I fear that I found this website too late. I posted some of this on EN site, and probably did not phrase my question well. Plus wrong place. And I desperately need some input. I feel like time is running out.<p>When does fog lift? How long? years, months, days? What to expect? <p>The OW is soon to have a permanent place in my H life, actually in his house. <p>I was married for 10 years and we have three children under the age of 9. <p>We had been in marriage counseling on and off for several years. I feel like I personally made a lot of progress, and my counselor says now that IHHO he did not make equal progress. I was not a good communicator, unless I was angry and was clearly not able to meet his SF needs. Also, he wanted me to spend more time at home (though he spent more time away, this meant he did not have to be home as often and when he was, I would be there). We got into a competition thing. None of this healthy.<p>In early 2000, we both knew and admitted things were bad, but didn't do anything about it. I made the biggest mistake of my life by having an EA/PA with a co-worker.
Yes, I experienced all of the "fog," and withdrawal -- it took some time for us to quit communicating -- he always had a legitimate reason to call me (BTW, NO CONTACT is so essential), etc. I never considered leaving H for OM, but did consider leaving him for EN issues (I just wish at the time that I really understood what that meant.)<p>My H evenually found out. We spent the morning crying and I told him that I didn't want to lose our M. Now, I can admit that I was still in a fog and bargained on the fact that I had to see OM for business reasons. We made an appointment with our counselor and said we wanted to work things out. <p>Within a couple days, he called a woman he had dated along time ago, with whom he had been in contact since 1999 (completely unbeknownst to me), and made plane reservations to meet her out-of-town.<p>OW was married at the time, with teenage children, and lived about 4 hours away. H and OW start a relationship, and see each other about every 3 weeks (H says not physical for a few months) and talk on phone and email 3-4 times per day. She didn't file for divorce until 3 months after our filing, and as part of her settlement she got a smaller share of custody of her children.<p>Same period, we are in counseling for months. He never admits OW. I have no suspicions. H says problems are all a result of my A. I am so busy dealing with guilt and recriminations and dealing with HIS LB that I play defense. By September, I think things are getting better -- they weren't, he just withdraws and doesn't verbalize cricisms to me. I guess he was saving that for the OW. <p>In late 2000, H comes home from a "guys-only" trip (with guess who) and asks for a D. Says he can't forgive me. We live together through holiday, but tension in house (remember I don't know LBs) is unbearable. He won't go to counseling except to ask how to tell the children. I am beside myself with grief. He drinks and embarrasses me constantly in public. <p>He is to move out in January. Find out he is flying out-of-town again in January. I am suspicious, and file for divorce while he is gone. He comes home and moves out. I go out with someone, honestly would have gone out with anyone. <p>D-day, February 2001: He tells me he is taking a Friend to a public event. Won't tell me her name. I find out later that she was still married and living at home, while he is here introducing her to everyone as his girlfriend. <p>Once I get his phone bills, i realize the length, depth and intensity of A. I can read the JUST FOUND OUT letters -- and can still curl up and want to . . . die, be struck by lightening, you all know what I felt.<p>We attempt reconciliation shortly after this, but he walks out of counselor's office (literally) when she tries to get him to acknowledge his reponsibility in this -- he can only continue to blame it on me. In other words, no remorse.<p>Divorce long and nasty. He tells people D my fault and he only starting seeing OW after he moved out (lie). I found out of one other affair during process -- he still won't admit. That doesn't seem to matter to me now.<p>In fall, OW loses her job. Spends her time driving back and forth between being with her children (sometimes) when she has them, and having dinner on table when he gets home. <p>H tells me this week that she is giving up custody and moving here. "She puts me first," he says. (It makes me sick, I say). She takes care of him, he says. My traditional counselor says it will never work, but if H throws OW over, he becomes the "bad guy" -- and that is BIG issue for him. After all, look what they sacrificed so far to be together. And he says, "she has nothing and no one, how can I leave her." (WHAT ABOUT ME, I WANT TO SCREAM. I HAVE YOUR THREE KIDS!!)<p>Me? He knows that I would have him back at any time (with the right conditions), and has known all along. Not yet over for me. But all I have done for a year is LB. Forgive me, Plan Aers, but I didn't know. But I know that he still loves me, or so he says. <p>Meanwhile, they have a 1.5 years of rekindling their great romance. He tells me that he knows he is in over his head with her, and that he is being put in a situation where he will have to marry her. And he doesn't know what to do. But he seems unwilling to do what is "right".<p>I have met someone who does all the right things, and makes me feel are the right things. But I got married for life, and he is not the father of my children. If there is any chance, I would work it out. I can put the A behind me if he can put me first. <p>Is it fog? Is it true love? <p>I have an appointment with SH next week. Any experiences on starting Plan A really late? Is it too late? How do you do Plan A if they don't live in the house? <p>HELP ME PLEASE, my new friends.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: isitpossible ]<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: isitpossible ]<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: isitpossible ]</p>

isitpossible,
Welcome to MB, follow the links below to learn about MB. You have come to the right site to try to save your M.
When does fog lift?
When they start willing to work on M and learn how to fall in love again w/ you. Meanwhile there are occational ray of light lifts the fog a bit.
How long? years, months, days?
Depend on your love history w/ H and how deep it is.
What to expect?
Roller 'Coaster ride of your life.<p>Good that you have Steve, you are going to need it. In short, you do plan A to 'cease fire in your cycles of "revenge A". There is no guarantee that your M will be save but when you are done with it you will learn your past mistake and not to repeat it again.<p>One question that you have to ask ... are you willing to work to save your M ?. It seems that you are starting A yourself w/ someone. Don't kid yourself, stay away from anyone if you want to save M. You want to show change that is the first thing you could do to stop the cycle.<p>Good luck

I am willing to do the work, but my hangup is that I want to be met halfway -- he has to be willing to change and make amends too. That is what my traditional counselor has said that I should expect, given that during the marriage I carried the weight of keeping it together. But, trying this new approach, is that realistic? Should I "carry" the relationship?? <p>Yes, I am definitely in an A. Though I am not sure that I feel like I should term it that way. Maybe I am bargaining. You are telling me to stop relationship with the other man. Now. Period. Please comment! Is this what the first step should be? <p>Okay, so if I do, and nothing changes with H, I have thrown away a relationship that could amount to something, and if not thrown away, then certainly done irreparable harm. And I am so lonely, and overwhelmed with three small children.<p>Also I am reading other posts -- 6 months minimum of Plan A? I have been in "this" -- hell, roller coaster, tremendous growth process for a year. I am suffering still. I get maybe 4 hours sleep a night. Every few weeks <p>I have read "Distressed on Plan A." Where can I find more info on the application of Plan A? <p>Please comment on the validity of thes

I am willing to do the work, but my hangup is that I want to be met halfway -- he has to be willing to change and make amends too. That is what my traditional counselor has said that I should expect, given that during the marriage I carried the weight of keeping it together. But, trying this new approach, is that realistic? Should I "carry" the relationship?? <p>Yes, I am definitely in an A. Though I am not sure that I feel like I should term it that way. Maybe I am bargaining. You are telling me to stop relationship with the other man. Now. Period. Please comment! Is this what the first step should be? <p>Okay, so if I do, and nothing changes with H, I have thrown away a relationship that could amount to something, and if not thrown away, then certainly done irreparable harm. And I am so lonely, and overwhelmed with three small children.<p>Also I am reading other posts -- 6 months minimum of Plan A? I have been in "this" -- hell, roller coaster, tremendous growth process for a year. I am suffering still. I get maybe 4 hours sleep a night. Every few weeks <p>I have read "Distressed on Plan A." Where can I find more info on the application of Plan A? <p>Please comment on the validity of these, during Plan A.<p>1. No comments about OW ever.
2. Pleasant and friendly always.
3. Find out what needs you weren't meeting and work on yourself in those areas.<p>Can you list some other basic to do's or where to find them.<p>Should I be looking for ways or reasons to interact with him? By myself or with the family.<p>Here is one big question: If I am pleasant to be around and he starts thinking that "this" -- our changed relationship -- almost-divorced co-parenting works -- then I am afraid, no, terrified, that he will think this is the best path for our relationship. How will I move him from there to wanting to bring these new things into trying again on our M?<p>I know, lots of questions!<p>THANKS!<p>I will say that in June and July, he demanded that I quit seeing anyone, but he would even talk about reconciliation. He wasn't willing to apply those same rules to himself.

isitpossible,
Both of you are deep in the fog and still are. However I am glad that you found MB while there is a slight ray peek through your fog. I wonder what Steve will do with this double fog.<p>Follow the link of general welcome, you will see link to the description of plan A/B and LB.<p>You have to stop your A if you want to work on M. First you are still M, second how could you tell H that you love him while you are pledging your heart and body to OM ?. Why drag someone to your mess ?. I am talking about "breaking the cycle". One of you have to stop and show a good will, no expectation and no demand. Your H has asked you before, do it and show H that you could change.<p>In plan A basically you try to show to your H that you are changed or you are capable of changed. No LB !, no expectation ... kind of unconditional surrender. You lists the issue(s) that your H said about your M. Those are the basis for your plan A. Review H issue(s) and what are you going to do to fix it w/ Steve.<p>To show the change is a big bang, a shocker to your H. Write a no contact letter to your OM, mail it and give a copy to your H. Tell H that you are willing to work on M. No demand on his part. There is no gurantee that your M will be save but at least you will be a better person to start a new relation. Buckle up, average A life time is 6 months but could be as long as 2 years ... by then usually you have to do plan B.<p>Good luck.

Redhat, Thanks for your assessment. <p>I know that you are right about giving up other man if I want the marriage to work. I have been doing some more reading on Plan A, and knowing this will hurt your self-esteem, and going in with no expectations. I just feel so rejected over the past year!!! My stomach turns at just thinking of going back to the place where I don't want to get out of bed in the morning. <p>Let's first assume that I write the letter to the OM, and let my H see it. I know that I can do that. What am I waiting for: FEAR. ANOTHER REJECTION FROM MY HUSBAND and Fear that I would be weak and call him. When I end this relationship, I know it has to be over. <p>I know you have heard this, and hear it all the time. I am so tired, and I am so tired of being hurt, and watching him be happy with someone else. I know too many details of his relationship with the OW, and it just hurts, and hurts, and hurts. <p>You say 6 months to 2 years. I have to simply wait!!!! I guess you could say they have 18 months under their belt. So they could be in for another 6 months, at least. And what if he never leaves her? Is there anyway to tell if they are really in "true love"? <p>The big question here:
Should I then be creating opportunuties to see H? YES OR NO? And what kind of opportunities should I be looking for? With kids, alone, what?<p>Because I know from this past year's experience that any time I am around him, or see him, I ache for days, and think of reuniting incessantly. In other words, it is torture! Should I expect that pain of separation to continue? And the question for me is: can I live through another 6 months of hell? And can I put my children through seeing their mother so broken again? They know that I did not want the divorce. <p>I read other's posts. I am looking for some inspiration or success stories. Where to find?

isitpossible,<p>The answer to your user name question is: yes it is possible. But, I think you need to step back and think. Why? are you still barginning? Why? Are you having yet another affair, when you now know how much it hurts for a spouse to have an affair?<p>You clearly don't think much of the man you are having an affair with if you are still trying to reconcile with your H. <p>Are these statements and questions bothersome to you? I hope so. You see if you are to have any chance of recapturing or to be much more precise building a new marriage with your H, he has to know that you want to do this. Not by telling him, but by showing him.<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In April-May of 2000, I had primarily an EA with a "business partner." I didn't really try to hide it. It was truly to get H to wake up and notice me. I had started to lose weight (long before affair), and my business was starting to see some success. Yes, I experienced all of the "fog," and withdrawal -- it took some time for us to quit communicating -- he always had a legitimate reason to call me (BTW, NO CONTACT is so essential), etc. <hr></blockquote><p>Dear lady if there is anyway to drive a spouse away, then doing what you stated surely would do it. Now consider you are with another man, but you don't understand why your H won't leave or shows no interest in leaving OW. Hello! you haven't shown one bit of change yet.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There was A VERY BRIEF time (2-3 weeks) where I took my eye off my family, but I never really in all honestly believed that I could love any man on so many levels as I loved my H. I could never leave my family. I never considered leaving H for OM, but did consider leaving him for EN issues (I just wish at the time that I understood that.)<hr></blockquote><p>Your H could tell the difference in why you were considering leaving him? I doubt it. I am not sure what the VERY BRIEF time really means. Did you leave the family to be with OM?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>H discovered A when I just didn't come home one night after a huge fight with H. The truth is that I had already called off the A before that night, but blah, blah, blah, OM witnessed the fight, probably contributed to it, and the inevitable happened. <hr></blockquote><p>What can I say about this?<p>
isitpossible, my response so far sounds like a down right frontal assault on you, an attack if you will. Well, in a way it is. But not the way you think.<p>You see what I am trying to wake you up to is that YOU have had at least two affairs. You continued contact with OM#1 for sometime after your H discovered the affair, thus suggesting to him that the affair was still going on, even if it wasn't.<p>Now when you sit back and reflect when if ever have you SHOWN your H you were serious about the restoration of your marriage? I would suggest you never have. At best you have been willing to go "havesses" with him on taking the blame for your affairs and you perception of the marriage. You are in fact still barginning.<p>isitpossible, please go down to the book store and by Surviving an Affair by Harley. Or you can order it here although I don't know the proceedure. Read that book and you will see things you haven't seen yet. It may well save your marriage, but if it doesn't it will surely make your next one much better.<p>If I had to sum up the problems in your marriage the word that comes to mind is communications. Your statement <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I had primarily an EA with a "business partner." I didn't really try to hide it. It was truly to get H to wake up and notice me.<hr></blockquote> says all that was not said about the state of your marriage. Having an affair is not the way to heal a marriage.<p>So remember this, actions speak louder than words and if you want him to consider ending his affair and work on the marriage end your affair and then talk with him after you have read the book I mentioned. You can read it in an evening or two.<p>I do hope that something I said will help you and your marriage.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

isitpossible,
I am glad you are willing to work on your M or at least try to. That is all we do in here.
Let's first assume that I write the letter to the OM, and let my H see it. I know that I can do that. What am I waiting for: FEAR. ANOTHER REJECTION FROM MY HUSBAND and Fear that I would be weak and call him. When I end this relationship, I know it has to be over.<p>You have to you have no choice. Also you know your weakness, open up your cell bill, open up your password (email), open up bank/credit card statements ... change your phone# ... etc ..do ask for his help to protect your weakness plus ask him how to ensure his trust that your A is ended. He might ask you to call after mail/email is sent. Move to another state if you have to. Be honest to H and talk to him. Tell him no demand on his part, you need help.<p>I know you have heard this, and hear it all the time. I am so tired, and I am so tired of being hurt, and watching him be happy with someone else. I know too many details of his relationship with the OW, and it just hurts, and hurts, and hurts.
Don't you think he is not hurt by your actions too ?.<p>You say 6 months to 2 years. I have to simply wait!!!! I guess you could say they have 18 months under their belt. So they could be in for another 6 months, at least. And what if he never leaves her? Is there anyway to tell if they are really in "true love"?
Correction ... 6 month to 2 years after A exposed and you are doing your plan A. Not when they are together in their "fog". He might never leave her if she fulfill his EN(s) and he doesn't have any deep strong love history w/ you. Either way you will be better you and will be ready not to repeat your mistakes to your next relation.<p>The big question here:
Should I then be creating opportunuties to see H? YES OR NO? And what kind of opportunities should I be looking for? With kids, alone, what?
Yes, doesn't matter w or /wo kid ... to show H the changes.<p>About the pain and torture ... staying in love is intentional.<p>Look for TryingAgain member#11001 ... this is recent recovery ... each situation is unique and also depend on the "human factor" no gurantee.<p>You are in the good hand w/ Steve Harley, he is my MC too. He will give you advice and meanwhile you are doing the right thing by studying MB concept before talking to him.<p>[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

This is exactly what I need. Help waking me up. Yes, it does hurt to hear these things, but in comparison, well, it doesn't compare.<p>Just being a SLIGHTLY defensive -- I got into this OM relationship only AFTER I thought the marriage was over for him -- meaning, that I couldn't meet his needs. But then I found out there was an A/OW, and believed that this was something we could overcome. Once his A was out in the open, I was ready, he was not. There is no REAL justification here -- you are right, the fact remains that OM relationship hurt him. Now, I think, and desperately want to believe that there is a chance. I hear you -- no guarantees. <p>BTW, I never left the family to be with the 1st OM. It seems so long ago, and has no meaning to me now. And honestly, it could have been John Doe. I am so regretful about that situation. More than you can possibly imagine.<p>I am reflecting. You are right. I have not shown my H that I was serious about restoring marriage, and when I was showing him, he didn't believe me. I think his asking me for a divorce was a test. I put up with horrible treatment for about 3 months, and I cracked. He moved out, and brought his affair with OMW out in open once she left her H. The A is now really out and has been since April. However, he has convinced most everyone that they only started seeing one another after we separated. <p>I do believe that H and I have a very deep and strong love history together. But the more recent relationship is simply one of pain.<p>I almost know the answer to these, but need to ask anyway.<p>We have been in counseling, and I continue to privately see our counselor. She is considered "the best" in our town. Let me back up just a little. During that reconciliation effort in June-July, she insisted to me privately and to us together that b/c H had such strong control issues, that UNLESS he met me halfway, it would not likely work. In other words, we both had to give up other relationships, and recommit at same time. He wanted me to commit first, and with her counseling -- she told me that it would give H the upper hand, he would never let me live it down, and he would never change. My counselor has said that I was in love with my ideal of H, and his "potential" but not who he really was. I still believe in that potential.<p>Does this sound typical of a traditional counselor???? B/C I gotta tell you that what I am reading here, and hearing here, is RADICALLY different from EVERYTHING that I have heard from EVERYONE, including my minister, my mother, my friends, etc. Can or does traditional counseling ever support an approach like this?<p>Which leads me to next question. Thank goodness for this site, because I also gotta ask: how many of your friends are supportive of each of you becoming "a doormat" as I read somewhere. My three closest friends, who have been a tremendous source of support, think that b/c of H's control issues, that this is not a bad thing for me. Does any of this sound familiar? And how do you communicate this kind of decision with family and friends? And have any of you experienced their disapproval? <p>Sounds like bargaining here, but I really just want to know what to expect.

This MB is very different approach than "traditional ones" that did not restore most of M and worst of all it did not heals you when it fails !!!. I was in the despaired when I found out A and looking for, searcing for divorce.com to end marriage and stumbled this site. I pick it up quickly since I was disgusted already by "traditional approach" ; just make sure you are not falling apart as a human being but nothing to take the A by the horn. You do the opposite !, you show "unselfishness & unconditional love" while you are working on the issue(s) that cause unhappiness. There are more movement now toward MB, you see Dobson's tough love, Susuan Page's and others ... it is modified versions of MB. I beleive there will be more of those to come. These, including MB, are method to save your M. Some method might work best but I beleive that MB is the safest approach. I know if I apply Dobson's tough love it won't work for my WW, she claims that I am too controlling. With MB, you focus on the issues, very narrow, while taking cease fire. Sometimes you will feel like punching bag, doormat etc ... but you have to work on the issue(s) the end goal while no LB'ed. You could outwitt your SO if you know how to talk fogese and negotiate the boundry but when they push back you have to honor that. I would stop seeing your C and change it to MB. Again if it doesn't save your M at least it will prepares you to heals.<p>I do believe that H and I have a very deep and strong love history together. But the more recent relationship is simply one of pain.
Here is your hope. Recent ones could be fix w/ plan A'ng.<p>Does this sound typical of a traditional counselor????
Yes, stay way from it. It work if both party is willing, it never work for single effort. You have your turn on plan B ... to end A. Simply saying to H, I addressed all your issues, now let see if you value OW or I (plan B).<p>Which leads me to next question. Thank goodness for this site, because I also gotta ask: how many of your friends are supportive of each of you becoming "a doormat" as I read somewhere. My three closest friends, who have been a tremendous source of support, think that b/c of H's control issues, that this is not a bad thing for me. Does any of this sound familiar? And how do you communicate this kind of decision with family and friends? And have any of you experienced their disapproval?
My mom survived my dad's A w/ OC ! by applying MB even before MB !. She learned it from ancient chinese books !!!!. When I told he about it, she said nothing new, this is what you have to do to save your M. She did it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] For freind & family, show them the web site and tell them you love H unconditionally and want to give your best last shot. This is your M and your life, you do not need to justify it to them. My FIL & BIL supports me 100% and worry about my health and even told me they understand if I have to do plan C. I have not see anybody's objection they all understand it and support me. They just worry about my mental & physical health doing plan A and they check on me once in a while. We are not a doormat, we just want to focus on the issues for now in plan A and we have our saying on plan B and plan C of course. Also as long as you are not LB, the boundry is wide open and each individual will have to learn to negotiate.<p>Hope this help.

isit,<p>You ask very good questions. I don't have time to write all I would write to answer these questions, but I would strongly encourage you go to do Barnes and Noble or some other book chain and get the Surviving an Affair by Harley. <p>The answers are in that book. Many of them are in the material on this site. I am not qualified to judge your counselor.<p>But, let me ask you something. If the roles were reversed, would you want to see your H make the first real step to rebuilding before you pushed all of your chips into the middle of the table and played your cards? I thinks so.<p>There seems to be an order to these things. What you don't have to worry about is whether or not he gives up OW. You see you don't want him if won't. He probably won't consider it until you clean up your slate a bit. <p>Frankly, isit, if you have any idea that this OM is a good man, you are hurting your chances of a good relationship with him, by pulling him into an affair which is what he is having. You are married. Clean up this marriage. If it doesn't survive learn alot more about marriages and how to conduct them before bringing this man back into your life.<p>Right now, the odds are extremely high that your next marriage won't work. The statistics say that about 75% of the second marriages fail. Why? That is easy, people don't learn from the first and bring the same baggage into the second. Get the same result.<p>You know the definition of insanity don't you? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So go down and get that book today and read.<p>One thing is that while there seem to be a few others with an approach similar to Harley's, there are not many. For one thing his ideas about radical honesty seem to be unique. In my mind he has observed what you will see if you read here, the same stories keep coming up, because people on the whole really do react the same way to the same stimulus.<p>Dont' be offended if this seems cookie cutter or simplistic. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] It is simplistic, because most of these issue are really really simple and straight forward. Don't meet your spouse's needs?? There is very likely going to be trouble in the marriage. <p>So read and if someone else doesn't fully answer your question I'll come back with a more complete answer tomorrow.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

redhat, jl -- are you out there??? <p>Just spoke to the OWH tonight. <p>But first, had a good day trying out Plan A. Okay, I know it is no good til OM is gone, but I needed to test my resolve. Met for coffee to go over visitation schedule at my request. Gave love, support, conversation, admiration. No LBs. Went very well. Gave him present for helping kids buy me presents for my birthday. He was touched. We spent an hour together, even though we finished "business" in 20 mins. He said he didn't want to leave. I said why, and he said he couldn't tell me. I let it go. Later in day, H helped me out with sick child. He came to house to help before sitter got there. I was going to my office christmas party, and was dressed up. First time he has complimented me in months. He called me later about a toy and we are working together on Santa. It was so hard not to make remarks to some of what he said. But I bit my tongue and instead complimented him. BUT SEEING HIM JUST MAKES MY YEARNING STRONGER.<p>But here is my evening since then. <p>OWH said that OW announced to her D tonight that she would be relocating to here and would just be seeing her every other weekend. First, really, how does a mother tell a child this??? I REALLY DO NOT COMPREHEND THIS. Could someone explain this to me???? <p>This especially blows my mind because one of my failures as far as my H's EN, was his perception that I didn't put my family first -- he was less than supportive of my "career" and would have preferred that I have a job. And, I did work too much at times. For the record, I have truly learned my LIFE lesson on this -- regardless of my M or H's EN - my kids are first. period. my kids have needed me so much this year, and I have been there. and it shows. their teacher and counselors can all see the difference. I switched my position in the company (selling part of my business.) I have a much better balance with Work/Home, actually to the point that my work has probably suffered. <p>There is no way that OW can be meeting this EN of FC which I know to be strong for him. BUT!!!!!!!!!! How can he look over this lack of FC from her, and make it a "breaker" for us. YES, I AM VENTING. I AM SICK. I WANT TO THROW THINGS, I FEEL DESPERATE. <p>Tell me -- please tell me, and yell at me if you have to -- I feel like if she moves here, Plan A will be pointless for a reconciliation. Please, those of you who have seen WS MOVE IN with OP -- don't you feel like it is over? Worse, the D told OWH that my H and OW had in fact made an offer on a building site for a house and should know on Friday if they are getting it. How will he ever extract himself from this?<p>Am I supposed to pretend not to have expectations, or am I REALLY not supposed to have expectations? I want this to work. And I cannot see putting myself through more H*LL of giving him love and getting nothing in return. Of seeing them embark on their new life together. So you all are doing this, and saying, if it works, fine, if it doesn't fine. Is that right??? <p>Can you see how anyone could leave their children, relocate four hours away and give up very easily if my H would tell her to hit the road? She will not be an easy OW to get rid of should he decide to do so. <p>I am crying . . . This is so devastating . . .<p>Here is what I want to do: show him the letter that I have already written to OM, tell him it is his Christmas present. But I am dying to say that I will only send it if he won't let her move here. Please tell me how wrong this plan is. This sounds like a demanding LB. How do I handle this?????

isitpossible,
Good thing that you have appointment with Steve next week. He could explain it better to you. In plan A, no expectation at all, it is about you, you working on your issue(s). If it works we have a new loving & caring M if it doesn't work we have plan B then we could move on since we know that there is no hope of having caring&loving M with WS.<p>While in the fog, WS could do any imaginable actions that they would not normally do. This OW is a clear example. Their selfishness take the better part of them.<p>All info. comes from OWH, how realiable is it ?. Is OWH desprate to stop OW but can not ?. This is the impact of snooping, could drain your LB$ in no time.<p>It is an LB alright for demanding in return of ending your A. Since you are still legally M, your A should end regardless. It still sound lack of commitment to me.<p>while waiting for your appt., have you read MB concept ?, reading HNHN and SAA book ?. Vent here if you need too, there are plenty of ears listening.

First, my appointment with Steve is tomorrow (not soon enough, huh?). I have read everything on the site w/exception of all posts (obviously). Am buying books this a.m. I see my traditional counselor this p.m. and plan to talk with her about this approach. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?<p>OWH is not desperate to get her back. He was at first (before he know my WS name and how to contact me), but not now. Though I told him about this site, I don't see him doing anything. I am not sure how really he feels. How can you be married to someone for 14 years and not feel something, but his ego is very much hurting from this affair. I trust him, however. He is not giving me bad information. I see the point about snooping, but he is one of the few people that I trust to cry to about how I miss my H.<p>Note some timing here: My H asked me for a D and moved out 3-4 months before I knew she even existed. At that point, I knew only her first name, it was another 4 months before I knew much more than that -- I got the phone records, that is when I called OWH. My H and she had been having an EA/PA for a year by then. He was VERY good at hiding this. It probably helped that she was married, so he couldn't call her on weekends when she was home.<p>Please explain to me why you have said nothing about my H behavior and his responsibility in working things out. I feel like he is getting off scot free for all of the pain he caused me, and is still causing me. And worse, I am afraid that he would come back to the M, and expect me to continue with the "changed me" and not change anything about himself. Clearly from my earlier posts, you can see that our marriage needed work. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT, and that being an outcome? Let me piece this together, if I work on myself then if he is not willing to meet my needs, then I am strong enough to walk away and know that I did the right things? IS THAT IT?<p>Just so you know, my divorce should be final next month. Nothing I can do about that. <p>I want to talk to Steve and see some sample letters before I show to H. It will be hard to get through the holidays under these conditions!<p>RedHat, do most BS feel like it is over when WS/OW move in together?

isit,<p>So many things to say to you. First, thing is it true that you only give love to get love? This is not a bartering match here. If you love your H show it without regard to his reaction or lack of action.<p>Second, there is no need to discuss his behavior. You are the only one that you can change and you need to really and deeply understand this. You cannot change your H. He will have to want to. <p>However, if you change there is the chance that he will change if it is to his advantage. Let's get really cold hearted here. You are only now considering changing your approach to things because it is to your best interests to do so. You don't want to lose your H. <p>You acted for quite awhile as if you didn't want him, or care for him, or even wanted the marriage and he has responded in kind. Your change of action is due to what YOU want. Nothing wrong with this, it is very very normal. But you must understand that you are doing this for yourself.<p>Plan A is about working on yourself and changing those things about yourself that you don't like. In someways you have started. While you don't acknowledge it, your values were seriously skewed between work and family and H pointed it out. You finally decided to do something about it and your children are responding well.<p>Whether your marriage survives or not you need to do Plan A for yourself. You need to change how you view somethings, just as you did the family time issue. You need to make improvements on yourself. Your H will notice and probably has noticed. But he has also noticed that you have an OM in the picture. He is unlikely to do anything about things as long as he is there.<p>As for the OW not being Mother of the Year, your H doesn't care because they aren't his kids she is messing up. Now if he does marry her and she isn't good to the children from your marriage I suspect that she will hear about it. But that is way down the road.<p>Isit, just by reading your threads here you can see where many of your problems in this marriage come from. On your side there is a lot of self focus. You want things equal and they never are. You want him to meet you half way, but it is far too late for that. If you want this marriage, YOU are going to have to fight for it.<p>He may join you in the fight or he may not. It is his choice not yours or mine or anyones: not even OW. BUT!!!!<p>IF you get rid of OM, do a Plan A (which means no LB, and working on yourself), YOU will come out of this a much better balanced person and someone for whom the chances of a second marriage working will go up considerably. You will also be much happier with yourself. Yes, you made some serious mistakes as has your H, but you have learned from them and overcome them.<p>My point????<p>Do this for yourself. Do it for yourself respect. Do it for your children, they will be much happier if you are happy with yourself. But mostly do it because you come to realize that it is worth doing because it meets your ethical code of conduct.<p>Isit, Redhat and I are on your case because you are the only one that can help your case. You H has nothing to do with this right now. Even if you two end up divorced Plan A'ing him will give you great satisfaction and make your children's lives much better. You cannot lose by trying to save the marriage via making yourself a better person. GO FOR IT!<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: I can tell you this. There is nothing special about your OM. He is dating a married woman and it would appear doesn't have much respect for the institution of marriage. Something that I think you are developing in leaps and bounds.

isitpossible,<p>Read carefully what Just Learning tried to tell you, I could not put it any better than that.<p>You could talk to your C even suggests to visit this site. Hope your C could be better prepared to handle M problem.<p>Watchout with OWH ... at this time the only place to vent about your M problem is with your C, your family members, and here where you could do it safely. Stay away from any opposite sex talking about your personal problem. You have to protect your weakness.<p>Just so you know, my divorce should be final next month. Nothing I can do about that.
You should stoped it, delay it until you work on your issue(s). Steve will probably say the same thing, ask him. It is a psych. barrier that is too valuable to tear it down.<p>RedHat, do most BS feel like it is over when WS/OW move in together?
If you read other posting you 'll see it is not over until is over ... some even after Dv. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE COULD DECIDE THAT. It hurt and I wanted to die but I manage to survive. I try to be a better person & a better husband to rebuild a better M ... even better than M at its happiest moment. Fullfilling M, M with care & love that I know I could rebuild with my WW only if she allows it. When the time comes and I have to make a decision (I hope I never have to), I will move on to plan C - never look back - and bring my best to someone that will value it and treasure it the same way I do.<p>[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

I'll tell you about my day so far, but don't shoot the messenger. I know I'll get raked, but that is why I am here.<p>First, I found HNHN, but not SAA. As soon as I finish this post, i am ordering from the site.<p>I don't think that love is barter. Love just is. If H doesn't give me love in return (like now or for many months before or ever), that clearly has not dissipated my feelings for him. And I could tell you stories about MEAN and VENGEFUL things that he has done to me, and my love has survived. Maybe over time (Plan B I hear), I can go on and leave my love in the past. <p>YOU SAID:
However, if you change there is the chance that he will change if it is to his advantage. Let's get really cold hearted here. You are only now considering changing your approach to things because it is to your best interests to do so. You don't want to lose your H. <p>My response: (and by the way, how do you do those line things)
No, I am only considering changing my approach because I have just learned of a new approach. As part of my consideration about making another try, I am looking at the process, trying to understand -- I do not want to screw up again, looking inside myself honeestly to see if I have the courage that it takes, and looking at possible outcomes. I have never wanted to lose my H. I never wanted this, and he knows it and has admitted it. I had simply given up. <p>And in the 10 years of our marriage, I simply wanted my marriage to be better, and did not know how to make it so, given that he was never willing to change. We would go to MC and I would be there to see how to make him happy, and he would be there to see how to make him happy. My needs counted very little if at all.The changes came from me. Very willingly for many years. But the resentment started to build when I had three small children at home and no support. I MADE and HAVE CONTINUED TO MAKE many changes.<p>I can't kid you, I believe that I can continue to work on myself and not bring baggage into new relationships WITHOUT having ever done Plan A. My reason for Plan A now, is that I finally see a possible way to put my M back together. Is that enough to start with? Do I need to go in without expectations? If so, how do I get there? Get out your 2x4s and hit me here. I'm ready and I need it.<p>Let me also say that I do not believe that there is such a thing as a "conincidence." Things ONLY happen for a reason. The only reason that I even THOUGHT ABOUT giving M a final, last-ditch chance is that he called me a week ago Sunday, the first time in months, crying, saying that he missed his family and that he still loved me. (He later said that he loved me but was not in love with me, and that I took it too deeply). But there was this huge crack, or so I thought, in his heretofore, complete and total rejection of me. You have no idea how many times I tried to work on things with him. How many times I tried to show him. I failed in my consistency I now know. I probably just didn't give it enough time. And I did LBs. I tried being loving, and being coy, begging, being friendly. Nothing worked, and the legal battle over custody and money only exacerbated things.<p>And then, the very next day, b/c of some other things that we were dealing with legally, I stumbled across MB site. My H's call and finding MB, that has to be more than a conincidence. So here I am.<p>And I have to say one other thing: I have been doing a lot of the work on myself required in plan A. I have made tremendous strides emotionally, and in owning up to my mistakes. And dealing with the consequences and making changes that benefit me as a person and any SO that I end up with. am reading constantly. I am taking life slower. I am looking at who I am and developing my own interests. I am trying to understand my own EN, and how to meet others. I am a different person today than I was a year ago, and MUCH FOR THE BETTER. Am I there? NO! But the biggest issue remaining is my self-esteem -- in other words: don't I think that I deserve better? And how many more times do I have to have him reject me before I get a clue that he really doesn't want to work things out. I suppose the reason that I am at MB is I am further acknowledging that doing reconciliation, I wasn't doing the right things. I can learn and have learned from mistakes.<p>If you hear "self-focus" here, you hear it HERE, b/c I do not feel safe doing it anywhere else. My father is an alcoholic, I am the oldest of five children and the first person in my family to ever graduate from college. I have spent my life giving to others. It took me a long time to admit that I even had needs. Instead, I let resentment build up when they weren't met, even though I didn't communicate well, if at all. <p>Okay, but the most confusing news of the day.<p>I saw my counselor and she said the following:
She is familiar with MB. She agrees that in many situations that MB approach best and has used. She understands and believes how sincerely my desire to work things out with H. She saw me (literally) beg him. She has listened to me for months agonize over how to give him love while protecting myself from more hurt. But she says in THIS situation, and she has seen us on and off for 7 years, that at no time did he ever make a gesture of being willing to change. Even with counseling. That it has to come from inside. She thinks that if I do "plan A" and offer to work things out with complete surrender, is a bad idea. If H does try to work things out, that he will start with the premise that the only person who needs to change is me. Even when I have before offered complete surrender, in fact she often saw me give up everything important to me to satisfy him. Including going to law school. And it never mattered: it wasn't enough. Without my even asking the question, she doesn't think that there is "an ice cube's chance in hell" that if he moves OW here that he will EVER leave her. And if he does, it will only be because she cheats on him. Then, he will not learn any lessons about his own behavior, and continue to blame OP.<p>Counselor believes that this is the ONLY time I will ever have any opportunity to be clear with him about my issues with him, and if I don't set some boundaries about his drinking, his fidelity, his commitment to me and family, that I will never again have opportunity. And if he in fact returns because of an "unconditional surrender" on my part, that he will leave quickly when he finds out that I don't believe that all the problems are mine. I do believe that the only person that I can change is myself. I do belief that I don't want a marriage like I had before. I want a better marriage. <p>Now, what do I think? That I have come so far, and that I would like to share it with him. I would like to rebuild M and make it real again. And that I want a partner in that. I am afraid that I don't have the strength to try again knowing that the outcome is not only NOT guaranteed, but also NOT likely. <p>I hear you, and will go back and reread Plan A and what JL said about the purpose and focus of Plan A is really me. The only difference in what I am doing may be to 1) give up OM, 2)quit LBing him. I am not really afraid of failure (a possible outcome), I am afraid of THE PROCESS, and what it would do to me emotionally -- I cannot let my children see me broken again. They are each taking this hard, and are just recently at the point where they have started confiding in me, likely because they see me holding it together better, and I have created a safe environment for them to be angry or sad. <p>I realize that I am no position to defend OM, but he is a very good person. And I now realize that I am not being fair to him. When he went out with me, he really thought that my M was over, and that the D was only paperwork.

Isit,<p>Last post of the day. I think you missed my point about the Plan A. The only real point I am making is that you can only change you. You need to address the issues that you can address.<p>You mentioned that the WS called and loves you but is not "in love" with you. I hope you realize that this statement is so common around here that it is sort of a joke. Unfortunately it is a serious issue. But, it does open up a crack for you.<p>You could mention to your H that if he still loves you, then he is being very unfair to OW. Perhaps it would do you both some good to "suspend" the divorce and readdress the issues. If as your counselor thinks he won't change and sees no need to meet your needs, then you have your answer. Again, you can only change you. If however, he is willing to at least read a book or two, no commitments asked, then perhaps you two have a starting point.<p>Isit, I am not save the marriage at all costs kind of guy. I am give it your very best shot kind of guy. I believe there is more than one "soulmate" for everyone. More imporatantly a marriage should be something both partners enjoy, not just one.<p>So my points here are two. If there really is a crack and a chance having your OM in the picture is not going to help. In fact, it is very unfair to him. Second,if there is a crack in the wall and you truely want to give it a try, then do your best Plan A. But Plan A doesn't mean being run over. It means no LB's and mean working on your issues especially those issues that set the conditions of the marriage.<p>You can do no more. But it turns out this is a lot to do. <p>My advice is talk with H, and see if he feels like "suspending" the divorce. Is he willing to do some reading? THe OW will show up or she won't show up. From what you have relay from your counselor, this isn't about the OW. This is about two people who have married each other, and will need to make changes for the marriage to work.<p>It does sound simple doesn't it?<p>I know it isn't.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

isitpossible,
No you won't get raked. You are just being protective of yourself. There is A of yours that messing the issues up. We, BS, usually has very low tolerance of that. I commend you for your willingness to save M dispite all of the "cycle" that are hapenning. We go to plan A with out expectation of receiving anything in return, expectation of responses to our specific actions, in plan A, BUT WE DO EXPECT AT THE END WE COULD SAVE OUR M - the end goal. Giving A up w/o expecting H to response but you know that this is the right thing to do with the end goal of working on M and a way to "break the cycle".<p>I would not argue with you or your C or try to since you & your C is much closer the battle zone. Your C is a proffesional so talk to Steve about it tommorow. To muddy it more, it seems you are a giver that snapped.<p>Learn more about MB, read other posts and wait 'till you talk to Steve.<p>IMVHO, you still have to stop your A, you start it on the wrong note, dishonesty. Poor OM, you drag him here. I would still write the letter to OM, call H and tell him that you stop the A, the Dv and want to try MB and see his reactions. Remember you do not need to say or admit anything. Don't confront H about your information on the property deal or the moving deal.

Just in case you are wondering where I have been. <p>I spoke with Steve Harley yesterday. He did tell me that I was a case of "the giver snap." So you were right on, redhat. Don't imagine for a second that I believe this excuses or condones what happened. It does not. But it certainly gives me a heads up on what one of my big issues are: expressing my needs clearly and without angry outbursts. <p>He really helped clarify the fog, and helped me see how some of my behaviors had pushed H away. <p>His biggest concern is the TIMING. Divorce almost final being the timing issue, not the OW moving here. His first request was that I get H on the phone with him QUICK. That is happening as I am writing this. <p>He said moving in with OW often hastens the lifting of the fog. I told him about OM, and he asked me to think about whether or not it is an affair. He said that he did not think that NOW is the time to break up with OM. He asked me why I felt the urgency. I told him that I wanted to show H I was willing. I got the impression that he might want to "time" this.<p>Also, as far as helping to lift the fog, he said that I could not do it, that it had to come from a third party, something he reads, or SH. But that H would never listen to me because he is caught up with rationalizing. He defined the fog as allowing emotions to justify irrational behavior. I thought that was pretty interesting.<p>He also told me he was worried about the emotional toll of a Plan A on me given what I have already been through. He also asked me to complete LB? pretending to be H. Interesting, the act of filling it out was very insightful. It was immediately apparent of some things that I could change about my behavior. I am working on the EN next. <p>In the meantime, I have continued my no pressure, kind and considerate approach with H. He told me he was feeling pressure from OW about permanent commitment in order for her to move here. Apparently it was a two hour argument. <p>He confided this to me and asked me not to tell anyone. Is this forum considered telling? I don't think it is time to break it to him yet that this is not about me, but is about rebuilding our marriage. PLEASE COMMENT ON HOW TO HANDLE THIS. <p>I had "predicted" to him when he told me she was moving here, shaking my head in disbelief at his gullibility, "don't you see? she will have the trump guilt card over you. she will always be able to say to you, I gave up my children for you. you are getting yourself stuck, and you know you need to do what is right, and what is really in your heart." He said to me today (in shock -- and tell me, why can't they see the obvious, I know -- THE FOG), when you told me that, I wasn't sure that I believed you, but I can see her using that already.<p>He told me that he wanted to be "brutally honest" with me, and that he told her that she could move up here, but he wasn't making a commitment. However, that if she didn't move up here, for me not to expect him to call me for a date NEXT WEEK. He said it again and put the emphasis on next week. I maybe LB'd when I pointed out the obvious: IF SHE MOVES IN WITH YOU, THAT IS A COMMITMENT. AND I WILL NOT SNEAK AROUND WITH YOU. He said he knew that. (SHOULD I SAY THINGS LIKE THAT?)<p>He said that he knew I was ready, but the TIMING was wrong for him. He kept talking about TIMING, and that he might get there one day and he might never. He didn't want me to expect anything, but yes, he still has feelings for me. WHAT IS THIS FOGESE FOR and WHAT DO I SAY IN RESPONSE.<p>He also agreed to meet me for lunch with one of our children. <p>And you can bet that he isn't telling her about any of our conversations. <p>Normally I would have called OWH and told him this. But I will not, thank you all for the advice like that. You are right, I am vulnerable and needy.<p>Hey, please comment on the stuff above, and let me know what you think on my chances of even giving this a chance. Even Steve did not seem to think that it was a sure thing that I should even try, but he did agree there were huge cracks happening!<p>Do any of you have a story about the FOG lifting and if it was like a curtain rising, or sun shining so that it evaporates slowly. Either way, I would like to hear the story.<p>THANK YOU ALL.<p>[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: isitpossible ]</p>