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Interesting way to look at it.. seems to ring true. And, besides being a distraction, Plan A can actually work.<P>Z<P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

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Octavia,<P>The answer to the last question, is that right now the he is just wanting to have his cake and eat it too. That can change, so don't worry about it.<P>As for Plan A, please remember that it is for YOU, not him. The goal is to provide a better setting for him to return, but it is about YOU and improving yourself if not for this marriage then another. <P>For example, consider what you have learned. You have learned that "fear and greed" are too of the greatest motivators. People "fear" losing things of value to them, and they are 'greedy" for more things that protect what they fear they will lose and for more of what they may lose.<P>This isn't as awful as it may sound. It is what motivates great new inventions, people getting educations to better themselves, taking great personal and professional risks, etc. But it has the down side as well. That much is obvious. <P>You are seeing in your H what will motivate most if not all of your colleagues, and yes even yourself. You are learning how to address these "fears" and "greeds" in a positive way. It seems to me you did well. By the way, none of this means you have to give away the store, but it does allow you to handle people better. <P>I do think that when your H makes a comment such as "You would like that wouldn't you?" You should calmly ask what he means by it. If he says "nothing". Then, kindly say to him or even lean over and kiss him and say, "then please stop, it offends me."<P>Don't let it slide, but don't argue about it. Make it known that you don't like it. If he wants to discuss the issue, use your insights to suggest that while you have intersecting interests they are not overlapping. You two make a good team because of the diverent interests and divergent opportunities.<P>I would also gather together all of the information you will need for your dissertation as soon as possible. That way you can offer to return to the US to work on your dissertation leaving him to run things. If he inquires why, you might suggest that you are not confident in him any longer and you need to finish your PhD as soon as possible.<P>I wouldn't use that approach right now, but you do need to protect yourself and Plan A plus getting finished with your dissertation are good ways to do it.<P>I am glad to hear some progress is being made.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

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Octavia,<P>I wouldn't leave unless he makes you leave. I don't think he can if you are both responsible for the grant performance. I would suggest that you stay until July as planned, gather the information you need for you dissertation and then leave. Come home write your dissertation and simply leave him to worry about everything else.<P>You have not conducted yourself very well. The physical assault was not a good thing to do. I suspect you realize what a hugh mistake that was. Consider how you compare to the OW now. It isn't a good comparison. Further, if this occured in the US you could be charged with spousal abuse. It is something that you really need to address.<P>Now it seems to me that you need to focus on getting your dissertation completed, not your marriage. I think in light of the fact that you find Plan A'ing so hard, that once the latest field trip is completed it is probably Plan B time. I would also consider finding another project to work on when you get your dissertation.<P>It will be awhile before you repair the damage done by his affair and your LB'ing so work on yourself, get your data for your dissertation, and give him space. You know his triggers, you know his weaknesses, and you know that he will have a hard time running things without you, but he will be able to do so. So no need to make any threats.<P>Focus on yourself Octavia and stop the LB's.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dear JL, Again thank you for responding. H had been saying he thought I am not honest about my behavior and log on here only to be told how "great" I am. So I am glad I was honest about yesterday; I read him part of your response and now he is happy about my continuing with the MB approach and is even expressing interest in it himself. I read him the favorable opinion of a WH re: phone counselling with the Harley's and maybe, just maybe, if and when he is ready, he might even try that with me. However, for now...we had a long talk about separation and how, because of the work, it isn't a cut and dried thing for us and he feels, and I am inclined to agree though am not happy about this, that the closest thing to following the MB advice is to go ahead with the Legal Separation after we return to the States.<P>There might be some "cake and eat it too" in his desire for this, but I don't think that's the primary motivation. He seemed quite heartfelt in his saying that he doesn't want to do anything precipitous now, because he doesn't feel clear-minded enough to make any unalterable decisions, but that he needs some kind of break in order that we can start fresh--be it together or apart. I know we need that too now. The work thing really IS complicated. I can't explain it without telling all, but we each really aren't replaceable in this, and we both lose if we don't both participate. But continuing as we are isn't working either.<P>On the one hand, I hate to have anything "legal" done, because it requires reducing our relationship to contractual terms and each of us will need to "protect our interests." But on the other hand, it would be very hard for me to continue to be his wife and look the other way while the A continues. A legal separation gives me some dignity--although he doesn't want anyone to know about it. And, due to finances, etc. and the work out of the country, his plan is as it was last year, he wants us to continue to share the same residence here and in the U.S., just to overlap as little as possible.<P>So, in some ways, it is giving him carte blanche to continue the A, while retaining the veneer of respectability because no one will realize we are legally separated. Yet if I don't agree, he will continue to feel "trapped" and there probably really is no hope. If we do it, I will be forced to focus on my own life--yet as he wants it, I would still be very involved with him. He even suggested we "team teach" a course next term! I am still torn. What do you think about my going along with a legal separation?<P>Re: physical violence in general, I just wanted to clarify earlier references I made to it in other posts, in case my last post gave the wrong impression. The last incident I described was unprovoked by anything physical he did and was wrong, wrong, wrong on my part. I have done this perhaps one or two other times at most. It is still wrong. The other references I made to physical violence were his violence towards me and were never provoked by anything physical I did. The incidents were numerous and much more threatening than what I did, esp. after the A; that doesn't justify what I did, but may put the whole "getting physical" problem in perspective. I think we are both quite serious about putting that awful side of our problems behind us for good. The fact that we can both forgive each other for some really abominable behaviour suggests there is a lot more love left between us than either of us may realize.<P>Ugghh, it's not easy to be frank, but it is necessary to face all this, isn't it? H wants me to contact the lawyers today and make sure we know what we have to do about the settlement. The problem is, the settlement as he wants it is in prose and not quantifiable--basically, that we will continue in almost the same financial and living arrangements as now, but with the label "legally separated." He had left all the figuring and working out of the details to me last time and the lawyers (one office only, he wanted it to be uncontested and "amicable") were left with the impression that neither of us really wanted a divorce or separation.<P>I am feeling rather befuddled now, so I'd better sign off here. Thank you again, octavia99 PS) Oh, I almost forgot to mention: last night, he had already changed his mind about my leaving the country. He did say at that time, well by July he would then know for sure he was making the right decision to get a D. I though then, this is REALLY the final chance I have to stop the LB completely and give him a good Plan A to remember. What with the way the rollercoaster has been running, he may even change his mind about the legal separation if I really do Plan A well. Maybe I need the scare. And Plan A will also help me if we do go through with the separation, I need to prove to myself I am stronger than my emotions. Thanks...<P>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited June 06, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited June 06, 2001).]

Octavia,<P>I am sorry to hear that it has come to the idea of a separation. If it does come to this, make sure your H knows that he can no longer run your life, you will be separated. Also make sure that you will be honest with him and anyone else. There is no need to lie for him. Finally, make sure that you are not short changed in the process either financially, professionally, and/or emotionally.<P>He needs to understand that this isn't going steady and there are consequences for this decision. I would not try and punish him, but I wouldn't protect him either. Plan A or at least apply the Golden Rule to things, but also make sure things are reasonably fair between the two of you.<P>I am always concerned when people have not been given credit for something. Often it is used as reason for carrying on the same behavior with other people. There is no excuse or reason for not being honest and honorable in my book.<P>I wish I had something to tell you that would help or solve the problem, but I don't unfortunately. Just hang in there, get your work done, and do avoid the LB's.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thanks again, JL. First, I appreciate your statement about credit for work; I have always been pleased to note that in our field, the scholars I respect the most, those that one might think would be too "big" to care about up and coming persons, are the very ones that have seemed most supportive, interested and also, generous about crediting others. I believe it's because they are secure in what they have achieved and realize the best scholarship results when ideas are shared freely.<P>About the separation--the thing is, my H doesn't realize he isn't supposed to be running my life. This is and has always been one of the big problems between us. And for the past two years, since he has become a prof., he uses the excuse of being "director" of the work as justification for controlling me. I think we never clarified, way back in the beginning, our different views of partnership in marriage, much less in working together. Thus the "power struggle." This is a pivotal time and I want to handle it as best I can.<P>I know that when something is written up legally, I will be a fool if I don't look out for my own interests. But I know also that this is a "test" for me from my H--will I fight or give in? When he brought the topic of D and separation up last year, he swung from demanding that I let him dictate all terms or lose everything, to pleading with me to "let him be nice." When he was nice, he offered a "settlement" that was basically as if we weren't really getting D at all. I've thought a lot about it and know that if I had been aware of the MB concepts at the time, I could've calmed down and realized it was truly fog speaking, and that I could probably wait it out. Even with my panic at his threats and the resulting LB, etc., he still changed his mind and went from D to separation to reconciliation.<P>I don't really think he's going to change his mind about the legal separation this time--I think he really needs some symbolic break with all our past habits and ways of interacting. Trouble is, I need that too, and I'm afraid the separation as he wants it will keep me in exactly the same situation, i.e., under his control, while giving him the space he truly does need right now. My gut instinct (which so far has been pretty spot-on) tells me he needs this time to think about things and that if we prove that we can relate with each other in a different and better way, he is going to stay with the M. I don't think it's just wishful thinking, he is SO confused now, swings way back and forth on what he wants and how he feels about me (and of course I respond to this and keep the pendulum in motion). He is very much at the end of his rope, but really doesn't want a D now and that is significant I think.<P>What to tell the world? Lying isn't right, but should I maintain a low profile about it as much as is possible? The first time when he wanted a D and wanted it kept a secret, I assumed it was just because of the A being with a student and the professional implications. I know that's a big part of it, but I believe there is also another reason. The first time he demanded I file for D, he didn't want me to tell anyone. I thought, it's not like people aren't going to know when we aren't together any more. Then he outlined his "plan", which was basically continuing to live and work together, just to be divorced and spend less time together. Then he didn't want it at all. So...I think he wanted to know he could have a D if he wanted, he wanted to know he wasn't trapped---but he didn't really want to end the M.<P>If that is the case now, I have to perform an exquisitely delicate balancing act--protecting myself without angering him. I came to the conclusion that, if necessary, I may have to risk being played the fool and losing the work and any "claim" to our marital property, etc., in order to demonstrate to him that I'm not now and have never been in the M for what I can get out of it. I may regret it, but I would regret more not trying my best, this last time, to prove to him that my love for him really is more important than anything and everything else.<P>He wants the legal separation to be a one-year trial, after which we decide either to stay together or D. I contacted the lawyers and asked whether we could draw up an "interim" agreement, with provisions for renegotiating if a D becomes necessary. We'll see what they say.<P>Thank you again for your wisdom and help, I do very much appreciate it, octavia99

Octavia,<P>My feelings about this are simple. Don't make a martyr out of yourself. If it comes to a separation make sure it is a "separation" with stipulations as to how all financial, and physical property will be divided in case of divorce. You need to do this for yourself, and you need to do it so that he can see the consequences of the divorce. <P>I would make sure that he is repsonsible for all of your expenses until you earn your Ph.D. That way if he tries to fire your or sabatouge (sp) you, he will pay financially for a long time. You really cannot separate and not change things substantially. You can do it with "grace" and no LB's but don't under any circumstances give the store away.<P>Next, I do believe that you need to bring to his attention at the appropriate time, that being a Prof. is not the next step to being a deity. In fact, for most people it is the end of the road, with little else of use coming out. They reached their goal, so they start to sit on commitees, they give lectures, but they don't do front line research because they have become "experts" and there are no "experts" in unsolved problems. <P>I am fully aware that many people in academia have been conditioned to think that the Holy Grail is a Professorship, but for a true researcher, it is at best a means to an end. It often is very much a sedative, where new paths, ideas, and areas are never searched, although one would think such freedom and security would lead to precisely that. It doesn't seem to happen.<P>No matter how one views it, gaining a Professorship doesn't give one the right to dictate the marriage relationship.<P>So here is where you have to walk a line. Plan A when you can, prepare to take care of yourself and finish your dissertation. Proceed with the separation as he wishes, but make darn sure everything is sorted out, and I mean everything. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself, but do it in a non-LB way. Be polite, be controled, and be as right as you can be.<P>That is my feelings on this thing.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>Ps: I apologize for my diatribe on the professorship, but I have known so many people to turn into complete jerks once they reached their goal. It astonishes me, that Univ. perpetuate this system.

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