I just found this website last week, and have been reading as many discussions as possible, but I'm still feel uneasy about a situation.

W and I have been friends with a couple in our n'hood, kids play together all the time, etc. Lately my W and H of other couple have been talking more and more, but my W and W of other couple have been talking less and less. Had two occasions where H came to my house when his W was out of town to have dinner, went to the movies one night. (I work night shift) Granted, their kids and mine were present during these times, but still doesn't seem right, especially since the other couple is having marital problems.

I've asked her to put herself in my shoes and look at it from my perspective, but she gets agitated when I bring it up, saying I'm accusing her of running around and that there is nothing going on. My W is very caring and easy to talk to, so I know other people turn to her with their problems, but I've read enough on this website to see that's how things get started. I even talked to the OM after the second "dinner" and he apologized, saying it "must have looked bad".

W and I have three kids, married almost 14 years (with one prior separation) but I just don't know if making too much out of this or how I should proceed if this continues.

Talk to the OM AND his wife.

Gw,
For now assume that nothing is truely going on. Assume that your wife thinks she's helping him with his marriage issues. Don't get angry with her bc it'll just drive her underground.

Having said that discusssing marital issues with someone from the opposite sex is very dangerous. It'll start out innocently, but as the conversations continue the intimacy developes. He'll start to meet her need for conversation.

As he discusses his situation she'll start to feel closer and closer. She may start to make comparisons in her mind.

You can't demand that she not see him. It'll just backfire.

Read up on the emotional needs questionaire ans make sure you are meeting all of her needs. Do you know what her top 5 are?

Don't educate her about how she is potentially heading towards an EA. You can buy the book "Not Just Friends" by Glass. It is very good. It has a very specific definition of an EA.

You can tell her that her relationship with the friend makes you feel uncomfortable. Agree with her that he needs marital advice but suggest that it's best if it comes from a professional MC.

Does she know that you come this site?

If you find out that she's gone "secret" on you, this is a major red flag. Ask her if they've met on other occassions.

I agree that you should raise thge concerns with OM and his wife. Start with her. Share the EA definition from NJF. Suggest MC ASAP!!! OM may apologize but who knows what motives he has.

If he is having marital problems then a relationship with your wife if even just an emotional one, will feel good. It'll releive some of the stress from the home front. It'll feed his ego.

Get NJF and read it ASAP and read up on the emotional needs here at MB. Avoid LB's.

Take care,

Mac

GW

its hard to say if 'anything' is going on but it would seem imprudent of your wife to invite him over when you are not there especially in light of his maritial issues.

What is her intentions now that you have told her you are not comfortable with this? Has she agreed not to see him without you there?

I think that would be the red flag in something like this. IF she saw him regardless of your feelings or in secrecy, then you have problems.

Now to be proactive GW, what about making sure you are meeting all her EN's - Emotional Needs -do you know what they are?
You can read about them here on this site and if you don't know sit down with your wife and fill out a questionnaire each which is also here.
This helps to 'affair proof' your M.

Another very good proactive thing to do is called POJA - Policy of Joint Agreement - this where YOU & your wife MUST both agree on doing something before either one does it. You can extend this to even everyday mundane things like who will cook dinner, etc.
You'll be surprised how many of these little things really annoy your spouse. I bet there are little things which annoy you even after all the years right? Some of course you live with but perhaps you should not with some.

I think the thing here is to make sure both parties are aware of your feelings in this matter and that you politely and gently but firmly state your objections to this.
Remember, affairs which can hurt & destroy M need not be physical, emotional affairs sometimes can be MUCH worse strange enough.

I would also explain to your wife "Ok, how would you like to see me having a meal break on my night shift or a meal right after work with a young female co-worker, without you, taking her to movies afterwards and then telling you that you have nothing to worry about do you think I am running around cheating on you?"

I know what I would say.

GW a careful eye on this situation won't hurt but don't get panicky yet. See what her actions are in adddition to what she says to you and go from there.
Actions speak louder than words in a situation like this.

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the advice. I'm new to the site, but I'm finding more and more info as I go. I'll look into the EN survey and the POJA as well.
I'm trying not to make too much out of it, but when I did some initial investigating my concerns grew a little. (password to view cell phone bill on-line has been changed, recieved/dailed numbers from cell phone deleted after the last weekend his W was out of town) My main concern is that he doesn't need to be discussing his marital problems with my W, and doesn't need to be there at my house when I'm not there. They both know how I feel about him being there when I'm not there, but I'll just keep an eye on things to see what happens.
Again, I would feel better if my W didn't get so hostile when I bring the issue up, but it looks like I may be approaching it the wrong way!

Thanks again! I'll check in later tonight when I come back to work.

Hello,

You are not overreacting at all. These are classic signs of a cheating spouse. It is absolutely unacceptable for your wife to be having lunches with this man and especially allowing him to be over your house when you are at work. It is very suspicious that she has changed her passwords now. Lets be honest here. Do you think your wife would be accepting such behavior from you if the roles were reversed? I guarantee you she would not be so accepting of such behavior. It sounds like she is upset when you discuss this because she knows she is wrong.
I think you need to discuss this with the OM's wife as soon as possible. Again these are classic signs of a cheating spouse. Keep checking closely. I wish you luck.

GW- I agree you should not overreact. What happens is that your W will pull away and get more of her needs met from the other person. You have to keep her close and love her more, now more than ever. I know, my W did the same thing as yours. When I first became suspicious, I overreacted (by reacting in a way without fully understanding what was going on)and pushed her away and more towards him. They discussed his marital problems, etc. They had what I believed was an EA. To this day, she denies it was anything but a friendship. I am now learning that it may have been physical. I have learned that because there is so much deception involved you have to carefully look at the situation before coming to conclusions or taking action. Just my thoughts.

GW,
You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, I would feel better if my W didn't get so hostile when I bring the issue up, but it looks like I may be approaching it the wrong way!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's look at this statement. IF you are approaching your wife in a calm manner and just describing to her your feelings about these "meetings" and she is getting hostile then something is up. That's a major red flag.

Now, if you are approaching her in a judgemental, angry and/or hostilemanner, then she may just be being defensive to your approach.

Based upon your few posts I do see some red flags. The best approach is to stay calm and don't get angry. If she gets angry don't let her draw you into a fight. Cheating spouses (and IMHO wives especially) create arguments to help them rationalize their behavior. If the suspicious spouse overreacts then it just makes it sooo much easier to rationalize.

Always stay calm.

Has she told you what they talk about? It seems his marriage troubles but what specifically has she shared with you.

She's now on guard whether she's innocent or cheating so you need to proceed with caution or else as I've said you'll just drive her underground.

If you bring up the situation, try to be as subtle as you can. Ask a question only when there is a reason. I only asked questions when my wife brought up her other friends and their marriage troubles. I asked her questions on those people and then turned it to OM and his wife.

Ask her if you can what his prospective is on their marriage. It may give you some clues as to what his needs are. Also think back to how she has described in the past. Did she ever say she thought he was charming, attractive etc?

What type of person is his wife? Can you enlist her help surriptiously or will she go ballistic if you raise your concerns? If she becomes your ally in this be VERY CAREFUL that the two of you don't become entangled. It's very easy especially if you do discover an EA and/or a PA.

How long have you noticed your wife's closeness with this guy? 1 month, 3 months ???

Try to have fun conversations with your wife. If in her mind the only conversations with you are related to your concerns it'll just push her further away.

It sounds as though the OM and your wife only have the oppurtunity to get together at night. Put a recording device on your phone line. Hide it onConnect it to an old jack that is hidden by a bed or another piece of furniture. You may catch her calling him to tell him that you've left for work.

Cell phone bills will tell a large portion of the story. It was my first concrete clue of trouble. Does she pay her own bills? Is it a work phone?

Try and give us some more background.


Mac

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

i just lost my best friend to this very same thing---my ww and myself where great friends--even to the point they did things without me---it turned into A i caught them on 10-31-04 kissing in my house 3 long days latter got the truth of the A---i for one will never put my w in that position again---no man or women should be alone with the op sex @##$@$ happens--if your wife loves you ,let her read my story---she will understand

Thanks for the responses/advice so far.

BryanP- I discussed the situation with his W after the second time he was at my house, and she was unconcerned, saying that my W is just easy to talk to. She said maybe she was just dumb or naive', but she didn't think anything could be going on.

cwmac- With the exception of the second time I discovered him at my house, I have remained calm whenever the subject is brought up.
From what my W tells me, the OM has said he thinks his W might be having an A with the doctor she works for, and how she treats him like cr@p, yells at him, doesn't respect him, etc.
My W hasn't mentioned anything about being attracted to him, just that they are good friends.
My wife usually keeps up with the bills, she'll ask for my input when needed.

I guess my biggest concern is, when do you just chalk it up to a friendship and nothing more, or should you always question something like this when it envolves a member of the opposite sex? I'm just confused and concerned.

Maybe there is something already going on, maybe not. Sure could develop though!

I would simply advise being on guard at all times and assume that the risk is always there. You need to make sure that you are meeting all of her needs (please read HNHN) now and forever. In my case (check my posts) it was over 20 years before my FWW had an A with my best friend. Things just developed between them slowly and laid in waiting until we had a few difficulties within our marriage. He was a predator who took advantage of my FWW's vulnerability, who, at the time, was equally ready to accept the affection,conversation and support from him that she felt at the time she wasnt getting from me. How well do you really know this man? How strong is your marriage?
Obviously I am tainted by so called friendships, so I have the opinion that a casual liaison is fine (with you present) , but I would be very cautious about them spending any personal "alone" time together.

Sorry to be bleak about this - I'm sure your W loves you (as I think mine did) but as can be testified on this site - this is all too common and the dangers ever present. Talk to her as much as you can right now but as others have posted - be careful not to drive her to him by laying down demands. I hope all goes well.

GW,
Goodbloke has asked some good questions. Hoe good is your relationship? What does your wife resentabout you? That may give you some insight.

Marriage Builders is a site that belives that there really isn't alot of room for friends of the opposite (or of the same sex for that matter) that come between a married couple.

Look at it this way. Your wife says that she is "just really good friends" with him. OK take that at face value for now, but how does that make you feel.

If they are just good friends they have a level of intimacy that is being taken from the intimacy that could exist in your relationship with your wife.

WARNING: Most women do not go looking for affairs. (Men are a bit different) They develope slowly.

Why do women usually pick married men with whom they can have a friendship? They think married men are safe. They wouldn't necessarily pick a single man bc "he's after somnething."

So it starts as a friendship. The woman starts feeling closer and closer based upon the conversations that they are having.

Does your wife feel really fulfilled with her life? If, not she's at risk. Is she a stay at home mom who gets little recognition?

Add fuel to the fire when one or both of the "friends" start discussing marriage issues. It opens up an even closer level of intimacy. Your sharing your hopes and desires for a better relationship.

It also gives the man ammunition for how to better meet her needs.

Eg, your wife mentions to him that you are a bit of a workoholic and you are a little removed from your kids. Whether consciously or otherwisw, he'll start to show her what a "superdad" he is.

Go to the Emotional Needs questionaire TODAY and try to figure out your wifes top 5 needs. Then figure out which ones you are meeting and which ones he may be meeting. Do a better job at meeting those needs.

I wish you all the best.

I hope that you have discovered this in time.


Mac

Goodbloke/Mac- My W and I have had our problems in the past, with one prior separation, but I feel like the last 6 years have been much better. I love my W now more than I ever have, which I guess is why I get concerned about the OM. Here lately she says she resents the fact that I don't trust her, and that I'm accusing her of running around. I have repeatedly told her that I do trust her, but I'm just not comfortable with how much time they seem to talk, etc. How does that make me feel when they say that they are just good friends? Still not very reassured.

Mac- You asked if my wife feels fulfilled. I would say no, so much that I can't say if she's ever felt fulfilled. Over a month ago, she even made the comment that she has always felt stuck with me. We had sex before marriage and then had children early on, so she said that she's always felt trapped or stuck with me.
My W now works per deim at her old employer because I work two jobs, trying to give her what she says she's always wanted, to be a stay at home mom. Today she told me I needed to go see a Dr or a counselor b/c of this "anxiety", I must be overworked/tried, etc. I'm thinking that might be a good idea.

GW,
I don't know the percentages but I know that alot of WS are from marriages where they have only had one partner.

Has your been depressed lately? Change in sleeping and eating habits are signs.

I believe most people who get involved in affairs are usually in some form of depression. The fix of the affair relieves the depression if only temporarily.

Has any other behavior changed lately?

-more concerned with looks
-working out more/concerned about weight
-sexy underwear
-less interest in sex (some will say more interest in sex but I think that this mainly applies to men. I think women's interest in the spouse declines)
-more computer use
-more cell phone use
there are numerous more but these are the basics

Go see a counselor. Talk to him/her.

Have you always been jealous of your wife's friends? If this is standard behavior for you it's one thing but if not then you need to go with your gut feeling here.

If she were having an affair with this guy how and when would they communicate? If you work laye nights she may call him from the house.Does she e-mail/chat alot?

The best thing to do right now is to back off if you can untilyou have irrefutible truth. If she's not having an affair, you will drive her nuts and seem weak. If she's guilty, she'll go further underground.

Figure out a way to test her to see if your right or wrong.

Mac

PS How young are your kids? Would they even know if anything was going on with neighbor while Daddy's at work?

Well, after two more incidents this past weekend (one with him being at my house with me not there and one with my W at his house while his wife was gone), I finally wrote down my thoughts/concerns and gave her the "letter". I reinforced the fact that I love her and trust her, but just asked for respect and some boundaries about him not being there when I'm at work (and same for her going down there). She said she was offended because I keep implying that I don't trust her or her judgement, and that she wasn't going to say anything to him about my wishes, and that I "better not either". I tried to remain calm through all of it, but I eventually did a no-no and lost my cool. Things got pretty heated.

I just can't understand why she can't or won't look at it from my perspective. I know if the roles were reversed, she would be extremely p.o.'d. I really am trying to just lay low and stay calm, but I can't stop thinking that things have happened or will happen between them. Is there really a way to just "let it go and see what happens"???

GW,
I have a question. That question is, "When does an affair become an affair?"

I will give you the answer. It is with the first meeting.

She has changed her passwords, cleaned her phone is defensive regarding behavior that is inappropriate.

From your most recent comments it appears also that you have other underlying issues in your marriage.

The signs are there. The new question is what do you do about it?

It sounds like she is allowing the OM to fill her unmet emotional needs and that is not your fault. She gets full credit for allowing herself that exposure. Do a little investigating to try and find out those things that are important to her. Once you do you can begin to talk to her about those things. If things have not progressed too far with the OM you may find that she is willing to talk to you and that will give you an opportunity to address the things that are important to her.

I agree with some of the other posters that marriage C. should be looked at. In the meantime try to keep open dialogue with her and not let any LB cause withdraws to your love bank which sounds like it may be low on funds.

I wish you the best,
Mr. G

Hello,

It is a very bad sign that your wife continues to disrespect you and refuses to abide by any boundaries. Having this guy in your home when you are at work and her with him at his home when his wife is away is totally acceptable. In addition, the fact that she threatened you not to say anything to him is a huge red flag. Everything in this post and your previous posts indicate an affair.
Since telling his wife made no difference; I would confront him and tell him to knock it off or there will be consequences. The attitude of your wife is that she fears absolutely no consequences from you for her very inappropriate behavior. The fact that she continues to do this after you have talked to her about this is very bad. The bottom line is "no consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change." I have a hunch it has already progressed into a physical affair. The question is what would or will you do about it if this is true? I wish you luck.

Hey Bud... sorry to see you in the situation. My words may seem harsh right now but you need to toughen up in this type of situation.

Do not live in denial. Shed light on this situation and do not be afraid of it's ugly head.

For starters you need to treat this as it is... cheating. Cheating because this is not acceptable to you. Right now you are living in a condition that you do not like. These next coupls of days are going to test your self worth as a human being. Look in the mirror and acknowledge that "you" cannot let "yourself" down.

Sit back and put some thought into what you did to let this happen. Did you meet her top 5 needs?

Once you understand what your contributions are to this issue then take a look at her contributions to you. Is she meeting your top 5 needs?

Take a look at your marriage? If you want to save it than plan a course for action.

Action Plan:
1) Tell her right out that your sorry that your marriage is not healthy right now. Tell her it's not healthy because for "whatever" reason you did not meet her top 5 needs and that you respect her and plan on saving this marriage. Spend some time getting the top 5 needs for both. You W will laugh and say it's not bad and so on.. but obviously it is and tell her why it's not healthy.

2) Tell her you cannot accept her behaviour and that it will be impossible for you to commit to saving this marriage while she entertains the OM. This will shed light on an obvious situation with your marriage. Talking about it can only get to a final resolution. Not talking at all will keep her on track to OM.

3) Tell the OM to reason with your situation. OM marriage is on the rocks and he is stealing your W. Tell him to be a "man" and take is sobbing [censored] story to a marriage counselor and leave your W out of this. Call it for what it is.. he is not respecting your marriage and he must understand that you know do not tolerate his actions. Also tell him that your going to stop/not approve your W from interacting with him and if he has honor as a human being he will not let your W to run into his arms.

4) Be prepared for your W to freak out and act cRaZy. That's what happens when they realize you are stopping them from doing what they think is right.

5) No matter how hard it is you need to be in complete control of your emotions. You need to act strong, confident, and stay in control. Make her see you the way she did when you first met. I am sure when you first met your W you acted cool and you were in control. The last thing your W will want is a sobbing cry baby pleading for her to stay (unless that how you get her in the 1st place .. hehehe j/k).

Good luck buddy and always remember "It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees!"