Desperatly need help!<BR>In a few days I'd be divorced (for the whole story look at Roll call index and on Roll call on D/D site.<P>In short I am F, 43, married for 19 years, together for 22, two D (19 and 11). H told me about A in Nov 1999, we separated in March 2000 (on different floors of the same family house), he bought me a new apartment and moved me and YD in July 2000 and divorce would be final these days. <P>He moved OW into our house in Nov 2000 (she is 33, never married, been with a lot of rich men, not employed now for 6 month, his former secretary: H owns a private large company, about 1.5 000 000$ worth, very rich man for our country in Europe)<P>I was very bad in plan A, from Jan 2001 we were in plan B (he didn't want any contact, but I forced some and every time we met I was crying, begging him to come back, screaming, accusing him for the A, and all of that in front of the kids (OD decided to live with him and OW).<P>Then in May, when he told me he filed for divorce and never would want reconciliate, we suddenly started to talk friendly, he started to support me with more money , some works in the apartment...<P>And it seemed it would be at least "polite" divorce, but when he came on Sunday afternoon (to return YD who spent weekend with him) I blew out, exploded like a nuclear bomb, do not ask me why, I do not remember. <BR>The only thing I remember is that I screamed, yelled, cried, begged, wanted to kill myself (again), I told him every ugly word what I could about him , OW, A, I was horrible towards him but , unfortunately, towards and in front of the kids. That was terrible. I hate myself , I know it's unforgetable and unforgivable. My OD said she hated me for the rest of her life, she didn't want to see or hear from me, my YD was stressed and cried a lot but at the end stayed with me.<P>Yesterday and today I sent cell phone messages (SMS) to my OD but she does not answer.<P>Will she ever want to talk to me not to say to come and live with me and YD?<P><BR>Please can anyone advice me , if there IS a way, how to correct what I did?<BR>Did I loose my daughter forever?<BR>Did I loose H forever?<BR>Can I, in some way (how?) plan A after divorce is final with him but also with OD?<BR>Does anyone know about a reconciliation after such ugly scenes and legal divorce?<P>I loved him and only him for my whole life, he was the first and only man in my life and that will stay forever (he knows that). <BR>I never was and acted like that. Did I become psychotic?<BR>Am I in sain , like OD says?<P>Can someone help with an advice, I desperatly love him and miss him and of course my OD.<BR>I realy don't know what or who was in me when I was talking these things to them.<BR>thaks for help, any advice or expirience will help.<P>D

You're not insane, you're hurt, and angry and perfectly justified in feeling those things. He betrayed you, I know I've been stark raving off the wall mad- most of it from deep pain andfear. so first off, you are not psychotic. Though some good meds could help you get your feelings under control, alot of us BS's are on them Prozac is my friend. <P>If it were not for this site I might have spiraled down the same path of destruction even though my WS came home. The feelings would certaily have gone down the toilet if he hadn't. What can you do? You can't go back, only forward, so look in that direction.<P>Can you Plan A, well, yes anytime, sure, but you are going to need to have alot of patience and a good prescription or counselor or both to help you with your feelings, which aren't going to just go away on their own you know?<P>I would suggest taking some time to refocus on you first. If you can honestly heal and be ok in yourself it will be easier to Plan A from the heart to try to win him back if you still want to. This close to the big D, definitely I would say look inside first. <P>There is alot of excellent wisdom here, and alot of support, read alot, I read one story recently of a D couple getting back together, forget where though, sorry.<P>As faras D goes, again, refocusing and healing inside will help you approach her from a better perspective too. Don't lose contact even if you just write and she never returns it. Whatever you can do to try to get through and keep you in her mind.<P>

ScaredInNY:<P>Thank you for care, you are right I am hurt, and angry but my H and OD think and I feel they are right I am insane.<P>The sad truth IS that I can't go back and don't do what I've done but I have no opportunity to even repair the damage at least with OD.<P>I am in fact on counseling the whole last year but like you see with no effect. With or without antideps I feel and do the same horrible things.<P>I sent an e-mail to my OD yesterday trying to explain and appologize to her but she didn't answer. You know the worst thing is that I after all I did , now I am calm and expect from H and OD , to just jump over the words I told them and I am in the same time aware that's not possible.<P>The only wish I have is to be with my whole family together, all 4 of us but it's impossible, my divorce'd be final July 4th.<BR>I don't know how will I go through that day.<P>Thak you for being with me and trying to understand a completely not understandable woman and behaviour.<P>I posted on D/D site so there you can see some more details if you want to.<P>Please how did you succeed in getting your WS out of the fog and after how long time? How long are you married?<P>I would like to have your patence and mind.<BR>Knowing you are left foirever is so hard, being aware you are guilty for destroying your own child and marriage is terrible.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by betrayed and desperate (edited June 13, 2001).]

D,<P>ScaredInNY gave you great advice!<P>I don't think you're going to get any happiness back into your life until you find out why you're doing this and how to go about eliminating these destructive behaviors. <P>You are a kind and caring person, D. These bad behaviors aren't a part of you--you don't need them. <P>I don't think you should have even <B>began</B> starting to Plan A Mio until you got into better counseling to resolve some key issues you have. These being:<P>Your impulsive and "out of control" behaviors...<P>Your lack of patience...<P>Your determination to always put yourself down and only see the negative side of things...<P>You spend way to much energy on all the wrong things. Your poor <B>behavior</B> is what Mio said drove him away--not the good qualities, not your inner self. You need to make changes in yourself first and foremost. Learn how to build up your self esteem. <P>I know you were seeing a counselor. And you said you were on an antidepressant. <P>But I fear both the counselor and the medication were wrong for you. Or maybe it's not so much the counselor but your attitude going into counseling. Maybe you are too close minded or hearted to accept what other people (like your counselor or me or others here on the forum keep trying to tell you. <P>You easily dismiss our advice but never give it a chance or put it into practice. <P>Why would you continue to cling to bad behaviors that cause you to lose everything in life that you love?<P> You have not learned any self-respect of gained any insight to how to change things and find happiness. You are as anxious and depressed as the first day we "met". <P>Can you find a good counselor and get on some medications that will actually work this time?<P>Your situation cannot change until you make changes and improvements within yourself first. Believe me. <B>Everyone's recovery requires this!</B> Even mine. I was also on prozac for a while, D. And I don't think I had to deal with even half of the miseries that you have had. Please get your doctor to prescribe something stronger to keep you from screaming and driving away your loved ones and making people turn away from you. Mio had the affiar but all the rest of the bad things that are happening, you're doing to yourself. Take control of it and make it stop.<P>God bless,<P>L

How to go about eliminating these destructive behaviors?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by betrayed and desperate (edited June 28, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by betrayed and desperate:<BR><B>How to go about eliminating these destructive behaviors?<BR>That IS the main question!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Counseling and the right medication.<BR> <BR><B>"You are a kind and caring person" No I am not...</B><P><B>" Learn how to build up your self esteem". HOW? HOW? </B><P>Counseling...you're going to have to LEARN this.<P><B>"You easily dismiss our advice but never give it a chance or put it into practice" - no, I try but never succeed for a long time, only few days.</B><P>You didn't even wait a few days this time to dismiss all the suggestions I just made. <P>See what I mean? You've been refusing, rejecting, and making excuses for any advice or help I've ever tried to give you, D. It's time you got some counseling to learn how to stop doing this. But I can't twist your arm and make you go. <P><BR><B>"You have not learned any self-respect of gained any insight to how to change things and find happiness. You are as anxious and depressed as the first day we "met". " here you are right, but...</B><P><B>"Mio had the affiar but all the rest of the bad things that are happening, you're doing to yourself" No I am doing all to him and kids and at last to myself, I am not important my kids are.<BR>They have to live knowing how bad is their mother and how awful wife she was so dad had to find another after 20 years of torture.</B><P>You say everything is more important that yourself, that you are nothing. I beg to differ. I think you place too much importance on yourself. I think you have been worshipping yourself and your out of control antics long enough. Time to stop, get control of them and work on making yourself a more responsible adult. A loving (in their eyes) mother. An emotionally healthy human being, capable of giving and receiving love...<P>Stop perpetuating your nightmare, D.<BR> <BR><B>I probably never really loved him nor kids, only myself and that's why God punishes me.</B><P>This is a ridiculous statement, D. If you're "loving" only yourself, why do you blame God for "punishing" you? Wouldn't it be more honest to say you're punishing yourself? God only wants you to love you and for you love and be happy in return. Unfortunately for you, he gave you free will. <P> <P>D, I talk tough with you, but you know why--because we've been friends such a long time, and because I care. <P><B>I want my family back.</B><P>Prove it. Stop making excuses, dammit! Do what you have to do to make this happen. People strive to do it everyday here on this marriage builders forum. We try to make improvements within ourselves. We all want to be happy. We all have goals that other people (even our spouses) say are not going to happen. You aren't any different from the rest of us in that respect. Stop behaving like yours is the most horrible problem in the world. Yes, it is a problem...but you have the power to be happy again. <P>If you really and truly want this to happen, go back into counseling, get on the right meds this time--and give it everything you got. No more excuses.<P>I love you, D, I really do--LISTEN and stop closing your heart to what you are being told here!<P>L

<BR><p>[This message has been edited by betrayed and desperate (edited June 28, 2001).]

I share your pain.<P>You are only 43. Godwilling, you have a good life ahead of you. You must let go of him emotionally and concentrate on rebuilding your self-image. Make a list of all positive things in your life - Your health, apartment, money, children, family members, relationships, profession, aquaintances etc.. Thank God for each one of them everyday.<BR>Make a list of all the things that you will miss from the marriage. See if you can rebuild some of them (say relationship with children). See if you can substitute others with those things that you miss. Try to accept those things that cannot be replaced as God's will for you.<P>You may be looking at your spouse with rose colored glasses. Try to look at him and yourself clearly such that you gain a better understanding. This is essentially Plan B till the time the spouse returns. You do not need to wait for that. Move on with your life. Think in what circumstances you want him back. In what timeframe. Get professional help in all these if you are too depressed to do it alone.<P>Your daughter will forgive you for a few outbursts, but please try to control yourself for your children's sake. Each bad exchange is taken to heart by children as it somehow being their fault. In the fullness of time, your children will understand which parent tried to keep things together for them.<P>I will pray for you.

D, I don't really believe your medication is at the right dose or is the right one for you. You should have better control of your outbursts. It is possible with the right does and/or med. Please talk to your doctor.<P>Yes, we do care here. I am so sorry we did not come here sooner. Maybe much pain could have been avoided. Oh well, no sense in looking back now...<P>S<B>top perpetuating your nightmare, D. That's what I have to do. Maybe now when it is sure that everything is over, divorce is final, no hope for reconciliation, maybe I'll start to live again, the life I didn't choose but the only way. I am afraid of that but it's also the fact that I've been living alone for 1.5 years now and I am alive.</B><P>D, this sounded so positive. I am so proud of you for gaining this perspective! <P>"rolleyes" is another way of saying "Oh, well", "Too bad", <BR>"Ho hum", "Ce la vi", or "Oh, brother!". It's a mild form of good natured sarcasm. It looks like this . See?<P>Like, "Don't hate me because I'm so beautiful." <P>Actually, D. Thanks for the wonderful complements. I did set out to impress you. If I set out to scare you, I would have sent you the "before" shots and not the "after" shots. I sent you studio pics I just took this month. I figured I better do the glamour shots before I start with the pregnancy thing. Kind of on hold at the moment. Need to do another cycle of medications. May start later this month or next...<P>Wonderful news about J. You're doing good, Hon. Why worry if he forced her or not? Either way, you got the opportunity to show her love. Remember, you're basically Plan A'ing your daughter, too, at this point...<P>All that other stuff you wrote that was demeaning to you, I'm going to ignore, D. I don't believe a word of it. I saw your pictures, and I've talked to you for over a year now. I think I know just what kind of person you are. Don't argue with me! You're a sweetheart. <P>But work on you and your self esteem and relationship skills first, Hon. Worry about relationships with 45 year old men later! <P><B>S... she never mentioned a word about loving him she only said that I was stupid and she could have each man she wanted and each house she wanted and I expected she'd say they (or she) are in love or something similar.<BR>Maybe they are aware (he) their relationship is not based on proper basement.</B><P>This is very telling, D. But, again, don't put your focus or your energies on where their realtionship is--you need to use it on yourself right now. <P>I'm so excited for you, D. You can do this!<P>And didn't I tell you before anytime this past year?! How funny that I never it before. I'm a nurse. <P>How's your job going? Is it still being threatened?<P>Aloha and God bless,<P>L<P><BR>

<BR><p>[This message has been edited by betrayed and desperate (edited June 28, 2001).]

I know nothing of lawyers and even less about Croatian law--I can offer you no help there, D. You will need some sort of assistance. Do they believe in pro bono work there? Legal aide for those unable to pay? They have such things here in the U.S.<P>Sorry to hear of your friend and cancer. I also have a friend undergoing her 3rd round of chemo. She is only 39 with three children under 7 yrs. of age. Our own problems do seem like zero in comparison, no?<P>Good news about J. At least it was an opportunity to connect. Even tho she is still selfish--that's how alot of teenagers are, I understand. When she is older hopefully she will be more emotionally mature to bond to you for the right reasons.<P><B>"But work on you and your self esteem and relationship skills" Yes, that's for sure I have to do, but there is no relationship just now (only with Maja)</B><P>The time to work on relationship skills is before you're actually going to use them. And the self esteem thing you need to work on--like right now!! And stop using the word "BUT"!<P><B>Worry about relationships with 45 year old men later!--- I don't want 45yr man I want Mio (43)</B><P>You were the one to mention 45 year old men first, not me! <P>Re: your mother--do you have no assistance for the elderly or the frail in Croatia? No health insurance that covers home health assistance or meals for your father?<P>D, I thought Mio would help you if you asked? Maybe I understood wrong. <P>Must go, not much time today for other than a brief note....Hoping your situation improves a little by the next <BR>time I hear from you. <P>Aloha,<P>L<P>

Hello,<BR>Do they believe in pro bono work there? Here NO! You have to have a lot of money to annulate what I signed and with doubtful success that's the new att said to me. <BR>I have time to think till Nov.<P><BR>Our own problems do seem like zero in comparison, no?--It's true but unfortunately I forget that mostly.<P><BR>I spoke to J on phone again and we are like Yo-Yo- one day better the next day I get mad on her...and all arround.<P>You are right I always have this BUT, that's the habbit so I would have a lot of strength to change it and for now I feel weak, on all of the story now my mother and two homes to keep+work+M+...<P><BR> your mother--do you have no assistance for the elderly or the frail in Croatia? No health insurance that covers home health assistance or meals for your father?--- You must understand that we are far from USA we are close only with prices but nothing else (I earn about 600$ a month with all my degrees.and the pension my parents have is about300$-F was proff at the faculty too and M never worked) You can imagine how is the living with USA prices and that amount of money<P><BR>D, I thought Mio would help you if you asked? ---Yes probably would before Sunday but now I am afraid to ask and BTW I am too proud to ask (you can't eat the pride! but..) <BR>He knows the situation so after 22 years I expected him to offer help to his former W, MIL and FIL cause he knows I have no relatives to help, noone<P>I jumped to the Dept cause of some job --we have a holiday today and we work on Mon again.<BR>I am going to the beach now with M and at the evening she goes to him till tomorrow evening. That's the worst time for me, but now I have obligations with parents, two homes to keep is too much for me now but they have noone another but me so...<BR>if only he'd find a time to call me to give me some moral help, a hand ....but no sound for him at all<BR>He hates me now tht is sure.<BR>Do you truly believe there is chance for reconciliation for us?<BR>And could it succeed?<BR>I am not sure<BR>From July 4th I'd be divorced and that scares me<P><BR>

D,<P>I don't believe you will be reconciled by July 4th. You've let too much time go by without trying to change your behavior patterns and building up your self esteem. You've given Mio no incentive to reconcile. The few times you have, you destroyed by letting those old behavior patterns resurface.<P>Too many times you have rejected the advice or made excuses for not following... <P>No reconcilliation is possible if you don't do the work you're supposed to do...<P>If the situation hasn't changed--mainly your behavior--why would Mio return?<P>This is my frustration for you, D. It is a lesson you refuse to heed, thus are doomed to suffer the consequences for...<P>Not to give you false hope...Dr. Harley says, divorce may not be the end. If he marries again, then I would say you are finished--but you can always Plan A after divorce. <P>D, please wake up and make those permanent changes. If you don't, I can guaruntee you that you have NO chance at all.<P>Aloha,<P>L

I didn't mean of reconciliation till next week, this is impossible, I am thinking of the future a year or two or ten...<P><BR>You are right about everything that is why I think there is no hope ever for us to be together.<BR>Once more I decided to be different but now I have no chance to show that to him and even if he hears of something he will not believe it will last and he is right.<P>Not to give you false hope...Dr. Harley says, divorce may not be the end.------do you know of any such successful case? I know his friend from school who remarried his wife twice and one neighbour who returned to his wife at the age of 70+ that's all<P>I am afraid that now , no matter what i do , i have no chances at all forever.<P>One more question:<BR>M told me that S is going to Dalmatia for 3 weeks. what do you think what is better: M be with him during this period he and J are alone so he can miss her after or just the opposite: M not go there so he can feel loneliness????<P>Maybe during these 3 weeks he can rethink about his life and what she is doing while she is not with him, <P>I know he hates me now after this last hysteryc attack and we'll be divorced next week that can't be stopped now. If only I didn't do that mess 15 days ago maybe that would be a chance to be morer together, i failed once again and that was probably my last chance<P>I again don't do anything except thinking of him I'll loose my job like that <P>I hate him and I love him I want him back but I don't know if I can forgive him. I don't know anything now<BR>How to act how to live . To start communication or to wait for his first move?<BR>Love<BR>D<BR>

<B><BR>do you know of any such successful case?</B><P>I am not a collector of such cases, but Harley is. If he says it happens, it must--he's the expert...<P>About M, what do you believe would be the loving and correct and the emotionally mature/adult way to behave here, D?<P>What would be in the best interest of your daughters? How would a loving mother behave?<P>Remember, you cannot control anyone else and their actions and thoughts. You can only control your own. Make positive choices, D--not negative or manipulative ones. <P>Take one day at a time. <P>Concentrate on becoming a more positive person. <P> Don't involve yourself with Mio--involve yourself with healing and with the growth of your own spirit. <P> That must come FIRST--before any sort of positive communication with anyone.

Dear L<P>----About M, what do you believe would be the loving and correct and the emotionally mature/adult way to behave here, D?<P>What would be in the best interest of your daughters? How would a loving mother behave?-----that's exact thing I don't know , he wants M to come to him, but if S IS there I 'd become mad I don't want them to be together. S is better than me and M will in that case see that like J did.<P>Just when I thought I'd survive and be better, yesterday when I spent few hours with mom in the hospital to change her leg imobilisation... I returned home, Maja went out to play and in the moment I felt so lonely and left alone that I started to cry and simply can't stop.<BR>I waited more than a week for him to ask me how I was in the mess with my mom, but no word from him, and I broke again. <P>And cause I can't communicate positively I made one more mess.I made a mistake sending him cell phone message (SMS) how I need help,he offered me some, I wanted more details cause I needed his "shoulder" he understood properly but of course answered in other way without any feelings showed, he was icecold<BR> At the end I called him on phone and cried a lot mentioning S, he shut the phone , i called once more he said he understood me but we would never be together again I could expect material help from him only, not to wait him like I said I should (tilldeath), and at the end he offered me to meet on Thursday (today is on business trip).<P>I don't know if I should see him or not, i want that but I am afraid I'll start crying or begging him for love.<P>He for sure hates me for all those scenes I made and for all my behaviour in the marriage. <BR>He is right, I was cold and selfish, I blackmailed him with pregnancises I was not a good wife as I am not a good mother or daughter.<P>I know I shouldn't do that but no one can understand how I feel: no relatives at all, his relatives I felt like they are mine but now no one word of help from them, my parents so old slightly senile, salary low, only M cares for me (neithe J nor any body). <BR>I have a lot of friends but with parents can help your own blood only or H.<BR> I am sleeping in an empty new cold bed for year and a half now and S keeps talking how she enjoys my bed.<P>How to survive the court, I am so afraid. One can not survive that. That's finally the end of everything end of any hope, any life. wednesdays is so close, I already started to shake, cry, became psychotic....<P>I don't really understand what kind of a person am I .<P>How can I forgive them, how, when they are enjoying life and love and me is kicked out of the picture forever. I was good only for housekeeping when there was no money, when he was so hard working, when money came it's right to move in better, younger, prettier woman and start enjoying those years left.<P>No books can help, noone can help, time don't help, nothing...<BR>Maybe lobotomy could help.<BR>How I miss him, he is so good H and father, he was always beside me in hard moments, his hands are so gentle warm like feathers, i miss his arms arround me his kisses.I miss HIM:<BR>In 6 days I'll be divorced, i can't accept it.<BR>My 19 months are gone so why to wait something what can't happen? Hurley IS expert but for USA not Croatia<BR>Why to live in false hope ?<BR>Fairytails are not real, do not happen.<BR>Love does not win.<BR>Thanks for care but please do not waste more time on me it's not worth, I am not worth of that <BR>I'll quit boring you forever you have enough of your problems.<BR>Hope the baby(s) is on the way. hope you'll cellebrte "golden" anniversary and wishing you the best in every field in life<BR>Bye<BR>D<BR>I've been just informed that she is pregnant.<BR>I can't stand thatThis time I'll finish the job<P><BR>[This message has been edited by betrayed and desperate (edited June 27, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by betrayed and desperate (edited June 28, 2001).]

If you want to give up, that is your perogative...<P>If you're doing so just because the OW got pregnant--D, I have news for you--there are hundreds of OW that get pregnant. Recovery has been known to happen anyway. <P>By the way, our attempt to conceive was not successful. My ovaries failed to react well to the low dose of medications. One more try on higher doses and then we'll see. I may have to let go of my dream to have children...<P>At least you are blessed in this way that I am not.<P>

I don't WANT to give up, only there's no hope left.<BR>----Recovery has been known to happen anyway.-----maybe in US not here in the city of 200 000 people.<P>In two hours I'll be divorced, left by everybody <P><BR>I am sure next time you succeed you deserve that

20 minutes for 19 years of marriage, almost a minute per year.<BR>And now I am divorced.<BR>He took me to the most expensive restaurant to dinner after the "party". We spent 4 hours together. He claimed S is not pregnant but after so many lies???<BR>He allowed me to take his hand before getting out of the car but didn't allow me to kiss him (like a friend).<BR>He said we would go out for dinner some time.<BR>I asked him if he was now happy when he was free, he answered: I am not happy and drove away.<BR>Nothing has left only loneliness, emptyness, no future, no light...nothing.<BR>No hope.<BR>Only a sentence: I can't predict the future.

D,<P>I am so sorry. <P>But I have to disagree. We did predict the future...we knew this day was coming if you did not make the changes you needed to make. It was guarunteed he would not come back if you gave him no changes, no reason to come back for. <P>I doubted she was pregnant as well. But even if she was, it really makes very little difference. Recovery is about you and Plan A and meeting Mio's needs--not about pregnancy.<P>So sorry I can offer you no hope or help so long as you refuse to comply with what you need to do...<P>Thank you for your kind words about my in vitro attempt--but whether I have a child or not will not make my life any less valuable. Just as if you are married to Mio or not, you are and your life are not any less valuable and priceless. <P>Don't you dare disagree with me, D. If you do, then you say that I am not valuable because I am not a mother. <P>Tricky, aren't I?<P>