Infidelity has a scary book of directions. Uncertain, unfair,everchanging. Even if I had the instructions I would still lose. Maybe if I started somewhere else or chose a different piece or skipped my turn or ?. Some games I understand like chess or monopoly or twister but this one leave me baffled confused,hurt,and abused.Crying,not eating,praying,apologizing,trying to mend this,boy! Say ten things and one gets noticed. Do ten good things and one, be nice ten and so on. It seems and I've been told that its my turn to make it good,work for,fight for,and at the sake of putting up with all. My effort bouce almost as fast as her checks. And my love goes unnoticed and ridiculed and blame raises its ugly head. Terrible rules to this game. I want to play lets have fun and talk well and appreciate each other and go places and sing to God and pray and eat good food and etc. .......

David,<P>You and Sheryl have to be on the SAME team, here. Youtwo seem to be missing each other's targets all over the place. If youw ant to play a fun game, stat by spending your time, attention and efforts on Sheryl. You have got to leave the other people out of this. The only extra people that need to be involved right now are counsleors, pastors, and mentor-friends of the SAME sex for each of you. <P>You are a prayerful person, that I can tell. You need to pray to be able to communicate in a nice and effective way to your wife, so that she may respond in a nice and effective way. In my heart, I know thatyou and Sheryl love each other verymuch. You just don't know how to stop hurting each other right now. She says something you don't like, and then you do something she doesn't like and the cycle ges repeated over and over again.<P>Keep praying and PLEASE get to counsleing - not with lady friends - but with a trained professional - a counselor or a pastor.<P>Still praying for you and Sheryl,<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Wouldn't it be great if life and marriages came with instructions...then we would all win. But it doesn't....We must use our hearts and our heads to guide us through all of this. We need to look at the big picture and the effects our actions have on people we love and care about. Sometimes we say alot of things we don't mean and do alot of things we are sorry for. That is why God forgives us all. And sometimes when it is all said and done someone is left reeling from the pain and hurt. It is sad, but all so true. My only suggestion is to love. To know that you both are worthwhile people that are not perfect. Think before you speak and walk away before you say something bad. Be true not only to yourself but to her. I wished I still had the chance to make my marriage work. I regret that my H never gave me that. I hate living with regrets. I know it is hard, but get back on track. You love her and she loves you. Sounds pretty good to me.<BR>Nancy

If you want someone to see how much you love them, you must show them in a language they understand.<P>Have you read Chapman's "The 5 Love Languages"? What is Sheryl's love language? What are her needs? Express your love for her in HER language. And, she should express her love for you in YOUR language.<P>Therapy together with a counselor who is trained in solution-oriented therapy sounds like a good idea. You can get an idea of what solution-oriented therapy is from the book "Divorce Busting" by Michele Weiner-Davis. If what you are doing isn't working - DO SOMETHING ELSE.<P>Do it, please. Marriage is a bond which, when broken, leaves a terrible scar not just on the couple, but on all the members of both of their families - immediate or otherwise. <BR>Picture my 5 year old niece (she looks like Cindy Lou Who from "How the Grinch Stole Christmas") looking up at me earnestly on Christmas morning and asking, "Why doesn't Uncle H come to see us anymore?" Broke my heart...<P>Don't throw it away. You're so CLOSE!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P>

David,<P>I know you are a religious man...<BR>That's a hard thing to find now a days...<P>You can be proud of yourself... if you're true to that faith...<P>You say that this "game" you don't like...<P>But... you know something... the rules of this "game" are a lot more simple than you imagine...<P>Your faith says "love you neighbor as yourself"...<P>Rule #1... treat Sheryl better than your neighbor... treat her as well as yourself... she is after all one flesh with you... never to be divided... <P>I, like you, have been betrayed by my W...<BR>and my betrayal is continuing... <BR>Your's has stopped and now you yourself consider betraying... please don't...<P>Don't join the greatest of all betrayers...<P>Look... you've posted here before... I've replied a few times... I think you know of this "<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>"-thing... Do me a favor (I know you don't know my story... it's OK... you don't have to know it)... go to my recent post on a session with Dr. Harley... click <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/011275.html" TARGET=_blank>HERE</A>! It talks about being a "doormat" in Plan A... What I hope you take from it is that there is nothing wrong with being a "Christ-like doormat". Wasn't Jesus afterall the epitome of a "doormat"... when crucified? It is the most beauty gift Jesus gave us(because of His Resurrection)! It can be the most beauty gift to <B>YOU</B> by the resurrection of your marriage...<P>Christ's bride is the church....<BR>Your bride is Sheryl...<P>Yes... Sheryl needs to understand this as well... <B>Giving</B> is not something that is 'bad'.<P>Give this some thought. <P>Dave... I love <B>you</B> as much as I love Sheryl... as a follower of Christ. I pray that he leads you <B>and</B> Sheryl to the union he called you to... in true love.<P>Working hard to save my marriage, <BR>Jim

You sound so much like my husband. I finally gave up on him and left. He got a new job and moved out of town. Thought freedom was what he wanted. Thought I was the root of all his problems and his depression. You know what?? Your wife can't make you happy. Another woman can't make you happy, although the euphoria of initial attraction may fool you. Only YOU can make yourself happy. I also think if you open your heart and mind Sheryl can be a major part of your happiness. Yes, she is miserable right now. She feels guilty over her part in your problems. However, going to lunch with another woman from your church only rubs salt in an already very open wound. <P>Love God, love yourself and love Sheryl. I would suggest the two of you compromising on a new church together. <P>PS-- My husband is very miserable. He calls me daily now and tells me how much he loves and misses me. This after "hating me" for years. I won't reconcile with him, however, until he finds happiness within himself, not in or through me. <p>[This message has been edited by Janie (edited December 29, 1999).]

David -- Janie is absolutely right. No one else is responsible for your happiness, only you. You need to re-think your perspective on what's going on. This is <B>not</B> a game. It's not about winning or losing, it's about taking control of your life and making yourself into the kind of person <B>you</B> want to be.<P>There is no book of instructions. We just have to plod along and do our best and hope that things work out in the end. You can't force Sheryl to come to you, but you <B>can</B> drive her away and I know you don't really want to do that.<P>If you want to play, have fun, talk, etc., with your W, then <B>do</B> it. The constant barbs with reminders of who did what to whom don't serve any purpose. I know that it might temporarily make you feel better, you know, release some of the tension that builds up as you try to get past this. I have slipped up before and said similar things to my W, but you know, they harm our relationship and end up harming me much, much more than the temporary good that comes from releasing the frustration.<P>Believe me, when you do the 10 good things, are nice 10 times, and say the 10 things, they <B>are</B> noticed, but maybe each and every one is not <B>acknowledged</B> to your satisfaction. This is an issue that you need to get straight for yourself first, then sit down with Sheryl and let her know(nicely) what your needs are and how she can satisfy them.<P>You guys are out of synch. When Sheryl is working for and fighting for your marriage, you should notice that and start working and fighting(for the marriage) <B>at the same time</B>.<P>You are using a "game" analogy, so let me put it this way. How productive or interesting would it be if you were watching a football team where the two teams were never on the field at the same time? Wouldn't do much for you would it? Well, with your marriage, it's much the same way. You both have to work at it and at the same time.<P>Your love isn't going unnoticed, but you have to stop the little cuts, no more blaming, no more "lunches" with women you meet at church. When you do things like that, anyone would rightly question the love you profess. You have to show your W that she is more important to you than any of that. And if you do that, I guarantee you will see a response and a reward. There is an old saying that I know you are aware of: You can catch more flies with honey....". <P>Another analogy(Sorry, David, I like doing these), let's say you're eating your favorite dessert. The first bite tastes like heaven, the second bite is bitter, tart and otherwise absolutely horrible. The third bite is heaven again, the fourth like the second. How long do you think you will continue eating? Not long I'm sure. My understanding of what's been going on with you guys is that you offer a first bite that is tasty, let's say you offer a positive statement on working things out. Then you serve the second bite which may be an acerbic comment about who did what to whom. Then the third bite, saying "I love you and I want to work with you". Then the fourth bite, another comment laced with blame and/or ridicule. See the pattern here??<P>You need to break out of this pattern if you ever want to find peace, either with Sheryl or on your own.<P>Sorry, David if this all sounds harsh, it's just the way I see it. Keep posting and I'll be around if you want to talk....Good luck, I'm pulling for 'ya.<P>--DeWayne--

Hi 3 wishes<P>It isn't a game. If it were a game someone would win and someone would lose. <P>But in this case, at this point, you are both losing - but you both can be winners, too.<P>You and Sheryl are very vulnerable, and both of you need to be so careful not to end up making this situation any worse than it already is.<P>The thing about all of this, is; that you both want the same thing. That means you are on the same team. But for some reason, both of you are trying to see who is more right, or who is less right.<P>Sheryl needs to quit focusing on her needs, and start focusing on yours. You need to find a healthy way to deal with your resentment and anger. 1000 I'm sorry's isn't getting it. I'm not so sure Sheryl can do anything about your resentment and anger. But, if she focuses on YOUR needs, at least your lovebank would start filling up. And it is much easier to move on with a full lovebank, isn't it?<P>You guys have hung on and hung on, and I know it wasn't for "nothin". It is for something that will happen for both of you, an understanding and fulfillment that both of you can get from nobody else.<P>Hang in there, we are all pulling for you. And so is the Lord.<P>And, as I see it, two believers don't have any other choice but to keep on hanging on until they get it right.<P>God's peace and blessings to you both.<BR>TNT

rma-yes,effective communication is best.Lately Ill hear something hurtful and I counter. I will have to work again on this. mental-good advice,its hard to stop and think first.Usually I have to apologize and offer reasons. Seems its always my fault, but that cannot be true,I mean,I know its not.I just wish it could be good again. terri-havent read these or much of anything as I word 16+, but I will look for these.Language is typically anger and I dread to explore conversation. nsr-thank you! I love her-I dont love myself. Im looking for support and guidance-not a date,ok.When I had to hear several times how "Im not in love with you" and I havent been kissed in a long long time,I miss it.Christ doormat-no problem,dont usually like myself anyway,just persevering to a better aspect in my life.I run to save my children,was told to go,tired of the anger and fighting. Waiting for a better day.Peace-love-happiness.Gods direction. janie-not freedom-answers.how,why,when,where do we go from here?I did have anger early and wanted out-she was waiting for om and I was insulted. Then dissaproval showed its cruel face and demanded its rules and posted furiosly its dissatisfaction. heartpain-interesting! marriage covenant-unselfish.A promise to the other and I think to make it good. To encourage -not blame! ok football. your team hits mine in the face and I get penalized. Sorry my face got in your way.You know that she has been out with other for lunch,dinner and even e-mail to say the least so go easy on me. ok so I wish I had the answers and knew what to do, but we do what we can and God gave us each other to uplift and support and encourage. And if I wanted to go on I could complete a most extensive compilation of confusing misunderstood word,analogies and stories to confound only the mind of any and those who dare to fumble through the dark reaches of uncertainty and troubles ever to cross the path of any poor and miguided soul ever to trod this path. Just having fun,sorry for taking your time. Let us find God and then will we be free.

I've only been a member here for about 8 days now and I've heard a lot from Sheryl. I don't recall ever hearing your side of the story. However, I can tell you both are hurting and I'm not going to place the blame on either of you because it takes two to either break or make the marriage. All I can do is pray that your hearts find each other again. Keep Pressing on, you both are in my prayers. You both have so much to offer. Your marriage can be better than it ever was. Allow God to mend that which is broken so you two can be a living testimony to all you have contact with.<P>------------------<BR>"If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."<P>

David, <P>Since you called me to tell me to read this, and I told you I'd respond... here I be! <P>Okay, here goes:<P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Seems its always my fault<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Never said that, don't beleive it! Lots of things are <B>my</B> fault, and to quote your original post, "Say ten things and one gets noticed"... you suffer from this problem, as well.<P>As you said to Terri, you work 16+ hrs. a day. Can you cut it down to 12? Or maybe not work on Friday's??? Something like that would help your health and our marriage.<P>Re: your quote to NSR <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I love her-I dont love myself<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I love you too... and you need to find a way to love yourself. And, you are worrying me... I think you need that help soon. You talked about finding counseling together again? Still game? (that was a play on words from your subject title . Let me know, I'll call the insurance company myself, or you can do it... <P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>she has been out with other for lunch,dinner and even e-mail to say the least<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know who or what you're speaking of on this one, David. I told you and everyone on this board about my poor choice of taking a walk with that man from my past while in Palm Springs. I've cut off all contact with anyone else who is a problem, and haven't been alone out to lunch or dinner with <B>anyone but you</B> since the OM. <P>Re: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wish I had the answers and knew what to do <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Me too... but we can do this together... we can!!<P>And finally: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Let us find God and then will we be free<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course! And we both already have found God... no problem there.<BR> <P>

David -- I understand how you used the football analogy your self. Someone else commits the foul and you get penalized. OK, you may feel that way, but you missed my point, I think. I was trying to get you to see that working alone is pointless. You've both got to meet on the playing field at the <B>same</B> time.<P>You asked me to go easy on you. I'm sorry you feel I was too harsh. It's frustrating for me to see the two of you weaving and bobbing like a couple of boxers. Deep down you both want to stay married. I envy the two of you when I look at my situation, so I do get a little frustrated. I am just trying to maybe give you a little push, not enough for a penalty, though....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wish I had the answers and knew what to do<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You and all of the rest of us here, that's for sure. I don't claim to have answers, just suggestions that might or might not work. They are worth a try, though.<P>Yep, you probably could give examples of confusing statements you have heard. Doesn't matter!!! Your responsibility is to make yourself clear, make yourself into the person you want to be. Do these things and see if it makes a difference in the way you are perceived by Sheryl. See if it makes a difference in the way and quality of your communication with her.<P>There really is only one truth here. This is <B>hard</B> work on difficult problems. Gotta make the best effort possible though. You don't want to disappoint yourself. <P>This is all interesting, David. Please come back.....<P>--DeWayne--<BR>

Okay, now I am crying. I just read your wifes post to you. You two knuckle-brains. What you both want is right there in front of you. First of all I know you both love each other and want this marriage to work because you both are making an effort, ie...posting and doing things for each other. I agree with what earlier post said about you two being out of sync. Like I said earlier, slow down, think before you speak. Do the 10 second rule. Count to ten before you respond. (Unless it is something nice, then just blurt it out) It is the words you say in anger and pain that make all of the difference. Good Luck and I am praying for you both.<BR>Nancy

jamie lee- hope I speld this right! your remarks are very sweet and kind, a wonderful reflection. God bless you. nb-I like how this game goes,your reply is very nice,thank you. We'll talk later. I don't want to go back.I don't want to tell my story.I culd say to walk a mile in my shoes,but then I would need a new pair.I will go on,I will find that which I lost,I will tread to the end and then I may find myself. And maybe I'll see the prints next to mine and know that I am not alone.

David,<P>The only question I have at this point is re: your statement <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't want to go back. I don't want to tell my story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, I lost my chance when I didn't agree to counseling when you offered on Sunday? You did say you would try again, didn't you?<P>David, we aren't doing too well without help... you must agree with that! We need some guidance from a third person... please?<P>C'mon... if you want this to work, and I believe we BOTH do, then we need some help!<P>Sorry to make you cry, <B>Nancy</B>... there is love here... but it's so very foggy sometimes that I can't see it... Pray for us, we need it!!

David and Sheryl,<P>If ever there were two people in love with each other - it is you two! You guys have GOT to find a way to communicate and get to work on the SAME TEAM at the SAME TIME!!!!<P>THE LOVE YOU BOTH HAVE IS SO OBVIOUS!!!!!!!<P>GO TO COUNSELLING!!!!!!!<P>Desuree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

NB, quit defending yourself!!! Sounds like a lovebuster! You don't need to defend yourself on this board. We all know you are very sincere in wanting your marriage to work.<P>So is David. He is just as sincere as you. <P>David, you do sound really down, and I think NB is right to be worried about you. You hang in there, it will work out. <P>No demands, no demands, one another..... NONE! No demands for counseling, no demands for anything! Let this one ride!<P>And don't attack or defend!!! Just make deposits and no lovebusters, and be 100% honest with one another. I think you have the honesty part licked, I think you need to concentrate on depositing. Main thing right now, and NO LOVEBUSTERS!!!<P>

I cried because like someone said earlier, I am so frustrated because I wished I had that chance again to make it right. It seems you guys are so intent on defending yourselves that you forgot about what is really important here. It's no longer about him telling you how bad he hurts, it's about how bad you both hurt. Neither one of you want to see the other in pain so quit causing more. Of course this is easy for me because I never followed any of this advise and now I am losing the one person I so truly love. Even though he strayed.....I feel somewhat like I did too. I strayed from what was really important...THE BIG PICTURE...marriage and love. You too will get it right...I have faith...so should you<BR>Nancy

<B>What if there was a war and no one showed up?</B><P>Sheryl -- You and I have had this discussion already . . .<P>David -- You and I began this discussion, but you chose not to continue it.<P>You guys both want the same thing, desperately. Yet for what ever reasons, you don't seem to work on the same thing at the same time.<P>So many others have given you pretty much the same advise, yet you continue to wnat to add the last . . . but . . .<P>You can not have the last word, and still be successful at rebuilding your marriage. You both screwed up. Remember? OK, now that you both know you screwed up, don't you think it's time to work together?<P>Sheryl, you get depressed, when David attacks you. . . I understand this very well. I also understand that you are extremely hard on your self for your failures. OK, that's fine, but you have got to stop, and start rebuilding.<P>David, you get very defensive of most anything that Sheryl says or does. Rather than face the situation, you run and hide. . . 16+ hours a day, a church you don't want Sheryl to attend. Lunches with other women. The reasons simply do not matter, your trying to avoid. Remember, you have your failures in this as well.<P>Bottom line. . .You both have screwed up. It took both of you to get to the point you are now. . .It will take both of you, working <B>TOGETHER</B>to rebuild. You have to work on the same thing, at the same time.<P>I know this is probably hard for you guys to hear. I aslo know how very difficult it is to be able to follow the "advise" I have offered, but the benefits can be so wonderful.<P>Remember the old saying "nothing worth having is ever free?" Well this is where you have to pay that price. But you get what you pay for.<P>Back to my opening line . . . You have both seemed to drawn you battle lines. You continue to skirmish along those lines. It's time to stop all hostilities, and work for a lasting peace.<P>Enough analogies my friends. I know you love each other. . .You know you love each other. . .And we all love you too.<P>God Bless

rollmeaway,trustntruth,mental,emptyshell,heartpain. I can tell I've tapped into a loving,caring,and supportive group.Thank You for all your wishes and kindness. I'ts late and I must leave soon and I wont have access to a pc for 5 days so I must say bye for now. I will finish though by saying in short-counseling yes,honesty can LB, deposits are always good and too confused for big picture right now. Im feeling down right now and need to walk so pray for me if you would and God bless all. David.