I seriously want to know the answer to this: <P>*If* I am going to try Plan A with David (which I am debating)...<P>If he comes over to spend the night, do I let him sleep in my bed?<P>Do I let him drop by any time with or without calling?<P>Do I do his laundry?<P>I get the depositing love units thing, and whenever he's come over so far (we really haven't gone one whole day without seeing each other) I've offered coffee, been kind... but when the battery on his car went dead last night and he came her with our daughter, I didn't want him to sleep in my bed. We are suppose to be **seperated**, and this totally confuses me.<P>Advice??<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>Broken heart, broken promises, broken spirit... let me rest!

Sheryl,<P>All the books I've read say to continue to be intimate with your S unless you don't want to. Only one book - Tough Love - didn't object to this.<P>I was still intimate with my H the first time we were separated. This time, he hasn't tried...I actually tired to be friendly with him twice and he turned me down both times (once I was quite drunk and the second time I was a little obvious, but not blatant) <P>Steve Harley quote: Try to avoid doing ANYTHING that would make your H unhappy. But, you should feel ggod about things, too. If you want to sleep with David - do so. If you don't mind doind his laundry - do it. If you don't mind his dropping by without calling - let him. If any of this bothers you, find a nice and non-threatening way to explain it to him.<P>I am glad you two are seeing each other daily. It maintians contact, but lessens the pressure and you both need that right now.<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

My Dear Sheryl,<BR>Do a perfect plan A. Meet as many needs as you can. You need to refill his lovebank. There is a section on conflict - and Harleys say to work on meeting each other's needs, vs. resolving the conflict. The reasoning is that it is hard to be angry when the lovebank is full. And, I think this is what will help David get over his resentment.<BR>Put your needs on hold, and concentrate on his.<BR>TNT

Desiree,<P>Okay, so what if I don't want to and he <B>does</B>, won't that deplete his love bank? Plus, he has always said not to do it unless my heart is truly in it, and it's not... although I do love him and he is, as I've said before, gorgeous. I try, but he can tell if it's not heartfelt.<P>As far as the other things I asked, it doesn't *bother* me to do his laundry, or even if he drops by, but I would like some warning so I can fix myself up a bit... lately (while on vacation) I've taken to showering at 10:30 in the morning, and yesterday he came by at 9:30, so you see my problem... <P><B>trustntruth</B>,<P>Yeah, okay, you can take some credit here... I read what you wrote on my H's thread... I will try, but I still don't think it's fair... I won't do it begrudgingly though... I'll give it an honest effort.<P>By the way, what's a <B>perfect plan A</B> compared to a regular Plan A?<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>Broken heart, broken promises, broken spirit... let me rest!

Sheryl,<P>I've been plan-aing my @ss off. The net results-zero. However since W is still involved w/OB I can't expect anything, I do believe there will be the residual effect in the future when EMA ends.<P>I would love to be intimate w/R, I think that would help my situation. She refuses it would be cheating on OB.OUCH!!<P>I am still trying to meet what needs I can. Sehe knows this and takes advantage of me. I do believe should I go to plan-b those needs will be missing. OB won't be able to fill them soon afterward relationship will disolve. At least thats what the book tells me.<P>Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> page I think there is a questionare I'm not sure I haven't been there in a while.<P>Keep in plan-a even if it seems your not getting ant results. The book says it will pay off.<P>I says if your horney and you want to go for it. If not then don't.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Sheryl,<P>You've always offered me such wonderful advice I'm afraid I will fall short here. I think you must do what your heart tells you to do. You know, deep down, what is right. If you want your marriage to work then you must "deposit love stuff" (not sure of the correct terminology). But you've been through a lot, I wouldn't blame you if you were ready to toss it. Truly, I think I agree w/ you that you come to a point where you have had enough. <P>You sound a lot like myself. I get fed up w/ his s*&t sometimes and am ready to go it alone but truly, I want my marriage to work. It's hard when you feel like you are the only one giving and giving and giving. I know I was selfish when I had my affair. It was horrible. But I would do anything to save my marriage but can not do it alone. <P>I do agree w/ Harley's message but I also believe you must have some self respect or else your spouse won't want you anyway. <P>You know what to do. You can do it.<BR>

NSR's thread about his second counseling session with Steve Harley might give you some ideas about plan A. A perfect plan A isn't exactly a practical plan A. It is impractical, it is not doing what you feel, it is doing.... it is an action. <P>I know Jim's story and yours are totally different, but the idea of what to do is the same. Do it as long as is possible. <P>It's the only thing you can do at this point. <P>Not talking to your husband, and emotionally detaching will not help your marriage. But letting go of lovebusters, defending yourself, and all of the negatives will harm your marriage. <P>I'm afraid, Sheryl, 3 wishes isn't going to be the one right now to pull this thing out of the mud. It's you. You've rested and waited long enough, now get to work.<P>We'll be here to help you.<BR>TNT

Plan A is NOT about depositing love units - it is about NOT Love Busting. The defining rule for Plan A is the Rule of Protection. We in Plan A are showing our spouses that the marriage is a safe, comfortable and wonderful place to be.<P>Meet emotional needs if you can, but the thrust of Plan A is to avoid any behavior that can be viewed as a Love Buster by your husband.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P>

You are correct, Terri! <P>And Sheryl, I think you will be the first former betrayer to implement plan A. <P>I'm pulling for you, and praying for your strength.<P>TNT

Sheryl,<P>I think I have to disagree, respectfully, with terri about the depositing of love units...<P>According to Steve Harley (in my second session)... it does require these deposits!<P>As far a doing <B>anything</B>... NO!<BR>Sex... that's up to you...<BR>Laundry... or other things... yep... if you can! <P>See my new post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/011323.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101</A>.<P>Jim

Bill,<P>I don't know if Plan-anything is the right thing to do... as TNT pointed out, I may be the first former betrayer to do this, and I never ever thought I'd have to do it... you'd think it would be the other way around! I'm sorry things aren't going better for you though... You work so hard!!<P>AnnR,<P>You never fall short... thank you for your thoughts and advice!! I will do what my heart tells me... and it won't be easy. Also, we do sound alike... and yes, I can do this...<P>TNT, my dear friend who <B>always</B> lays it on the line! You'll be happy to know that my wonderful therapist also layed it on the line for me tonight. She's patiently listened to me for three weeks, and *this* week (week 4) she actually told me something she's noticed about *me*... I had to stop and listen (I respect her so much) and realized a few mistakes I've made with David, aside from what you all tell me here.<P>I do disagree with the idea that I have to do this alone. I still need the rest, even if I seem strong. I'm not, I assure you. I will work at depositing the love units and not love busting, but that's as far as I can go. I cannot actively do anything else right now. Let me ask your advice about something... David was invited to a church party on New Years Eve, and I also asked him to come here. He is torn, because he doesn't want to hurt his friends feelings (the man who brought him to the church in the first place) but he knows it is a sore point with me. He has asked my advice. What do I say to him? (By the way, I told him to do what he thought was right, it was up to him. I did say I wanted him to be here, but it was totally up to him).<P>terri,<P>More confusion for me... hmmm... I'll have to go back and read the Rule of Protection. <P>NSR, <P>Thanks for your input too... and I'll go see your Plan A - 101.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>Broken heart, broken promises, broken spirit... let me rest!

NSR, not to be argumentative, but the first thing you must do in Plan A is eliminate love busters, per Dr. Willard Harley in Surviving an Affair. No love units can be deposited in a love bank which is closed to you because of hostility, nor can love units fit in a love bank that's been filled by an OP. Yes, deposit love units <B>if you can,</B> but you will likely not know if they have been accepted or not, as a betrayer still in an affair is decidedly close-mouthed about how good <B>you</B> may make him/her feel.<P>I'm not saying Steve is wrong, but the Plan A described in his father's book emphasizes that it is unlikely that love units <B>can</B> be deposited when an affair is ongoing - and that Plan A is founded on the Rule of Protection.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P>

terri,<P>I think we really are in more agreement here than comes across in the replies... <P>Eliminating Love Buster's is unquestionably the most important thing... no ifs ands or buts...<P>Though my W still has 2 love banks one for OP (high right now) and one for me (very low right now.) I think what Steve was trying to tell me (without conflicting with the content of the book) was that... it doesn't matter whether <B>I</B> recognize the deposits into my W's Love bank for me... there may be a delayed effect in her recognizing those deposits... if I am consistant on (1) no love busters... and (2) demonstrate to her a change in me.<P>I think Steve saw something in my situation (pending divorce... hug from W at Christmas... whatever)... where the "rule of protection wasn't enough"... where the "rule of care" needed to supplement the no love busters!<P>If you check out the top of page 77 of SAA there are a few quotes there... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>At the same time, if the (wayward) would let the (betrayed), the (betrayed) would try to meet the (wayward's) emotional needs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I(Willard Harley) still wanted the (betrayed) to offer to meet the (wayward's) needs anyway, just in case the (wayward) decided to give the (betrayed) another chance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really marvel at all you've been through terri...<BR>Very respectfully,<P>Jim

Ahhh, an opening for K to share... <P>You're both right (terri, NSR)<P>Plan A's primary goal is the elimination of lovebusters. If you don't do that, any effort you make into meeting needs will be completely wasted. And in lots of affairs where the spouse is withdrawn and "in love" with the OP, you have to pick your areas to deposit "love units" carefully. You want to focus on meeting needs that the OP can't meet---and that usually centers around "family committment" (being good with the kids).<P>In NSR's case (and they're all individual), it appears that there are openings for him to deposit love units with his wife. So he should take every advantage of them. terri: you do the same with your husband, to some extent.<P>Now Sheryl---what would constitute a "perfect" plan A for you.<P>1. Elimination of lovebusters---do this through your husband's eyes. Better yet, if he's willing to fill out the lovebuster's questionnaire (available on the site), you'll have it in writing. Make concrete plans to eliminate the top ones first. Stick to it---consistancy is important. Think of every chance you have to "blow up" as an opportunity to exhibit new behavior---it's a challenge.<P>2. Meet his important emotional needs. BUT, doso only using the Policy of Joint Agreement. If you feel like you're making great sacrifices to meet his needs---DON'T!!!! What that will do is set you up to drain your lovebank dry (resentment). It's a "quick-fix" that will probably bring you closer to exhaustion and divorce sooner.<P>Let's take the "sleep in your bed" example.<P>If you're OK with that, then by all means, do it.<P>If you're not, try to articulate to David why it makes you uncomfortable, and offer suggestions on how you would be willing to meet his needs for that (try to set up a "win-win" situation). Brainstorm, negotiate, and come to an agreement. Even if you're not able to do this, express a desire to meet his needs---if you convince David that he's the most important person in the world to you, you will build the love you're missing.<P>And that's the point of Plan A.

Hi All:<P>I have a question. I keep getting confused with the use of Plan "A" and Plan "B". Most of the time they don't seem to fit the Harley definition. <P>Plan "A" means that the betrayer is NOT supposed to have contact with the OW/OM while staying with spouse and trying to work things out. Plan "B" is where you separate until the betrayer decides to do a Plan "A", right? <P>So, if you are separated, that's a definite Plan "B", isn't it.<P>I'm trying Plan "A". I have had no contact with so-called OW for 14 months. None whatsoever. My W slowly returning to normal but sometimes "other" family matters get in the way and slow recovery.<P>Last questions. How long do you do Plan "A" before you consider it done. I don't ever expect to have any contact with OW. Does that mean I will be in Plan "A" forever? How do you know when you are finally recovered? I guess if I have to ask that I must not be.<P>Any insight?<P>PW

sheryl,<P>my nickels' worth:<P>is david actively having sex with OW? no.<P>do you guys both like sex? presumably yes<P>does sex always mean missionary-style intercourse? no<P>here is what we have found and even discussed:<P>1) we want to make our relationship work<P>2) we both have sexual needs<P>3) we both think that 'having sex' and 'making love' are two different things, but that married people can agree to 'have sex' to relieve tension, as long as they both agree and see it as an enjoyable thing.<P>so, my suggestions, based on what has been working for us:<P>a) get some massage oil (you don't have to go to a sex shop, try a health food store or drug store)<P>b) offer/agree to give each other non-sexual pleasures, feet rubs, neck rubs, back, whatever.<P>c) don't have sex as a goal, just meet the need for contact comfort<P>if you wind up making love or having sex, fine, you ARE married after all...<P>if one of you wants it and the other doesn't, how about just 'pleasuring' the one who does?<P>this is what has worked for us, even after my hyssy fit...<P>on the other hand, you can just let "the world" win, watch porno, masturbate and go your separate ways.<P>ok, so that was a dime's worth, I really feel strongly about the need to meet each other's physical needs, since I failed so dismally for 10 years with my h., because of prudish Victorian thinking<P>love to you both.<BR>lizzipearl<P>------------------<P>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR><p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited December 30, 1999).]

To Patiently Waiting:<P>The goal of plan A and plan B is a commitment to the marriage and for both parties to employ the basic concepts, on the first page.<P>If you have no contact with OW, that is wonderful and great. But it seems your wife is not committed to the marriage....<P>Please read NSR's post on plan A 101, and read the basic concepts, and decide where your relationship is with your wife. Plan B certainly doesn't seem to apply in your case.<P><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited December 30, 1999).]

TNT:<P>I guess my problem is that my wife is NOT committed to My plan. She seems to want to stay married, but she is not ready yet to do her share. So I am trying for both of us. I know that is wrong and that it won't work in the long run, but at least for the moment it keeps us together and that's a start. <P>over 15 months ago she when to live with an OM for about three weeks (not physical) and she took most of her stuff with her. To this day, she has not brought anything back from the OM house. She says it doesn't matter and she doesn't need that old stuff anyway. I think she's just embarrassed and doesn't have the nerve to go get her stuff. But it does make for tension around the house. Especially every time I go into the closet to get my clothes and see that her side is empty. She also can't bring herself to be physically intimate yet. Says she needs more time and that she may never get "that" feeling again. So I just wait and try to do all of the right things, but sometimes it gets pretty depressing. <P>If I get depressed or sad, she says "What do you have to be depressed about, I'm the one that's hurting". I try to get her to talk about "our" situation, but she always skirts the issue and if I push, she gets volatile. So that's why I sign myself Patiently Awaiting. I just don't know what I'm waiting for.<P>PW

To All,<P>Here's what I'm gonna do... I'm gonna love my H in the best way I know how (we did the emotional needs/lovebusters Q's, but he stopped because he got upset, so I can only guess at his most important needs - one of the top 5 being sex, so...) I will make love to him, let him sleep in my bed when he's here(and do my damdest to act super-interested), keep my bedroom and bathroom spotless (another need, we talked about that one), fix myself up if I know he's coming, and invite him often...although I still need some "me" time. <P>TNT must not have come back to answer my question, so I will pose it again to all:<P><BR>David was invited to a church party on New Years Eve, and I also asked him to come here. He is torn, because he doesn't want to hurt his friends feelings (the man who brought him to the church in the first place) but he knows it is a sore point with me. He has asked my advice. What do I say to him? (By the way, I told him to do what he thought was right, it was up to him. I did say I wanted him to be here, but it was totally up to him).<P>Thanks...<P>As an addendum: Patiently Waiting is another former betrayer to impliment Plan A... so I guess I'm not alone there... however, it doesn't seem to be having much effect! I like your name Patiently Waiting, and I admire your desire to repair your marriage. How does you W live without clothes and shoes... egad!!!!<P>Had put "patient love" instead of "patiently waiting"... another edit... egad, again!! <BR>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>Broken heart, broken promises, broken spirit... let me rest!<P>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited December 30, 1999).]<P>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited December 30, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited December 30, 1999).]

<B>K</B>...<BR>terri and I weren't fighting... <BR>We really are in agreement... and what you said just proved it... <BR>Thanks Dr. LB...<P><BR><B>PW</B>...<BR>Marriage Builders is for anyone whose spouse is NOT committed to them!!!<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> is not meant for your W to "join in with you"... necessarily... but an approach to gradually work toward bring you and your spouse together... over time! Yes... do click <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>HERE</A> to read about both Plan A and Plan B...<P>At your stage... only <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> makes sense! It works whether the spouses live together or not... it's just harder after a physical separation.<P>Sheryl... I know you don't mind... <P>Jim