Dear 40 pounds lighter, Please forgive the fact for my problems taking over this topic---I am still wondering how you are o99--I just got back from three weeks out of internet contact; I haven't seen any recent postings from you and I was wondering how you are; any news about the potential health problems? Take good care, octavia99<p>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited May 28, 2001).]

How are you Octavia??<P>How did the trip into the wilds with H go?<P>JL

Just Learning, Thank you so very much for noting my return and asking about things; I thought about the advice from you and others on the MB site while I was out there, and Oh! how I wished I could've logged on from the desert! I am feeling really in need of support right now. I have a long posting under General Questions that pretty much brings things up to date. <P>I am still clinging to sanity, but there have been moments recently when I've felt even worse than I have in the past. What I don't know is what my EXTREME difficulty with maintaining Plan A behavior really means--am I just a rotten person? Or have I truly been hurt too much to get over this? Or am I really starting to lose it and require Plan B to keep from going off the deep end? Please see my reply to the one response I got under General Questions--I think it's the entanglement of the work and personal aspects of our marriage and the OW issue that makes my situation so very complicated.<P>JL, you seem to have a good perspective on the academic world part of this problem and I would like to offer more details in the hopes that you may have even more specific advice, but I am reluctant to be too explicit on the MB, since our field is very small and the work we do gets some publicity...anyone who knows H and me or who knows of us would instantly guess my identity (and I am very worried, probably needlessly, that OW might somehow find out about this and see my postings). Might it be possible for me to email you once or twice? I know some people on the MB do email or instant message, but I imagine the bulk of those logging on want to retain absolute anonymity and I would certainly understand if email contact is not something you feel comfortable with. I just wanted to ask, because--although I have received great advice from everyone who has responded to me--it seems to me that the academic/professional side of my problem is something most people here can't relate to (or maybe I just go on and on for too long and bore them to death !!!). Anyway, thanks again for your help, octavia99

Octavia,<P>I am going off for the long weekend here. I will correspond with you next week. I will consider it. It is not something I normally do, but have done in the past. I will respond to your other post next week if you haven't worked it all out.<P>Plan A is very difficult, but it is mostly about you really. Please reread it. The hard part appears to be that it is so hard to separate what has happened to you with looking at yourself objectively. By the way, Plan A will not get your H out of the A. It is designed for the BS to make home an attractive place to come when the fog clears. But the fog must clear first, then the problems of the marriage can be addressed.<P>It seems that the fog has not cleared for your H. I know you probably have little access right now, but do read His Needs Her Needs if you get a chance.<P>Must go.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear JL, Thank you for responding, hope the holiday weekend was nice in the States. Things are bad here. I actually did allright with Plan A for a little while, but seeing my H act in a cruel, violent and generally nasty manner while I was trying to be objective, nice and calm myself made the few remaining units in my Lovebank flow out so quickly, that I just went numb. I didn't think the BS's love was supposed to dry up so quickly. Then, when a little bit of positive interactions occurred and I felt loving toward him and good about Plan A, bam bam bam, I was hit with three most instances of his lying--first, he pretended to make a phone call to the mobile phone co., actually holding down the hang-up button as he spoke (to throw me off the track about how he's been using up the call units, i.e., talking with the OW long distance), second, hiding his flight arrangments to the capital city and his hotel there (and lying about them), third, lying about and hiding plans to visit a site (with OW) while he's there. When I found out about the third, I phoned his mobile no. and pretended to be her and he fell for it for a second, enough to confirm that he's been chatting regularly with her via the new mobile phone (I know, big LB, but I just can't hold on in the face of this humiliation---they WILL be seen by mutual acquaintances and colleagues there, and though H is now back to insisting on a D, he still doesn't want me to tell anyone about it!) Plus, his offer for the joint work is for me to give it up, or continue as an "employee" of his (which I am not and have never been) forever. I posted under General questions re: BS's who work with WS's with some of that story--but as I said, the academic world makes it even more complicated than I have been able to describe. I also just answered a post under GQ's by GAJ on physical abuse, which, sadly, is also in the brew. I am feeling really hopeless about the marriage and am now trying to think again about the academic side and how I can retain control of my own "intellectual property" and right to continue this work. Thanks again for all your advice and support, octavia99

Octavia,<P>I just have a few moments. But when I read your post, all I could think is "Could a reputable Univ. hire this guy?"<P>I know not very nice. All I can think of is that your H isn't very bright. If it gets out he is dating a student, he wouldn't be able to hire you as an "employee". <P>Aren't affairs and fog just too much. I wonder if it would be appropriate for you to go to the US and leave him there??? If you cannot Plan A with his behavior it is time for Plan B. Perhaps he will think differently when he has to deal with everything as well as no contact with you. It won't stop his affair or running around,but it may give him cause for concern.<P>Something to think about Octavia.<P>I will write more in a few days.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

...<p>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited July 02, 2001).]

Octavia,<P>If you think you are the only one that knows about your H's affair you are very likely wrong. It is a small field you are in, and as you said he isn't a particularly good liar, he has been going around with her, according to your last post. So my guess many people suspect or know of his affair.<P>I would suspect that it isn't uncommon in your field either, given the nature of volunteer work and such. It doesn't make it right, but I would be surprised if field trips are not a relatively common place for affairs.<P>Now what to do? My suggestion reading your last post is do your work, finish your dissertation (for Ph.D. right?) and then make a career decision. You have valuable experience and knowledge and will get more. <P>I will tell you something that you may not want to hear. If you don't go get your own research money, you are condemned to do someone elses research. Some PI's are good at handling people and leading a research program, most are mediocre, and more than a few are just awful. Your H sounds like he is in the latter category. If you feel he isn't then simply ask him why he places himself in this category with you. I would stronly recommend that you begin to consider leading your own projects in the future. Learn as much as you can about the management and running of one, and be prepared when you have the chance to seek your own funding. It is the only way to do the research YOU want to do.<P>Meanwhile, I would back off, set my goal to finish the dissertation, and see what happens. There is no use in working on the marriage or trying to save it as I think you are approaching this. Plan A is not about saving the marriage in a proactive way. It is changing things in your behavior that you feel need changing. It is becoming an attractive alternative to the person your H is having the affair with. You CANNOT change his mind, and you harm yourself by trying.<P>So back off, Plan A is more passive. Focus on yourself internally and professionally. If at the end the affair ends and you still feel love for H then work on rebuilding the marriage. If the love is gone, the you are ready to move on. I know this sounds sort of passive aggressive, but you cannot change your H, you can continue to change yourself and enhance your career future.<P>I think you may find peace in this approach, that is why the Harley's push it. If things become too bad, move back to the States. In a small community such as yours, your work will be known. AS for the stealing of credit, I have a big problem in scientific cirlces with this. I teach my post-docs three simple things:<P>1. Life is a team sport.<P>2. There are no experts in unsolved problems.<P>3. Credit is not a conserved quantity.<P>When you have students, break the tradition and remember these simple little rules. You will be amazed how famous you will become. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

...<P>The three eloquent points you offer at the end of your post are so true--maybe someday he will see this too, and we can achieve our goals together and share the credit, the pride and the happiness that would result. At least now I know I can do it on my own if I must---for a while, thinking about the work made me so sad and despairing, I thought I had lost that forever, too, but I've got it back again and I know I will never give it up. Thankfully, there are wonderful, supportive people (some know about the A, some don't) to whom I can turn for encouragement. And, thank God!!, there's this MB board and people like you!!! Thanks again, octavia99<P><p>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited July 02, 2001).]

Octavia,<P><BR>I would be greatly surprised if Admiration was not your H's #1 or #2 need. I would be surprised if it wasn't high on your list as well. <P>This brings up something very interesting and difficult. It is the concept that credit isn't a conserved quantity. The lack of ability to extend credit can stem from the feeling that "this is a once in a lifetime" situation and "I must make the most of it." This is never true, but more importantly if it is: it will become a bigger event if it is shared.<P>I know this is so hard for people to grasp, but people with original ideas usually don't have JUST ONE. Yet, they act like this is going to be my only chance.<P>So why is this a problem for you? Well, I sense that to some extent you feel the same way as your H. You NEED this project to be spectacular. Your H probably feels the same way. He may indeed realize your talents and how much you have done. Ironically, his affair and this whole mess maybe happening because he is having a "crisis of confidence", not the other way around. You may have inadvertantly fed this crisis because of your own needs.<P>It is worth pondering while in your Plan A. If there is some element of truth to this, then how to change so that you and your H regain your confidence, your sense of team, and your love. It has been my observation that competence is a very admirable trait but it can also be very threatening, a double edged sword.<P>Being a male I often see this in the "feminist" agenda. It is claimed that men are threatened by a competent woman. To that claim, I answer yes. However, men are threatened by competent men as well. The "feminist" have missed a simple but important point. One cannot be capable of being competion and not be view differently than they were when they were not viewed as competion.<P>The real issue is that women need to learn how to be competent and yet not threatening especially to their spouse. Men, have done that. We figured it out with one another and even at home. We have been taught by our fathers, that when at home be incompetent. We are helpless in the kitchen, we are helpless with household chores. Never mind the fact that I was a batchelor into my 30's, maintained a very clean apartment, managed to wear clean well pressed clothing, and can flat out cook. I am never asked to by the way. <P>I am not suggesting you become incompetent. What I am suggesting is that you become aware of your affect on your H. Become aware on how things you do affect him positively and negatively, especially in your professional capacity. I suspect that you are over there running the program while he was at the Univ. teaching caused him some insecurity. His not very well thought out response was infantile: he had an affair and he became THE BOSS. It is actually very normal when someone is threatened. I am sure you have seen it many times yourself.<P>So this long preamble is really telling you to Plan A, but consider that you may be viewed as a threat/competion to your H. I believe that you don't think that, but he has/is having a personal crisis of confidence.<P>Are my ramblings making any sense to you? I have a feeling I am sending mixed messages, but my point is that you need to assess you power (real or preceived) over your H. More importantly realize that you have more than you think and your H is very aware of it and is not confident how it will be used.<P>I am not proposing that you become a lacky, or a "dumb" wife. I am suggesting that your competence and power is a threat although you may not preceive it that way. Think about ways that will let him know you and he are on the same team and he can trust you.<P>One final irony. One of the most amazing things I have learned while reading this site that it often comes out that the wayward spouse doesn't trust the betrayed spouse AFTER THE AFFAIR. My first response is: What is up with that???<BR>After seeing it over and over again for the last two years, I think I have come to some understanding. Our ability to trust others is strongly linked to our ability to trust ourselves.<P>Your H doesn't trust himself and the affair did nothing to enhance his self-image.<P>Some things to think about.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

...<p>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited July 02, 2001).]

Octavia,<P>Your response makes things a bit clearer. I would suggest that you have a talk with your H, tell him a few things about what you feel and what you sense in the relationship. Give him a few things to think about.<P>I am inclined to suggest that you tell him to face a few facts. I don't mean that this should occur in a malicious way. But here is what I "see". He has taken a professorship, he can no longer do all of the things he wants. In the light of the feminist discussion, he cannot have it all. You are becoming "the boss" because you are on site much more than he is. So while you have common career fields and you have common goals, you HAVE CHOSEN DIFFERENT PATHS, right now.<P>It seems to me he needs assurances from you on two things: 1. He is right you are running things more than he is.<P>2. He is wrong you will not steal credit from him.<P>He can come to view you as a very unique asset or he can come to view you as a liability to his personal glory. Here is what I mean.<P>Most Prof. in your field must travel themselves to the site, or they must have a competent, reliable, trustworthy person oversee the site while they follow their primary career choice as a teacher, not a researcher. Too bad, cannot be both. <P>You for right now have chosen the opposite course. You are not a teacher but a researcher. You don't/won't have the comfort of a tenured position. He does. There are trade off's.<P>So here is the deal as I see it. He is married to a very competent person who can indeed oversee the site and manage the research. He can trust you and more you are very emotionally attached to him. Now, from my perspective, other than the loss of sex, having ones spouse as the most trusted and important person in this situation would be the best of all worlds. He can teach with full faith that things will be done right and that proper credit is maintained.<P>I don't think it does you any good to deny the obvious. You do run things around there most of the time because he is gone. YOu are good at it and your really don't need to apologize for this. It is a fact. What he has to come to realize is that this can be a win-win situation for the both of you. BUT it requires two things: 1. He trusts you. 2. You trust him.<P>In all candor, you cannot trust him right now. He doesn't trust you right now. It seems to me that you two need to talk about the issue of trust, why it is lost (his affair, past experiences, and even your profession that you are not running things when you are.) You need to seriously think about Harley's admonition that radical honesty should be used in a marriage.<P>You two need each other. It really is that simple, and it doesn't hurt that at least one of you is in love with the other.<P>I really don't know what to recommend, but I do suggest honesty and an honest discussion in the desert just might be what the doctor ordered. Don't lie to him, don't deny the obvious, but understand that the two of you need to figure out how to maximize three things: His position at the Univ., Your position in the research community including obtaining your Ph.D., and finally the love you had in your marriage and want again.<P>Hope this helps some. Must go. Talk with you next week.<P>God Bless,<P>JL