I'm back! What a crappy couple of days this has been.... but maybe good too. I'm reluctant to give details because it was actually uglier than it should have been due to some unintended consequences which may have helped out.

After 3 hours of counseling with local marriage counselor recommended by our pastor. A lot of crying and apologizing. She feels humiliated. She is alone overseas without our son. I told her it was temporary until we could overcome some of our issues and stopped hurting each other. I couldn't even touch her until finally, before leaving for the gate, she put her head on my chest and just sobbed and let me hold her. She called me again on my way home and said she thought we could work it out together. I said I didn't mind getting rid of the family members and their opinions, but we needed a coach to help correct the mistakes we had both made. I got a big thumbs up from the marriage counselor by the way. So I think I dodged the Love Busters. I also received a phone call today with the potential for an overseas job near her. Her temp position is for 3 more years, and it means the world to her. If I can incorporate the family into that, I think it might be a good thing for her.

It also appears that the affair was primarily emotional, and she needs to talk to the young man to end it herself, which she claimed to have initiated the night before I sent him home. She seemed sincere since she was too tired to make it up.

We're both hurting right now, but I have new resolve. She has some anger issues that need to be resolved also. So if we don't make it together, she'll be able to raise our son into a healthy man.

She handed over the passport for our son. No problem. She sees I'm in control and thinks I'm manipulative. I have a set of goals now, and I'm taking them one at a time.

See you on the other board.

SIS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she needs to talk to the young man to end it herself </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOOOO!!!!!!

Get "Survivng an Affair" NOW, and read about the proper way to end an affair. Better yet, get the book, but start with How Should Affairs End? Let me hightlight a critical part of that article: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley recommends this because by talking to this person and ending teh affair personnally, they are actually continuing the affair. Remember? Thisis an emotional affiar based on conversation - so she wants to talk with him some more...and you are OK with this?!?!?! You are WAY too trusting. You should not trust her again until she earns your trust back - and that will take months. Furthermore, they are putting the feelings of the affair partner ahead of you, and (on of the many characteristics of affairs), AND they may plan further contact with extra precautions to avoid detection, or profess their undying love, even while trying to do what is right - but which continues the affair in their heart and mind. You weould not send an alcoholic back to the bar to say goodbye to the bartender. Obviously, you can't control her, but if she INSISTS on doing it, then you should insist on being there.

If you can't get the job in the same locality as her, then she needs to quit the wonderful job she has...have you ever coinsidered that one of the things she likes about the job is her ability to be independent of you? You can't recover from this when you are not communicating, and the time and distance barriers, combined with your lack of trust will be almost impossible to overcome.

Thank you for your excellent points John. I got the book in the mail Friday. I'll follow your recommendations.

The OM is not coming back. WW is isolated in Europe, and I'm communicating with her daily for 1-2 hours by phone. There are some job opportunities there that I'm pursuing. So I'll take another look at those.

This is a lot of work. There is almost (not any) no hope of her leaving her assignment in Europe at this point. I'll have to find another way, or its just over.

Just got of the phone with WW. One of the ugly details I left out was that while sending the OM home, I did it without my wife's knowledge. She shot out of here and chased him to the airport. When she returned, it was just me, and I sent my son away for the night so she would not take him with her to Europe.

When she got really angry and started throwing things, I tried to hold her, but she didn't calm down and I was beginning to lose my patience. In hopes of calming the situation, (I didn't want anyone to get hurt) I called the police. After the phone call started she calmed down and I told the police not to come. Unfortunately they came, and they arrested her in spite of my protests and refusal to cooperate. Apparently they HAVE to arrest someone by State Law. She spent the next 40 hours in jail. She's not really happy with me. I guess that could be a Love Buster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So she promised herself in jail that she could not be married to a man that would do that to her. And she has to divorce me. Now I just wait for the paperwork I guess.

She joked that maybe we could still date and maybe we'll get married again one day. I don't see her correcting any of her behavior, so I guess that isn't really an option.

Anything else I can do that's healthy? Son is still here with me, but I've agreed to work out a shared custody verbally. He'll finish his school year there, and come here for the summer. I can visit him anytime.

Hmmmm.

She can use any excuse she wants to justify whatever she wants to do, and you can't do ANYTHING about it. All you can do is ask yourself what kind of man you want to be, and be that man. If you find that difficult (who doesn't?), ask God for help.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She joked that maybe we could still date and maybe we'll get married again one day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really possible if you're in Plan B, is it? It sounds like she wants to keep you around as an insurance policy or something. One of the many advantages of the Plan A/Plan B approach is that it avoids that kind of abuse.

As an aside, this is a great example of a man doing the honorable thing and having his wife interpret it as unloving. I've started reading a good book ("Love and Respect") that focuses on this particularly pervasive form of disrespectful judgement, and its corollary: when a wife's loving actions are interpreted as disrespectful by her husband. Frequently couple get in patterns where both occur repeatedly in sequence. He calls it: "The crazy cycle."

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

John, you are correct. I realize it... begrudgingly. I'm just trying to excercise all opportunities for safeguarding the kids right now.

I'm a real Boy Scout all right. I'll endure just a little more pain to see that the kids are OK. I'll meet with a counselor tomorrow or Wednesday to develop an independent plan without being vindictive.

Minor thread jack here SNS(sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )You can read too SNS, obviously.

John,

Can you elaborate a bit on this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when a wife's loving actions are interpreted as disrespectful by her husband </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dr.Dobson's book "Tough Love" also touched on the changes that occur in relationships where disrespect comes into play.He states that "marital discord almost always eminates from seething disrespect somewhere in the relationship".He goes on to say that he is trying to describe the gradual changes in perception.

This definitely was part of my WH's withdrawal from me but I do not know where or when this happened.I do not understand how he could disrespect a woman(me),his wife who doesn't drink,smoke,do drugs,is a great mom and was a good wife,whose home is always clean and neat and who loves life,etc.Doesn't make sense that he would disrespect me as such.I don't know.It's intriguing.I didn't get a complete answer,to my satisfaction anyway,why this occurs.

Maybe I will just buy the book you mentioned.Can you name the author? Do you like it so far?

O

I think buying the book is a good idea. The author is Eggerichs or something similar. He thinks there is something built-in about the way we are created that makes us "filter" things we see in a way that often makes us mis-interpret our spouses intentions. Actually, most of the people who recommended it to me are women who say it really helped them understand their husbands (and sons!).

Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thread jacking here...

"Love and Respect" tells us that we should always show respect to our H's (of course not when physical or verbal abuse are present). With women, I feel, it's our "mouths" that are disrespectful. I have caught myself many a times with my sarcasm. Pushes our H's into an "unloving" mode. Then the "crazy cycle" begins.

It's hard in today's society, to be a "submissive" wife (I don't mean being a slave), but to be married, I feel it's necessary.
Great book.

SIS-I have been following your posts...you and your children are in my prayers.

Thank you everyone. She's firm on going through with the divorce. She explained that she just can't be married to me anymore, but she wants to keep things as normal as possible for our son. She felt trapped. She's looking at divorce forms now. We'll split everything up financially. We've already figured out where our son will be through the summer. She's friendly when we talk and keeps asking me if I'm OK, and I tell her politely no, but I'll survive. She makes quite a bit more money than me (but we're both well compensated). She's concerned that I can still stay in our house and has proposed sharing some of the burden. She has said she wants to make sure the kids lives are disrupted as little as possible. If we have any complications, I have a lawyer that's been recommended in case I need one.

When I visit I'll stay in the apartment, and we'll do things together. She even suggested having me sleep in her bed, but nothing would happen. WHY SHOULD I NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT? I'm sleeping in the guest room.

She thinks maybe we can have a better relationship when we're not married, and maybe we can start dating again. "Who knows,maybe we'll get married again one day", she says.

HAS ANYONE ELSE HEARD THIS BEFORE?????

OUTCOME?? (Actually a previous boss of mine had two wedding anniversarys. He and his wife were divorced for two years and then got married again.)


I'm not taking her back unless she's willing to change some behavior.

We'll do some things together. I assume I will just keep it polite and not give her any of the extra attention I would give my wife. I do have the problem of being human and she is incredibly good looking, but that's not what I want.

Is it that hard to find someone to love and have them love you back? How do you keep from closing your heart? Halfway through 'Surviving an Affair.' Now I need the one that says 'Surviving the Divorce'. I'll pick up Dr. Dobson's book too. I've always wanted to read it anyway. I have a phonecall into a counselor too.

OM is still out of picture for now. I'm going to pick up his stuff when I go over next week and ship it to him. He is apparently not responding to her E-Mails anymore.

My supervisors at work are sad for me, and have offered to help however they can.

Do I still pursue the job in Europe, or stay put. Am I even in Plan B anymore?

Hi SNS,

One day when I was in my WH's office,he told me he wanted to marry me all over again and we talked briefly about our daughters being flower girls.This was just before I dropped a bomb on him: that I found more evidence he was still in contact with the homewrecker and that he called her crack pot parents house and her cell while he was at a convention and at some hotel.

That blew the remarriage idea to smithereens.And,this was during our first false recovery.

When confronted,he stated that he was just calling to comfort her because he had "ended it".I told him it was no longer his job to comfort HER and she needs to find that support ELSEWHERE.He agreed then he went right back to keeping contact after that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LIAR!

In other words,the WS says all kinds of demented things/lies to the BS and they make no sense at all.Just like your WW.

As it stands,I would not pursue a job in Europe right now.Unless,you are from there originally and want to return home.

I have read that about 20% of couples who D remarry.And we have had one or two,that I know of,here at MB that had this occur to them.Hope4future is one I think?

Anyway,of course your WW thinks all can be hunkie dory if you remain "friends" That is what many WS's want and so did my WH.I cannot do that though.My WH resisted that for a long time.I think now though he finally sees how this is better for me.And boy was it a sad thing for me to accept but I felt it deep to my core that I could no longer have this man in my life at all.I cry every single time he comes near me and it's because he never gave us a REAL chance.He made me feel SO inconsequential after being together 20 years,best friends,buying our dream home,giving birth to his 2 children,etc.There was no way I could ever be around him again.I am protecting myself,what he did not do in our marriage.

Unfortunately,our hearts to start to scar over from events like this,the innocence is gone and it's just tragic all the way around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I have many walls built up right now around my heart so I don't know what my "love life" will be like, if ever again but through God's grace,perhaps I will find a man one day worthy of what I have to offer.I do know that I will not accept any less and anyone who is not already up to speed will not be an option.

You hang in there SNS.One thing at a time ok? You are not D'd yet so don't look too far forward.Live in the moment~

O

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

SNS - no, you haven't even started Plan B. Plan B means NO contact between you. You handle child issues and finances through an intermediary. It starts with you writing a letter stating what measures you are taking to protect your love for your W so that if she changes heart and wants to reconcile, you will still be willing. It also includes the conditions under which you will attempt to reconcile.

Look, I am not qualified to guide you through this, nor are most other people on this board. Call Jenn or Steve Harley. They are not cheap, but it is money well spent.

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

I may be just as lost anyone else in the relationship quicksand, but this post from start to finish mystifies me.

1. Given her behavior why would you want to stay married to her?

2. Why be angry at the 19 year old? He's an independent third party making bad choices, but I think its the wife that's gotta go and the husband's anger should be directed at her.

3. Does all this go on where the kids can see any part of it? Then that's horrible.

4. Assuming this story is 100% accurate and fair to all parties, I think a divorce is better than living like this.

Vern

Vern, no one is suggesting that their MARRIAGE stays the same. It can't after something like this, anyway, and, as you point out, why would they want it to? Before my wife confessed, she had this strange notion that after her confession, if I did not divorce her, things would go back to the way they were, more or less. If I had to go back to the way things were, I would choose divorce. Her affair made me face problems in our marriage that I had been ignoring for years. If we hadn't found ways to address those problems, we would be divorced now. The principles Harley lays out in his books and in the Basic Concepts section of this web site were a tremendous help to us in facing and fixing our marriage problems.

Though you may be surprised by how much progress you can make on your own toward fixing your marriage, you really can't do it alone. Plan A and Plan B are designed to get a spouse to re-commit to a marriage, at which point the two of you can attempt to fix it.

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Thanks John, and O-girl.

OK. So I'm firmly in plan A long distance with frequent visits.

I'll be friendly and kind, but not pursue her. I sent her my take on splitting up assets today. I believe it was extremely fair.

Son and I are calling mom in about 15 minutes before she goes to bed.

Vern. Keep reading buddy. A healthy intact family with a woman I've shared 10 years of my life is worth trying to save. Keep in mind that change needs to come from her side too. The capacity for love first comes from being able to be happy with yourself. If she cannot change her behavior to be a more healthy relationship and the ten years together are not as important to her. Then it's over, and I'll try to make sure our sons are damaged as little as possible in the future. But they will be damaged.

Time for a new thread I think.