I've been married for 22 yrs. My H has had an EA (PA?) Although D-Day was 10 mos. ago, we've been struggling because of his denial. Within days of D-day, he swore he ended his talks with OW (who was "just a friend). 4 mos. later, I found out she had given him a cell phone 1-1/2 yrs. ago and they continued to talk on a daily basis.<P>My H refuses to admit he had an A; he insists it was just a friendship, even though they talked 20 times a day... everyday. He gave the phone back to her 6 mos. ago, but I know she continued to contact him (even though he denies it).<P>During the A, he shut me out even though I tried everything to get him to talk with me. He said it was a MLC and he would get over it. He refused my help and would become irate over my concern.<P>I am attempting to implement Plan A, but don't know how to meet my H's EN, when I don't know what they are. I feel that I am a big part of his unhappiness, but he denies it. He has told me many lies and has a difficult time being honest with me. He refuses to discuss any aspect of his A and just wants to get on with his life. I feel I am bending over backwards to accommodate him and his feelings, but feel it should be a 2 way street. He is making great strides in trying to build our future, but how can we have a future based on lies and deception?<P>Does anyone have any advice? BTW, we've tried counseling, but he lied there too!<P>I'm emotionally torn...

FS my heart goes out to you.<BR>The lies always make things so much worse, and unfortunately lies are such a ground base in affairs. How could it not be so?... the people involved know they are not running for the best citizen award, they need to justify their actions even if only for themselves.<P>Now on to your case <BR>FOrget about the lies for a second - unfortunately they are part of what affairs are - have you in these 10 months seen in your h's actions - not words - any encouraging signs that he is really commited to rebuilding with you? NO matter how small they are?<P>If so, and you really want to try and work on this marriage , do me a favour. Try to concentrate on recovery. Not the affair, not on the lies, not on continuing contact.<BR>My h's affair ended in October, she kept calling until March the next year. DId he hang up the phone on her? No, at least not at the beginning. As scary as this was, it didn't mean that the affair was still going on, just that he - ironically - felt responsible for hurting her and was pretending to himself that they could be just friends. I say ironically since he never felt responsible for hurting me while he was having an affair with her, but that's beside the point <P>Well, now let's focus on something else: his emotional needs. Well you certainly don't have a crystal ball to tell you what they are, as much as he might like the idea.<BR>Mine too thought it was so easy to see what they were there was no need to verbalize them. The problem is that often we tend to fulfill the needs that are most important to us, when those same needs are not even close to important to theother person.If communication is not working that well, and he isn't able to tell you what his needs are, you will have to use the trial and error technique But be careful though, you need to pay a lot of attention. While the affair was going on and even right after it ended, my h seemed to have a problem with me meeting his needs. It was like he felt guilty if he enjoyed something I did.SO he would either refuse it or if he had no choice, accept it but act like he was upset at the world and closer galaxies- which of course included me.<P>It is important that during this process you do make sure that you create some quiet relaxing time to yourself. Doing something that soothes you and sotps you thinking about what's happening. For me, reading, drawing and playing music worked quite well - the music part worked even better on the guy that came to tune the piano after I was done with it - but seriously, it is very important that you have such time to yourself. Your self confidence needs a boost, so on top of that try to do something for yourself alone. I don't know, a few new dresses and an haircut also worked for me.<P>If your h is like mine. A very close person that has trouble verbalizing his thoughts and feeling, you might need to try the non verbal approach.How about writing? It's easier on both because #1 you don't have to be thinking that he is lying while the conversation is going on. #2 he will not have to be thinking on how to defend himself while you're talking thus missing important points. #3it can be done without both of you present, #4 writing is a much safer medium because the person realized that what is written can be crossed of or erased, something that can't happen in a conversation.<P>ANd while we're talking about writing, why not boost your positive feeling by creating a scrap book with all the positive things happening. Maybe writing about a day that went really well. Paste a ticket or a bill from someplace where you went together... a picture just positive stuff.<P>HOw's your together time? try to create some. NOt time where you will be talking about the affair.<BR>Time were you're really talking about yourselves, or the things you enjoy or share. A pleasant time, where no guilt or recrimination is present. <BR>If that is difficult for you to achieve here's an incentive: how would you feel about continuing visiting someone who every time you visited would circle you with questions, and talked only about things that you weren't so proud about, and pushed you to say things you felt you were not ready to say?<BR>Now visualise the other side. Visiting someone that no matter how negative was your last visit, treated you with caring and courtesy, choose neutral conversation so as not to reenter conflict. Made you feel confortable and peaceful/<BR>WHIch person would you rather visit on a regular basis?<P>Well I already talked to much. Old timers that know me remember this as my trademark <BR>I hope I was able to help in some way, and don't hesitate to ask if you need clarification on something or just have more questions.<BR>Many hugs<BR>Kat<P><P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"

I'm the BS.<P>After d-day, I went to the internet to find some info on infidelity and found this site. I read it as fast as I can and learned about EN. Amazingly enough, I was fortunate to discover the EN I wasn't providing to my W. When we talked about it together, she agreed that I was lacking in this area. I of course found some EN she wasn't meeting and she again agreed. <P>I would think ENs are standard for everyone (give or take). Read them all and see for yourself where you might need to focus and go with that. While you can't read your spouses' mind, you know what you have and have not been doing in your marriage. It was an eyeopener to me, I had no idea I wasn't providing these things, neither did my W.<P>It does appear to be workin quite well. Try this out, it's bette than nothing at all.<P>Kepping a stiff upper lip,<BR>Scarlet Pumpernickle

Thank you for your advice and kind words of encouragement, Katb. Sounds like my H and yours could be twins! :-(<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I say ironically since he never felt responsible for hurting me while he was having an affair with her<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How do you get past that hurt? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>have you in these 10 months seen in your h's actions - not words - any encouraging signs that he is really commited to rebuilding with you? NO matter how small they are?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From D-Day on, life has been like living on a roller coaster. He would profess his love for me, go to counseling (with and w/out me, deny any contact w/ OW, and tell me how hard he was trying to rebuild our lives. The first 4 mos. were like living with Jekyll and Hyde. I never knew what to expect from one moment to the next. He began to change a bit in Oct. (after giving her back her phone), but it was still touch and go for quite some time. He began taking more of an interest in the house and in me, but it seemed like he was constantly on the defensive even though we did not discuss the A.<P>I WILL say that lately, he is doing everything in his power to try to rebuild our marriage and my trust. (Everything but discuss his EN, that is). I have asked him where I went wrong, what was he getting from OW that he wasn't getting from me, what does he need / want from me? He insists it's not me....it's him. He says he loves me just the way I am and wouldn't change a thing. If he doesn't want any changes, why did he consort with her, which changed everything?<P>I am trying to concentrate on the recovery and the positive things, but it's extremely hard to discount all the lies and the betrayal, especially since he was so extremely cruel and hostile toward me because of her.<P>FYI, the A is over, but I'm not sure it was his choice or God's since the OW died last month. Even though H is really trying, I can't help wondering if he's with me because he wants to be or because I'm the only one left.<P>He feels very badly for the abuse and hostility he showed me and says he is trying to make up for it. From time to time, the hostility still shows it's ugly head, which makes me uneasy and uncertain.<P>How does one forget the lies yet practice "The Rule of Honesty for a Successful Marriage" or the "Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery". Both encourage TOTAL honesty. Am I really stupid, confused or am I confusing the issue?<P>Our time together is good. We have fun and enjoy each other's company; however, the ?'s always seem to hover in the back of my mind. I feel like such a hypocrite! :-(<P>Thanks again for all your help, Katb. You have given me another perspective on a few things and have given me courage, knowing I am not alone. This is very humiliating for all of us.<P>Many hugs to you!<BR>CFS

Thank you for your input, Scarlet Pumpernickle. I am happy that things are working well for you.<P>To the best of my knowledge and ability, I have attempted to convey all the EN per Dr. Harley's list. It's tough to be affectionate or sexual with someone that pushes you away. It's also difficult to converse with someone that doesn't want to listen or communicate. I have tried my darndest, in the past, but most of my efforts were rejected.<P>Things are going a little better, but I am still very confused and feel myself wanting MY EN be met.....atleast 1/2 way. Is that too much to ask?<P>Thanks again for your help.

delete<p>[This message has been edited by vernon3 (edited May 15, 2001).]

I"m sorry it took me so long to come back to this thread. <BR>WE've been on strike and last week I really caught a bad cold - more like the flu - I was in bed for the last 3 days and bad enought not to even come close to the computer. <BR>ANd that is difficult LOL<P>YOu ask me how we get past the hurt. <BR>Well time of course helps there. TIme and seing that our spouse really is making an effort to work together with us in the rebuilding process.<BR>In the meantime people tend to find strategies to help with that part of the problem.<BR>I can't tell you what will work better with you, but I can point a few things out that might help.<P>But first let me tell you that I think that most things are done by choice, conscient or not.<BR>If you believe in this, then you can make a conscient choice to make the pain fade faster.<P>ANd as I stress in all my posts the first step is to really not concentrate in what happened. - I know, easier said than done -. But it really is important, because many times we are the ones prolonging the pain and hurt, by keeping the affair alive in our minds. Way after the spouse is not even thinking about it anymore, people sometimes press that rewind button and revive the whole thing again, and again.<P>I found that once I realized that I was the one hurting myself, and tried to break the pattern things got much easier. <BR>ALthough I must say I was lucky in the sense that I didn't dweel much on it. I focused on what I wanted to happen from them on more than on what had happened before. But not everybody can separate the two things easily.<P>In any case, an effort was needed to stop that cycle.<BR>what worked for me? At first, when it was still difficult I had to really prevent myself from going there.<BR>I found that getting busy with something would often stop the chain of thoughts quite well. I even used to carry a book around - because when I'm reading I forget everything else - just to use when my mind was starting to play tricks again.<BR>My H helped to by showing is commitment, although like yours he really had trouble talking about what had happened.<BR>The more positive things I could find in our situation, the easier it was to shut thoughts about the affair, or the lies, or any of the negative things that were delaying recovery.<P>Other importanting thing - I found out - was to keep realistic expectations. By doing this, I had less of a chance to feel disapointed. WHich in turn would make it easier to hurt.<BR>I had hight expectations, but felt it was better to let them out gradually,instead of all at the same time. It worked for me.<P>ANd again, as time passes, and we see that things are still on the right track we can feel the pain retreating to a little corner, until what happened doesn't have the power to hurt so deeply anymore.<P>Now if you are asking me if the pain will ever go completely away... I'm not sure. Sometimes I think it does. But if I want to be honest, I have to say that maybe it will always be there. NOt as the big thing it was, but as a dull ache that sometimes comes out . The difference is that now it doesn't affect my life... it's more like a side effect of blue days.<P>I am still quite tired so I'm probably not even making much sense, so I"m going to bed again, and willwrite the rest tomorrow.<BR>Hugs<P>P.S. Vernon, glad I was able to give you a different perspective. <BR>WIll talk to you later, the cold is still here I guess, and I"m falling asleep on the keyboard <BR>HUgs<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>"Each and everyone of us is deserving of a gentle thougth, a kind word and the gift of understanding"