Hi, dMac...<P> Well, I have read your post to me over and over again along with the responses of the others to my other post. I am trying hard to effect a complete change in my attitude towards my situation and in large part it's working.<P> I agree with what you said about "shades of grey" and needing models. I have always felt that way. I do try to apply models to look for a fit that can help to explain or predict any situation. Rarely does this actually happen, because, as you say, that one quirk that doesn't apply can invalidate the whole model.<P> You said you've been through those "classic" behaviors of infidelity. What did you feel like during that time? Were you clear-headed enough to question yourself or did you just charge head-long?<P> I had restricted Susan without really realizing it. Not only did she not go out with others without me tagging along, she rarely went anywhere with me! We will/would have been married 11 years on January 7 and we have <B>never</B> been on any kind of vacation or getaway alone. All of our trips have been to visit one set of family or the other. I had tried so hard to get her to go to Europe, the Caribbean, Hawaii and so on. There were always the excuses.<P> Now that all of this had happened, she blamed me for not wanting to go anywhere. She specifically mentioned last summer, saying we didn't do a thing. Well, the blame game came to a halt on that one when I pointed out how many times I had arranged for us to do something on a weekend and she would either indicate she wasn't interested or cancel at the last minute. Later, her tact was to say that she didn't like going places with me because I always got angry with her(on every trip) and wouldn't tell her why. We discussed that and I got her to admit that the only times we had problems between us when we traveled was when we stayed with her mother(who really doesn't like me).<P> As far as her going out with other people alone, I have gone as far as begging her to do this and not just recently, but over a number of years. She always had some kind of excuse not to...too much trouble, can't be bothered(one of her favorite lines), don't want to do this on a weeknight, etc. That's what frustrates me. I did have some negative feelings about her going out. I knew that I would feel bad if she was doing things with other people, but continued <B>not</B> going places or doing things with me. But we never even got to a point of seeing what my reactions might have been. All we have are Susan's assumptions.<P> In reading thru your 3 points of profound insight, I had some questions:<P>Point 1 -- In stating that she might recreate the situation with someone else, what situation were you referring to.<P>Point 2 -- She may be testing me, but I have responded by trying to pull her back as gently as I can. What did your OW mean when she said she wanted her H to "step in and take control"?<P>Point 3 -- I don't believe she ever will "hate" any freedom she gets. My concern is that she will rationalize that she only got that freedom by moving out and won't be willing to come back. I am afraid that she will also rationalize that since she didn't have it while with me, that I was definitely the cause. If one does rationalize this way, what would make them decide to come back? Other than the fact that I am an individual unique in some ways to someone else, what would keep her from thinking that someone else(OM for example), could give her everything I could without the baggage?<P> You have hit the nail on the head when you talked about rebelling. Susan is a classic "passive" rebel. She normally rebels by doing nothing, digging in her heels, not actively fighting for one cause or another. This may be why she wanted to move out with no restrictions, but not dissolve the marriage(I don't know if she still feels this way).<P> Your description of what marriage <B>is</B> is an almost perfect match for my feelings on the subject. Two individuals joining together to produce three aspects: each as an independent entity and the union of the two people in an entity that surpasses either individually.<P> What "trick" were you referring to when you said to "play this with every trick and subtlety you can"?<P> In your opinion, with what you know of my situation, wouldn't some kind of Plan "B" be appropriate once she moves out. How can one effectively plan "A" if the contact is minimal?<P> The divorce is in process and could be final in a week or two if we both cooperated. After reading everyone's responses to my post, I have changed my mind somewhat and begun thinking of putting a hold on it even if she moves out. But something tells me that I should put some kind of time limit on the hold, two months, six months or whatever. If I do this, is it wise to tell Susan what that timeframe is, or just do it quietly and submit the request for the final decree when time has expired? Another complication could arise if she has changed her mind about this and wants to get the divorce final. Even though I have been changing my mind about this, I haven't brought it up to her yet.<P> Lastly, I have a question that I would open up to everyone. The apartment complex told her on Thursday that her application process would be complete either yesterday or today. I know for a fact she didn't sign a lease yesterday, not that she would have necessarily told me, but I know. So if it didn't happen yesterday, it will today.<P> Over the Christmas holidays, whenever I would ask if her decision was final, she could never say that it was. She said things like she had "psyched" herself up to move, or that she felt if she didn't do it now, she might always regret it. I would ask specifically if she had stopped considering staying and she would just give the answers above, not truly answering my question. Once she did say, "What have I been telling you all along, I am not sure about anything". Well, she's like that with me, but with everyone else, she never mentions any reluctance at all. Mom and Sis are all excited about her upcoming change, especially Mom. She has offered to bring her boyfriend down and help Susan move.<P> Sunday night, I asked her if she loved me any less than she did a month ago, a year ago or several years ago. She said "No" and I believe that she does feel that way. I try to use that to say if it's true why not give us another chance. What I have asked for is two to three months where she will make an effort to exercise some of the freedoms she wants and gauge my reactions. I have told her that I am not asking for the rest of her life, just a couple of months. She never responds, but it does obviously create some distress in her mind.<P> Anyway, the doubts in her mind only surface when I address them. And once I have touched that nerve, she goes into a reserved or depressed mood that lasts for hours. When I ask her this question, she <B>never</B> gives me a direct answer. I don't know if she just doesn't want to because she thinks it will hurt me or she knows she could be convinced to stay and doesn't want to give me the opportunity to do that.<P> The urgent question boils down to this: Do I keep reminding her that she <B>does</B> still love me as she has said on many occasions and that if that's true why give up? In other words, to I keep up with the gentle reminders to consider <B>not</B> moving? I could send her e-mails at work today, a phone call wouldn't work because she's in a cubicle and doesn't feel the privacy to talk. <P> DuncanMac I have appreciated the time and thought you and Suse(as well as others) have put into my situation. I value your opinions and I thank you so much.<P>--DeWayne--

Hi DeWayne,<P>Lots to think about, huh? Very tough decisions, and ones that can have great impact. In some ways, I am hesitant to offer advice for that reason. Then again, I guess I'll just throw stuff out there. Ultimately it's you who must decide. I've already come to know you as a thoughtful, careful person so I'll barge on....<P>Okay, so I'll start by trying to better answer your questions about my post:<P>First, about how I felt during my period of infidelity. I felt as if I were living a double life. And, I had made a conscious decision to do so. It took me a long, long time to get to that decisive point. I'm one of those who saw myself as never being able to do "it".<P>It basically evolved in my own mind over about 5 years. Suse and I were at an impasse in our relationship (at least, I felt). At the same time, I was going thru a period of personal growth and questioning. The tail-end of this was a brief affair.<P>All thru this time,I never stopped loving Suse. In fact, with my own circular logic, I'd figured if I had a part-time, geographically-remote affair, it might actually help our marriage. Some logic, eh? *grimace*.<P>During my affair, I could act lovingly. I could act calmly. I could easily tell Suse I loved her. Yet, I'd made up my mind that something was missing and that the odds were against finding it with Suse. So, I'd look outside the marriage for that connection.<P>Sound familiar? So, even tho' our situations are different, I can draw some analogies between your wife's behaviour and my own.<P>As for other "classic" symptoms. I had the "bad boy" ones pretty bad. Not enough so as to look stupid as a 40-something guy pretending he's 20-something. But, rebellious nevertheless. I was doing my own version of what I thought "cool" should be as a 40-ish guy.<P>I stayed up late. Went out to blues clubs by myself when travelling. Dressed in "cool" clothes, frequently elegantly black. Grew a goatee (I already had a moustache). Wore my hair fashionably longer. Get the picture?<P>I very easily struck up conversations with women. I tastefully flirted, made eye contact, etc. And, for many years this was definitely NOT me. I'd always avoided it. Not during that Bad-boy time. I was experimenting. And, admittedly, it was fun. And, one of the residual benefits of this Bad-boy stage is that as I'd begun to have a more playful attitude with life...guess what? Suse liked it too! She'd actually instinctively started doing Plan A before either of us even found Harley.<P>As for your other questions:<P>#1: What I meant was, even if she were to run away from you, there's a good chance she'd recreate some of your relational dynamics with someone else. There's a WHOLE lotta stuff in the counselling public domain written about this.<P>Basically, most people get married for the right reasons. At least at the time. Problems begin when the relationship changes as it has to over time. Both Suse and I have come to be believers in the theory that many betrayers end up with long-standing unmet needs that are so urgent at some point that they risk all the good stuff they have to sattisfy those unmet needs. Oh, and btw, depression plays a big part in that.<P>Net result: she may get a few needs met, yet have lots more that you'd satisfied previously. Now what? Another affair?<P>That's kinda how it works.<P>#2: my OW was a very responsible first-born who'd always been take-charge. She is more dynamic and decisive than her ex-H. She's a very intense person. In her case, she felt that he was too passive for her. She wanted intensity. She wanted the "soulmate" thing. But, I also learned that he was just the anchor she'd needed during many times of her life. His calmness was not passivity. <P>Anyhoo, she was acting out bigtime. I was her second paramour in 2 years. She got married to the third. What she told me at one point during a very emotional confession is that she might've stayed with her H if he'd taken charge, put an end to her activities, and passionately attended to her. That's her story.<P>#3: I agree with some of what you say. The freedom will be so enjoyable and invigorating. What I'm suggesting is that after a time, she may not enjoy the price she pays to achieve it. As said, we can't have both independence and intimacy. Ultimately, they are incompatible. I'm not sure that in the most intimate of relationships there's even such a thing as "self". I truly do think you meld.<P>Back to your point, I also agree that she will rationalize things. But, none of us can rationalize forever. Eventually, the gut catches up. When it does? Blammo, lots of cognitive dissonance. "Things" just don't feel right. True, we all have varying capabilities to withstand that discomfort, but most of us end up resolving it.<P>Okay, so this has gotten wicked long and philosophical. What the hayall do ya do with it?<P>Some goofy suggestions... perhaps examples of "tricks" as I termed them. Can you try some unexpected things? You may have already tried all these but I'll wing it with a spontaneous list:<P>1. Ask her to describe what her ideal life would be. Whether you're in it or not.<P>2. Ask her how she sees herself in 3 years, and how you might be in her life.<P>3. Ask her if you could do anything for her, what would it be?<P>4. Ask her to go away with you for a week. RIGHT NOW, if you can. Either she can plan it or you can plan it. Heck, you can both plan it. Let her pick.<P>5. Ask her to name one crazy thing she wants to do. Could you two both do it?<P>6. If she gets the apartment, what would it be like if BOTH of you lived in it for a week? <P>7. If she's not comfy with that could you make like you two had just met and start dating again? Ask her for the opportunity to woo her?<P>8. Ask her why you should give her the divorce? Especially because you don't want to. You'd do ANY thing to keep her.<P>9. Think she'd write a contract with you? Let her state the conditions? With penalties for violation?<P>10. Ask her what you could do/change to make her stay?<P>I've thrown a lotta stuff up in the air here. I don't know if any of it applies. But, what I do sense is that she wants the option to explore some things in her life. She also has an issue with you controlling her. Again, whether you did or not is not relevant. It's what she feels.<P>Enough for now.

OK, dMac -- I have gone thru your list with her. I will try to address each of your suggestions then I have a question for all....<P>#1 - She cannot describe her "ideal" life, doesn't know what it is yet.<BR>#2 - She cannot see that far ahead<BR>#3 - Let her move out w/o divorce<BR>#4 - Couldn't think of anything<BR>#5 - She would not go away..."Can't"<BR>#6 - She doesn't want both of us in the apartment, that's not why she wants it<BR>#7 - Dating is fine, I just have to get in line with OM and maybe others<BR>#8 - She doesn't necessarily want the divorce right now, just the freedom to act like she's single<BR>#9 - No contracts<BR>#10 - Nothing<P>OK, assuming she moves out with no rules or restrictions, do I continue Plan A? Is it time for a Plan B derivative? Do I remove her from life/health/auto insurance and let her get her own? Remove her as a beneficiary of life/401(k)? What do I provide and what do I take away? This is all assuming that the divorce is put on hold...<P>Thanks for any and all input.<P>--DeWayne--

Dayam!<P>She didn't bite on any of it, eh? Grrrr.<P>Okay, here's what my gut says... all this avoidance is part of her rebellion. She's going to quietly go about her own merry way. Wants no interference from you, wants no involvement, wants no input.<P>So, what do you do? Try giving her what she wants? Do nothing.<P>See if this fits. My guess is that you're a very decisive person. You take charge of things, tie up loose ends, plan to work and work to plan. What I hear her saying is she doesn't want any part of any of that right now.<P>Fine. I think your best alternative is to let go. As our friend Terri has said, you're not going to have ANY sucess making up someone else' mind. Each individual has got to find their own way. So, as you've posted back to me before, you can't prevent her from going. A line from an old B-movie science fiction thriller pops into my mind, "Give up, resistance is futile".<P>Yeah, your wife's controlled by aliens. Of her own device.<P>In another dialogue, Terri and I also talked about the concept of "the 180". Simply, this tactic is about making an immediate course-reversal thereby possibly startling the spouse into a reversal as well.<P>So, try it? What happens if you DON'T do anything for awhile. No divorce. No discussion about 401Ks, health plans, etc. Just don't deal with it at all. Just like she's doing.<P>Then what happens when she asks you about all this stuff? Maybe say something such as, "honey, I love you too much, I care about you too much. I can't help you leave. I only want you stay. I'll work with you on anything you feel appropriate for your needs. I just can't work to help you leave. etc. etc. etc."<P>Anyhoo...try it on for size. Later.<BR>