Hi,<BR>Is anyone else doing this? You're going really well on plan A, have a good day out with your WS and the kids, no LBs just lots of family fun. You get home and notice that he's left his wallet out on the side, or in his jacket pocket. He leaves the room, you frantically start searching through it for "evidence" eg. restaurant bills etc. OR...they're out at work, you're not, the post arrives....one of them is his itemised American Express Bill.....you open it and start looking down the list of bills for things he shouldn't have been spending money on....Sound familiar? I'm doing well in plan A so far, although I've only been doing it properly for 1 1/2 weeks now, that's when I found MB. My problem is that after D Day (13 April) he said he wasn't in contact with OW anymore, but by snooping through bills etc. I found that he was contacting her daily on his work mobile phone. When I confronted him about this back in May, he nearly left. Ever since then, I've scrutinised every bill to do with his activities while he's away on business, but haven't said anything or confronted him, just kept a record in my diary. He works away Mon to Fri and has to stay in hotels etc. Is looking through stuff a really big LB? The problem is that it looks as though he's stopping off for expensive meals with someone on his way back home on Friday evenings, when I've asked "did you eat on the way home? in my most polite, genuinely interested voice, he's often replied "Oh yes, I had a burger at the motorway cafe" (The bills I've seen look as though they're for a three course meal for two, who has heard of a burger costing £60 UK. Would I have been better to not have known about this? The more "evidence" I find, the more I want to look. I'm not saying anything about what I've found to him and have stopped confronting him, because this would wreck plan A. Anyone got any advice on whether or not to look through their WS stuff. Is it good to know whats really happening or does it just make things worse?

WELL, I LOOK FOR SIGNS. THEY ARE GOING TO LIE TO US AND I FEEL WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON. GOOD LUCK AND STAY WITH THE PLAN. I HAVE BEEN DOING IT OVER A MONTH AND H WILL NOT STOP TALKING TO OW. BUT I KNOW IF HE WANTED TO LEAVE HE WOULD HAVE ALREADY DONE SO. HE IS WAITING FOR ME TO TELL HIM TO LEAVE. WELL HE WILL BE WAITING UNTILL HE-- FREEZES OVER.

I do exactly the same thing, and am not sure if it is good or bad yet. We were doing find until one day she did something that piqued my curiousity, I checked things out, and found some stuff. We have gone downhill since then, me constantly finding new stuff, and her getting madder at me.<P>I am trying to hold off on confronting her for now. I have less evidence then you (no bills or anything), just stuff that I would basically have to cross-examine her to get her to cough up the story. That is bad news. If I had a bill in front of me, I will probably say something about it, but in the nicest way I can.<P>Things are to the point now where if I say "What did you have for lunch today?", she assumes that the question is "Did you eat lunch with him today?", which is partially true.<P>Sorry I cannot give you any good advise. I am going to try to avoid confronting her unless I have to, and when I do, trying to do it as nice as I can.<P>I hope that someone else has a better answer then me...<P>good luck, stay strong.<P><p>[This message has been edited by arthur1234 (edited September 06, 2001).]

I wanted to post this reply before, but my network was down:<P>OK. You probably don't need to investigate to know what he's up to. I know it's hard to control. I'm separated from my WS. She's living with OM. I still look around the house to find things. For example, I looked at her old mobile phone this past Saturday which she stopped using in February. She said that her affair started in late March. The last dialed number was to OM's cell. Yes - I discovered another lie. In my investigation, I also learned where he (and she) live, what country he's from, that he's divorced and has a child, where his company is, what his phone numbers are, his email address, credit card number. In fact, I found a liquor store receipt inside and empty wine bag with this CC#, name and signature for a $46 bottle of wine in my garbage (no I'm not a garbage picker, just a crazy BS) and she denies having him to our home. You know what this all gets me? Absolutly nothing. Maybe one day I'll have fun with the CC# - that's was pretty stupid of them, huh?<P>Anyway, I know she's having an affair. I know she's confused. I know that I'm dealing with the anthesis of the wife I married. I know that I need to Plan A. I know that I need to do things for myself - exercise, read, go to work, hike with the dog, go sailing, work on my boat, wash the car...you get the point. I know all this stuff not because of my investigation but because what MB, SSA, HNHN and Steve have taught me. You probably know the same stuff too.<P>The investigation is something that will make you self-destruct and make it almost impossible to avoid LBing. I don't think that MB has published this, but I think during Plan A/Affair/Separation, etc., almost any interaction with your WS that involves your emotions will result in a LB mainly because they're hurting you. In other words, resist the temtation. Spend your time like it really expensive!<P>good luck and keep prayer in your life<P>God bless you.<BR>

In reply to what you said above, Arthur. Even though I have the bills (as in the sort which come in sealed envelopes) I can't really ask him in a nice way because it means admitting opening letters which were addressed to him as private and confidential ! I used to confront him about them, but if I want to do plan A properly, then I think I will not have to say anything anymore. I am writing down what I have found. Also, the receipts in his wallet .....I can't say anything without admitting that I've been rumaging through his trouser pockets can I? One of the reasons that I posted the above question is that I decided to do this plan A thing properly and commit NO LBs, but last week I sunk to the depths of unsealing an envelope, writing down any suspicious details in my diary, then gluing the envelope back together and putting it back with his other letters. He could probably tell that it had been glued and I wonder whether doing this sort of thing is really worth the risk. But it becomes an obsession doesn't it and you just have to look. Why do we feel the need to find evidence of their lies? It isn't going to make them want us more is it? Or come back to us/ choose us any faster? I wonder whether we do it in the hope that there won't be any evidence and that we will find that they were actually telling the truth. Maybe we want to find evidence tat is is over? We never do though, do we? Anyone else got any ideas on this?

I know exactly how you feel. I've become a regular PI in my own home. I don't know about you, but having a monitoring program on my computer lets me sleep better at night. I know that if he's doing something wrong I will find out sooner or later (whenver I can get into program-he's not home or asleep). I feel like I have to know where I stand since H won't talk about "us" without me bringing it up and then he acts like I'm spoiling his entire day. This way I can know what's going on and won't have to bring up anything to him.

Dear Wounded One,<P>I do this, too. I found email evidence of my wife's affairs with 2 OM, but I only have 1.5 names. Since then I got the name of a 3rd OM. I feel that the names might become necessary later, in a divorce proceeding. I have no intention of meeting or speaking with any of the OMs. It's an obsession to get the first guy's full name. I laid off for a couple months, but it was too hard.<P>Of course, having specific evidence is no help at all trying to do plan A. From the standpoint of working on the marriage, you don't need to snoop in order to realize the affair is still going on. You can be very confident in your instincts about it, plus there might be some clues that show up even without deliberate snooping.<P>My wife really went off on having her privacy invaded. This is a major LB. She told a bunch of her friends and siblings that I read her email, but I don't think she told many of them why. So I'm trying real hard to make sure my wife doesn't realize what else I've learned. She won't stop regardless. I'm not planning to confront my wife with any of this, or any probing questions, unless and until the marriage is really over. <P>One thing I did say to her a while back, is don't tell me where she's going when she goes out. For the most part, she's following that suggestion. I think it helps that I don't have to listen to as many cover stories, because some of them are shown false later, even if I don't explicitly check them out.<P>This doesn't help plan A, but I don't think it hurts either because I would know she is still cheating, even without snooping. I could be deluding myself on that.<P>In your place, I would avoid opening and resealing envelopes. Your H is probably paranoid about covering tracks, and will notice.<P>- Tom<BR>

Your are right wounded one... there is no nice way of presenting your discoveries to your WS. I am pretty confused myself, so please be kind if I contradict myself...<P>Any snooping will be perceived as a LB. From Plan A 101, the wayward gets to define the LB, not the BS. (sucks, but that is the way it goes) So, from that standpoint, we should not snoop. <P>I have a horrible time with it. Maybe we need a 12 step program for snoopers. <P>Here is what I have learned from snooping... that my W is lying to me. What good has it done me? Well, I have learned some of the truth, but have undermined 2 months of work. We were almost there at one point, and now are back to square 1 (along with her going to his apt. again, which I know because I snooped, although she still denies it) <P>What good as snooping done me? Not much. I found her lies. I also damaged what progress we have made. I don't know...<P>I think that we should not snoop, but I cannot even get <BR>myself to stop. <P>mikenu gave pretty good advice about it in his note. I will try to follow it...<P>

Arthur,<P>1. You found out she was lying - is this considered progress?<BR>2. You have to know the truth (Art of War stuff - Know Thine Enemy...) so you need to investigate just enough.<BR>You did not "undermine" 2 months of work. You only exposed the truth. You did the right thing. You are continuing with an effective Plan A. Once you know the truth (is there or is there not an affair?), stop investigating. Sherlock Holmes stopped once he got his answer.<BR>We, as spouses, have an instinctual desire to "snoop" when our spouses ask for privacy. Another word for privacy is secrecy. Should spouses keep secrets? If so, then they have something to hide. Spouses should share email passwords without a problem. They should not hide the bills or their wallet. If they do, they've got something to hide. <BR>Now what do we WS's do? Simple. Once we know the answer, lay off. We probably know our spouses body language. We know the symptoms of a deceiptful spouse (privacy, defense through offense, etc). Once we see these, we know what's going on and we must stop denying. Keep plan A'ing and let the affair die it's natural death. <P>The reason we're Plan A'ing is that they cannot resist the temtation/addiction. We need to have strength for our marriages since our spouses were not strong enough to resist. <P>Best wishes and God bless.

Hi,<BR>Its me, Wounded One again,<BR>That was really good advice you just gave above. We do know one another's email passwords ang things but I did have to actually remove the wallet from his trouser pocket. I do know that things are still going on so I guess I don't really need to snoop anymore. I know that if I can stop snooping then he will probably respect me more, and maybe if he feels that I cou;d trust him again, then maybe he'll be more likely to consider ditching her and giving our marriage another go....who knows. Its really hard to break the habit of snooping once you've started isn't it? But I'll try really hard. Anyone else out there still snooping? <BR>

I am, but I'm thinking about taking the monitoring program off my computer. All it does is add more pain. Everytime I think things are getting better I find out that they aren't.

You snoop because you know the truth. The only reason I advise to stop snooping is to stop hurting yourself. It hurts to find some of those things sometimes and it's not productive. <BR>They say that a WS wants to get caught. My theory is this: It's the same laziness or weakness that makes them not want to fix their marriage that causes them to leave a trail. Quite honestly, if I was selfish enough to get caught up in an affair, I would be able to completely cover my tracks. <BR>I truely beleive that Plan A is a waiting game. We're in limbo - a holding pattern. It stinks for us, but we're not in control of the marriage. We need to take control of ourselves and keep ourselves happy. The easiest way to do that is to avoid reliving the fact that our spouse is in an affair. <BR>We concentrate on no LBs, Meeting ENs, and taking care of ourselves. We can't make someone happy if we're not happy. This attitude will help us in the future - whoever the other person winds up being. The fog will lift some day (I'm not so sure in my wife's case), we need to make sure that we are there when it does.<P>I'd wish you luck, but it's all knowledge, patience and inner strength that will help us, not luck.

I think Mikenu said it best that snooping gets you - nothing. I snoop, but when you get down to it what happends, you get mad, start fighting with WS and that's it. It can help to see how far WS has progressed in their relationship, but there is nothing you can do without LB'S.<P>I have a story. We needed a new faucet a few weeks ago, my W said that she would go out and buy one. In the nine years of marriage, she has not bought one appliance. It took her two hours to buy this item. The store that she went to is only 10 minutes away. I saw the receipt, and it was bought one hour after she left the house. Well, where was she during the second hour. A few days later, my W and I got into it and I asked her if she had talked to OM, she said no. I brought up the night she bought the appliance and caught her in another lie. W said I was snooping. I told her I saw the receipt and the time was on there. It was on the table. She then got off the subject to tell me why it was my fault that she is cheating on me. That damm fog that's over her head.

Again, I think Mikenu nailed it again. It only hurts to find what you already know. I do think that WS's want to get caught. I found something in my W's wallet and confronted her about it. She got mad, told me she would never leave anything that I could find. Makes no sense that she said that, but a month later, I looked in the same place in her wallet, and again, more evidence. A month later.<P>If I was cheating on my W, There is no way #1 that I would leave anything in my wallet for my spouse to find. #2 - If my spouse was snooping on me, I would not leave something in the same place in my wallet unless I wanted to have her find it.<P>Unfortunately, I think my W wants me to make the move for D.<BR>It might come soon enough.

Hi Dino,<BR>Yes My H did similar things, suddenly volunteering, in fact insisting that he do the grocery shop at the local supermarket...I'm back in just over an hour when I go...he was gone two hours....or taking 1 1/2 hours to get fuel for the car....this was back in May when I'd only recently discovered the affair...I think he was finding ways to get out of the house so he could have 30 min. phone calls to her on his mobile. The strange thing is, she's married as well, so how she managed it I don't know...he was sending her about 20 text messages a day I discovered...they must have been arranging convenient times to phone. My snooping heas helped me to find out OWs name and phone no. He says that the husband of the OW has found out,,,but I think he may have told me that incase I thought of trcking him down and telling him. The company my H works for pays for him to have an apartmant Mon to Fri whilst he is working on business. He says he hasn't seen OW since March...but I really want to check that she isn't spending time in his apartment, telling her husband she is working away more than she really is (thats how they met...both worked together for a few months... but what will it achieve if I discover that she is sometimes staying over? I would mean that he's told another lie but that would make it even harder for me to know what to do... maybe I'd rather not know? This is awful isn't it. We shouldn't need to do this should we? At least on MB we can tellone another about our frustrations therefore enabling us not to LB at home. Will our WS ever realise what patient, committed spouses we are to put up with this and still want to keep them?

Wounded One.<P>It's tough.<P>My W birthday is Saturday. She is going out with her department tonight to dinner to celebrate. The OM will be there. I talked to her about me feeling uneasy about this, and asked if she could make this a lunch. (for some reason she is the only person who goes out for dinner on birthday, everyone else is lunch) she told be basically, too bad. That I needed to TRUST her. This is the same person who ran to the hardware store for two hours, that should have taken one hour a week ago.<P> Wounded One.<P>It's tough.<P>My W birthday is Saturday. She is going out with her department tonight to dinner to celebrate. The OM will be there. He works with her. I talked to her about me feeling uneasy about this, and asked if she could make this a lunch. (for some reason she is the only person who goes out for dinner on birthday, everyone else is lunch) she told be basically, too bad. That I needed to TRUST her. This is the same person who ran to the hardware store for two hours, that should have taken one hour a week ago. <P>But, you know what. There is really nothing we can do. It is awful that we have to go through with this crap. Unfortunately, my decision to stick around and wait till the fog lifts gets harder and harder each day. You know what, I know this sounds crazy, but the more my W does this stuff to me, the clearer my decision about D is.

Yes,<BR>The thing that really hurts me at the moment is that I don't know whether he has started seeing OW again. Originally, he said the PA ended at the end of March and that the only contact he has been having is over the phone. I would have been able to believe him if it wasn't for the fact that he lied about the phone calls to her and it was through me opening his cellphone bill that I discovered that he Was and STILL IS phoning her...Therefore if he could lie about this so easily, he could lie about whether he has seen her recently or not couldn't he? I have asked him in my best, calm, LB-free voice saying that it is better for me to know the truth because then I won't need to be suspicious and ask him questions. He still says he hasn't seen her since March. The last time I asked him was in July. Should I ask him again, or just leave well alone?<P>Wounded One

Wounded One.<P>I asked my W last week if she still talks to OM. She said no. I brought up the appliance situation right after, and she knew she was busted. My wife never lied to me up until four and a half months ago when this whole mess started. She lied to me in the beginning, middle and now. I look back and ask myself why I even ask, it's probably a lie anyways. <P>Would I ask, no. If he lied before, he'll lie again. I know it's hard because al of us want a truthful answer, but we are talking to people who are in the fog.<P>Dino

Wounded one --<P>here is how my W reacted to me asking too much... she just started agreeing with everything I said. That is almost as bad as lying about everything.<P>What I am finding with her now though, is if I am suspicious about something (out in the open, not from snooping), and ask calmly without accusing, she does not take it as a LB. I think she still lies to me, but I wonder if her knowing that I am suspicious of her will affect her future decisions. probably not, since my feelings are not her main concern.<P>not much advice, just relating some of my experiences...<BR>

I'm in the same situation. I've been plan A'ing pretty well and very seldom LB, but I have trouble fighting the urge to snoop. I have access to my W's voicemail at work and I know that is how OM contacts her outside of work. I check it quite regularly. Sometimes I listen to the messages, but usually I just check to find out if there any. No one would leave her a VM after work except him. If she knew I was doing this, she'd be furious, but it my only lifeline to the truth.<P>I have alot of info about the A and OM, but I've revealed very little to my W. No need to tip my hand and it wouldn't make a difference anyway. I've told my W I know more than she thinks. She wanted to know what else I knew, but I told her it doesn't matter. Revealing everything I know will not make her admit it or end it. It will only piss her off and make her more careful. I'll hang onto the info I have in case I need it in divorce/custody proceedings.<P>I guess what I'm saying is be careful about the snooping and don't get caught. You'll know by your spouse's attitude and actions if the A is still going on or starting to die out. Look for signs of withdrawal or signs of the "fog" lifting and then plan A your [censored] off.<P>sad dad