A couple of days ago, I had a dream about the OW. This dream wasn't about beating her up or ripping her a new one but a dream that I called to tell her that I am not angry at her anymore? Since I am so confused about the forgiving part, does this mean that I forgiving the OW? I do feel somewhat of a peace about it and I don't feel any rage when I think of the A. as I used too. Oh but I still hate her because she is a very mean callused women who told me things that was meant to hurt me when all I wanted to know was why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
And what about recovery? Because D. looks very promising, am I recovering??? What does recovery mean? Does it mean both of you on the way back to a successful marriage or a successful person????
I am just so confused!!!!

Ali~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Ali88

I'm not familiar with your sitch at all, but I thought I'd give you my 2 cents anyway.

In answer to your initial question, I'd say if you haven't forgiven her completely, you are well on your way.

Do you think you hate her or do you hate the things she did and said to you? I certainly wouldn't blame you either way; but I think if we can get to a stage of feeling indifferent towards the OP, we are much better off as people.

Did I understand this correctly that you and your H are divorcing? I'm sorry to hear that. I hate to see any marriage fail. However, it looks like you've been at this a while though, and if you are divorcing, you've certainly "earned" the D.

In answer to your question(s) about Recovery. I think there are two types of recovery. Some people experience both, some neither, and some only one of them. We can "recover" our marriage, we can "recover" ourselves, or we can go without recovering anything at all.

If you work on making yourself a better person and on making any future relationships (whether it is with or without your H) healthy, then you are recovering yourself. In that respect you are in your own personal recovery which is essential if you want to fully rebuild your marriage. There is recovery of the marriage as well--when you and your H are working toward the common goal of loving each other and making your marriage strong again. Both of these things can occur at the same time, one can occur before the other, and in some instances, neither is achieved. But there is no correct order and they happen at their own pace. Personally, I think you are recovering on a personal level, which will make any future relationship more healthy.

I hope this helps some. Let me know if I wasn't clear or anything. Also, whether your marriage is successful or you are divorcing, if you want to discuss recovery issues that are about recovering your self, go to "In Recovery." There have been some wonderful recovery discussions on that board that you may find very worthwhile.

Ali I am in the exact situation. My H had a 1 month affair out of hurt and anger after suspecting I was seeing someone. Now he has confessed to evryone else but me including our pastor. He has begun drinking and is overcome with guilt but will not admit it to me after I even told him I knew about it and i forgave him. I just don't know what will turn this thing around. I have just been giving him the time and space he needs and has asked for.
Find out as much as you can and get good solid proof to back it up. I have been investigating like crazy for the last month but mine has been a little easier because all of his friends really like me and they are discusted with him and what he has done so they are giving me a lot of info.

Sorry posted on wrong thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Hi Ali
Gosh I am confussed to <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I dont think I have forgiven OW but I have come to a place of not being as angry at her,maybe this is where you are.I still blame her as much as I blame my H,they were both adults they knew right from wrong and BOTH had the power to say "NO" but chose not to.

So to answer your question,,,,,,,,,,I dont know if it is full forgiveness or just a step in that direction.

I have come to realize over the last few days in my situation the divorce is not out of hate for my H,in fact I still love him.The divorce is to protect me from anymore pain he may choose to inflict(sp)on me.Mine has not been an easy life w/him,there is so much from the past that he did to hurt me,to make me feel less than human,to disrespect me,so much,,,,, and his A did nothing but open up that box I had everything pushed away in and let it all out.His A put me over the edge,and for me there is no returning back no matter how I feel about him.

I dont know if these words will help but I hope they do.

I also wish I knew what recovery was,,,,will we ever really be recovered??

E-me I miss you!!!!!!!!!!

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: gingersnap ]</small>

does this mean that I forgiving the OW? I do feel somewhat of a peace about it and I don't feel any rage when I think of the A. as I used too. Oh but I still hate her because she is a very mean callused women who told me things that was meant to hurt me when all I wanted to know was why.

I don't think you have forgiven the OW. You are definitely entitled to hate what she said and did to you. But I think that you would feel that sense of peace, if you did. I do want to make the distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation. They are very different things. You may forgiveness for what they've done to but that doesn't mean that you need to continue a relationship with them. Continuing the relationship is up to you. Either way though it gives you the opportunity to let go and move on.

It sounds to me that you've reached a good place in your mind that you hadn't before.

Way to go, Ali!

Hi everyone!

I think the real anger now lies with the H. OK no brainer there. But with her? Yes, I hate her because she was after Randy from the day he first started his job. She knew he was married and had a new born that was going to go through major surgery. When I spoke to her, I told him that I was worried about him and how much I missed him. Not in the exact order but she said "oh we'll take good care of you H. for you!" OK I didn't mean for her to sleep with him. If we were separated or having thoughts about divorce OK then maybe but that wasn't the case! Then she laughed in my face when I confronted her and all I wanted to was ask questions why. She told everyone at the office that she was going to get him. You know, I wish she would have kept him. Yes, it hurt A LOT as you all know but knowing what I do now? No real loss there. Honestly, this is my thought in affairs. If anyone can take him away from me, they can have him. It is just that he came back to me and was dwelling and dooting (sp) over her. Some of you remember. So I hate her for her being a real B*tch! I wasn't even rude to her when I called. But then after her rude comments started flying out of that uncouth mouth of hers, I was. Little did she know, I am the queen of come backs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes Ginger your words are helping. As they always do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Right now I am in a state of "chicken" Boy the fears are hitting me. I am so comfortable living like this that I am afriad to make any new changes. I feel the EXACT same thing as you do about the H. I want the D. to stop hurting and belittling me. He is the King of projection.

But SAB, yes I think it is forgiving. ooohhh I never want to be her friend. You know, if she was a kind person who didn't know that he was married etc., I think I would feel otherwise. The rage that was inside me and the humilation that I felt when she laughed at me was just too much. I know part of it was a self esteem issue. I mean why would she laugh at me and put me down if she felt so great about herself??? In ways, I just feel sorry for her.

Ali~

Oh yeah Floppy, you understood everything!

Thanks so much for the imput. I think you are right. I am recovering as a person. I metioned to everyone that I learned so much about myself in the last two years that I am really impressed of the person I have become. But I am such a chicken right now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Ali~

Ali,
I am of the opinion that your Marriage could still be saved.

As I read how things are going for you, it seems that neither of you has a recovery plan. I agree with you that it ought to be Randy that comes up with that plan, but if he won't, you still could.

I think it would take a lot of work, but D will also, and that is coming up fast of nothing else is done.

It looks like some days you wish for D, and some days you think it would be good to work everything out. If nothing is done to stop the withdrawls from the Love Banks, you will wish for D more and more, and someday it will happen.

If your marriage is to succeed, there will be things that have to happen to make it that way.

What do you see as being necessarry for it to work? That is, are things you know are necessarry for recovery, and if so, could you list them, and talk about them with us?

I hate to see something come apart that could be saved. Once you loved each other, and I think I still see some of that love from time to time. What do you think?

SS

Hey SS!

Good to hear from you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Recovery plan???? I have talked to him until I was blue in the face discussing what I need from him. I mean I told him literally step by step. I lowered my standards by not giving him subtle hints like; "Gee, how lucky she is to have a husband that tells her she is pretty." I had to flat out tell him...Would tell me that I am pretty! That is an example. I never really said that. But just so you have an idea.

I asked him back in October to go back to marriage counseling with me. And he replied; "I just don't feel MC is working." Well, I told him you have to work on it. She would give us assignments and he would not do them! I would. I told him that I cannot continue to feed him that he has to meet me half way. It is almost as if he was waiting for someone to take over his body. And he would be cured!

Then there is the emotional abuse. No real hard names calling. But it does go on. When he is comfortable calling me a B*tch, then you know something is wrong. He is very passive aggressive. He manipulates to get his way. Like a teen. Like the other night. I was having such a difficult time with the kids because each of them wanted me to be in five different places at one time and I was making dinner and they needed me here, there, cutting this....blah, blah, blah. So I was stressed. He came home and looked at me and started to complain. I said; "Look I am having a really hard time and I really don't need to hear it from you too"! He walked in hearing them scream at me. Did I yell at him? No. But I did say it in an irritated tone. I asked him that I could really use his help. And he looked at me and told me why should he? So then, getting to my point, he told me yesterday that all I do is yell at him when he comes in. I was dumbfounded! Because this man had a lot of nerve to say that. He always comes in the house, looks high and low about how "messy" the house is, how much I had to spend that day, or complains about who knows what. And that is a typical day with him. It is almost as if he is taking all of his days frustrations on me! Which I did tell him that instead of yelling at me about nonsense, tell me why you are upset! I am the greatest listener. I used to sit up at all hours of the night with him when he was down or something was troubling him. But he projects everything on me as I am the one that yells at him each night when he walks in the door! I mean that is just a speck of what goes on in here.

There is so much underlying issues. Believe me. I was and I was meeting his emotional needs. But it didn't fill him up because of his own self esteem. I did all I can with him. And I asked him to go back to IC and again he said no. We had a talk the other night and we discussed a lot. He said to me that he knows what he needs to do but he doesn't know why he doesn't do it! He is soo successful at his job but at home? A different story.

Because of what he has always told me about what he wants in a women, I feel that I can never match up. I tried doing the things that he wanted in a partner. But it wasn't good enough. So then last year, I started focusing on the real me. And I think he feels threaten by it. He always told me how attracted he was to red and blondes and women with degrees and who works in a professional environment. Hummm, I have light chestnut brown hair, I love the outdoors, and I only have two years of school. Every time before we were married, a blonde or red was interested in him from work, he would "dump me" put me on a shelf to see if it would take off. And if it didn't? He would coe crawl to me. Stupid me! I feel that he just settled with what he could get! I mean take a look at his A. He was feeling so low too about himself from the job loses, that he fell "victim" to it! I was there for him and he knew that. But that didn't stop him to have his A. He admitted to me that I was there and did everything right. Then he told our MC and MB that he had not had sex for almost two years. WEll, that is because he found me unattractive both pregnant and afterward. Then he left me for Texas. Duhhhh! Hey, I was willing! But from what people have told me I am considered very "pretty"! Oh hell, I had someone last year approach me and asked me if I was interested in competing in the Mrs. Illinois pageant!!! I am also told that I have a great out going personality. So what the hell is wrong with me???? I give and I give and I give and I get walked on! I am not perfect! But what else can I do????
I feel that we have exhausted all options. Unless I turn my check and swallow the way he treats me and believe me there is a lot more here that is not being discussed, then that is the only way I can see it work!
I am scared because, I have built up this wall around me and I am afraid of failure. All the years of him telling me that I am useless without my degree that I am not going to make anything and don't expect to get a lot of money from me thing...I kind of believe it. I am not a school person. I don't want to go back. I have made the decision in the last month. But I am looking into my business. I will take non credit courses but that is about it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I just don't know what else to do! I used to think the same way you did. As a matter of fact, I did when I just started posting on MB. But I realize that he cannot meet my needs and I cannot meet his either. I don't want to stay in a marriage because I am breaking up the family if I do. That is no reason. I believe that children learn what they live. Example, my H! His parents lie so much. Well, so does Randy. If you get caught you're in trouble, but if you can get away with it? Then you did good attitude! NOPE! He confided in his Dad about the affair. Oh great role model there. Here is a man who is 70, seeing three different women and none of them know about each other. As a matter of fact, I was told from him: "If "J" one of the girlfriends for 20 years asks where I was, she thinks I visiting your brother inlaw in Japan when in reality he was in Florida with another girl friend! He told Randy to stop it and don't tell her (me) and get on with your marriage!

Oh, I could go on. I will say that I love him because there is a long history and I have known this man my entire adult life. But I have no feelings of passion, or sparks..nothing. When he tries to kiss me? ICK! I hate it!

Sorry there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Help? Suggestions?

Ali~

Ali--

I'm confused. What you are "chicken" about?

You seem to be well on your way, whether that be by yourself or with your H, is really irrelevant.

--------------
Edited to add:

Okay, I read your last post and see where you're scared. I have to leave but will get back to you again later.

In the meantime, I think you may be doing the right thing. From the sounds of it, it's not just his not meeting your needs. It sounds as though it's bordering, in not outright, emotional abuse.

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Floppy ]</small>

Wow !

I better give you some background on why I said what I said.

When you have posted for the last few months, it seems like some days you want it over. But - it seems like some days you would really like it to work with Randy. I didn't read all of the posts that you and Randy did when he was activitly posting, so I wanted to see what your thoughts were.

Recovery plan???? I have talked to him until I was blue in the face discussing what I need from him. I mean I told him literally step by step.

I have been told that I am really dumb, but that i can follow directions reasonably well. It is a shock to see that some men can't even do that.

I probably shouldn't tease like that, but I feel badly (understatement) about the way this is going. I don't understand how he could have gotten himself to this point. I do understand that he has done it to himself.

I lowered my standards by not giving him subtle hints like; "Gee, how lucky she is to have a husband that tells her she is pretty." I had to flat out tell him...Would tell me that I am pretty! That is an example. I never really said that. But just so you have an idea.

One of the reasons I stay on MB is so I won't forget.
Both what I need to be doing, and what happens if I don't do it.
I get the idea. Such a little effort, with such huge rewards. It's a wonderful thing to see the light in my W's eyes again, I don't ever want it to go out - ever again.

I asked him back in October to go back to marriage counseling with me. And he replied; "I just don't feel MC is working." Well, I told him you have to work on it. She would give us assignments and he would not do them! I would. I told him that I cannot continue to feed him that he has to meet me half way. It is almost as if he was waiting for someone to take over his body. And he would be cured!

This is a death knell to your marriage. If he won't make an effort - especially with neutral MC, I can't have much hope for him. I didn't realize he refused to go.


Then there is the emotional abuse. No real hard names calling. But it does go on. When he is comfortable calling me a B*tch, then you know something is wrong.

If I ever called my W something like that, and my dad heard about it, I think he would kill me himself, not wait for her dad to find out, and do it. I agree it's emotional abuse. We men can be pretty small sometimes when we think we look big, can't we.
When he walked in and you were cooking, and coping with the kids:
I asked him that I could really use his help. And he looked at me and told me why should he? So then, getting to my point, he told me yesterday that all I do is yell at him when he comes in. I was dumbfounded! Because this man had a lot of nerve to say that. He always comes in the house, looks high and low about how "messy" the house is, how much I had to spend that day, or complains about who knows what. And that is a typical day with him. It is almost as if he is taking all of his days frustrations on me!

This is how I was - and when I realized what I was doing, it made me sick inside. I am not sure how we can be so blind. My W shut down, and didn't want to be near me either. We looked good from the outside, but we didn't have the love and closeness that ought to be in the marriage partnership.

I wish I had the words to say how sorry I am that it has gotten to this.

Which I did tell him that instead of yelling at me about nonsense, tell me why you are upset! I am the greatest listener. I used to sit up at all hours of the night with him when he was down or something was troubling him.

You did it the right way. The sad thing is that most people wake up only it is too late. I am afraid Gingers H is finding this out.

But he projects everything on me as I am the one that yells at him each night when he walks in the door! I mean that is just a speck of what goes on in here.

I don't need to imagine the rest of it, I think I lived it. Please understand that I wasn't blaming you when I wrote that last post. It's just that I could still hear the part in your voice that wanted to make things work, and I wondered all the reasons were for it going so badly. I begin to see - another understatement.

We had a talk the other night and we discussed a lot. He said to me that he knows what he needs to do but he doesn't know why he doesn't do it! He is soo successful at his job but at home? A different story.

"No other success can compensate for failure in the home."
David O. McKay.

"No one on their death bed wishes they had spent more time at the office."
Stpehen R. Covey
7 habbits of highly successful people.

Perhaps the most sad stories of all are where the person knows, but won't do anything about it.


I know all of us have faults. I see below you don't claim to be perfect, but I don't think you can fix this (your marriage) by your self. Marriage should be a partnership where both work for the other, and for the good of the family. When one is so selfish that when asked to help they say: "why should I," there is not much the other can do for them except leave. Plan B, in other words.

So what the hell is wrong with me???? I give and I give and I give and I get walked on! I am not perfect! But what else can I do????

You know what comes next. I won't ask you to discuss your plans, I just wish it could be different.


I feel that we have exhausted all options. Unless I turn my check and swallow the way he treats me and believe me there is a lot more here that is not being discussed, then that is the only way I can see it work!

Everyone is entitled to basic human dignity. We are taught to turn the other cheek, but we don't have to walk the same road every day if we know we are going to be taunted. We don't have to keep putting our selves in a position to keep taking it over and over.


I am scared because, I have built up this wall around me and I am afraid of failure.

All of us are afraid of failure. All of us have our own demons. Courage is doing what must be done , even in the face of those fears. As you can see, Ginger, and SAB both have great courage. I believe you can find it too.


All the years of him telling me that I am useless without my degree that I am not going to make anything and don't expect to get a lot of money from me thing...I kind of believe it.

We would be foolish to say it will be easy. Freedome often has a high price. I am sure that your future has some rough times in it, but then, I bet mine does also. I keep tring not to be afraid, and some days it even works. I have to believe you will make it.

I am not a school person. I don't want to go back. I have made the decision in the last month. But I am looking into my business. I will take non credit courses but that is about it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am interrested in your plan, but don't know if you can reasonably talk about it here. You do seem to have a dream, and that is good.

I used to have a saying taped up on my wall.

"Happy are those that dream dreams, and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."


I just don't know what else to do! I used to think the same way you did. As a matter of fact, I did when I just started posting on MB.

I didn't know the whole story. I only got little bits from the few posts I read. I could tell you have a desire to make it work if you possibly could. I wondered about a lot of what you have reported since. It is not a pretty picture.


I believe that children learn what they live. Example, my H!

I believe it also. I am afraid for many here that stay, and the children learn to live a lifestyle that no one should have to live. I am so sorry about his fathers example.

Oh, I could go on. I will say that I love him because there is a long history and I have known this man my entire adult life. But I have no feelings of passion, or sparks..nothing. When he tries to kiss me? ICK! I hate it!

My W used to turn her face away. Been there, done that. Not a good place to be. I feel badly for stiring up the feelings, and I am sorry you had to type this all out and remember everything.

It was a difficult road back for us, but so worth it. I wish he would travel this road with you.


Help? Suggestions?

I kind of see your plan, I suggest you run it. A two year plan b migh help him see some things, but I am not sure if it would be good for you.

How are the kids doing through all of this?

How are you doing emotionally?

You sound really good for what is happening.

SS

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

A two year Plan B huh? I will look into that!

Just right now I am on the computer avoiding him as much as I can and he comes in here and whips toys at me while our littlest one was looking because I didn't pick up the play room. Believe me, we looked like the perfect couple too. Nicly dressed, nice house, nice cars. But some only know the what is going on in the inside

I have got to get out of here. Over the weekend was pure hell. I mean pure hell. It got really bad. He was soo bi-polar (though he is not but his actions act that way) it was scary. He knows that I am not giving him any attention or "needs" met. He would ask me why don't I kiss him or hug him? Ok I don't have to give you the answer to that. But then an hour later he'd be screaming at me. Then I called my Dad to tell him that I need some cash to seek the attorney. Since Sunday, he was kissing my butt. I guess he was snooping on my conversation. Up until this point he was being "too nice" this evening, he tried kissing me and I told him I don't trust him. I took the dog out so I can warm up. We are without heat right now. I wanted to worked up a sweat. Then it would be warm in the house. I went out to buy that treated log becasue it last longer than real wood does. OK it smells like diesel fuel in here. But anyway, I wanted to take a shower and warm up because I was still somewhat cold. OK weird logic about the walking part. But then I noticed his mood and decided bad idea because I did not want to be in a vulnerable position and him wack on me! So I came back here to avoid him and this is what I get! again!

So yes, I asked my Dad for cash up front for the attorney. Randy lost just about 30 grand a year from this job. We are barely making it now. He refuses to get one. But he mentioned to me while I was leaving a message to my sister that I was referreing to the attorney. He is scared!

OK I have a huge headache! This smell is getting to me! Never again will I buy this log and I bought a lot of it! I am really dizzy here. Humm this is not good!

I will get more in depth later on.

Thanks SS. A least you saw the "light" and is able to make the right decisons! You're support means a lot to me!

Ali~

BTW, I was kidding about the two year plan B. It might let Randy see what has really been going on, but I DO NOT think it would be good for you.

Ss

Still, you silly. I know you were joking! It has been plan B for how long now??

Going to see the attorney tomorrow! Just for the free consultation to see what my rights are and for most part, if I can get more than just child support!

Ali~

Well i cant really give ya much advice on the Dandy Randy situation, but i am a wood connoisseur. As a wood connoisseur of over 36 years, i highly reccomend a blend of ceder and oak logs to replace the artificial wanna-be log. As many side by side comparisons have determined that a blend of ceder and oak logs outlast that of a burning artificial log. You may want to keep this in mind next time you purchase a home heating source to ignite in your fireplace. Also the nice essence of ceder and oak while burning really brings out a calming soothing effect.

How did your appointment with the attorney go?

Hi Woodmaster. Hey my house is cedar, I should have just burned it up! LOL

Thanks for the advice. Why didn't my logs catch? Just smoked? I went to the neighbors and they gave me some of their logs.


Hi SAB! Went good. Got that big pit in the tummy feeling. I am so scared! How am I going to make it on my own. With day care so expensive and the jobs pay nothing around here. I mean my salary will just pay for day care. I will be getting maintance for 3-5 years plus child support. But that doesn't come out to a whole lot! I'd still be working to pay child care. His support will probably cover rent and a bill or two. Insurance, bills, food, clothing. I am scared!!!

Ali~

Ali,

As a wood connoisseur i can tell you have excellent taste by purchasing a dwelling manufactured of cedar. I too am scared what tommorow hold for me, my wife left me for a "mini-me". Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery. You could also look at your situation as an adventure, think of yourself as a small little cute sprout just waiting to grow tall and vibrant! Yes, there will be many rainstorms that try to unroot you, but you are deeply rooted and even though this rainstorm your going through is pulling hard, nothing is going to stop you from growing.

With day care so expensive and the jobs pay nothing around here. I mean my salary will just pay for day care. I will be getting maintance for 3-5 years plus child support. But that doesn't come out to a whole lot! I'd still be working to pay child care. His support will probably cover rent and a bill or two. Insurance, bills, food, clothing. I am scared!!!

I understand. Without my H working, my salary covers daycare, rent and a couple of bills--and we haven't even eaten yet. I'm trying to cover 6 people on what I make.

There's a wonderful book called, "How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of Debt, and Live Prosperously" by Jerrold Mundis. Although it focuses on the aftermath of debt, it also covers how to live good & well within your means. I recommend it. You can even email the author with questions if you like.