I moved here because GQ2 always seems locked up.<P>dlm, you mentioned that you were telling your husband that you didn't want to work on things and that he should just move on and be happy without you. Did you mean those things when you said them? Or were you saying them so that he would focus on the problems he caused in the marriage?<P>The reason I ask, and maybe I have selective memory, is that my wife in the last couple of weeks has said and written some weird things. I'll list them here and let people pick them apart and tell me what she is really saying. I've been so focused on "its not going to work" that I forgot so many other things that I guess should give me hope.<P>1) She still says she loves me and always will. Also says that she hopes we are able to remain friends. * As a side note she has an aunt that got a divorce and remarried. Now the aunt, her new husband and the ex and his wife are like a foursome. My wife once said that might be how everything turns out for us. Like she still wants some contact.<P>2) When she talked about being apart, it went from separation for a year and see what happends, to separation for 6 months and see what happens, to separation for 6 months and then a divorce. All within the space of a week. Then at one point said that even if we got a divorce that didn't mean we couldn't remarry. Said the arrangement for 6 month separation and then a divorce, would force ME to focus on my problems and my happiness and that if thigs turned around we didn't have to get the divorce. Also said at one point, like the day before she left, that we should just get a divorce so that she wouldn't hurt my feelings. This was before she knew that I knew about the affair.<P>3) The night before she left she sat on my lap and we talk about things for the first time in a long time. We hugged and we cried. When I said I felt like a failure as a man, she said "You are a great man and shouldn't feel like a failure."<P>4) She got mad at me for not saying "I love you" on the phone, once. I won't go into that in her mind being the cause of the affair. But it seems an odd thing to say.<P>5) Up until 2 months ago when I was laid off, I called her everyday when I got to work, at some point over lunch and right before I left for home. I called when I left for a client's office, when I got there, when I was heading back to the office and when I got there. She would get mad if I forgot to call. I always said "I love you" and we made kissy noises.<P>6) I started a new job last week and was rather nervous the Sunday before. She called me early on Sunday to see how I was and to wish me well. Was even crying about how confused she was about things. Said she was sorry about the affair. Never mind that it still goes on.<P>7) When we finally did break down and talk about children, <B>after</B> we had talked about separating, she said I needed to grow up so I could be a good father. Never said if that meant of OUR kids or not, but seemed rather odd after years of saying "no kids."<P>8) Said in the week prior to her leaving that I needed to learn to be more responsible. I made the money and she managed the bills. Anytime I offered to help, she told me no. Now she wants me to be able to do that, take care of the house and the kids.<P>9) She has said very recently that I need to get out and be around people. For 12 years neither of us went out as a couple with other couples. Neither of us really had any friends to speak of. It was always us against the world. <P>10) I broke her trust by reading her journal(also learned of affair that way) but only read it once and I feel like a s**t for doing it. But along with mentioning the affair, she also mentioned that one time recently I went to the grocery store without wearing my wedding ring. I always wear it, but had just gotten out of the shower and forgot. It seemed important that I wasn't wearing it, by why not remember 10 years of wearing it every day, sometimes even sleeping with it on.<P>11) Said on the phone once she had moved back with her parents that if I sent her pictures of our puppies, that it would be that much harder. What would be harder?<P>12) Monday night after my therapy session, I called her. She never said she wanted a divorce, never said the word divorce, but said that what ever we're doing "is what's best." But she wasn't at other man's house that night, it was late when I called and a long drive to town if she was going to. She knew I was going to therapy, maybe she was waiting.<P>13) Has called me as many times as I've called her since she left.<P>14) In Monday night's call said that she was going to get an apartment and live alone in it. Said she didn't think affair would amount to anything. That she really needed her own space to think about what she wants.<P>15) Signed off Monday's call with each of us saying we loved the other and wanted each other to be happy. I said she could call anytime she wanted and she said I could call anytime I wanted. Seems like a slight easing of "need time and space, don't call."<P>Now again, I may just have selective memory but to me this doesn't sound like things someone would say if they REALLY wanted out of a marriage. I don't want to focus too much on these things, and forget that I do have work to do, but don't these things seem a little weird for someone who is so sure things aren't going to work? <P>She's never said anything about why see NEEDS or WANTS to leave. She just isn't happy and needs time and space to think. But how do you just walk away from 12 years without some regrets? There has to still be some love in her.<P>Thanks again to everyone, especially Faith and dlm. I'm much better today. I will keep trying.

I'm with you SBT, why is GQ2 always clogged up? I have roadrunner and so I know it's not my modem. Does this happen often?<P>SBT, I don't know if I can take Plan A any longer, I got friends telling me today that W said that basically I was a great guy but she married too young and the wrong person. That hits hard, it doesn't shound like she cares about anything anymore. I really believe that she made a conscience decision to leave the marriage when she had the affair. She was almost too careless about it or just plain dumb. I suspected and two weeks later I had video proof (in my house no less) I really think she is now waffling only b/c she can't believe that I'm still sticking around and that she is probably still seeing OM. This day has been terrible b/c I can't get any comfort in GQ. Should I stay or should I go? Plan Aing for two weeks now and the only thing she has done is have dinner with me three times out of convenience not planned and we talk on phone and email. I feel and she told me she thought of me as a friend and not a husband/lover.<BR>Help me please

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gdc:<BR><B>SBT, I don't know if I can take Plan A any longer, I got friends telling me today that W said that basically I was a great guy but she married too young and the wrong person. That hits hard, it doesn't shound like she cares about anything anymore. I really believe that she made a conscience decision to leave the marriage when she had the affair. She was almost too careless about it or just plain dumb. I suspected and two weeks later I had video proof (in my house no less) I really think she is now waffling only b/c she can't believe that I'm still sticking around and that she is probably still seeing OM. This day has been terrible b/c I can't get any comfort in GQ. Should I stay or should I go? Plan Aing for two weeks now and the only thing she has done is have dinner with me three times out of convenience not planned and we talk on phone and email. I feel and she told me she thought of me as a friend and not a husband/lover.<BR>Help me please</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well I won't be the person to tell you to stick with it and fight because every day that goes buy <B>I</B> don't know if I can continue. But I don't think Plan A is about getting your wife back. I think its about getting YOU back. The person she fell in love with the person that she couldn't imagine spending her life without. You occationaly let her know/see that that person is on his way back. And you don't stop until he is. She may choose not to come back, you can't change her mind, but she married you because at one point you were a great catch. If you work on bringing that person back, then there will be plenty of other women who would also like to have a great catch.<P>Man, I sound like a regular!<P>I guess I should add that in Plan A, from my understanding, you have to find a way to meet your wife's emotional needs. In the beginning you did a good job of that or she wouldn't have married you. Now you have <B>both</B> changed. You need to figure out what her needs are now and meet them as best you can. It may well be that you and her are no longer compatible. You have to face that possibility. But I'd be willing to bet that you're a lot closer than cursory inspection might indicate.<P>My wife is a little bit country and I'm a little bit rock-n-roll. We don't share a lot of common recreational interests, but we were both raised in the mid-west, share a passion for our families and our puppies and have been able to make each other laugh and smile, even though things were getting bad.<P>Hang in there. Its a long road.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_but_true (edited July 31, 2001).]

Wow, sbt.... you do sound like a regular. my work here is done! <P>Well, you two, Plan A is hard as heck sometimes. But giving up too quick will get you nowhere. As we said before, what is 3-6 months out of your life to work on yourself and wait for your spouse to get back on track?<P>I was thinking today - as I out driving around, there's no guarantees in Plan A/B. Plan A/B and Harley principles only INCREASE your chances of marraige survival. I don't know what percentages. SOme people are at 0% chance of survival without these principles, and maybe at a 50% chance WITH the principles. That's pretty good to me! <P>sbt, we were talking last night about MAYBE they will come back and MAYBE NOT. Here's those percentages again. They have a better chance of coming back if we Plan A our butts off, then if we chase them, or file for D, or just give up and do nothing! <P>I noticed on your other post "Does Plan A really work???" that a well-respected veteran answered you with list of people right off the top that have succeeded. I should've copied into here. I think I'm going to look up some if their stories, and see what I can learn. You may want to do the same.<P>Hopefully GQII will be back up tonight. Seems to get clogged during the day when everyone is at work and logged in. Hopefully, my H will be here shortly so we can do our work (taxes). He may have to reschedule again (I'm such a priority for him right now :rolleyes , so I may not be on much tonight. If he doesn't come, I'll be here.<P>I will read back through your list of what W said and try to respond to some of them. She and my H are sharing a brain, I think. She has said many of the same things my H said. THe Mothership knows how to get those messaages out!!<P>GDC, plan A'ing for 2 weeks, and dinner 3 times is very good. KEEP DOING IT! At least she thinks of you as a FRIEND. Keep doing it. Any positive response is good. Anything is better than seeing them run the other way or serving us D papers!!<P>sbt, yes, I'm sure you are deep in your W's heart. Hang onto that. If she wants space, yes, she will enjoy it for a while. That hurts like he!! too, ok? brace yourself. She may enjoy the freedom to come and go and make her own decisions. But it probably won't last. <P>You are like me, no kids. At least kids are not being hurt, BUT they are a good tie also. I get scared sometimes that my H has no reason to come home. But Vows, years invested, my self-improvement, our closeness, my consistent and persistent love for him, and memories are a lot to hold onto as well. One thing I'm striving for in my Plan A is to be more like what he fell in love with. Are you? He has told me "you used to do...." " you used to be like....." and as long as I AGREE with those complaints, I am working on fixing them.<P>Glad you are feeling better today.

Moving to the top. Still looking for some comments on what my wife has said here and from dlm about what she told her husband.<P>Thanks!<BR>

sbt,<BR>Have you read this post by WAT? I love to re-read it from time to time.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000940.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000940.html</A> <P>Click and read, and then come back. ok? <P>I'll try to respond to some of your W's comments. <BR>1) She still says she loves me and always will. Also says that she hopes we are able to remain friends. * As a side note she has an aunt that got a divorce and remarried. Now the aunt, her new husband and the ex and his wife are like a foursome. My wife once said that might be how everything turns out for us. Like she still wants some contact.<P>I like to take this as a positive. At least she's not saying I hate your guts and never want to speak to you again.<P>2) When she talked about being apart, it went from separation for a year and see what happends, to separation for 6 months and see what happens, to separation for 6 months and then a divorce. All within the space of a week. Then at one point said that even if we got a divorce that didn't mean we couldn't remarry. Said the arrangement for 6 month separation and then a divorce, would force ME to focus on my problems and my happiness and that if thigs turned around we didn't have to get the divorce. Also said at one point, like the day before she left, that we should just get a divorce so that she wouldn't hurt my feelings. This was before she knew that I knew about the affair.<P>Divorce seems to be an easy way out for them. My H and I went to church (while we were still in counseling also), then at lunch got into one of those convo's where I'm trying to understand what's going on and convince him to give us a chance (I was still learning how to Plan A properly ). ON the way home I try to push him off the fence - her or me. He said "Fine. I want a divorce." THis was 6 weeks ago - and of course he hasn't done anything about it. At some point, in your Plan A'ing, they realize it's not really what they want. EVERYONE knows divorce is bad, and most people will really think twice (or more) before going through with it.<P>3) The night before she left she sat on my lap and we talk about things for the first time in a long time. We hugged and we cried. When I said I felt like a failure as a man, she said "You are a great man and shouldn't feel like a failure."<P>Once again, she truly cares about you as a person. Take that ANY DAY over "you're a failure and a scum. I'm leaving."<P>4) She got mad at me for not saying "I love you" on the phone, once. I won't go into that in her mind being the cause of the affair. But it seems an odd thing to say.<P>??? don't know, unless maybe in her mind, she decided that THAT phone call was a test. We women will do that from time to time. "Well, I'll call him and see how it goes. If he convinces me he loves me, I'll stay in the relationship. If he screws up, that's it!" The ole' flower petal thing "he loves me, he loves me not". We women are emotional creatures and can decide just from one thing you say or do how we feel "today".<P>5) Up until 2 months ago when I was laid off, I called her everyday when I got to work, at some point over lunch and right before I left for home. I called when I left for a client's office, when I got there, when I was heading back to the office and when I got there. She would get mad if I forgot to call. I always said "I love you" and we made kissy noises.<P>You are so sweet! She'll remember those things!! I'm sure you're being laid off had a huge affect on her perspective of "life". Security is SUCH a big need of us women. SHe may have looked at everything and realized she wasn't happy. BUT instead of trying to work on things with you, ran away. (I said some hurtful things to my H, and two weeks later he was gone. He had developed an EA with his friend, and when I said those things - again... looking at my life and wondering what was wrong???? - the timing of the friendship with the OW caused him to run.)<P>6) I started a new job last week and was rather nervous the Sunday before. She called me early on Sunday to see how I was and to wish me well. Was even crying about how confused she was about things. Said she was sorry about the affair. Never mind that it still goes on.<P>See previous answers. Security. Confusion. SHe still cares for you. She knows divorce is scary and wrong.<P>7) When we finally did break down and talk about children, after we had talked about separating, she said I needed to grow up so I could be a good father. Never said if that meant of OUR kids or not, but seemed rather odd after years of saying "no kids."<P>??? Most women think that men need to grow up. It's hard for me to see most men as fathers, until they become one - then they seem so natural!!!<P>8) Said in the week prior to her leaving that I needed to learn to be more responsible. I made the money and she managed the bills. Anytime I offered to help, she told me no. Now she wants me to be able to do that, take care of the house and the kids.<P>She is ready for you to take the leadership in the home. perhaps? I always wanted my H to take more leadership, but I'm afraid I wouldn't let him. I felt more comfortable paying the bills. I Didn't trust him. I hate saying that. <P>9) She has said very recently that I need to get out and be around people. For 12 years neither of us went out as a couple with other couples. Neither of us really had any friends to speak of. It was always us against the world. <P>She's right. BUt I think all of these things she is saying is her trying to - again.... figure out what's wrong???? <P>10) I broke her trust by reading her journal(also learned of affair that way) but only read it once and I feel like a s**t for doing it. But along with mentioning the affair, she also mentioned that one time recently I went to the grocery store without wearing my wedding ring. I always wear it, but had just gotten out of the shower and forgot. It seemed important that I wasn't wearing it, by why not remember 10 years of wearing it every day, sometimes even sleeping with it on.<P>She is grasping at reasons to try to blame you instead of take responsibility for her infidelity. <P>11) Said on the phone once she had moved back with her parents that if I sent her pictures of our puppies, that it would be that much harder. What would be harder?<P>She trying to decide whether or not she wants to leave her life and start a new one. Looking at things she enjoyed in her life makes her decision harder. She would rather just "walk away" and not have to face the pain. Right after my H left, I went out of town for a long weekend. I offered for him to stay at the house - after all I thought it was ME he was avoiding. It's HIS house too. He wouldn't stay there - said, "I just don't want to be in that house right now." <P>12) Monday night after my therapy session, I called her. She never said she wanted a divorce, never said the word divorce, but said that what ever we're doing "is what's best." But she wasn't at other man's house that night, it was late when I called and a long drive to town if she was going to. She knew I was going to therapy, maybe she was waiting.<P>My H said several times "we just need some time apart". It's what they THINK is best. And with a defense like that, they think, who are we to argue?<P>13) Has called me as many times as I've called her since she left.<P>12 years invested. SHe's on the fence. She's scared to give you up.<P>14) In Monday night's call said that she was going to get an apartment and live alone in it. Said she didn't think affair would amount to anything. That she really needed her own space to think about what she wants.<P>My H said the same thing.<P>15) Signed off Monday's call with each of us saying we loved the other and wanted each other to be happy. I said she could call anytime she wanted and she said I could call anytime I wanted. Seems like a slight easing of "need time and space, don't call."<P>Yes. A slight easing. See # 1 answer above. <P>DOn't know if those help you at all. These of course, my guesses and opinions. Maybe someone else can give different insight. Have you read Surviving and Affair yet? I re-read parts last night. It really helps. Dr. Harley addresses some of these same things the WS says.<P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28<P>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Faith1 (edited August 02, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faith1:<BR><B>DOn't know if those help you at all. These of course, my guesses and opinions. Maybe someone else can give different insight. Have you read Surviving and Affair yet? I re-read parts last night. It really helps. Dr. Harley addresses some of these same things the WS says.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Helps a ton! Thanks! I'm just trying to find reasons to stay positive about what chances I have in getting her back.<P>Haven't read it yet. Have a stack of books already to get through.<BR>