Problem: I think my H has been unfaithful.
To what degree I am not sure. We have discussed this and he says the relationship never became a sexual one. I don't believe that. This doubt has been with me for 6 months or better. I can't go forward without knowing the truth.

Background:
2nd marriage for both of us. Husband did cheat on first wife. Husband does lie.

Approx 2 years ago through job change husband developed a relationship with his boss (female) that evolved into sharing of to much personal info. They were a mutual admiration team. She declaring him "the best hire she ever made" He declaring "we think on the same level"

Husband has worked with many females. Never did I have reason to pause before.

I asked husband to re-evaluate his relationship with this woman as I felt it had moved beyond that of a professional one. He said no problem he could do that.

A few months went by and the company decided to downsize. She was let go with the first round and he the second.

Several of them kept close contact with each other meeting for lunch etc. Mostly for support.

Eventually husband found job, not in his field but kept up job search in it. The woman finally found job in the field.

During this time I found emails from her to him that conveyed her feelings of concern for his personal well-being, her daily trials with her children, and some borderline flirtaeous inuendo.
Husbands reponses were of same type.

I asked him if he thought this was maintaining their relationship on a professional level. We argued and he then agreed it was not. Again telling me he would move it back on a professional level.

Few weeks passed, more emails. The lunches I thought were attended by many if not all of the people who had been let go from their jobs was now limited to just the two of them. Of course I asked what is going on here? Why are these lunches being kept a secret. He said because he knew that I would be upset by them. I asked if she was aware that I was unaware of the lunches and he said yes he had told her of my concerns of their relationship and that he could not let me know they were meeting. I asked him if he wanted to stay married he said yes. Then I said I could not as long as this was going on. He said he understood and would stop it.

Supposedly he did.

Within two months he told me he had a promising job interview back in his field. This was great.
I asked about the company. He told me the name and what they do. He secured the job. He was to start in 2 weeks as he had given notice to his present employer. A couple of days went by and the name of the company rang a familiar bell. Where had I heard the name before? Then it came to me. Some of the emails from the woman came from this company's address. I asked him about this. Then he had no choice but to tell me he was going to work with her. Did he think I would never find this out? I asked. He said he was going to tell me but hadn't found the right time yet.

Look I said if there is nothing to hide here then why are you doing just that? Again he said because he knew I would be upset. He really wanted this job because it was back in his field. I did not have a problem with that. I wanted him to have a job in his field for a number of reasons and he knew that. Again he told me there is nothing more to his relationship with her than that of a professional manner. I told him that is fine keep it that way. Months went by and then she was let go. He was very upset. Wanted to know if we could invite her and her children to spend a weekend at our lake house. I said I did not think that was a good idea. Time went by I felt bad that someone had lost their job but I also felt it was in my marriages best interest. Only to find out they were still keeping contact. When I asked him about it he lied and said he had not talked to her in a long time. Then I said there is no reason to have any contact with her now. You are not doing any business with her. It is time for you to end this relationship because I cannot live with it any more. He said no problem. I asked him to tell her to not email him or call him at home. That if she needed to talk with him concerning a legitmate business matter she should call him at work. He said he would. He did say something to her of which I am not sure exactly what.

I work some evenings they are always the same. One night I came home and as I was setting at my pc his blackberry buzzed and vibrated off the dresser. I picked it up looked to see if the thing was ok and listed were his emails one subject line reading "Is this a bad night to call"? From of course her.

When I asked him about it he said he had no idea why she sent that and that he had not talked with her since he told her not to call except for business and only at the office. I didn't buy that. I found his response to her email he said "sure you can call" after he told me he did not respond. Then he said the reason she called was because one of their fellow co-workers had a bad accident and she thought he would want to know. This person works with him not her. Then I found that wasn't true. She did not call for that at all. I didn't buy it anyway because though his fellow co-worker did have an accident she would not have found out before he. Once he was cornered he admitted that was a lie. But didn't know what else to tell me. That was it I asked him what the hell he wants. He said he wanted to be married to me, that he loves me and there is nothing going on between her and him. Then I said you should have no problem with disolving the relationship it puts our marriage in jeopardy. I just no longer believed he would end it. So I sent her and email myself. Told her that due to the fact that their relationship had evolved into something other than a professional one it had become unhealthy and that she should not contact him via our home pc address or home phone.

So now a few months have gone by. I have tried to get past this but I can't because I don't know what really went on here. He swears I just have it all wrong.

My instincts tell me I don't. But could I have it all wrong? So how can you go on to fix or repair something if you don't know what you are trying to fix or repair?

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: AWife ]</small>

I have been trying to read the different articles and advice here but am having great difficultly deciding what is relevent to this situation.

I only know I must have the truth before I go forward and do not know how to go about that.

The only advice I can give you is the road I took. I called the OW and she told me everything. Now the OW in my case was single, no kids, never married. She didn't have much to risk by telling me the truth. So your situation may be different. If she is married, I'm sure she'll lie to protect herself and/or her kids.

The OW worked for my husband...still does. So I know a lot of how you feel. If it hadn't been for the OW telling me, I don't know if I would have ever found out the truth. That is the only advice I have if you feel you just MUST know. But if it truly has been over for several months, it might do more harm than good stirring this all up again.

Good luck!

godhelpme2

thanks for the response. The problem is because I don't know the truth I don't even know if it is still going on or not? The OW is married during this time period she told him she wanted a divorce. However after she lost her job my H told me she had mentioned "maybe she should go back with him". She is re-employed but I do not know if she is with her husband again or not.
If I asked my H he would tell me he has not talked with her. I don't think I would want to call her though as I have met her on different occasions (business stuff) and she always looked me up and down and took an arrogant stance sort of speak with me. The email I sent her put that on a whole different level. I would like to keep it that way. And I don't think she would tell the truth either as she knowingly engaged in secret meetings with my H in the first place.

Also, I guess by airing my dirty laundry I would like opinions based on what I wrote as to what you all think went on here.

A,
First, I am sorry that you have reason to believe your husband has been unfaithful. I know that feeling is the worst feeling(except for actually knowing).
Second, from all that you have written, I would have to say that, yes, your husband has been unfaithful. I would guess that is was also physical, but even if it wasn't, he was having an emotional affair with her. Any type of relationship that is kept secret is an affair, IMHO. My H didn't feel anything was wrong with the friendship part of his A, but it was a secret to me, and it hurts me more than the sex part.
Lead you H to this site and show him that there is a thing as an affair without the sex, and it HURTS you and your marriage. I pray that it didn't turn physical, b/c there is another set of worries that goes along with that type of relationship, but like I said, I would not doubt it.
Please keep strong, and begin spying. You will feel like a fool, but you will learn probably more than you wish to. Hopefully others will be able to help you with that.
Read as much as you can, it really will help!
True

Thank you for your response truetooneself.

I really have not been able to talk with anyone about this. I have good friends but I don't want to expose something that may or may not exist. I do love my H very much though I feel stupid saying that. Generally speaking I am a very strong person. Not in this case. I have been praying for a long time that God would give me a path to follow but either I am not praying right or I am blind.

It saddens me greatly to see how many people have experienced this horrible hurt. It is a blessing this site exists yet it doesn't say much for the world.

I do so much appreciate your opinion. I needed so much for someone to evaluate the situation. I plan to direct my H to this website I think it can be of great value to our marriage but you know what they say you can lead a horse to water...

It is to me imperative to find out the truth. I do not think any problem that occurs in life can be resolved without knowing exactly what you are dealing with first. Sure you could put a bandaid on it but they wear out. It would I think be much better at least for me if he were to admit the truth. Otherwise I feel like I would be working on this alone and I don't think that success can result from just one side.

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: AWife ]</small>

I was in a similar situation and even to this day he claims that the cheating stopped once we were married, but b/c he did carry the relationship into our M I found out about it. It drove me crzy not knowing the WHOLE truth.

When I started to question him about, what started off as one phone call, I had no idea the dept of the R.

Hindsight, if I were you, and depending on how much you feel that you need to know the truth. I would stop at nothing to find out the truth. I would not say one more word to him about, let him think that it is over and I would I would start snooping like there was no tomorrow, even hire an PI and try to get proof. I would even tell OW H.

B/C the next time I suspect my H of cheating again that is exactly what I'm going to do and I going to pray he slips up so that I will know the truth.

If she is married I would definitely expose this story to her husband. Exposure is a very strong "tool" to stop this kind of behaviour.
Second, you should defend your boundaries. You let him step on you with none consequences to him at all. So why should he then stop doing disrespectful acts to you?
Start up by building respect for yourself. Tell yourself that you are a person who deserve to be respected. And then do not any longer tolerate disrespectful behaviour towards you.

Speak "I" sentences when you defend you boundaries rather than "you" sentences. That is a way to defend your boundaries without the letting the situation escalate into a full conflict.

There is a book called "love must be though" that is a help to defend healthy boundaries in a marriage. Also the book "thorn asunder" is recommended by many. Here at MB you can buy "surviving an affair" (Abbreviated SAA in these pages.) That is a very good book. But I would not consider it the best to open his eyes to his disrespectful behaviour. Perhaps the best book would be "Not just friends" which is highly recommended by many.

God bless your struggle for a better marriage!

<small>[ February 19, 2005, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]</small>

A Wife,

Yes, I HAD to know the truth too and was willing to go to any and all extremes to get it. It was already obvious I was not going to get it just by asking him or her. Tried that and got more lies. The "just friends" story.

Yes, I think you have good reasons to be concerned and suspicious.

By all means, spy! There is some great software out there that you can install on his home computer (if you have one) to catch every email and IM and have them sent to your email addy. CHeck out Spectorsoft.com.

It sounds very much like this is an ongoing affair, whether emotional or physical really isn't the point. It needs to end and he clearly isn't making the right moves to do that. So, to me, it indicates he is definitely lying about this relationship.

Talk to her husband, too. Tell him what you suspect and ask if he has noticed any odd behavior on the part of his wife when it comes to your husband. Often you'll be able to put 2 and 2 together in one phone conversation. This guy needs to know, too, about this inappropriate relationship.

Take care.

~ SNow

AWife..your story hits home to me, more than I care to admit. My husband, too, had a "friend" at work who called our home too much. Once I told him I was uncomfortable with it, it continued in secret.

I believe you did the right thing in emailing her, however, I wouldn't take it as gospel that the inappropriate friendship has ceased because you asked her to stop. Trust your instincts. Your husband kept details of their relationship from you and that in itself is a betrayal.

I wish the best for you. I know how deep this kind of pain is...I'm still feeling it every day.

Good Luck!

The hurting doesn't stop. Try living with it for 10 years. I also come here to air dirty laundry. Trying to support spouses whose husbands/wives are "just friends" with other people they refuse to give up.

Spy, carefully, save your evidence in a safe place.

WhiteDove, Frank, Bette Spaghetti,Bellevue,NerlyCrazy, Snowball,

Thank you all for the time you have taken to read my posts and respond. It is greatly apprecicated.

My God I am just amazed how many people have the same situations happen and get the same run around.

Telling the OW's H has crossed my mind. Actually I almost did that once was about to do so when my H divulged the OW was getting a divorce and the OW's H had moved out. Again I don't know if they have gone back together after the OW expressed to my H that maybe she should go back with her H. Maybe she never did and just used that for pity or whatever motive. As I said she had lost her job when she said that but now she is employed again. Wreaking havoc most likely someplace else. Her managment style is less than ethical I think. But she gains loyalty, power and the ability to manipulate these people. I was shocked to see my H fall for it as he is typically very strong, fair, and capable leader himself.

In any case I am taking an emotional break today as I am sure you all know how much this takes out of oneself.

I did have my husband look at the marriage builders website and to my surprise he was very much interested and said he would like for us to go to a marriage counseler. I am willing to do that my only reservations are that we will be hashing through this all over again and it is just so draining. Doesn't mean I will give up but it would be so dissapointing if all we did is go round and round again over the issue of just leveling.

H admitted the reason he would promise to end the relationship was to get me off his back so that he could be what I have heard refered to as a Cakeman. As far as his lying. He admits to lying and that he has done it a lot in his life but doesn't come forth with the truth just that he has lied.

After he saw this website he then admitted that what he had "had" was an EA. He further stated it was over since I had sent the e-mail.

Tuff to take on face value. I would be more inclined to believe him if he had been the one to end it. If indeed it is ended. Vicious circle. I certainly would like to find a way to break the cycle.

Thanks again for your support and advice. Just have someone respond is so helpful I cannot express it in words.

This is a copy of the email I sent the OW. That may or may not have done the trick.

Due to the fact that you knowingly engaged in secret meetings, conversations, and tawdry flirtatious e-mails with my husband I logically concluded that his relationship with you was no longer on a professional level. It had for whatever reasons developed into an unhealthy situation. Consequently I asked him to limit his relationship with you to that which it should have remained in the first place. He told me that would be no problem.

From my understanding he conveyed my findings to you, my request of him and related to you that it would no longer be a good idea for the two of you to see each other except for business matters.

My husband asked you not to call him at home but that if you needed to speak with him to call him at the office. At the time he told you this you said “ok”. You further stated you did not want to be responsible for creating any problems between us.

Your statements clearly acknowledged that you understood what he told you and that you would do as he asked.

Given this subject line; “Is this a bad time to call”?, what do you now not understand that you did then and why did you then not want to be held responsible for creating problems between my husband and I only to turn around and do just that?

I can only conclude that you must be a ***** and possibly a whore to boot.

Now since you obviously are not going to behave with respect for what my husband has asked it is time for me to intervene and I am not asking I am telling you, “do not call my husband for anything other than a legitimate business reason and furthermore do not send e-mails to our home pc address and do not call our home.

Now I can only tell you that it would be in your best interest to do exactly as I have told you to do because if you choose to ignore it you will not like the consequences.

I trust this matter is settled.


When I told her she would not like the consequences I believe she knows what I was talking about with regard to things I know, she knows, I know about her business dealings.

I have been reading and looking for somewhere on this site for something written on EA. A clear definition. Can someone help me find info on this?

Thanks

Dear awife!

At the top of the post-list in the just found out forum you will find a thread that explains all of these abreviations. There are quite a lot. Here are a few:

EA : Emotional Affair
PA: Physical Affair
A: Affair
MB: Marriagebuilders
SF: Sexual satisfaction
WW: Wayward wife
WS: Wayward spouse
BS: Betrayed Spouse
STXW: Soon to be x-wife
M: Marriage
OP: The other person, the person threatening the M.
FWH: Former Wayward husband
FWW: You guess it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
DD: Discovery day, sometimes also Dear Daughter.
DS: Dear son
D: Divorse

AWife,

First of all,after being here over a year,I can tell you that from what you mentioned,your WH is involved in at least an EA.There are so many classic statements and actions that read liar/cheater.Because your WH is adept at manipulating you and saying the "right" things at the right time,he has you off balance but your gut is telling you that what is going on is not just your imagination so trust it.WS's all try to make US look crazy when they are just being liars.

Second,you should not(hindsight) have told this OW that she would not like the consequences if she doesn't do exactly as you told her to do.This can be seen as threatening and now she has an e-mail to use against you in the future if she wants to get really nasty.From now on,I would suggest that you refrain from contacting her.Afterall,all of us "old timers" know what kind of people OW and OM are.But where you need to keep the focus is on your own WH.In reality this OW is nothing but trash so forget her.If your WH really cared about you and your feelings,he would stop,once and for all,this repeated contact with the OW and following her around and vice versa.He has not yet cut her off completely so she keeps turning up like a bad penny.

So,what to do.As was mentioned,do tell the OW's husband.Do not hesitate.This man has a right to know about the inappropriate relationship going on,and it is,and this will put a big damper on their little love affair.They will be mad for sure but that is a consequence of your WH NOT telling this OW to get lost,period.No more games.If your WH is serious about ending it with this OW then he needs to write a NC letter which you both review,agree upon and sign.If he refuses,another red flag goes up about his intentions.Also,the suggestion that the OW was going to D her spouse tells you how serious this was.

Remember that this OW and the EA are symptoms of a change in the marriage that is not good.Your WH has cheated before and although cheating once doesn't always mean they will be a serial cheater,if he never dealt with the reasons WHY he found it acceptable to cheat on his previous wife and found it acceptable to try and solve his marital problems this way,it is certainly easy to understand that he hasn't learned from his previous affair and is repeating the same terrible mistakes.

Your WH has to be willing to get into counseling too with you or he is going to run the risk of being D'd again.And the stats on D for second marriages are worse than the first.Hopefully he will make an effort here to see he is headed down the wrong path and is about to destroy his life all over for some OW AGAIN.

O

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Awife,

I share your thoughts about being surprised at how many of us are out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And we're only the ones fortunate enough to have found this sight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

My FWH's EA, which eventually became a PA, began as a college friendship. THe OW lived overseas for 10 years and they maintained contact over the years. When she moved back to the US (opposite side of the country)and was in desparate need of employment, my H hired her as a freelance writer.

I knew they were frequently in contact, but I never paid any attention to how frequently since I didn't feel threatened by her. She is pretty unattractive and heavy so I paid little attention to their friendship.

A couple of times, he did mention to me that OW H was abusive. Over time, they began to confide their marital woes to each other. She and her H eventually split up and my H failed to mention this. If I had found this out at the time, it would have been a red flag.

I didn't even question it when he "visited" her over a holiday weekend two months after the PA started. Of course, had I known she was separated, I would have not agreed that it was OK for him to visit her.

I pretty much kept my head in the sand for the first five months. I even ignored some pretty obvious evidence. In short, I didn't want to know.

Looking back, I should have been suspicious and spied on him. I was guilty of taking him for granted for years and he looked for someone who didn't.

He never intended to leave me, never loved the OW and would have ended the A at any time rather than risk losing me, however, I chose to look the other way.

The A reached a point where the OW was so needy and demanding that he actually hoped that I would somehow rescue him. It was very difficult for him, because he also feared that instead of rescueing him, I would simply throw him out.

I agree with the other posts that your H is probably having an A. I think after reading your posts that you need to find out as much as possible so you can decide what to do next. Once you are more certain, then is the time to lay down the rules.

I wish you lots of luck. THis has been the most difficult 14 months of my life since d-day and in some ways, since my H's A died of natural causes before I knew for sure, I wish I had never found out. But then, I feel that our marriage is better than it was before, different, but stronger.

God Bless.

Well I think some progress has been made here but what a long road ahead. H is finally leveling. Yep no doubt he was having an EA. We have agreed we need counseling. So we will begin soon. It is an odd thing that once I knew the truth I knew instinctively there would be hope for us to work on our marriage. Now I am not in any way naive to think it could not happen again. His history from past marriage indicates he has a serious problem with this.
He said he doesn't like that he is capable of this behaviour knowing how devastating it is to others and himself. He said he wants it to stop and will do whatever it takes. It is so simple to me...just don't do it. But I guess he has issues that need working on along side of working on our marriage. We will see.