we all know where) and ever so slowly she found the comfort where these needs became satisfied and she did not need to confront me to drive a resolution. She didn't know what was happening until it was too late. But more importantly, how does she protect this marriage in the future? What is to say that she won't find herself in a similar situation down the road, just being a friendly person? How am I to function day to day with such thoughts filling my mind? Is my life to be filled with nothing but jealous thoughts of every man that looks her way? When I'm with her, everything is fine, and when I'm not I am suffering miserably.

Mr. G

<small>[ November 20, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Goodstuff ]</small>

Good to hear your first session with Steve went will. Something I learned about the questionaires is how fast they change during recovery. My wife and I did these every month for about 9 months I believe and they were different every month.

Again it was great to hear you started your sessions with Steve.

Mrs. Goodstuff,
I have to commend you for becoming so honest with your husband. Honesty is what I long for from my H, even though he is not cheating now.

All he will admit to is a one-night-stand that I knew about because he passed on a curable STD to me, but it took him 13 years to finally admit it.

I believe that my H was a serial cheater, based on his actions at varying times through our 34 years of marriage. I can put names to at least 4 other women. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

It hurts so badly to feel that our whole marriage has been a lie. Two weeks ago, he slipped up and referred to a relationship that he had which ended when she got killed in an automobile accident. The problem is: She got killed 3 months after we were married. Now, I can accept and believe that there was no physical relationship with her after we married, but I feel that my H married me while carrying a torch for her. He insists that she was nothing but a "really good friend". Funny...if she was such a "really good friend", why did I never meet her while she was alive?

Anyway, enough about me...I just wanted to let you know that you did the right thing for your marriage by telling Mr. Goodstuff the truth. I am planning on ending my marriage as soon as I can work out the financial problems we face, but it's not because of the cheating, but because of the lies and verbal abuse connected with those lies. If my H were to become as honest and open as you appear to be, I'd be back into working on our marriage in a heartbeat.

Keep it up! I think you and Mr. Goodstuff are on the right track!
LC

<small>[ November 20, 2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Lady Clueless ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But more importantly, how does she protect this marriage in the future? What is to say that she won't find herself in a similar situation down the road, just being a friendly person? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are getting close to the crux of the matter here. Harley's materials SUGGEST (though he never directly says this, I think) that unmet emotional needs cause affairs. However, the truth is that it is how you deal with those unmet needs that can lead to an affair. Inapropriate boundaries in our relationships with the opposite sex are the only common denominator to ALL affairs. You can't have an affair if you don't cross boundaries that should not be crossed, and you cannot have an affair if you don't. If your wife is like mine (and I believe she is) there needs to be achange in what she views as acceptable behavior within the bounds of "just being a friendly person". I used to admire my wife for the way she could be emotionally open with people, without developing an inapproptriate attachment. Then we learned that she couldn't. She routinely crossed emotional boudaries that shoule not have been crossed. She had to change her behavior, and where she drew those lines.

A couple of books that are good at getting at those issues are: "Boundaries" and "Boundaries in Marriage", by Cloud and Townsend. Also, I have already mentioned "Torn Asunder", by Carder. It is very good at getting at the roots of an affair other than unmet emotional needs.

I’ve yet to even start my emotional needs questionnaire but Mrs. G has already completed a first draft of hers and, that’s right, you guessed it, she changed the ranking this morning and is questioning her new ranking this afternoon.

Lady Clueless, I hope that you find a way to communicate with your H before it is too late. Perhaps all he needs to understand is what is at stake?

I’m in a strange mood today. Unfortunately, I had to work, 7:00 to 3:00. My mind was filled with matters of work and I had no chance to reflect upon my current state. Mrs. G called me sometime around 1:00. I told her I couldn’t talk and that I would be home as soon as I could and I meant it. Of course, my drive home was filled with thoughts of only Mrs. G. I’m so tired with the endless replays of my mind that seem to poison our recovery. Don’t get me wrong, these rollercoaster’s of emotions are pointing upwards. But anyways, when I walked in the house she was all about all the things she had been thinking about, emotional needs and why she did this and why she did that. It’s great to hear her talking about them but something just wasn’t quite right and then it came. A letter arrived in the mail that connected indirectly with her last A. She told me that it caused her to feel that sick stomach feeling and she despaired a little bit, she missed him. So what did she do? She called me at work. She needed to talk to me! Dammit, I was too busy. She said just hearing my voice was enough but I can’t help but fret. Like I said, something just wasn’t right. Ever since this epic unfolded we have both taken on the Giver’s role but I fear that the Taker is waiting in the wings. And for now, that is our curse; that the Taker will rise up and feed upon our souls.

Mr G,

Please look at it from a different POV in that she is doing what she would not have done a short time ago, being an open book to you. Give her a hug, a kiss and thank her for being honest with you. She is sharing with you her deepest thoughts and feelings and that is because you created an emotional environment where she feels safe opening up to you. Many BS and WS would give their right arm to be where you and Mrs G are right now.

As far as the Taker is concerned, like everything in life its got its good side and its bad side. The good side of the Taker protects you from harm from others but its bad side doesn't give a hoot on how it achieves its purpose and whether or not others get harmed in the process. The same goes for the Giver in that its good side is concerned in protecting others from your destructive actions but its bad side is that it doesn't care if it sacrifices you to achieve this protection of others. Neither the Giver or the Taker should dominate, only the POJA [Policy Of Joint Agreement] should dominate. The POJA keeps the Giver and Taker in balance for both of you by not allowing the two of you to do ANYTHING unless it meets the enthusiastic approval of BOTH of you. Neither of you sacrifice anything when you POJA successfully.

Mr. and Mrs. G,

First Mrs G, the Coffeeman expressed what most of actually think in these situations. At this point it is not about you being the bad person, but the person who strayed. You don't see the difference do you? Good people make bad decisions and what is the telling tale is how they respond. You and your H came here for help, it was hard for him to open up to strangers, but we all know it is even harder for you to open up. You have noticed how many have posted and wished that you were their spouse. Do you know why? Because what you have done with the disclosure and the work is admired.

I know you don't feel it but you are clearly loved by your H, and you are admired here for your willingness to work on your marriage.

Mr. G, Harley points out the unmet needs to NOT lead to affairs. Many BS's don't have their needs met and they don't have affairs. Unmet needs do set up unsatisfactory conditions in the marriage, but the WS must still decide to have the affair so they get full credit for this choice.

The issue of the giver and taker is critical and I am sure Steve Harley will get into this. But, with "radical honesty" you should tell your W that to function properly at work you do need to focus and while you are so happy she did call she needs to understand that as much as you can talk with her you will, but work must be done.

This is part of the balance of a marriage. She needs to realize that sometimes what seems like a rejection is NOT a rejection. Further, if she had mentioned to you that this was an emergency with respect to her feeling you would then prioritized things differently.

Here is something that you both need to really really need to realize; Both of you are lousy mindreaders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You really are.

As someone mentioned in the years I have been here it seems that the needs do change. Let's face it if a couple is very active sexually it is unlikely they will list Sexual satisfaction as their number one need. You will see as you meet her needs that they will change. She will see the same with you.

This seems pretty normal to me, what about you guys?

As to the reasons for the A's, well I think she will be all over the map about this for quite awhile. She is going to have to sort feelings from reasons. She is going to have to sort excuses from reality. She is going to have to sort justifications from reasons.

This all takes time and healing. Both of you give this plenty of time and have patience with each other. You are looking at years for a complete healing so don't try and rush this. Settle down and go step by step. You will make it through this.

God Bless,

JL