This is my first post. My wife told me in Sept. that she was in love with her boss at work. She says there has been no physical activity, except hugs. My wife and the OM had spent months talking at work and their conversations became very intimate. OM was extremely needy,finally seperating from his wife, papers served in Sept, looking for someone to talk to, and found my wife. Through daily intimate discussions they became very close as she nurtured him and brought him out of his shell, falling in love with at the same time.AT the end of August, after discussing having sex and the possible ramifications, they decided to put their relationship on hold until my wife and I could decide if our marriage would work. They thought it would be best to try to just be friends,our families even went camping together the first week in Sept. Well the second week in Sept WS went to his house and declared her love and attraction to him. OM has one son, 5 and we have two boys, 14 and 11. Our 14 yr old has ADHD, ODD and has been diagnosed with bi-polar. Needless to say, our marriage has been full of the stress and strain which accompanies an at-risk child. Third week in Sept. WS told me she was in love with OM and had no feelings for me, but wanted to work on our marriage to see if it would work. We started counseling immediately,(Imago therapy), and have been going consisting. WS's goal of counseling was self-growth primarily while I wanted to work on our relationship. We got to the point of committing to make stretches to work on frustrating behaviors we each have,and committed to stop drinking. Things were very difficult, but we were working on it. I followed Plan A and exhibited very few LB. No real breakthrough until Dec. 23 when OM started dating another woman. WS became very jealous and said she understood alittle how I felt. She "came back" to our marriage "alive again" and said she felt like she was back to reality. She wanted him to suffer too and felt like she had to get out of her job. Yea! But, you knew this was coming, she can't. She can't leave her job, security, money, closeness to OM and OM now not dating another woman. She wants a seperation.Anyone ever hear about or been through a CONTROLLED SEPERATION,(CS), "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" by Lee Raffel. She says she can't live with me anymore because it would be dishonest. She wants the space and time and opportunity to see if this relationship could work. I know what Plan B is. Controlled Seperation is a contract you agree to which delineates rules of engagement; time limits , agree not to file for divorce, finances, child care, spousal contacts, dating others, counseling etc. I'm leaning towards Plan B, because she has stated she probably couldn't have just a friendship with OM, and desires to have sex with him, and wants to know if it could work.She does not want to work on saving our marriage, but wants to continue counseling. For communication she says. I feel very strongly that if we seperate and she moves out, she will have a sexual relationship with OM. I don't know if I can live with that. Plan B seems to have the BS accept the fact that the WS has had sex with with their lovers and when the relationship ends, and WS wants to come back, everythings cool. I don't know?? How can she leave her kids, for a chance on something she doesn't even know is there. She doesn't even know if he still wants a relationship with her. He's not supposed to, ha, ha, for a year, if he honors his seperation for divorce. Right. <P>Any ideas? I'm crying over her desire for the OM and know I need to appear strong at the same time. I've become emotional lately now that all my Plan A work hasn't worked completely.<P>If you read this, thanks. It felt good just to type it down.

Welcome <B>2afault</B>...<P>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Just from what you wrote so far...<BR>...I'd say... say with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... a while longer...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>I'm not sure you are ready for Plan B...<BR>...bu do check out my posts...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.)</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000413.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 201</A>.<P>You know... you are not alone!<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

In other words your wife is telling you that you are her second choice if her relationship with the OM fails. In my opinion you should tell her that she is free to go to the OM or whoever she wants but that you will not be waiting for her to come back. Instead of a controlled separation agreement have your lawyer draw up a divorce agreement. This way she will see that you are serious. You should not allow her to treat you with disrespect which she will be doing if you agree to her terms. <p>[This message has been edited by max (edited March 14, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B>Welcome 2afault</B>...<P>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Just from what you wrote so far...<BR>...I'd say... say with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... a while longer...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>I'm not sure you are ready for Plan B...<BR>...bu do check out my posts...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.)</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000413.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 201</A>.<P>You know... you are not alone!<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>jim, thanks for responding. I'd like to stay in Plan A like you say I should. I'm not sure if I'm ready for Plan B either. WS has other plans. Since my last post WS has spoken to OM and told him what she'd like to do and is planning. She'd like to have a relationship with him, including a sexual one, and she wants to seperate. He said he could not have a relationship at this time, he's going through a divorce which is up in Sept. He told WS that he would like to be friends and valued their friendship, but in no way was he able to have a sexual relationship. WS shared that it was a shot of reality, but still wants to seperate to be able to figure out what's going on, she's sooooo confused.She says her heart is just not in it and does not think we can correct all that is wrong in our marriage. She would like to try a Controlled Seperation,(CS). The idea of a controlled seperation is described in Lee Raffey's book entitled, "Should I Stay or Should I Go". WS' plan for our seperation would involve a trial of 3 months with an evaluation afterwards. She would continue to send the payments for the bills in, and we would agree to contact each other if we wanted to spend over $50. She would move into a room/apt. somewhere here in our community. She works an hours drive away in the city. Re: childcare, we have 2 boys, eighth and fifth grades, (eighth grader on school baseball team, both boys play baseball in local leagues).She would take care of boys after school on two weekdays bringing them back to me at the house late evening. Every other weekend the boys would stay with her from Friday aft. to Sunday evening. She would continue to work at her present job, with OM. She would maintain a friendship with OM and be able to talk about personal matters. We would continue counseling 3x a month, with her intention to work on communication skills. We would date once every other week. She says there would be no sexual relations with either OM or me. When asked if that included hugs, foreplay, kissing she balked and said she didn't know. She was unspecific re: dating OM, said we'd have to decide that. I asked her if going out to lunch would be a date, or talking for an hour at work. I also asked since we would only date 2x a month would that also apply to OM. We would both agree not to file for divorce during this time period. She says she would need few home furnishings, no problem.<BR>At present WS:<BR>- is "in love" with OM, even though he says he can't have a relationship other than a friendship with her.<BR>- WS has stated she can't have a relationship w/OM w/out it leading to sex, she wants to.<BR>- WS cannot seperate herself from OM.<BR>- WS refuses to find another job away from OM.<BR>- WS is not willing to work on reconciling our marriage/relationship.<BR>- WS says she cannot live without OM in her life.<BR>- WS states she does not love me nor has any desire to be with me.<BR>- WS is so obsessed by a relationship with OM that she's willing to give up her family, and give up living with her children and participat in their daily routines.<P>I am losing my strength to keep going. She is talking privatedly with OM during the day, coming home and laying in bed with me at night and enjoys my touches, caresses, warmth. She's getting her needs met by both of us. I'm not sure I can live with the fact that she will have sex with OM, and if doesn't work come back and want me to accept her. Is this a GIVEN in Plan A/Plan B. So many of these couples experience sexual infidelity! They have not yet had sex but how much longer will it be? Especially if they continue to reconnect and become closer and my wife desires a sexual relationship.<BR>If WS was to have caring for me, she world recognize how unfair this seperation would be for me as she describes she wants. She gets her freedom, an escape, the OM, and two men vying (sp?) for her friendship, company, love and affection. What WS wants is uneven, unfair, and self-centered. It lays the burden of responsibilities for family, home, the boys, transportation, nurturing, school and time on me. Is she supposed to have her cake and eat it too? Seems to me the OM is there enjoying a friendship and isn't about to be committed, keeping WS at arm's length. When OM doesn't speak in kind, WS is being used. Maybe not with OM's knowledge, certainly not WS's. OM is free and clear. WS is confused and struggling, and I'm getting hurt.<BR> I'm having trouble maintaining a "loving" attitude while hearing how she doen't love me, desires him and cannot pull herself away from him. I think I can take her back if she intentionally goes after another man and has sex with him. As Plan B is designed, it saves the BS the good memories and lets them continue life feeling good about what has come before. My armor's being chipped away bit by bit. It's been said a boy becomes a man when he learns to lay his armor down. I've shed my armor, she's clasping the talons into my chest, tying the ropes, lifting me up and spinning my body around. It's not really that bad but at times it feels like it. She says we have been working on things, but as long as she is committed to the OM and he is a priority and is in her life daily she can't commit to our marriage and reconciliation. I don't won't to enable her. Do I have to? Is that part of the deal? I don't won't to be a martyr, is that what I need to do to do everything I can? AAAAAgh!<BR>If not Plan B, how do i continue Plan A? What do I re: her seeing OM. He will weaken. My job is suffering, I teach elem school and am barely maintaining. I want to be able to give more of myself to my students, my sons, myself. <P>

Hi I haven't been here for quite some time but I'm back now and your scenario isn't too different from my own except to say for me it is my spouse. Another fine point is that he does love me but given what he chooses to do I have no choice but to question his concept of love. So as far as that goes, he might as well not love me and my life's direction would be far more clear. One other fine point to make is that where I live, my husband is allowed more than one wife and nearly did so a year ago. So like your wife wanting another, so did my husband.<P>I was following marriage builders guidance for years and in my situation found that it is good advice for me to remain in good graces. However, it really lacked the personal attention I needed for my own ability to cope each day. I had to turn elsewhere and in doing so found the strength I needed to to move on with my life.<P>I appreciate the position you are in. I feel I know all too well how much it hurts. I, like you, did my best to Plan A with a few more LBs than you are admitting to. Shame on me but sorry, I can't be superhuman. I'd like to see any spouse not LB at least once a day when faced with the possiblity of spouse taking a new wife (or husband) and having a legal threesome. LBs come up often but in my opinion were and are well deserved. A person can only take so much.<P>Having said that, I have learned that whether I Plan A or not, he is who he is. And your wife is who she is. And if they want don't want to commit to working things out, or think they are committing but not giving it their all, then we have to accept that. As hard a bullet as it is to bite, it's the truth. You can't make someone be in a relationship they aren't interested in.<P>I dont' know how long you've been going through this, looks like 6 months, give or take. I've been enduring this on and off again for over six years. And I'll tell you, Plan A doesn't work just because you give it more time. That's just my opinion though. <P>I'm not suggesting a divorce. I do suggest that you not worry about her and you get your own life in order. By that I mean, even if she comes back to you, she has turned your heart inside out. And having her lay next to you, even wanting you, isn't going to change that. You won't forget for a very long time what she has said to you regarding this other man. And whether she comes back or not, you have to live with it without obsessing about it. For your sons, your students, but mostly, just for you.<P>There are Life Strategies that I think would help you. I dont' feel MB is the place for such a thing. MB is for two people committed to making things work. When one pulls away, MB leaves the committed guy hanging lose dangling like the tail on a kite. That's how I felt. And when I got to that spot, which lasted for years, MB wasn't of help to me. It kept telling me how to give him what he wants when what he needed was a swift kick you know where.<P>I'm not putting MB down but your situation sounds so similar to mine and though I think this forum can help you to cope by having a friend to share it with and vent your feelings to, it doesn't have the tools for what it seems you need most. Which is to put your life in order.<P>I'm half way through such a book and it has already turned my life, I feel, on the right path. It will be a hard road to walk but I'm ready. <P>However...I know I have already done everything I possibly could to save this marriage. And I mean everything. (Okay, except for those weekly and sometimes daily LBs) but LBs are not what is hurting this marriage. It's him, and he alone. I refuse to take anymore responsibility. <P>Please figure out for yourself what you want to do with your life. Not what if she does this or that but what is it you want...what has gone wrong, how can YOU make a difference for tomorrow. It could help your marital problems but more importantly, I hope it helps you. Because if you don't learn to live with the reality she has thrown at you, all the Plan A in the world isn't going to bring you back to a happy place, even if she comes to her senses.<P>Time will help and six months reallly isn't enough time for the kind of pain you are enduring. But good advice helps to. Ideas on how to sort through your troubles and ask some hard questions of yourself...that helps too. If you find it here, please let me know. I've yet to find such information.<P>At this point in time, my H and I have separated twice temporarily and now he will move out to his own apartment, long term. As he now figures out his Life Strategies, with a book and workbook I found, I too will continue to read on. He is hoping to reunite. It would be nice but I don't see it happening. I'm preparing for divorce.<P>I wish you luck. It's very hurtful and takes so long to work through it. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I'm not through it yet. I hope yours doesn't take nearly so long.

2afault,<P>The duration one can stay in Plan A varies by the individual...<P>If your Plan A efforts are hurting you...<BR>...then its time to consider Plan B.<P>I'm don't think the idea of trial separations as a good thing...<BR>...in general (abusive situations are a big exception)<P>I'd rather see a purer Plan B... as opposed to a trial separation...<BR>Plan B still has the basics that...<BR>1. you love your spouse<BR>2. <B>you're maried</B><BR>3. finality in the end (avoid the "fence-sitting" scenario)<P>The trail separation says..<BR>1. your love can be abandoned...<BR>2. you're living as singles<BR>3. there is no finality<P>If you have an ability to provide for your family (kids in particular)...<BR>...you may need a quicker Plan B.<P>Make sure you're talking to your kids...<BR>...they are being hurt the most here...<BR>...even if you don't see it.<P>Re-establish your faith links again...<BR>...you'll find a support system there like no other!<P>My prayers to you.<P> <P>Jim

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Separated & Confused:<BR><B>Hi I haven't been here for quite some time but I'm back now and your scenario isn't too different from my own except to say for me it is my spouse. Another fine point is that he does love me but given what he chooses to do I have no choice but to question his concept of love. So as far as that goes, he might as well not love me and my life's direction would be far more clear. One other fine point to make is that where I live, my husband is allowed more than one wife and nearly did so a year ago. So like your wife wanting another, so did my husband.<P>I was following marriage builders guidance for years and in my situation found that it is good advice for me to remain in good graces. However, it really lacked the personal attention I needed for my own ability to cope each day. I had to turn elsewhere and in doing so found the strength I needed to to move on with my life.<P>I appreciate the position you are in. I feel I know all too well how much it hurts. I, like you, did my best to Plan A with a few more LBs than you are admitting to. Shame on me but sorry, I can't be superhuman. I'd like to see any spouse not LB at least once a day when faced with the possiblity of spouse taking a new wife (or husband) and having a legal threesome. LBs come up often but in my opinion were and are well deserved. A person can only take so much.<P>Having said that, I have learned that whether I Plan A or not, he is who he is. And your wife is who she is. And if they want don't want to commit to working things out, or think they are committing but not giving it their all, then we have to accept that. As hard a bullet as it is to bite, it's the truth. You can't make someone be in a relationship they aren't interested in.<P>I dont' know how long you've been going through this, looks like 6 months, give or take. I've been enduring this on and off again for over six years. And I'll tell you, Plan A doesn't work just because you give it more time. That's just my opinion though. <P>I'm not suggesting a divorce. I do suggest that you not worry about her and you get your own life in order. By that I mean, even if she comes back to you, she has turned your heart inside out. And having her lay next to you, even wanting you, isn't going to change that. You won't forget for a very long time what she has said to you regarding this other man. And whether she comes back or not, you have to live with it without obsessing about it. For your sons, your students, but mostly, just for you.<P>There are Life Strategies that I think would help you. I dont' feel MB is the place for such a thing. MB is for two people committed to making things work. When one pulls away, MB leaves the committed guy hanging lose dangling like the tail on a kite. That's how I felt. And when I got to that spot, which lasted for years, MB wasn't of help to me. It kept telling me how to give him what he wants when what he needed was a swift kick you know where.<P>I'm not putting MB down but your situation sounds so similar to mine and though I think this forum can help you to cope by having a friend to share it with and vent your feelings to, it doesn't have the tools for what it seems you need most. Which is to put your life in order.<P>I'm half way through such a book and it has already turned my life, I feel, on the right path. It will be a hard road to walk but I'm ready. <P>However...I know I have already done everything I possibly could to save this marriage. And I mean everything. (Okay, except for those weekly and sometimes daily LBs) but LBs are not what is hurting this marriage. It's him, and he alone. I refuse to take anymore responsibility. <P>Please figure out for yourself what you want to do with your life. Not what if she does this or that but what is it you want...what has gone wrong, how can YOU make a difference for tomorrow. It could help your marital problems but more importantly, I hope it helps you. Because if you don't learn to live with the reality she has thrown at you, all the Plan A in the world isn't going to bring you back to a happy place, even if she comes to her senses.<P>Time will help and six months reallly isn't enough time for the kind of pain you are enduring. But good advice helps to. Ideas on how to sort through your troubles and ask some hard questions of yourself...that helps too. If you find it here, please let me know. I've yet to find such information.<P>At this point in time, my H and I have separated twice temporarily and now he will move out to his own apartment, long term. As he now figures out his Life Strategies, with a book and workbook I found, I too will continue to read on. He is hoping to reunite. It would be nice but I don't see it happening. I'm preparing for divorce.<P>I wish you luck. It's very hurtful and takes so long to work through it. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I'm not through it yet. I hope yours doesn't take nearly so long. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for your response and Jim, thank you too. This is the hardest thing I've ever been through.<P>It's so hard to figure out if Plan A is beginning to hurt me or if this is just a natural flow of hurt that's part of the process. Thanks for encouraging me to work on myself, and build on what I have learned and will learn through this. If you don't mind sharing, and since you searched for such a long time for a "Life Strategies" resource, could you post the name of the book/workbook.<P>WS and I have shared alot of emotions this weekend so far. I shared my hurt and thoughts, fears of seperation and she has shared how sorry she is to have hurt me so. We have counseling Monday night, and scheduled another for Wed. night so alot may come out then or at least we could possibly get some direction, clarity, or guidance along the seperation route. Our counselor may not even go along with, or accept a trial seperation/Plan B. Who knows, she was non-committal when we scheduled the add'l night. Our counselor practices the Imago Therapy, which has as a premise the committment of both people to want to reconcile. WS is not thereand hasn't been.<P>This is a very dream-like state. I just want to wake up from it sometimes. This morning was one of talking, sharing, crying, touching which led to intercourse, and then as we were lying there afterwards she told me she was going to look at a place to live tomorrow. A carriage house, on a 700-acre farm. $575/mth plus utilities. Savings will be gone shortly. Rest of day filled with grief, emotions, setting up for younger son's b-day party, touching, hugging, holding. She's downstairs reading "Beyond CoDependency" and I'm up here. <P>She's going, and I'm searching for what to do. I can't see dating her while she explores a relationship with OM. Can I wait it out much longer for her to find clarity of mind. She says she needs space. She's told me twice this weekend that there's a glimmer of hope for us. I asked (possible LB) what the degree of hope she was holding for a future relationship with OM after his divorce goes through in Sept/Oct.<P>She also shared, when I told her I had checked out some resouces on divorce, finances, and telling the kids that she was scared of divorce. She should be. I know this is getting long, sorry.<P>One positive note. She did share that when we do seperate she will tell the kids that she just doesn't know if she can remain married. I'm glad, because before she had stated that she just wanted to tell them that we were having trouble settling our differences. I'd like to tell them she is in love with another man, but at least she's willing to be honest enough to tell them it's her that wants out.<P>Plan B or not? Hurt and pain both ways. I do not want to enable her to go off on her own and have a relationship. I need to protect myself and preserve myself. <BR> <BR>Clarity of Mind, what a wonderful state of being. Thanks.<BR>

The book you're looking for is <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786884592" TARGET=_blank>Life Strategies : Doing What Works, Doing What Matters</A>...<P>Talk now to your kids...<BR>...Look at <B>Nellie</B>'s post too... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002419.html" TARGET=_blank>You should NOT "accept" things that are wrong </A>!<P>If you think Plan B is needed...<BR>...check with the Harley's first...<BR>...and reread the post references in my first reply here...<BR>...<B>and</B> draft a Plan B letter...<BR>......it's the first step of Plan B<P>My love to you...<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited March 17, 2001).]