When my ex has the kids, which is very little, he hardly has anything to say to them. I think if I saw them as little as he did, I would be overflowing with questions about their lives. Not only does he have little to say, I've been the one to try to help them thru the divorce, all he ever told them was that he and I didn't get along, which they know is not true. Why is he withdrawing from them?<P>AD

It is really spooky reading your posts - they are so similar to what is happening in our situation. Did your H talk to the kids a lot before the affair? I don't recall it being a problem until my H became depressed within the last few years. In the months preceeding the affair, he sometimes seemed to be actively avoiding talking to the kids, though he was still willing to drive them anywhere they wanted to go. When he first left, he paid the kids a fair amount of attention. I would come home and invariably one of the little ones would be on his lap. As soon as he filed, I would come home and he would be sitting at the computer instead. This has gotten worse and worse over the past few months - now apparently he doesn't pay them a lot of attention at the OW's house - I think she spends more time with the little ones than he does.<P>My H used those exact words to the kids - that we "didn't get along", which doesn't make sense to them either. <P>I think that it is the guilt that causes them to withdraw - if they talk to them about what is going on in their lives, they feel too guilty about not being there.<BR>

He was with the kids so much before the affair, we were a close family and both talked to the kids about their daily lives, there was a lot of interaction at our house, not everyone going in different directions. Now he only talks to them about trivial things, nothing about what is going on in their lives. He didn't even ask them what they did on Christmas day.<P>AD

AD,<BR>That is one of the many things I can not understand about my H and the OW - family was terribly important to him, we homeschooled, we did a lot as a family - definitely did not go our separate ways - yet the OW's family does exactly that - from what my kids have mentioned, her older kids are rarely around, they don't seem to interact much with each other. I don't understand how my H could stand living in an environment like that.

BINGO,<BR>Mine too. How eerie. H didn't have a lot of interaction with girls before leaving but there was still something. After he left....he didn't call or come by for over 10 days. Now when he calls girls, it is once a week. If they are not home, he doesn't try until 2 more weeks (since he takes them every other weekend) When he calls them I tape alot of the calls because he is very abusive with them. But the most part of his conversation is sometimes really funny in a sad sort of way. He will talk about a commercial he is watching or about his cable going out or about doing laundry. Never asks them about school or friends or any activities except about maybe what I have done. Or is your mom working or does mom know you are talking like this to me. It is usually something to do with me. He shows not one iota of interest in them. He probably couldn't even tell you any of their favorites.....like...foods, colors, school subjects, toys etc. The conversations last about 3 minutes total to both children....,then he says well I'll let you go, the game is back on, or I need to go something. What is with them? And now he wants custody? Yuk.....What a crock<BR>Nancy

Mental,<P>You hit another one with me. My ex calls the kids more than that, but only if he happens to be home. Weekends when he doesn't have them and he is with her, he doesn't call at all. Conversations last about three minutes and they mostly breathe at each other. He won't mention me at all to them. The strange thing is, even though we are divorced, the kids have only met OW once and not for long and his parents haven't met her at all. It's like he's still ashamed of the whole thing.<P>AD

I think it's guilt. If they tell the kids exactly why they left, then they'll have to own up to it. My H only left 5 days ago, and hasn't really told the kids anything. Just that we "weren't getting along" (Did these people get together and come up with that excuse??) And it was really awkward when he came to see them over the weekend. But he came Fri., Sat., and Sun. I just hope he keeps the interest and doesn't just desert them.

OK, I can't help but add my two cents on this one.<P>I was re-reading Torn Asunder last night and hit on something new. One of the coping mechanisms used is called "suppression". The suppressor basically shuts down all emotion as a way of escaping the pain. It's kind of an all or nothing deal. They can't deal with feeling AT ALL since it's too painful, so they turn everything off. This is a variation on the guilt theme, but really more pre-emptive. Dave Carder, the author, said the only way to deal with this situation is through an intervention.<P>Sounds like all of this subset of guys has this problem. It's the only thing that makes sense to me about why they would avoid the kids. It's too painful for them to interact with them.<P>I may get kicked off the forum for this, but I think we may need to come up with a different way to deal with people that are this emotionally disfunctional. It doesn't seem that any of the cases I've tracked in my year on this forum that looked liked mine (emotionally dead spouse who will not communicate honestly under any circumstances, has no compassion for the betrayed and has ditched the kids, all of which is a radical change) have been turned around. If all our spouses are doing is avoiding, and we Plan A them or Plan B them, we just make it easy for them to continue to avoid.<P>Since I'm down to my last nickel, I'm thinking of starting respectful "direct frontal attacks" as my last hurrah. What do you think? I think we should all start to brainstorm about other approaches we could use to get them to feel SOMETHING. Also, can anyone think of any situations like this that have been turned around? If so, I think we should try to find the couple so we can learn from them.

Distressed,<P>Don't you think all the symptoms they are having (emotionally dead, no compassion, ditching the kids) are directly related to the affair? In "Private Lies" Pittman say the infidel would like to press a button and make the old life go away and the new one appear. I think the whole thing is about avoidance, and won't change unless the affair ends. I know a couple this happened to, they got divorced, and it wasn't until the affair ended that he showed any compassion for her at all. It has been several years since their divorce and he apologizes to her all the time. He also stays drunk all the time. I have heard of several stories where the betrayer was cruel and cold for a long time, then changed their tune when they hit reality.<P>AD

Distressed,<BR>Right after my H left, he was sometimes willing to talk to me, and he still showed emotion sometimes - even to the point of crying. He said that he was afraid he had messed up his life so badly that it could never be fixed. As soon as the affair was discovered and he filed for divorce the next day, that all changed. He rarely is willing to talk at all, and quickly gets angry and hangs up on me if the conversation gets uncomfortable.<P>I wonder if the "direct frontal attack" would work with someone who is still so prone to anger, or if it would backfire. <P>

Already Divorced:<P>I don't fully know whether it's directly related to the affair, although the affair is a very major component that prolongs recovery. I noticed severe withdrawal in my husband before the affair began. I also noticed a lack of interest in all areas of life, except work, that he used to enjoy.<P>I also have great difficulty seeing how the affair prevents the infidel from having a relationship with his children, or why after disclosure they feel the continued need to lie and evade. It's not logical, but then again, little that they're doing is.<P>I've always thought, like you, that the affair dictates what the infidel does, not our behavior. But after 16 months of separation and a few withdrawn/dead feelings months before that, I don't see the emergence of feelings in my infidel in any direction. I can't see him ending the affair or divorcing me, nor can I see him seeking help to bring himself out of this funk. I also see him somewhat unhappy, but mostly inert. He's easily gained 50 pounds during the last nine months, from a lean starting point. Hasn't taken a single vacation.<P>A friend told me a story about his father. The man was married to a dominant wife (similar to many of our situations) and basically ran away from the situation, including two teenage children. He moved across the country and never had to see any of them. And didn't. When my friend turned 35, he tracked him down. Twenty years had passed. He asked his father why he abandoned them. His father said "you kids never respected me". It's extraordinary how long someone can live in denial when they're not interacting with those that are impacted.<P>And that's my point. Would my friend's father have been able to live in this irresponsible denial if he had to interact with friends and family periodically? If he felt their hurt and pain? And if he was ever confronted with alternate points of view and disconfirming evidence?<P>When we Plan A and Plan B them, do we allow them to continue to avoid facing the ramifications of what they've done - seeing the damage and other people's pain? To a certain extent, we're dishonest with them. We act like nothing is bothering us and we love them when we're either furious or extremely hurt. After doing this so long, I'm really questioning whether it's the right think with a suppressor.<P>In this re-read of Torn Asunder, I noticed how radically different it is from Harley. Carder says the betrayer must see and feel the pain and hurt of the betrayed and the family. We do everything to shield betrayers from this. He also said there's nothing beneficial about extending affairs and we betrayed should take a stand on it and force the choice, assuming we're prepared to deal with the consequences. I think for many of us, the choice has been made and it's the OP, in some cases by default (not making a decision). We just are unwilling to accept that outcome.<P>I don't know, I'm more confused now than ever. I'm probably looking for answers where there are none.

Okay,<BR>I have tried the nice stuff. The plan A. Even though I never knew about this forum. My H told me I was too nice and that it was fake. I have tried the Plan B. Left him alone. Of course again, I didn't know about plan B but I think I pretty much did that. Still no responce. The girls have even unknowingly tried these plans....nothing works. At first I thought they were. He would call, reminise, cry sometimes, get choked up sometimes. But one thing I noticed is that whenever he would start to become emotional or start to feel bad he would hang up. After I started to realize this I would suggest that we get off the phone just so that I didn't have to listen to the dial tone in mid sentence. That didn't work either. I believe that there is so much anger and guilt within them that they avoid any situation that would cause those feeling to surface. In short, they don't want to feel bad. My H believes that it is my fault. Everything is my fault. I just found out in my custody evaluation yesterday what my H feels. Told her he hasn't loved me in years. That I never did anything for him but caused grief. That for at least 6 years that I would snap very often and have angry outbursts where I would scream, rant, rave and become abusive. Never knew that. Are we talking about him or me here. He also felt that about 2 years ago that "I" abandoned the family. Because one night a week I would go play bingo. Also stated that sometimes I would go with friends and leave him with the girls. I guess I wasn't entitled to have a life outside of my marriage. Do I believe any of this to be true? NO!!!!! Again it is just their way of justifying why they had an affair. Of course, I would think that if I had angry outburst for 6 years, I would have been notified of it alot sooner. I just hope that the Dr. is as smart as me. LOL Okay, where is this going? I guess I am saying that they somehow realize after meeting someone else that they weren't happy. They never informed us of it. Here we are trying to save our marriages and for some reason my H couldn't tell me there were problems. That is because there weren't any that would cause a D. This is just their way of validating all of this. Seeing the children makes them realize that maybe it wasn't so bad. Seeing the children sad or confused just hurts them and brings back to much pain and proves to them how much they have hurt so many innocent people. Although my H does see them and does try to communicate with them there isn't any interest there. I think if he had real conversations with them or tries to get involved with them that it would bring back the guilt. If that guilt and pain comes back then they would have to admit they were wrong. And stupid! Who knows, maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so<BR>Nancy

Distressed:<P>Carder's approach was one of the reasons I disagreed with several others on the value of the book WHILE an affair is actively ongoing.<P>It's the same old stuff. Make a stand, demand a choice. It's not an effective solution to marital reconciliation.<P>You're dealing with a conflict avoider---and you've dealt with Plan A and Plan B, and it hasn't saved your marriage. I seriously doubt that getting in your husband's face with some heavy conflict would do anything but drive him further into depression. Interventions (as Carder suggests) are extremely tricky and only rarely successful.<P>I understand your frustration with your husband. Do you really believe that he's shielded from the hurt that you've gone through over the last couple of years---that's not a goal of Plan A or Plan B. If you haven't been honest with your husband about your feelings, then you need to do so. The only contraints in the "Harley-esque" plan would be to deliver those honest feelings without LB---you can be hurt, angry, disgusted, and appalled--just don't use lovebusters to get those points across.<P>Easier said than done. But if you're going for a frontal assult in one last-ditch effort, that'd be the direction that I'd take it.

K:<P>I've shielded my husband from having to deal with responsibilities, guilt, shame and pain, since all are lovebusters. I have made being with me and our home a great place to be. I haven't had OR talks with him, except for 3 times during the 16 month separation, all by prior appointment with at least two weeks notice. In each of those, he tried initially to avoid, and then wept dramatically and uncontrollably during the conversations. Harley has advised me to avoid bringing these things up to him until he's ready to talk about them. He never is.<P>I've never said a word to him about his non-relationship with our daughter, even when he went five consecutive months without seeing her a single time.<P>As you describe, my "direct frontal assault" will be respectfully delivered without demands. But I don't feel I can continue to be tight lipped about what he's done here, especially as I'm on the verge of serving him with papers. I project him carrying this same demeanor straight into the divorce, which will then leave me running that activity on my own. He will then be out of our collective lives, probably forever.<P>I do believe he has tried his best to avoid the pain himself. He has buried himself in work to avoid spending any time thinking. When he's not working, it seems he's always running off to the OW. During the three conversations I've had with him, there is absolutely NO DEPTH to his thinking. Obvious alternatives have not been identified, never mind considered. I've stated that I don't think he's spent 15 minutes during this separation trying to figure out what to do, and it's only modest hyperbole. He is a highly educated executive, so it's certainly not that he's incapable of thinking through things.<P>Your comments to me, as always, are right on the mark. As I approach him directly, it will be done with an "I feel" approach. It will also be done with as much compassion as I can muster. But I will communicate how I feel about the evasive and dishonest communication, the lack of information about the problems in the marriage and failure to give me an opportunity to fix things, the lack of effort invested to make and implement a decision, and the abandonment of our child. I probably won't even mention the infidelity - to be honest, the other problems are much more damaging. It will also ask him directly to be the kind of father that he was in the past, for the sake of our children. For several reasons, I'm going to do this in writing. It is my last stab at it. If he doesn't respond, which would be the pattern, I will be done.<P>I thank you again for your comments. I don't know what I would do without you and this forum.

{{{{{{{Distressed}}}}}}}<P>I wish I had an answer that would fix this.

I do believe that Plan A, and Plan B even more so, shield them from the hurt the betrayed feels. My H is capable of completely turning off his emotions. That has always been his way of dealing with things, and he excels at it. In the past, when I have said that I was worried about something, he would say, "Well, just don't think about it"," - as if it were as easy to do as say, which apparently it is for him. It may be how he dealt with the fact that his parents paid him little attention and clearly favored his brother - he has in the past gone at least six months without communicating with his parents or they with him - for no specific reason. <P>When the therapist suggested that he call the children every day, he said, "They can email me any time they want" - the therapist looked horrified, but he just doesn't get it - apparently he has no clue that children want and need more from their parents than he received from his father. <P>One of the few times I have seen any emotion from him lately was when our little one was crying desparately after he brought her home, and she told me she wanted to hug Daddy. I knew he was in a hurry to leave, but I handed her to him and said, almost crying myself, "You have to hug her" - somewhat to my surprise he said to her, "Of course I'll hug you - I love you" - and he actually sounded like he meant it. <P>I worry that he could quite conceivably manage to bury all emotion forever, if nothing forces him to confront them.

I still think avoidance is part of the affair, a way to avoid reality. I have spoken to many people who have been in this situation before, and they all say that this avoidance is part of the way the betrayer deals with it. It doesn't last. But while they are still in the fantasy of the affair, even though they feel guilty, nothing will get thru to them. My counselor told me to stop trying to get thru to my husband, it wouldn't do any good. She said it was like when a woman has an abortion, at first they feel relief that everything is out in the open and not until later does the pain and guilt set in. <P>Nellie, <BR>I think we were married to the same man, my ex never worried about anything either. I still think something this big has to catch up with them sooner or later. My ex didn't show any depression or withdrawal from his family until his affair began.<P>AD