Hello All - I'm back. I tried this once before a couple of weeks a go and only got one response.<BR>I need more than that, please help!!!<P> I am the BS in this story and it sounds like so many others that I have read. Wife says she was <P>unhappy, contacted and old friend(Old friend was a guy from college,20 some years ago, that wasn't a <P>boyfriend, but they were in a physical relationship), started up contact via phone, e-mail and chat. <P>Then it mushroomed into a full blown PA on a couple of business trips to areas near the other man. <P>D-Day was Jan 13,2001 a day I will never forget. I had my suspicions, but not any hard proof. Then <P>I finally looked on her computer and found some love letters she had sent him that let a devastating <P>hole in heart. I confronted her and about all she could say was she was sorry she hurt me. Well we <P>have stayed together and I was pretty much doing Plan since day 1 even though I didn't know it then. <P>At this point although I never asked her to give up any contact with the OM. So the contact <P>continued, but to a lesser amount than before d-day. I had been doing pretty good until about the <P>middle of April. Our anniversary is 4-16. I sent her flowers and even showed up to take her to <P>lunch. Something didn't seem right. Very little eye contact was my first clue. After lunch I went <P>home and after some soul searching searched her computer again. This time I found some more e-mails <P>to the OM. I should also tell you she was planning a trip to Ill. with a girlfriend of hers. Well <P>from the e-mails I found out that he was going to be there to. When she got home I made kinda of a <P>scene and left to spend the night at a friends house. This was a major LB, but I left more for her <P>saftey because I felt as if I was going to loose control. Thank God I didn't. I should also tell you <P>she has always been a hard person to read and she very seldom will let her true feelings be known. <P>She also likes to run from confrontation. I have been to a councilor since then and I am taking <P>anti-depressant's. I have also read some of the books and articles mentioned on this web-site, but I <P>can't get her to do anything that looks like she is trying to help our relationship. She either <P>can't or won't talk to me about what she is feeling. I have asked many times. I even borrowed <P>someones letter from this web-site(Thanks for the start) and told her in writing that I could not <P>stay if she did not begin to show that she wanted to work on our marriage. <BR>I gave her the letter about 4 weeks ago on a Thursday night. I finally asked her about it Sunday <P>night and all she could say is "What do you want me to say". What a let down. Since then I have <P>given her my thoughts about us. She has told me she wants to go back to the way things were before <P>the EA. I replied I can't ever go back there because she was unhappy that way and that is what <P>brought us to the point we are at now. I told our future would depend on our ability to change what <P>we were doing and also that she should have no contact with the OM.<BR>She keeps telling me that she is trying to figure things out. She won't look at any of the books I've <P>read and she won't even consider counseling. I know that if I don't see some effort on her part soon <P>I feel for my own mental health I will ask her to leave or I will. If this happens we will have to <P>sell the house because neither of us can afford it on our own. <P>I would greatly appreciate any thoughts or words of wisdom from anyone? Spiceman62

Spiceman,<P>It seems that you are doing Plan A very well. I think you will find that it is often quite awhile before the WS will open up, even after they decide to make the marrige something they want to try and save. So in that vain you should have patience.<P>However, it sounds like you are starting to lose you love of your W, if that is true then Plan B is where you need to go. Two, things it is most beneficial if you have done a really good job of Plan A before moving into Plan B. <BR>Second, Plan B is NOT to punish your W or even get her to come back. It is to save what remaining love you have in the eventuality that she decides to come back.<P>It is an act of preserving love, rather than one of punishment or even pressure. Please read about this carefully. There are even sample letters here for you to consider.<P>Finally, Plan B should be entered BEFORE you are ready to give up the marriage. If you have lost all love, then there is nothing to preserve. Right? One other thought and it can be construed as both a positive and a negative. Plan B is for you whether your W comes back or not. It allows you to sort many things out on your own. In someways it prepares you for the worst, while preserving the best in case she does come out of the fog and the affair ends as they often do.<P>You can and many people do view it as risky, but it seems to me it is really a plan with little risk. You will win no matter the outcome. I know this hard to believe but there are many cases here where Plan B allowed the BS to hang in there until the affair was over. And there are many cases where the BS went into Plan B, and found at the end that the marriage couldn't be saved (WS just wouldn't work on it) and they were better prepared for the final step.<P>So Please do some more reading here. Ask more questions and post to other people. You will be surprised how much you learn about yourself as you endeavor to help someone else.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hallo Spiceman<P>I am so sorry to hear about all your pain and depression. I can really say that me too knows exactly how you feel. I'm the BS, and my H also don't want to talk about anything. He also just wants things back the way it was before the A, but at the same time he doesn't do anything at all to get there again.<P>It is just so frustrating!!! When his A came to light (23 Jan 2001), I planed A him (without knowing it). Even after he moved out (23 March) I still did plan A. Then one day I visited him in his flat and I found OW lying on his bed. I just went nuts!! But even after that I did my best to show him only the loving me.<P>However, at the end of May, after seeing them driving off somewhere with her head on my H's shoulder, something just klicked in me. I took off my wedding ring, changed our message on our voice mail and wrote him a beautiful good bye-letter. Saying that I won't trade what we had for anything in the world and I still love him with all my heart, but for my own well being I have to look after myself. Since he is the one who's hurting me I must brake all contact with him. He is not to contact me. If he wants so say something, he can write to me. I told him that our marriage is totally in his hand: he can brake or make it, but while he's making up his mind I must go on with my life.<P>After a few days of total silence, he started to write me letters. Although we only wrote a few, I think we sorted out a few things. So then I started with plan A again.<P>Now, I think we are in the recovery phase. He said that she don't visit him anymore, but they still work together and the other day, when he came visiting me, she phoned. He said we must just pack up and leave since that's the only way he can get her out of his head, but at the same time he does nothing to get us going.<P>So now I try not to smother him while at the same time I'm trying to spend as much time with him as possible. For me as a very conserved young woman it's terrible being the "hunter". But since he's living on his own, I don't know for sure what's going on and every second I'm with him, I know she's not there. So I try by best.<P>It is terrible not to have him here in the house. I HATE being alone. But at the same time, him not being there gives me some time not to walk on egg shells. Then I can cry and throw tantrums and I don't have take him into account. I also learned a few tings about myself in this time and I got the most amazing friends.<P>Unfortunately I can't give you any advice. I can only tell you what happened in my live. I hope this helps. For me its good to see other people goes through the same stuff and somehow we all survive.<P>Good luck, Spiceman. May the Good Lord give you all the strength and wisdom you need!<P>ivory

Hi Spiceman,<P>I'm very sorry to hear the desperation in your posting. This is a tough time for you. I'm not sure I can offer you any advice - I'm very new to MB and this whole damned affair business. <P>Please, be sure to take care of yourself - avoid getting into any mental health issues. You're going to need all the strength you have. I know this is easy to say and very hard to do but find some release for the tension. For me, I started running again - this gives me a chance to think and get rid of all the crap that's in my head. It also means I avoid drinking a beer or two and - I've lost 14lbs in the last 4 weeks !!!! This means that I'm feeling good about myself and I feel mentally tougher to keep on top of the situation.<P>WAT had a great posting relating to how to cope with an affair - this is a great read - and it helped me. Try and accept where you are and develop a Plan A to give you an anchor and some positive actions to do.<P>Mentally, I've told myself that I'm dating my wife again (like you I'm the BS). And I've been PlanAing my little heart out since. PlanAing is damned hard work. Especially at first because there's little or no payback. But I'm doing something and that feels good. I've also accepted that there is a Plan B (it might be inevitable) and this gives me a way out of the situation where I can preserve my dignity, self-respect and love that I still have left for my wife.<P>My only other tip is - don't beg or even sound like it. It kills your self-respect and she'll hate you. Do tell her that you love her - but don't beg her or expect her to love you back. Not at first anyway. Also expect her to be confused - it seems this is known as the fog - and she'll need time. It seems like they needs lots of that.<P>Sorry Spiceman, I feel completely inadequate with my advice. Hang in there.<P>- Paul.<P>

Even though I'm totally devoted to my W-WS and totally devoted to what Plan A I can do at a distance, I found myself driving home from work last night wondering how long I can last like this. It's tough work!!! I guess all of of will eventually make it through all this mess for better or worse. That's life. We will survive. My W has put herself in a VERY difficult possition for her to get out of. I don't envy her at all. <BR> Plan A must go on at all costs until, as other posts said, you really begin to lose the love you have for your spouse. You can do it!<BR> Thank God the fog gets 'em to keep all their emails!! What did BS's do before computers?

Well everyone that replied I thank you very much. I do feel that I am very close to going to Plan B. My feelings for my W have gotten to the point where I don't even think about sex anymore. Not trying to crude or anything, but I have to admit for a guy that seems to be a pretty bad sign. I layouted out for her how I thought things could go. 1- We go back to the way it was. She has said she would like to go back to the way it was. I told her that is impossible. Throught the last few months she has said she hasn't really been happy for the last 9 years so why would I want to go back to that. 2-She commits to trying to save our marriage. I expect her to say she wants this and she must also commit to no contact with OM. Without some kind of verbal commitment I can believe what I see. 3- We go our spereate ways. I also told her if this were the case the house would have to be put up for sale because neither of us can afford it on our own.<BR>I have been doing a lot of thinking and started some planning for Plan B. I really want to be prepared for when I decide to do this. It really seems strange to me that she seems to be showing love and affection, but it is like before D-day. I can't really tell if it's for real or just an act like it was before D-day. She doesn't seem able to say she loves me unless I say it to her first.<BR>I have a birthday in a month so I've kinda set that as the time frame that I make my final decision about Plan B. I am planning to make at least one more run at her to try to tell her how I feel, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.<BR>Again thanks for your comments and by all means keep them coming.

I have just a couple of thoughts for ya'. <P>Have you read much on General Questions II board? There's lots and lots of posting traffic over there, and most of it has to do with Plan A and Plan B. It's locked up right now (really ssssllllooooowwwwww), but check back later tonight.<P>Have you really done your best Plan A for 3 months? I think that's the real test. Plan A is supposed to 1 - create an environment that your WS will feel more comfrotable being honest, 2 - your WS will see all the best qualities you have and that you are improving on the worst ones - they have to see and believe (which takes time) that you have made the changes THEY need in order to be happy, and 3 - give you confidence by learning the areas you need to grow in and by implementing actual changes in your life to make improvements (these improvements will help you in all areas of your life - friendships, work, and other family). Plan A can have no LB's, and should include as many EN's as your WS will allow you to fulfill. So, you proabably know all that, but you need to be honest with yourself that you have done the best Plan A you can before moving on to B. Your WS must remember the best "you" there is or Plan B won't work. I'm not a plan B expert at all, so I won't go there. <P>ANother thought is that I think you should quit bringing up the OM, and quit giving her ultimatums and trying to force her to decide. Those things are not Plan A. WS's don't WANT to be pushed off the fence! THat is the purpose of Plan B, but only AFTER a quality Plan A. LB's are Disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, selfish demands, and annoying habits. Just be sure to check yourself on that, ok? for the most effective Plan A.... Can you try Plan A for a little while longer - say a month - and avoid LB's at all costs - even if you have to smile and leave the room for a minute - or bite your tongue. Write them down so you'll know what they are - specifically in regards to your W - what really bugs? What makes her dislike you? What made her unhappy before? <P>Hope this helps a little - it's so hard to tell from a little story how to really help, but based on what I read, maybe you can use some of this. Keep reading and posting....<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Faith1 Thanks for your comments.<P>I have been trying very hard to meet her needs, but I have what I consider a major hurdle. She hasn't given me any indication of what her EN are. She is a very hard person to get any info out of. I have tried by telling her how I feel, but she usually has very little to say or says I don't know or I'm trying to figure out what I want. This has been going on since mid-Jan. 2001. She wrote me a letter in response to one of mine that said she hasn't really been happy for about 9 years. I never new this or saw any indication that this was the case. Sure we had some disagreements and fights, but that normal and healthy in my book. I havene't been meaning to give any ultimatums just trying to communicate how I feel and trying to get back some kind of response. How am I supposed to know if I doing the right or wrong things. I obviously can trust my own judgement anymore if I could see a problem sometime in the last 9 years.<BR>I am going to keep trying for at least another month on Plan A. My birthday is in Sept. so I am waiting to see what kind of progress has been made, if any. Plan A is very hard I know that, but it is even harder when you have no indication if you are going in the right direction. I'm not a very religious man, but the only thing I've asked God for is the strength to follow the path that he is putting down for me.

I'm glad you are willing to keep trying! My B'day is in sept too. We can celebrate together when our WS's come home!!<P>Please be sure to look around in General Questions II. I think you'll find a lot of help there.<P>You can do a pretty good job of figuring out your w's EN's and LB's. Have you read His Needs Her Needs? It's a must as well as Surviving an Affair. Most women need financial support, honesty, conversation and affection (romance!and sensitivity - not sex). Think of all the times yo've really seen your wife happy - what needs were being met? And I already mentioned the LB's - what really makes her mad or sad?<P>ANyway - there's lots of wisdom and similar stories on GQII - come join us. And hang in there. I think if you really learn some more about Plan A, you have a good chance of pulling it off.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Faith1<P>Thanks for pointing me toward GQII. I have been over there and have read some very interesting posts. I believe they have helped me to see things a little differently and have given me a renewed snese of Hope. I'll keep ya posted.<P>Spiceman62