For a little background: D-Day was in late October, 2000. Been in Plan A since December. Wished I'd known about this site right away! W. verbally agreed to no contact but I am reasonably sure that there is almost daily contact. Definately an EA and I suspect it has become a PA. <P>The weeks have been almost predictable. I discover clues to the A. continuing, I confront her about whatever it is (while avoiding LB's), she gets angry, the relationship gets better for several days, then the cycle repeats itself. I am fairly sure she has feeling of love and commitment to both of us and I really do think she would have left me by now if she had wanted to. I have tried my best to figure out what she is missing in her life and she either says she doesn't know, or will not try to figure that out. The fog is very thick! She used to say she would never cheat on me because she's too stubborn. Now that is being used against me.<P>Someone posted a link to the Relationship Institute with a good article on EA's. I think I'm dealing with the dreaded "soulmate" relationship. The OM has done his best to shower her with attention, gifts and helpful hints on pulling this off (most recently, a separate cell phone - haven't brought this up yet). She has only admitted to a very small part, that she is confused and does have feelings for him. I guess it's not that important to her that she will never be able to trust him!<P>To my point: We are approaching the 6 month mark. Can anyone offer what turned the tide in their favor? I have found the WS's here to be helpful with their insight too.<P>Thanks'<BR>MM/Ifeelstupid.<BR>

MM,<P>Well, I guess my wife continued her A intermittantly for about 3 months after D-Day, while telling me it was over.<P>I'm sure that my Plan A helped, but I really think it was two things that ended it. First, her A was with someone at her job and she got fired, so no more daily contact. Second, she wanted to leave me for him, but he didn't want to leave his family or make any real commitment to her. His attitude became a real lovebuster to her.<P>I think this is basically what Dr. Harley says: a consistent Plan A will be noticed and will make it seem desirable for your spouse to work on the marriage <B>after</B> the affair falls apart, as it usually does. Some spouses will continue to vacillate indefinitely, letting both their spouse and the OP meet their ENs. Those are the cases that eventually need to go to Plan B. I say "eventually" because I'm not saying that you need to do that yet.<P>What Plan B does, is first allow you to preserve some love for your spouse. Second, it is a reality check for the WS. They no longer get some of their ENs met by the BS and the affair usually falls apart under the stress of trying to meet <B>all</B> the WS's ENs. Maybe you're familiar with this, as it sounds like you've been here awhile. It never hurts to reread the concepts, books, and articles, though.<P>What about the OM--is he married? If so, does his wife know? If not it may or may not be a good idea to tell--this one gets debated a lot. How about your Plan A--do you think you have her ENs accurately targeted? Have you eliminated lovebusters? Remember that these are defined by your spouse, not by you.<P>That's about all the ideas I have right now.<P>Hope you keep posting.<P>Steve

Thank you Steve...OM is single/divorced. He was nothing to loose here. I have confronted him on several occasions. I feel pretty sure he's been down this road before with the things that have happened. That hasn't helped. My W. & I have been married for 9 years. I have tried to be a good husband and I think I still am. I think we both should have been more honest about each other though. I tend to be the doormat. Don't feel to the Plan B point yet. The frustrating thing is that she does put an effort into the marriage for a while, but it's almost like she gets brainwashed by his charm, or whatever it is. I wished she would consider MC...says absolutely no way. We have been struggling financially so I haven't gone yet either. That is another strike against me - he's got money. I still have her so I'm nowhere near giving up. <P>Those of you who have a WS and they have confessed to you: count that as a big positive.

What a week its been so far. This past weekend, I read my W some info on EA's from SAA and threads. She replied that those were good acticles, but that it didn't describe her/our situation. Later that day, the hang-up phone calls began (as is typical for a weekend for us), and I told her I KNEW it was the OM. She KNEW it wasn't. I asked her why she would have 2 cellular phones. She didn't know what I was talking about until I produced them. She finally says "OK, OK", but really didn't admit to anything. Again, I asked if this was an EA and she admitted that, but "its not like you think". She also admitted that it must end. I have asked her about this every day since. She has shown signs of withdrawl but is unwilling to discuss anything related to the A.<P>I have done my best to Plan A and will continue to improve as a husband - it really is a life-long plan. Maybe to answer my own question: our situation seemed to improve when I stopped being submissive to her every wish and whim and started to work on myself. It almost goes against my very nature, I have given up much (myself) to try and please her. I don't think that works. I couldn't find the thread that reinforced that idea, but thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ifeelstupid:<BR><B><BR>She replied that those were good acticles, but that it didn't describe her/our situation.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Silly you! Your WS is different from everyone else in the world, and not subject to the same rules. They (WS's) all are.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>She has shown signs of withdrawl but is unwilling to discuss anything related to the A.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Withdrawal as in depression from ending the A (which you indicate you think is still going on), or being in withdrawal from you?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>our situation seemed to improve when I stopped being submissive to her every wish and whim and started to work on myself. It almost goes against my very nature, I have given up much (myself) to try and please her.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Neediness and weakness tend to not be attractive, especially to a withdrawn spouse feeling critical toward you. You want to be strong and able to be independent, yet also loving. Being willing to meet ENs and avoid lovebusters is not the same as being a doormat. However, not being a doormat is not the same as saying that you can control her.<P>So how is her responsiveness to your Plan A? Is she letting you meet some of her ENs or just tolerating you? How about avoiding lovebusting? Has she been willing to discuss how you're doing on these things? Don't worry about your ENs unless she indicates a desire to meet them. Instead you could ask her about ENs and lovebusters in the context of learning to be a better husband.<P>Steve<BR>

My W. has been depressed this week ("I need a new life..."). I replied with a gentle I love you, to which she added "I wished you didn't". So, again, I am not clear on where we stand (D-Day was Oct. 22, 2000). I try to focus on meeting her EN's but she usually seems to get frustrated with this. Whenever I ask for feedback on how I'm doing she says "fine". There just seems to be areas (of her needs) that she will not explore. I have been re-reading SAA and the acticles relating to EN's (thanks). You are right in pointing out how unattractive neediness is. It's an area that deserves my full attention. My biggest problem has been to overcome that. I had spent a couple months without the help of MB and my reaction from the start was wrong. I did my share of whining, and lovebusting - not too many angry outbursts though. I have had no experience with A's before and it was so completely unexpected. <P>She knows that I am a decent man and faithful friend and husband. I am a good listener and don't get mad or judgemental whenever she confides in me. I think sometimes her depression comes from knowing the OM isn't good husband material.<P>An update...had lunch together and a rare heart-to-heart talk. I had seen the OM looking for her (W. and I work at the same place). Always makes me "touchy". We were able to discuss our situation calmly and without any LBing. She says she would like to move out, if we didn't have our college-age son to consider. She remarked that we were both unhappy. This wasn't what I wanted to hear. I asked how I was doing on Plan A and as a husband. That got the ball rolling.<P><BR>She says that she just wants to feel like her old self again. This is better. I stated how I felt confident we could rebuilt our love for each other and have a better relationship than before. I feel lucky I was able to find this site and apply these principles. All it takes is at least a willingness to try. I really hope we can now move on to recovery. She honestly seems different this afternoon.<p>[This message has been edited by Ifeelstupid (edited April 27, 2001).]

Still working at this. W & I have had many heart-to-heart talks this past week. Progress? At one point, she denies much of what she has admitted to me so far. How's that? Yesterday, I came across a "talking" keychain and it had his voice on it ("I love you...forever"). Yuck! I calmly asked about it. She now says she takes full responsibility for this whole mess but adds that it isn't even about the OM. She's says part of the problem is that she sees me more as a good friend instead of a marriage partner. I suppose this means she wishes she had more attraction to me. I just can't get her to open up. She gave the cell phone back to him (which contradicts her claim of no contact again), and she said she will try to figure out what her EN's are. She's been very closed up the past couple of days. <P>I'm hoping to have some kind of breakthru soon. <p>[This message has been edited by Ifeelstupid (edited May 04, 2001).]

Hi Ifeelstupid,<P>As for that name, please don't. Most of us have been pretty stupid (and WSs almost always are, as well), but we aren't going to stay there .<P>Here's a<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>link</A> to a good post on Plan A by NSR (Jim), which might be useful reinforcement to what you've learned. As for the hopes of a quick breakthrough, this stuff just takes time. You and your wife have probably worked unwittingly to screw up your relationship for years, so it's normal to take some months to have things get better.<P>Since you've been trying for six months or so, you may be seeing the start of changes on her part. Just relax and keep the pressure off, and keep focused on meeting her needs and helping her to feel safe with you. Sorry, that's about the best advice I have at the moment.<P>In addition to reading the Harley books and articles, reading the other forums, like GQII (General Questions II) is a good idea. More people post there, and you might get some further ideas there.<P>Best wishes,<P>Steve<P>

Well, this week so far, has been the best one we've had in weeks - maybe months. Over the weekend, we had our usual hang-up phone calls. This time, W. acknowledged that it was probably OM. He either hasn't been "told", or has ignored her request for no contact. That has been an issue with us.<BR>From there, I asked her if we could please discuss this. She complained about how tired she felt, so we agreed to wait until morning. We went through Plan A and the 10 EN's. She is still having trouble figuring out what EN's I have not been meeting. <P>She agreed to spend time trying to define what is missing in her life and write them down. I assured her that my Plan A is a blueprint for a lifetime of improvement as her husband, not a quick fix to win her over. She seems interested with how much homework I've done. In the meantime, the biggest thing she's brought up is my lack of spontaneity in our marriage: how I used to do little things for her when she was down, or give her a flower or card "just because". She's right on the not being very spontaneous, but I've continued to do the little things including cards, flowers, gifts this entire time. Maybe she's just more open to them now? The fog may be lifting?<P>The affection hasn't returned yet, but I'm patient.

This seems to be a very positive update. Sounds like you're doing all the right things and it's starting to work.<P>Just remember that if conflict occurs it may not be a bad sign unless you are causing it by LBing. The <B>state of conflict</B> lies in between the states of <B>withdrawal</B> and <B>intimacy</B>. I say this because I see a lot of people's emotions going up and down with daily fluctuations in the relationship. Just keep your eyes on the trend rather than short term fluctuations, and stay the same Plan A person. Sounds like you know this and are already doing it, but it doesn't hurt to be reminded.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ifeelstupid:<BR><B><BR>In the meantime, the biggest thing she's brought up is my lack of spontaneity in our marriage: how I used to do little things for her when she was down, or give her a flower or card "just because".<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Since you've been doing this already, maybe taking her to do something you used to enjoy but haven't done in a while would be good. Or maybe picking her up after work and taking her to a motel for a weekend. Might take a little advance work on logistics if you have kids, but could be well worth it, if she'd be open to a romantic weekend with you.<P>Just a thought.<P>Steve<BR>

Thanks Steve. This has been our best week in many, many months. W. is starting to show her old self again, especially with affection and talk of the future. I remain cautiously optimistic I guess, but mostly optimistic. It's ironic you mentioned a motel - she brought that up at lunch today! <P>She has also been sharing more of her inner thoughts lately. It is a good indicator that it's truly over with the OM (one way I could tell she was still having contact was the complete lack of her sharing anything emotionally). She could give me complete details of her day, but never much about how she FELT. It's been said that an EA is damaging because we only have so much emotional energy to go around. Make sense? She asked me last night if I had ever had the "7 year itch" (not really). She blames it on The Change (she's 42). Could be part of it too. She insists that it was not a PA (that seems important to her that I believe her with this - she says she was raised better than that). It doesn't matter to me, aside from STD's. I already felt violated not to mention all the deception etc. that had been going on. <P>Anyway, firmly entrenched in my Plan A. It has been working, although we may well expect set backs to occur. I saw the OM today again, and that usually means he was looking for her. I resisted the urge to follow him. His pursuit of her has been unrelenting and we may need to consider an O.P. if it continues. I am planning on re-reading the stages of recovery as you have indicted.<P>Hoping for a good weekend...<P>IFS/MM

It is so difficult to avoid LB's! We were doing so well this past week and a half. W finally started to open up. Well, I set us back the other day. She had seemed close to her "old self" except for Tuesday when she was very distant. This was her personality for the previous 6 months. She had received a couple mysterious gifts and I proceeded to snoop in her purse. There, I found a number of gifts (confirmed to be from the OM) still there. I began to wonder if maybe she either saw him again or that she wasn't ready for the closure of their A. Why would she still have these items? Anyway, I asked - no she hadn't seen or heard from him in the past few weeks. She gets upset for my asking. I calmly say that she needs to be very open with me about this. W never did give me specifics on the when or where of the "no contact" was given. I really have started to wonder if it hadn't. <P>We were doing so much better up until now. Now she has given me more denial too - doesn't even feel she crossed the line - an A is an A only if physical (although she admits the OM did cross the line). Have to re-assess Plan A, and go back whole-hearted again.<P>She remarked that she wonders if this will ever get better and gosh, I'm starting to think that way too. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Ifeelstupid (edited May 17, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ifeelstupid:<BR><B><BR>She remarked that she wonders if this will ever get better and gosh, I'm starting to think that way too. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Keeping your eye on the long-term trend and not being too affected by daily ups and downs is a big Plan A challenge for most.<P>If you start to get disheartened it might be a good time to consider some MB counseling before you get too worn out. Posting on GQII might be worth trying also, as a lot more people read there.<P>Hopefully, you're having a good weekend now.<P>Steve<P>

Thanks Steve...we had a decent weekend. No hang-up phone calls either! I had to sit W down Sunday (Cold Shoulder for 4 days) and had her hear me out. Re-affirmed my Plan A to her and we tried to address the meeting her most important EN's. She is still reluctant to help me here. I am doing my best to show her that I'm not obsessed with the A anymore and that she can call it whatever she wants. Gonna learn to handle my triggers better. Like maybe a long walk? I wished we had the money for counselling. I'm very open to the idea. W has bouts of depression herself and there have been times that I've wondered if it was bipolar.

You might want to check with human resourses at work. Many companies have plans that will provide you with no charge counseling available, but it may not be widely advertised. Also, if you have insurance, use it, it may help cover cost of counseling, and at the very least anti-depressants for you or your wife or both as needed.<P>If you call around to counselors you will find that many have a sliding scale or will be wiling to work with you on cost if you are upfront about your situation financially. Our counselor is only charging us $40- less than half his normal cost and he doesn't normally do sliding scale, but says he will take on a certain number of patients at a reduced fee if cicumstances permit, he is not alone.<P>My husband had his 3rd EA which turned into the only PA and his moving out this last spring for a few weeks. I know just how hard it is and all the denial that they are doing anything wrong. It took my husband actually moving out and having sex with her to realize he wasn't where he needed to be and come back a changed man. If I had known about Plan A and this site then though, maybe I could have made it work out differently, I did alot of LB'ing in my frustration and hurt. Keep up the good work, you are handling it great from he sounds of it! Someday I hope she will realize she is a very lucky woman indeed.<P>

Thanks ScaredinNY...Still trying my best each day, one at a time. I think one of my problems is that my W does not recognize an EA as infidelity at all. I guess she can call it whatever is convenient at the time. It doesn't change anything. This is starting to really wear me down. We were talking yesterday and I mentioned considering anti-depressants to help my focus and energy level (to meet her EN's). My work has been non-stop busy for the last month and between work stresses and this...(sigh)...writing helps me.